00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.240
[Charming instrumental music]

00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:11.560
[Jen Camper]: When
I was a teenager,

00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:14.520
that’s when I first found

00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:17.120
Roberta Gregory and
Mary Wings’ comics.

00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:22.800
And I remember reading those
and just being transfixed.

00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.800
[Mary Wings]: I was very
tired of feeling hidden.

00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:27.800
I was very tired of
feeling misunderstood.

00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:30.480
I needed to speak
to other people.

00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.080
[Rupert Kinnard]: I started
creating these black characters

00:00:33.080 --> 00:00:36.200
and I was just super
into drawing

00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.200
the Brown Bomber...

00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:41.480
The Brown Bomber was
not only African American,

00:00:41.480 --> 00:00:44.760
but he was a gay superhero.

00:00:44.760 --> 00:00:49.760
[Jen Camper]: Defining ourselves
was an exciting thing for me.

00:00:49.760 --> 00:00:51.080
[Howard Cruse]:
Doing Gay Comix

00:00:51.080 --> 00:00:54.160
essentially was a turning
point for me artistically.

00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.040
The experience of
being totally honest,

00:00:57.040 --> 00:01:02.120
suddenly it’s a greater
chance for high voltage art.

00:01:02.120 --> 00:01:04.120
[Mary Wings]:
It’s so out there

00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:05.520
about something
that is so hidden.

00:01:05.520 --> 00:01:08.840
I was just drawn to doing it.

00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:10.520
[Alison Bechdel]:
I remember so clearly

00:01:10.520 --> 00:01:14.120
when I discovered
Gay Comix.

00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:18.520
All of a sudden,
here was this permission,

00:01:18.520 --> 00:01:21.720
and a roadmap for
exactly what I felt like

00:01:21.720 --> 00:01:24.000
I wanted to do in my life.

00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:27.720
[Paint splatters]

00:01:27.720 --> 00:01:29.000
[Meow!]

00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:31.400
[Charming instrumentals continue]

00:01:41.080 --> 00:01:43.080
[Ajuan Mance]:
The idea of creating comics

00:01:43.080 --> 00:01:46.000
that aren't really about
making people heroic

00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.080
is one of the
things that I think

00:01:47.080 --> 00:01:48.680
queer comics
have done the best.

00:01:50.960 --> 00:01:52.400
[Maia Kobabe]: I grew to
hate being photographed

00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.000
as a teenager,
specifically after puberty

00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.080
and it was because
I didn’t recognize myself

00:01:57.080 --> 00:01:59.360
in a photograph.

00:01:59.360 --> 00:02:01.040
But when you are
drawing yourself,

00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:02.760
you can draw yourself
however you want.

00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:04.760
And that is another
reason why I think comics

00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.720
is a media that is so
friendly to a queer author.

00:02:11.040 --> 00:02:13.040
[Ivan Velez Jr.]: You know
you’re gay, you’re lesbian,

00:02:13.040 --> 00:02:15.040
whatever you are,
your identity,

00:02:15.040 --> 00:02:16.720
all of a sudden you don’t
know how to be that.

00:02:16.720 --> 00:02:18.440
There’s no representation,
there’s nothing at all.

00:02:18.440 --> 00:02:20.120
No fairy tales even.
No movies.

00:02:23.720 --> 00:02:28.200
- As a kid, I was always
on the lookout for

00:02:28.200 --> 00:02:31.200
something that resonated with
my perspective of the world

00:02:31.200 --> 00:02:34.720
which was, you know, tough,
beautiful, kick-ass women.

00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:36.520
[Adventurous music]

00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:41.840
And so in the comics
those were the kinds of

00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.040
female characters
I was drawn to.

00:02:46.040 --> 00:02:47.160
Especially the villains.

00:02:47.160 --> 00:02:48.440
Like in Steve Canyon,

00:02:48.440 --> 00:02:52.120
the female villains were gorgeous
and powerful and exotic.

00:02:56.440 --> 00:03:00.800
And then of course there
was Hank in Brenda Starr,

00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:03.800
who was very
masculine appearing.

00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:06.080
So, I was finding
dykes in comics

00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:08.080
from a very early
age, I think.

00:03:16.200 --> 00:03:18.080
[Howard Cruse]:
When I was in my early twenties

00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:19.480
and had ambitions,

00:03:19.480 --> 00:03:22.160
I thought I would do
a newspaper strip.

00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:25.480
Comic books were
considered slightly lowbrow

00:03:25.480 --> 00:03:26.760
compared to newspaper strips

00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:28.480
‘cause everyone
saw newspaper strips,

00:03:28.480 --> 00:03:32.760
and people became
famous and rich.

00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:36.080
So that seemed like
a worthy ambition.

00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:38.080
Eventually I learned that uh,

00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.960
newspaper strips
were highly censored.

00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:42.040
[Horror music, spooky cackling]

00:03:42.040 --> 00:03:44.040
In the 50s there
was a big scandal

00:03:44.040 --> 00:03:47.040
over the horror comics
and crime comics,

00:03:47.040 --> 00:03:49.360
widely known
as EC Comics.

00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.720
Kids loved them.

00:03:51.720 --> 00:03:55.160
Parents hated them,
government people hated them.

00:03:58.160 --> 00:04:02.640
There was a book about how
horrible comics were for kids.

00:04:02.640 --> 00:04:05.600
There started to be
censorship in the air.

00:04:05.600 --> 00:04:07.640
The Comics Code Authority
was imposed,

00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:10.920
and any comic that was
displayed on a news stand

00:04:10.920 --> 00:04:14.320
had to follow a
certain set of rules.

00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:18.600
You could never show law
enforcement in a bad light.

00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.000
There could be no mention
of homosexuality.

00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.280
All sorts of things that were
designed to reinforce

00:04:24.280 --> 00:04:28.600
the most bland vision of what
American life should be like.

00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.600
[Horror music,
pages turning]

00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:38.600
[Rock instrumentals]

00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.160
Then when you had the
counterculture revolution,

00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:44.880
underground comix
would never have passed

00:04:44.880 --> 00:04:46.280
the Comics Code Authority.

00:04:46.280 --> 00:04:48.880
They were sold in general in
head shops, where they sold

00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:52.160
drug paraphernalia
and psychedelic posters

00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:55.840
and things that hippies liked.

00:04:55.840 --> 00:04:59.160
Anything you could think of could
be in an underground comic.

00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:02.040
[Rock music intensifies]
[Gunshots fire]

00:05:07.320 --> 00:05:11.000
They were full of stuff about
drugs and uncensored sex,

00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.320
because underground comics

00:05:12.320 --> 00:05:15.040
were only sold to
adults, theoretically.

00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.600
[Accordion plays]

00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:27.280
[Mary Wings]: We felt
very alone and isolated.

00:05:27.280 --> 00:05:29.000
Most of our parents
hated us,

00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.880
or would have
nothing to do with us.

00:05:30.880 --> 00:05:32.600
And we were
all living in secret.

00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:36.280
We started to read all
the underground things

00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:37.880
that were coming out.

00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:39.880
[Rock instrumentals return]

00:05:41.880 --> 00:05:44.000
I had seen Robert Crumb
comic books,

00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.560
which were really,
really disturbing and you know,

00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.280
an example of why feminists
would want to make their own.

00:05:52.280 --> 00:05:54.560
[Accordion plays]

00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:01.040
So, there was a
Portland women's

00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:04.920
bookstore and I happened
upon Trina Robbins,

00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:08.040
the Wimmen’s Comix.

00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:14.040
And I was so happy to see there
in Wimmen’s Comix was,

00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:16.320
“Sandy Comes Out.”

00:06:21.320 --> 00:06:25.600
And then
I was disappointed!

00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.320
It looked very
superficial to me.

00:06:28.320 --> 00:06:30.000
It's sort of as if,
one day she wakes up,

00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.920
she takes a karate class,
she sleeps with a woman,

00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:34.600
men can't come into her house.

00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:36.320
She's going to
wear overalls forever

00:06:36.320 --> 00:06:37.880
and never
shave her armpits.

00:06:37.880 --> 00:06:39.000
Goodbye, the end.

00:06:41.280 --> 00:06:43.600
And I thought, well,

00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.600
this has nothing to do
with what it really feels like.

00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:52.880
And I didn't know
what I was doing.

00:06:52.880 --> 00:06:54.560
I grabbed a Rapidograph pen,

00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.160
and I sat on a sofa
with bad lighting,

00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:59.760
and I just sort
of went at it.

00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.120
Come Out Comix is a very
simple story about a woman

00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.520
who gets attracted to
another woman and, oh dear,

00:07:17.520 --> 00:07:18.800
what are they
going to do about it

00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:20.520
and do they really
feel that way?

00:07:32.960 --> 00:07:37.360
I really wanted to do something
that showed all the emotion,

00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.960
all the sort of worry and trauma
that you have about coming out

00:07:40.960 --> 00:07:46.960
and all those things
about really being a queer.

00:07:46.960 --> 00:07:50.040
[Printing press rustles]

00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:52.960
I did have two friends
who had an offset press

00:07:52.960 --> 00:07:55.960
and they were two women
who ran a karate studio.

00:07:55.960 --> 00:07:58.960
So, we kind of printed
it in the off hours.

00:08:02.440 --> 00:08:04.120
I created Come Out Comix

00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.120
with absolutely no
idea of distribution.

00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:14.120
I'm not even sure the word
“marketing” had been invented.

00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.720
I mean it was sort of the
boondocks, the nowhere.

00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.400
It was the, the field was
open, it didn't exist.

00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:22.120
When I think more and
more about why I did it,

00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:23.400
it was just a gift.

00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.080
I wanted women to
have some things that

00:08:29.080 --> 00:08:31.840
mirror their experience,
that felt good.

00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.200
Cause most of us just settled
down into lives that are,

00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:37.840
you know,
pretty repetitive.

00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:42.200
And I wanted my lesbian sisters
to go on an insane adventure

00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:44.520
while they're sitting
in their arm chairs

00:08:44.520 --> 00:08:46.200
and they have to go
to work the next day.

00:08:47.800 --> 00:08:50.400
[Dog barks along to accordion]

00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:55.680
Come Out Comix came out of a
period of great transformation.

00:08:55.680 --> 00:08:57.680
Women were transforming
themselves,

00:08:57.680 --> 00:09:00.160
breaking barriers
right and left.

00:09:00.160 --> 00:09:03.040
It was a very,
very exciting time.

00:09:06.760 --> 00:09:10.720
I had no idea that I was going to
be part of such a big adventure.

00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:14.440
[Charming accordion continues]

00:09:22.040 --> 00:09:24.000
[Meggie Ramm]: I was in
the room with Mary Wings,

00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.400
Trina Robbins,
and Lee Marrs,

00:09:26.400 --> 00:09:29.000
and I definitely had
a panic attack.

00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.720
I remember us all sitting
on the couch together

00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.120
and them telling us how they
first got started in comics

00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:37.400
and how drastically
different it was,

00:09:37.400 --> 00:09:39.000
and it was just
so overwhelming

00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:41.680
because I was just so
grateful that these people

00:09:41.680 --> 00:09:43.400
had come before
and had helped me

00:09:43.400 --> 00:09:45.400
get to the point
where I am today,

00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:48.000
where I can make comics
about being a queer person

00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:53.400
and have people acknowledge
them and take them seriously.

00:09:53.400 --> 00:09:54.400
And without them,

00:09:54.400 --> 00:09:56.080
I don’t think I would’ve
been able to do that.

00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.960
[Breena Nuñez]:
I was born in San Francisco,

00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:02.360
and just knowing, like,

00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:05.960
years later that there was an
underground comics movement

00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:07.080
but there was also like,

00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:10.680
this critique initiated by like
women and queer folks,

00:10:10.680 --> 00:10:13.360
like to create
their own space,

00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.360
and to know that these
are like the footsteps

00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:21.040
that we’re walking in
for this generation,

00:10:21.040 --> 00:10:23.960
that’s something I don’t
want to ever forget.

00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:36.440
[Rupert Kinnard]:
When I was a kid,

00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:39.040
I got into so many
different comic books.

00:10:39.040 --> 00:10:40.720
I got into The Fantastic Four.

00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:42.120
I really, really
loved them.

00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:44.120
They were my
favorite comic strip.

00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:48.000
I drew Batman,
I drew Spiderman, Superman,

00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.000
and I drew them
well enough that

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.400
I gained notoriety in
the neighborhood.

00:10:52.400 --> 00:10:54.000
Oh, Rupert can
draw the Hulk,

00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.000
have Rupert draw the Hulk.

00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.080
[Groovy instrumental music]

00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.480
I grew up in Chicago and

00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.760
my hero in popular culture
was Muhammad Ali.

00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:12.160
[Announcer speaks,
audience booms]

00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:16.080
Muhammad Ali didn't merely
say he was the greatest.

00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:19.160
He said, “I am so pretty.”

00:11:19.160 --> 00:11:21.440
- He’s too ugly to be
the world's champ.

00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.440
The world's champ should
be pretty like me!

00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.440
[Rupert Kinnard]:
The degree to which white people

00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:32.040
hated his brashness
increased my love for him.

00:11:34.040 --> 00:11:38.120
One of the things that
struck me was his confidence

00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:41.120
during a period of time where
Black men were almost like

00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.040
not wanting to be seen,
you know,

00:11:44.040 --> 00:11:47.720
be literally the invisible man.

00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:52.120
Once I started becoming really
enamored of Muhammad Ali

00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.120
and his message,
it was like a wake-up call.

00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.400
I looked at these characters
I was drawing and I thought,

00:11:58.400 --> 00:12:04.600
my God, why the hell am
I drawing white superheroes?

00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:08.000
And there was a
certain degree of anger.

00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.320
The word that keeps
coming to mind,

00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:15.320
oddly enough,
is bamboozled.

00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:22.920
I felt that I had accepted that
the world of comics were…

00:12:22.920 --> 00:12:24.600
were white.

00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.320
And that led me to
create Superbad.

00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.280
He had this giant ‘fro that
was designed to strike fear

00:12:32.280 --> 00:12:34.880
in the hearts of
every white person.

00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:39.280
His costume was the
Black Liberation flag colors.

00:12:39.280 --> 00:12:43.600
It was the very beginning of my
comics for me being cathartic.

00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:45.560
[Pensive piano music]

00:12:54.280 --> 00:12:56.160
I decided I wanted to create

00:12:56.160 --> 00:13:00.160
a more whimsical superhero
that was more original.

00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:02.360
And I actually started
discovering the history

00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.960
of another boxer:
Joe Lewis.

00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:08.640
Joe Lewis always
struck me as more meek,

00:13:08.640 --> 00:13:10.320
more humble.

00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.920
His nickname was
the Brown Bomber.

00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:17.320
I started drawing these little
sketches of this character.

00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:21.000
He had these socks that went
up to right below his knees

00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.320
and a cape.

00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:27.600
I just became more and more
humored by the whimsy.

00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.600
[Playful instrumental music]

00:13:39.280 --> 00:13:43.880
I was at Cornell College in Iowa
and I was approached by

00:13:43.880 --> 00:13:46.560
the editor of the
school newspaper

00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:50.560
saying that they wanted
an editorial cartoonist.

00:13:50.560 --> 00:13:55.160
So, it was an incredibly pivotal
part of my whole career.

00:13:58.160 --> 00:14:01.040
All of a sudden, the
Brown Bomber became melded

00:14:01.040 --> 00:14:08.320
with this idea of editorial
content and it was campus life.

00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.320
So, I did comics
about the way

00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.640
men were treating women,

00:14:12.640 --> 00:14:16.600
kids who are pampered
by their parents.

00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.600
The Brown Bomber really
had morphed into like

00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.320
being a school mascot,

00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.280
but he wasn't identified as
a gay character per se.

00:14:26.280 --> 00:14:29.880
It happened my senior year where
I came up with the idea

00:14:29.880 --> 00:14:34.000
of these totally black panels
where the Brown Bomber’s

00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.880
contemplating being
in the dark,

00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:39.880
wanting to reveal who
he truly was.

00:14:39.880 --> 00:14:43.000
But he wasn’t sure if he
would be accepted.

00:14:47.160 --> 00:14:51.160
I actually had people come
to my dorm room and say,

00:14:51.160 --> 00:14:53.280
wow, I had no
idea all along

00:14:53.280 --> 00:14:55.280
you’d meant for the
Brown Bomber to be gay,

00:14:55.280 --> 00:14:57.240
that he,
that he's gay.

00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.160
And then there'd
be this light.

00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:01.640
They go, are you gay?

00:15:01.640 --> 00:15:03.040
And I have to say,
well yeah,

00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.080
I've been gay all along.

00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:21.400
[Sentimental acoustic guitar]

00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.680
[Howard Cruse]:
From the time I was eight or so

00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:30.680
and my father told me that
some people earn a living

00:15:30.680 --> 00:15:34.960
doing this drawing that I
was doing, that got my interest

00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:38.360
because the adults
that surrounded me

00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:41.640
in the little farm town,
Springville, Alabama,

00:15:41.640 --> 00:15:44.400
none of their jobs looked
terribly interesting and

00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:47.040
particularly the farmers,
looked like that was an

00:15:47.040 --> 00:15:52.640
incredibly heavy labor job and
that didn't appeal to me.

00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:55.040
So, I began wanting
to be a cartoonist.

00:15:58.920 --> 00:16:02.120
The first time I was aware
that any cartoonists anywhere

00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:06.400
were doing cartoons
about gay people was in

00:16:06.400 --> 00:16:10.720
the Advocate, the
pre-Stonewall Advocate.

00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.320
He was called Miss Thing
and it was very campy.

00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.280
Basically, he was someone
that a straight person

00:16:22.280 --> 00:16:25.600
would never know about,
like Tom of Finland who is now

00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:28.000
well known and they have
gallery shows in New York,

00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.280
but for my generation
it was, it was just porn.

00:16:30.280 --> 00:16:31.920
It was just particularly
excellent porn.

00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:38.040
It was a big step when
I moved to New York.

00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:41.000
I wasn't just interested in
doing comics about gayness

00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.920
or even just in doing comics.

00:16:42.920 --> 00:16:46.600
I wanted to do magazine
illustrations and other things.

00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:48.920
I didn't want to be pigeonholed.

00:16:53.280 --> 00:16:55.320
[Muffled concert noise,
car engines]

00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:00.960
In 1969 by happenstance,
I and some friends of mine

00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.360
happened to be witnesses
to the Stonewall riots.

00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.080
[Uplifting guitar riff]

00:17:19.360 --> 00:17:21.640
[Cheering crowd]

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.000
Within the days immediately
following the Stonewall riots,

00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.680
it became clear that
a fuse had been lit.

00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:59.400
[Cheering crowd]

00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:07.440
I became aware that there was a
civil rights battle to be fought.

00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.760
Then I felt like,
you know,

00:18:09.760 --> 00:18:12.760
something has to be done
so that every generation

00:18:12.760 --> 00:18:14.520
does not go through
what I went through.

00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.800
And one of the ways that I felt I
could contribute was to

00:18:20.800 --> 00:18:23.200
represent a world
that had gay people in it.

00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.080
[Pen scratching paper]

00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.080
[Taneka Stotts]:
I have only just begun to grasp

00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:40.480
the wealth of queer
comics history,

00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:41.760
so to speak.

00:18:41.760 --> 00:18:44.480
It's something that I feel you
should always know your roots,

00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.160
but these are very
new roots for me.

00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:48.440
[Alex Combs]:
I remember Mary Wings

00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.440
said she thought she
was the only lesbian.

00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.160
To put yourself out
there in a situation

00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:56.760
where you are going…
am I a total anomaly?

00:18:56.760 --> 00:18:59.040
And to still put
yourself out there,

00:18:59.040 --> 00:19:01.840
I mean, that’s
just amazing.

00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:05.120
- If it hadn't been for people
who came out before me

00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:07.520
in a time when it was much
more dangerous to do so

00:19:07.520 --> 00:19:09.120
and been willing
to make work,

00:19:09.120 --> 00:19:12.520
then my work wouldn't be
received the way that it is now.

00:19:12.520 --> 00:19:15.200
- I read Dykes to Watch Out For
cover to cover

00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:19.480
at the Lucy Parsons Library
in Boston, Massachusetts.

00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:23.520
And that experience of finding
that book and sitting

00:19:23.520 --> 00:19:27.080
in this library by myself and
just really delving deep

00:19:27.080 --> 00:19:29.800
into these characters that
this person had spent

00:19:29.800 --> 00:19:31.200
25 years creating…

00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.080
That had a huge
impact on me.

00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.080
- I’m filling in the blacks on
a very old comic strip.

00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:57.480
It’s very easy to fill in the
blacks with just a mouse click

00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.160
in Photoshop,
but for them to really look nice

00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:03.480
on their own they
should be inked in,

00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.440
so I’m doing that,
after the fact.

00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:16.160
I remember so clearly when
I discovered gay comics.

00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:17.760
The thought that
I could draw about

00:20:17.760 --> 00:20:21.440
my own queer life was
really revolutionary for me.

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.120
It was soon after seeing that
first issue of Gay Comix

00:20:30.120 --> 00:20:34.120
and being exposed to this
wonderful world of these stories

00:20:34.120 --> 00:20:38.440
that I forced myself to
start drawing lesbians

00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:40.440
because although
I had drawn all my life,

00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:45.400
I almost exclusively
drew men, uh,

00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:47.400
which started to
seem really odd to me

00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.720
once I came out and
realized that I was like

00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:52.000
really interested in women.

00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:53.400
Why was I just drawing men?

00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.000
[Donnie meows]

00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.400
[Laughing] Donnie,
you are so funny today.

00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:00.000
I just use Rapidograph ink.

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.200
I put it in a bottle
so I can get at it,

00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.920
and I use a dip pen,
a Hunt #100.

00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:11.920
But you can see it's…

00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.320
it can be a very fine line
or very thick line.

00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:17.640
It's very sharp and precise,
but it's also,

00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.320
it's got this emotionality
to it, you know,

00:21:20.320 --> 00:21:23.640
and the way you can get
so many different widths.

00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.000
Dykes to Watch Out For
evolved really slowly.

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.000
First from these just silly
drawings I was doing

00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.600
for my friends.

00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.600
Just one image with a
caption, that was kind of

00:21:38.600 --> 00:21:41.920
like the New Yorker
influence of my childhood.

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.600
I would always read the
comics in the New Yorker.

00:21:44.600 --> 00:21:46.600
[Lighthearted instrumental music]

00:21:52.280 --> 00:21:57.000
They were all just single panel
comics in the early days...

00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:00.680
something that I published
in the feminist newspaper

00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:02.680
where I worked in
New York City.

00:22:10.360 --> 00:22:13.080
So, this is
kind of like my,

00:22:13.080 --> 00:22:17.080
my final sketch that I’m
going to draw from.

00:22:17.080 --> 00:22:20.000
So, I put my good paper
down on top of it,

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.680
on a lightbox so
this shines through

00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:30.080
and then I redraw it all in
pencil and then I ink over it.

00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:32.840
The pencil is like this beautiful
evanescent stage that no longer

00:22:32.840 --> 00:22:35.840
exists because I have erased it
and I have drawn over it.

00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:40.800
But it is my favorite part of the
process when the pencil is

00:22:40.800 --> 00:22:43.120
all finished and I
haven’t inked it yet.

00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:44.200
[Vivian Kleiman]:
Why is that your favorite?

00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:47.520
- Because it still has the
possibility of perfection,

00:22:47.520 --> 00:22:49.160
I haven’t fucked
anything up yet.

00:22:54.040 --> 00:22:55.480
[Pensive instrumentals]

00:23:09.120 --> 00:23:10.240
I didn't earn a living
for a long time.

00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.120
It took me till I was 30 to
really have enough gigs

00:23:15.120 --> 00:23:18.200
that I could take that risk
of quitting my day job.

00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.120
My day job at that point
was cutting and pasting.

00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:22.800
That's before computers,

00:23:22.800 --> 00:23:25.800
really like wax and
rubber cement,

00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:28.200
which was great training
for being a cartoonist.

00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:29.200
I loved it.

00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.080
I love that challenge of having
to fit a certain amount of text

00:23:31.080 --> 00:23:34.200
and a certain number of
images into a given space.

00:23:51.080 --> 00:23:53.160
- If I can find what
I’m looking for...

00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:58.080
that’s not the drawer,
that’s not the drawer...

00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.080
That’s what I’m looking for.

00:24:00.080 --> 00:24:05.160
These are drawings that were either
drawn while I was tripping on acid,

00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:08.800
or that were inspired by
the acid experience.

00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.480
I was down in Alabama
in Birmingham

00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.480
and I discovered
Kitchen Sink Comics,

00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:22.080
published by
Denis Kitchen.

00:24:22.080 --> 00:24:24.480
So, I sent him
some of my stuff

00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:28.160
I had been doing for
underground newspapers locally.

00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.080
And Denis liked those and
asked me to send more.

00:24:31.080 --> 00:24:33.760
And so, he began to
regularly publish my stuff.

00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:37.160
[Laughter, mellow music]

00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:39.160
In 1979, Denis,

00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.160
with whom I had this long
relationship by then…

00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.160
He had published most of
my underground comix.

00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:44.440
He said he was
thinking about starting

00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:47.440
a new series
called Gay Comix.

00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.720
So, he said, would I
be interested in editing it.

00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:53.040
I realized it was really an ideal
way to come out professionally.

00:24:58.120 --> 00:24:59.120
- Denis!

00:24:59.120 --> 00:25:02.520
[Denis Kitchen]: Howard! Hey.

00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:03.800
- You remember Molly?

00:25:03.800 --> 00:25:07.200
- Of course.
Hey, Molly.

00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.800
- Let’s sit in here,
we can have some tea.

00:25:09.800 --> 00:25:11.080
- Alright.

00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:17.800
[Denis]: Nice cup.

00:25:17.800 --> 00:25:20.080
[Howard]: You know we
were talking about

00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:23.000
Gay Comix a while back.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.680
I remember getting a letter from
you about it but I don’t know

00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:30.080
if you ever told me sort of
what led you to think of it.

00:25:30.080 --> 00:25:31.680
[Denis]: I think, um,

00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.680
was it a story you
did in Snarf maybe,

00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.080
one of the comics where
Headrack came out?

00:25:37.080 --> 00:25:39.080
[Howard]: Yeah that
was Barefootz Number 2.

00:25:39.080 --> 00:25:41.160
[Low instrumentals]

00:25:45.280 --> 00:25:49.400
[Denis]: It just seemed to
me that the time was right.

00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:51.120
I mean I was doing,
you got to remember

00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:54.400
I was doing other
anthologies, Dope Comix,

00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.720
I was a card-carrying
marijuana smoker,

00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.000
that was easier for me.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.800
I was doing
Bizarre Sex comics.

00:26:00.800 --> 00:26:02.080
I was doing...

00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:03.800
[Howard]: You had a
bizarre sex life, right.

00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:06.080
- I was doing Wimmen’s Comix
with Trina and others.

00:26:06.080 --> 00:26:09.320
And it just seemed like
for me what underground comix

00:26:09.320 --> 00:26:14.920
were partly about is for a forum
for groups and individuals

00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:17.920
to speak their mind
and it was kind of

00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.920
an offshoot of the
free speech movement

00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:22.320
and it was like, it’s time.

00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:24.320
Comics were so
suppressed for so long

00:26:24.320 --> 00:26:27.320
my feeling was let
all the voices out.

00:26:27.320 --> 00:26:30.880
And once I figured out,
took me awhile,

00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:33.880
that you were gay
and I thought well, gee,

00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:35.280
you would be the
perfect guy to edit it.

00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.880
[Howard]: That was scary.
You can't take it back.

00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.160
The cat’s out of the bag.

00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:46.560
So, I wrote to
everybody who was

00:26:46.560 --> 00:26:49.880
in the world of
underground comix.

00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.880
I said, I know that
many of you may feel

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.280
that it's threatening
to your career,

00:26:55.280 --> 00:26:58.160
for you to be open
about being gay.

00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:00.320
As a gay person I felt
those feelings too,

00:27:00.320 --> 00:27:02.320
but I feel like,
you know,

00:27:02.320 --> 00:27:05.040
given the onslaught
of anti-gay activity,

00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:08.040
uh, that it was
really important

00:27:08.040 --> 00:27:12.600
that people be out and it's not
just for political reasons,

00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:16.640
but people should be able
to do art about their lives.

00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:18.000
[Typewriter clicking]

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.600
We sent this letter
to every cartoonist

00:27:22.600 --> 00:27:25.320
in Denis Kitchen’s Rolodex.

00:27:25.320 --> 00:27:29.600
- I know there were more than a
handful of rather macho guys

00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:34.280
who were quite indignant
that they got this form letter

00:27:34.280 --> 00:27:36.600
but I mean,
like I said who knows.

00:27:36.600 --> 00:27:38.920
And there were a
number of surprises,

00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.280
that we never
would have guessed,

00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:44.000
including some
people who were bi.

00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.280
[Lively music beat]

00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.160
[Howard]: I wanted to establish
this is co-gender.

00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.160
Uh, this is not
a boy’s club.

00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.280
I said, I want this
to be an honest comic book

00:27:59.280 --> 00:28:01.640
about the human
experience of being gay.

00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:03.960
I mean even if you want
to do a funny animal story,

00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.920
it needs to grow out of
the real-life experiences

00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:10.640
of gay people in spirit.

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.640
I mean it could be
fanciful, it could be,

00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:13.920
you know, you can
take all sorts of

00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:15.640
liberties with reality.

00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:16.960
But what I didn't
want was something

00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.960
that was all about
camp or that was

00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:24.360
specifically just
about sex.

00:28:24.360 --> 00:28:26.360
I said in my
opening statement,

00:28:26.360 --> 00:28:29.040
I wanted this to be about
people, not penises.

00:28:29.040 --> 00:28:32.360
And some of the artists took
me so literally that the issue

00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:34.960
was in danger of being,
you know,

00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:38.920
so sex free that I made my
contribution to the first issue

00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.040
was a very sexually
explicit story.

00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:45.320
It's called Billy Goes Out was
the name of the story.

00:28:45.320 --> 00:28:49.840
It was about going out for a
night of hopefully sex

00:28:49.840 --> 00:28:51.840
in Greenwich Village,
in the late seventies

00:28:51.840 --> 00:28:54.520
before the AIDS epidemic.

00:28:54.520 --> 00:28:57.840
Externally, the guy was
out looking for sex,

00:28:57.840 --> 00:28:59.520
he was cruising.

00:28:59.520 --> 00:29:02.320
It was about the inner
life of the character.

00:29:02.320 --> 00:29:04.320
Every panel had his
thought processes

00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:06.560
above his actual actions.

00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.280
He had this thing called
the rejection checklist.

00:29:22.840 --> 00:29:24.240
But also talked about
head things about his

00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:26.840
family relationships,
all the things

00:29:26.840 --> 00:29:28.240
that might go
through your head,

00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:33.160
and the point was people who
entered that sexual world

00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:36.720
that was so freewheeling
during the 70s,

00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.400
they were full-fledged human
beings who had lives.

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.000
[Street noise, 70s synth]

00:29:58.080 --> 00:30:05.360
[Jen Camper]: I remember
in 1979 I had a friend

00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:10.080
who was always sick and nobody
could figure out what it was

00:30:10.080 --> 00:30:14.360
and he would go to the doctor
and they would give him

00:30:14.360 --> 00:30:16.960
some sort of diagnosis
and give him

00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:20.360
some kind of medication
and he never got better.

00:30:20.360 --> 00:30:23.040
And then we started
hearing about GRID,

00:30:23.040 --> 00:30:26.360
the Gay Related Immune
Deficiency, and then AIDS.

00:30:26.360 --> 00:30:28.360
[News Anchor]: ...more than
800 cases nationwide.

00:30:28.360 --> 00:30:30.960
300+ of those, fatal.

00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.960
And every day, three more
cases are identified.

00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.640
And yet, still,
surprisingly few people

00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:40.360
are familiar with the Acquired
Immune Deficiency Syndrome.

00:30:40.360 --> 00:30:42.920
[Heavy hearted instrumentals]

00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:52.640
- And we lived through this
period where it was this mystery

00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.920
and then it was this
death sentence.

00:31:20.360 --> 00:31:23.680
AIDS was a huge part of
our lives and our friends

00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.360
were getting
sick and dying

00:31:26.360 --> 00:31:29.680
and we were
helpless to stop it.

00:31:33.080 --> 00:31:36.360
And our whole community--

00:31:36.360 --> 00:31:37.960
I don't know if
I can talk about this.

00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.520
[Heavy hearted music continues]

00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:57.800
I can’t talk about it.

00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:12.560
[Jen weeps]

00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:22.520
[Crowd chants]: Act up,
fight back, fight AIDS!

00:32:32.120 --> 00:32:33.240
- It was a frightening time.

00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:35.240
It was a heartbreaking time.

00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:38.840
I watched people behave
in terrible ways.

00:32:38.840 --> 00:32:41.520
And we wrote
about it in comics.

00:32:41.520 --> 00:32:44.520
It was hard to write
about sometimes.

00:32:44.520 --> 00:32:46.200
It was difficult.

00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:10.280
Some people told personal
stories about characters

00:33:10.280 --> 00:33:13.280
with HIV and AIDS,
like Howard did in Wendel.

00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:19.160
Seven Miles a Second
by David Wojnarowicz

00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:22.160
was really about the
rage and the horror

00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.160
that was involved
in this epidemic.

00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:27.240
[Fire roars, sirens blare]

00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:34.520
Some people did satirical
comics about the reaction

00:33:34.520 --> 00:33:36.840
to HIV and AIDS.

00:33:36.840 --> 00:33:38.520
[Water splashing]

00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:47.520
[Howard Cruse]: That's the
kind of humor you would get

00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:48.800
from people with AIDS.

00:33:52.120 --> 00:33:57.400
Humor is one of the ways that
people deal with tragedy.

00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.400
Death was in the air.

00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.160
They weren't pretending
it wasn’t.

00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:06.080
[Female voice over system]:
Jerry Lopresky.

00:34:06.080 --> 00:34:10.480
L.H.M.
Michael.

00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:11.760
[Howard Cruse]: Basically,
you know, America

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.160
at large was not
interested in reacting.

00:34:15.160 --> 00:34:17.040
Gay people stepped
up to the plate.

00:34:17.040 --> 00:34:19.040
[Name listing continues]:
Michael McDowell.

00:34:19.040 --> 00:34:21.440
Joe Avela.
Maysle.

00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.720
Michael Babcock.
Ninhas.

00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:26.120
[Howard Cruse]: There's no
other group of people

00:34:26.120 --> 00:34:28.640
I would rather go through
a deadly epidemic with

00:34:28.640 --> 00:34:30.960
than the gay community.

00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:35.280
[Names continue]:
Howard Dill.

00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.160
[Howard Cruse]: Our response
to the AIDS epidemic as,

00:34:38.160 --> 00:34:42.160
as horrible as it was,
made you proud to be gay.

00:34:42.160 --> 00:34:44.880
- Alex Covenant…

00:34:51.560 --> 00:34:55.240
[Seagulls squawk]

00:34:55.240 --> 00:35:57.240
[Inquisitive music instrumentals]

00:35:08.040 --> 00:35:12.680
- Look at the highlights
on that sausage sign!

00:35:12.680 --> 00:35:14.160
The lettering is amazing.

00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:16.560
You've got drop shadows.
You've got italics.

00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:18.160
You've got outline.

00:35:18.160 --> 00:35:20.120
Some have serifs;
some don't.

00:35:20.120 --> 00:35:25.040
It's classic old style,
hand-painted sign lettering.

00:35:25.600 --> 00:35:29.280
I love these two characters
on the roof of the building.

00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.600
But it always cracks me
up that the little girl is

00:35:31.600 --> 00:35:35.280
carrying a mug that looks
like a giant mug of beer.

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:39.160
And I think originally those
were root beer stand signs,

00:35:39.160 --> 00:35:43.280
but now it looks like she's an
exclusively drunken child,

00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.560
which I love.

00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:49.840
I always drew comics.

00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.240
In school, it was making
fun of the teachers

00:35:52.240 --> 00:35:57.840
or the people in authority,
and art was a way for me

00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:02.040
to comment on
what was going on.

00:36:02.040 --> 00:36:03.920
And I am very
opinionated,

00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:05.360
and I have something to
say about everything.

00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.680
I didn't really think of
being a cartoonist.

00:36:10.680 --> 00:36:12.080
I just, it was
something that was

00:36:12.080 --> 00:36:13.640
accessible to me.

00:36:13.640 --> 00:36:15.080
It was a pencil
and a piece of paper

00:36:15.080 --> 00:36:18.640
and it didn't require a whole
lot of expensive equipment.

00:36:20.640 --> 00:36:22.360
[Cultural string music]

00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:34.040
I come from a
mixed background.

00:36:34.040 --> 00:36:38.040
I'm half Lebanese, half
white-bread American mongrel.

00:36:38.040 --> 00:36:41.640
And I didn't relate to
the little girls in the,

00:36:41.640 --> 00:36:43.320
you know, the
books I was reading.

00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.320
And I didn't relate to the

00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:48.640
downtrodden,
struggling, whatever.

00:36:48.640 --> 00:36:52.160
I wanted characters like
me to be victorious.

00:36:57.240 --> 00:36:59.560
[Heavy rock music]

00:37:09.600 --> 00:37:11.320
[Atmospheric bar noise]

00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:15.920
I remember going to a gay bar
when I was under age

00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:17.600
and that was amazing,
[laughing]

00:37:17.600 --> 00:37:20.880
those are some stories!

00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.280
I remember seeing
all these older dykes

00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:25.600
and being
fascinated by them.

00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:29.880
And the drink was the, um,
what was the orange drink?

00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:31.000
Tequila sunrises.

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.280
All those pretty drinks,
that bright colors.

00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:37.000
And then these big old
dykes who had like

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.560
been kicked out
of the Army.

00:37:38.560 --> 00:37:41.880
And they were like buying
drinks for their girls.

00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:43.880
And I was watching
everything and learning,

00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:45.120
Oh, this is how
you do it. Right.

00:37:48.720 --> 00:37:50.720
And I remember hanging
out and being just,

00:37:50.720 --> 00:37:52.440
you know,
a little brat.

00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:55.440
And that's really how
I saw the queer world

00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.120
and learned
about dyke behavior.

00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:02.800
[Growl!]

00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:04.200
[Fast-paced beat]

00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:27.080
My feeling was I was creating
sexual imagery for dykes,

00:38:27.080 --> 00:38:28.480
and I felt like,

00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.160
well why can't we have
our own sexy comics?

00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:34.440
[Curious string instrumentals]

00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.760
Some women felt that
my work was too sexist.

00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.040
And I was
objectifying women.

00:38:54.040 --> 00:38:55.040
I’m a dyke!

00:38:55.040 --> 00:38:56.720
I do objectify women,
I love them.

00:38:56.720 --> 00:38:58.720
I find them sexy.

00:38:58.720 --> 00:39:01.520
I loved the fact that people
were paying attention

00:39:01.520 --> 00:39:04.200
and if they got mad then
I was doing my job.

00:39:04.200 --> 00:39:06.520
[Campy instrumental music]

00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.600
I never had an idea
that this was a career.

00:39:25.600 --> 00:39:27.600
This is what I did
because I loved it,

00:39:27.600 --> 00:39:30.000
because it was fun.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.280
In the early eighties,
Howard Cruse had started

00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:38.560
the anthology comic,
Gay Comix, with an x.

00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:45.280
And I sent something in and
Howard said he would print it.

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:49.160
And Howard was just an amazing
editor and amazing mentor.

00:39:49.160 --> 00:39:53.240
And as I went along in my career,
every time I hit a wall of,

00:39:53.240 --> 00:39:55.280
‘Oh, how do
I do a contract?’

00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:58.160
Or ‘how do I, how much
should I charge for this?’

00:39:58.160 --> 00:40:00.680
Or ‘what if they don't pay me?’
you know, call Howard.

00:40:00.680 --> 00:40:02.000
Cause he’d know.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.080
He'd done it, you know.

00:40:03.080 --> 00:40:05.080
And so, he really, um,

00:40:05.080 --> 00:40:07.400
is the godfather
of queer comics.

00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:12.360
[Coffee drips, eggs sizzle]

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:16.680
[Howard Cruse]:
My now husband,

00:40:16.680 --> 00:40:21.080
and for 37 years partner,
Eddie Sedarbaum,

00:40:21.080 --> 00:40:25.960
I met in 1979 after I had lived
in New York for two years.

00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:28.040
We met at a gay
discussion group.

00:40:28.040 --> 00:40:31.360
I quickly detected
that, you know,

00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:33.360
he was a really interesting
person to talk to,

00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:36.360
and he had thoughtful
things to say and it had

00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:38.040
possibilities of
moving beyond

00:40:38.040 --> 00:40:41.960
just a, you
know, hookup.

00:40:41.960 --> 00:40:43.640
Here we are,
37 years later.

00:40:43.640 --> 00:40:46.320
- Have you ever
remembered your coffee?

00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.320
- Once, I think
I did once.

00:40:52.640 --> 00:40:54.320
Starting with Gay Comix
and then continuing

00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:57.320
through the 80s,
I was drawing about

00:40:57.320 --> 00:40:59.320
the kind of people,

00:40:59.320 --> 00:41:02.640
uh, like Eddie and
me and our friends.

00:41:05.040 --> 00:41:07.640
In the third issue,
I felt all the stories were

00:41:07.640 --> 00:41:12.920
about young buff gay
men and I wanted to do

00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:14.320
something about,
uh, older gays,

00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:17.000
who are underrepresented.

00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:18.320
So, I created
these two characters,

00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:20.000
Luke and Clark,
and the story was called

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.920
“Dirty Old Lovers,”
spun off of

00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.600
some of the kind of times
Eddie and I would have.

00:41:24.600 --> 00:41:26.320
Eddie and I have always been
very uninhibited about,

00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:28.280
uh, you know, saying
lascivious things,

00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:30.000
that what was
going on around us

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.880
or taking note
of cute guys.

00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:36.000
- Nice smile!
[Chuckling]

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.720
- And so, the
“Dirty Old Lovers,”

00:41:37.720 --> 00:41:40.000
it was just about a stroll they
took in their neighborhood.

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.000
And ultimately, they
wound up at a bar.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.000
All of the other guys in
this gay bar were being

00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:48.720
really snotty about
these two older gay men.

00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:51.680
This guy took umbrage at that
and went home with them.

00:41:51.680 --> 00:41:53.200
And so, they had a
nice cuddly threesome.

00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:02.280
It was an affirmative thing
about getting older,

00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.600
but it was also just fun to
write because these guys

00:42:04.600 --> 00:42:09.880
are just so uninhibited and
the repartee wrote itself.

00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:18.160
- I have a very early
Dykes to Watch Out For.

00:42:18.160 --> 00:42:19.560
Oh my god look at it,
yeah, it's crappy.

00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:21.560
It's like just normal drawing
paper with Wite-Out

00:42:21.560 --> 00:42:23.560
that's so chipping off and...

00:42:23.560 --> 00:42:26.160
I can tell you I drew it
with a Niji Stylus.

00:42:26.160 --> 00:42:27.560
Isn’t that weird that I can tell
just by looking at the line

00:42:27.560 --> 00:42:29.240
what pen it was?

00:42:29.240 --> 00:42:31.240
[Charming instrumental music]

00:42:33.160 --> 00:42:34.560
It was almost a mission
of mine for a long time

00:42:34.560 --> 00:42:36.600
to show this stuff.

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.880
Just to show real bodies,
people’s real sex lives.

00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:53.880
I wanted to destigmatize lesbian
sexuality and women’s bodies.

00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.840
It was something I felt
really passionately about.

00:43:01.040 --> 00:43:04.320
Here's one after I
introduced the characters

00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:06.320
and it's an episode where
they're all on their way

00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.040
to the 1987
March on Washington.

00:43:09.040 --> 00:43:11.320
[Engines revving]

00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:21.320
About four years after
I drew the first cartoon,

00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:25.920
I finally took the plunge into
creating regular characters

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:31.000
like I had seen Howard do,
and never looked back.

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:34.600
Every two weeks I had to further
my character's narrative

00:43:34.600 --> 00:43:38.600
and I had to weave in the
latest horror that had

00:43:38.600 --> 00:43:41.600
happened on the
political scene.

00:43:41.600 --> 00:43:43.880
Many of my characters
were also consumed with

00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.280
all of this stuff
that was going on,

00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:51.560
the Patriot Act and all this
sort of creeping fascism.

00:43:51.560 --> 00:43:55.280
I kept track of this all with
this crazy spreadsheet.

00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.880
You keep track of the episodes
across the top and down the side

00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:00.960
are all your characters.

00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.040
So, I would map
out my stories almost like

00:44:03.040 --> 00:44:05.360
they were spontaneously
generated.

00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:07.920
Like I put all this information
into the spreadsheet

00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.480
and I got a story out of it.

00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:28.760
- The first time I can
remember seeing

00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.040
a trans guy
represented in comics,

00:44:31.040 --> 00:44:34.120
I think it was probably in
Dykes to Watch Out For.

00:44:34.120 --> 00:44:36.720
Oh look, I exist!

00:44:36.720 --> 00:44:39.040
- You know one way or another,
we all have someone

00:44:39.040 --> 00:44:41.040
we are scared to
tell something to.

00:44:41.040 --> 00:44:45.320
And it is just a great
starting point for stories.

00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:53.920
[MariNaomi]:
I would religiously read

00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:56.320
Rob Kirby's Curbside.

00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:59.000
Wow. I really wanted to
be a gay man in New York.

00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:01.600
Cause I'm still deep in my
heart a huge fan girl.

00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:07.160
[Nicole Georges]:
I love that Jen Camper

00:45:07.160 --> 00:45:11.880
is an out Arab-American
hardcore feminist woman!

00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:15.160
[Carlo Quispe]: The first
queer comic that I saw,

00:45:15.160 --> 00:45:17.240
that I was like,
ok this is gay,

00:45:17.240 --> 00:45:19.880
and like I have to
hide this from my family,

00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:21.240
was the Wendel comic.

00:45:26.240 --> 00:45:28.240
- Most of my comics
are not about violence,

00:45:28.240 --> 00:45:33.120
but this was a scene where
Wendel and his friends

00:45:33.120 --> 00:45:35.520
are attacked by
homophobes

00:45:35.520 --> 00:45:38.120
and uh, you have a
scene such as this

00:45:38.120 --> 00:45:40.200
where Wendel is
getting hit in the face.

00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:42.120
It's very central
on the page.

00:45:42.120 --> 00:45:45.200
For regular Wendel
readers, it’s shocking.

00:45:45.200 --> 00:45:47.080
You know,
we love Wendel,

00:45:47.080 --> 00:45:48.080
we don't want
him to get hit.

00:45:51.200 --> 00:45:53.160
[Pensive piano music]

00:45:55.160 --> 00:45:57.200
I decided, well,
maybe I should

00:45:57.200 --> 00:46:01.840
have Wendel find
himself in love with a guy

00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:03.280
and form a relationship.

00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.280
It was an area that had
not been covered a lot,

00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:12.080
the actual development
of a gay relationship.

00:46:16.080 --> 00:46:20.200
Wendel didn't have scars
from being in the closet.

00:46:20.200 --> 00:46:21.200
Ollie, you know,

00:46:21.200 --> 00:46:24.080
had a lot of leftover
fears about consequences

00:46:24.080 --> 00:46:25.480
of being openly gay,

00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:27.680
had trouble coming
out to his parents.

00:46:27.680 --> 00:46:29.360
So that was drawing
on the part of me

00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:33.960
that remembered
that experience vividly.

00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:35.040
There's a sequence
when Ollie

00:46:35.040 --> 00:46:38.960
finally decides to
come out to his family.

00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:40.960
He's being very bold about
it and he gets his little

00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:46.040
mess letter, you know,
and he puts it in the mailbox

00:46:46.040 --> 00:46:48.040
and then has
an anxiety attack.

00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:49.640
You know,
hugging the mailbox,

00:46:49.640 --> 00:46:50.920
‘What have I done?’

00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:58.320
- Ten years or so after I
wrote Come Out Comix,

00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.720
there was a gay and
lesbian comic scene.

00:47:01.720 --> 00:47:04.720
It happened so fast
and it grew so huge

00:47:04.720 --> 00:47:06.720
and I met amazing people.

00:47:06.720 --> 00:47:10.400
And suddenly, I had a
whole wonderful group,

00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:13.080
national and international,
around me.

00:47:13.080 --> 00:47:16.360
It was very exciting.

00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:18.040
I’m here at a different
light bookstore

00:47:18.040 --> 00:47:21.640
for the opening of
Queer Cartoons show.

00:47:21.640 --> 00:47:25.040
And we have 51 artists
in this show,

00:47:25.040 --> 00:47:28.640
168 pages of
fabulous cartoon art.

00:47:28.640 --> 00:47:30.640
I put this show together
with my good friend

00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:33.320
Dan Seitler, who’s
a wonderful cartoonist.

00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:36.920
And we wanted to celebrate
cartoonists and the gay artists

00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:39.320
that we know,
and promote their work.

00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:41.920
[Jen Camper]: We got to do pretty
much whatever we wanted,

00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:44.320
and that was
really exciting.

00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.920
I’m Jen Camper and I’m
hanging out here in the bathtub…

00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.000
[Toilet flushes, laughter]

00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:55.600
None of us made money,

00:47:55.600 --> 00:47:58.320
but we had a whole lot
of creative freedom.

00:47:58.320 --> 00:47:59.880
- I’m Alison Bechdel
and I draw

00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:01.680
Dykes to Watch Out For
cartoons...

00:48:01.680 --> 00:48:04.080
Another thing that was terribly
exciting to me about comics

00:48:04.080 --> 00:48:08.360
was, no one was
judging it, no one was...

00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:12.360
It was like this
free play zone.

00:48:15.040 --> 00:48:18.360
There were absolutely
no rules or limits.

00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:21.040
People were drawing all
kinds of naked bodies and

00:48:21.040 --> 00:48:24.600
sexual activities and the crazier
something could be the better.

00:48:31.600 --> 00:48:34.280
[Jen Camper]: I didn't feel
like there was competition

00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:38.000
because nobody was
doing the same thing.

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:42.280
Each of us had a really
distinctive drawing style and voice,

00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:45.000
and we all were
talking about

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.880
different aspects of
queer community.

00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:51.080
[Whimsical instrumental music]

00:49:11.120 --> 00:49:13.440
[Motorcycle revving]

00:49:28.120 --> 00:49:32.120
In the 90s, every major city
had a gay newspaper.

00:49:39.680 --> 00:49:42.680
We were all doing comics maybe
for one or two newspapers

00:49:42.680 --> 00:49:44.000
and then suddenly
it was like, well,

00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.080
there's 50 newspapers
in the United States

00:49:46.080 --> 00:49:47.640
that we could send
our comics to.

00:49:50.040 --> 00:49:53.040
People got the idea that we
can syndicate our comics.

00:49:53.040 --> 00:49:55.320
[Charming instrumental music]

00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:04.000
[Rupert Kinnard]:
Windy City Times in Chicago.

00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:06.920
I think they offered
$25 for each strip,

00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:08.000
and I think I thought,

00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:12.880
‘Oh! Okay.
That would really help!’

00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.000
And then you’d get
somewhat syndicated

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.880
to a couple of other papers
and then they pay you,

00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:21.600
and it starts being significant.

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:28.880
I went from having the strip
published in college,

00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:31.280
that community,
and then in Portland,

00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.600
and then when I went
to the Bay Area,

00:50:33.600 --> 00:50:36.560
it was published in a
queer newspaper,

00:50:36.560 --> 00:50:39.800
Bay Times, and
then in the Sentinel.

00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:52.160
When I left the Sentinel,
the biggest step for me

00:50:52.160 --> 00:50:54.080
with my comic strip
is when it

00:50:54.080 --> 00:51:00.480
first started being
published in SF Weekly.

00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.760
It was like a larger
playground.

00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:09.480
I realized that
I had a unique voice

00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:12.440
in those publications
to challenge.

00:51:17.040 --> 00:51:19.760
I experienced a lot in
the gay community

00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:23.040
as an African American.

00:51:23.040 --> 00:51:24.120
So, I’m like,
I’m using this

00:51:24.120 --> 00:51:27.120
as an opportunity to
talk about these things

00:51:27.120 --> 00:51:29.040
that we should be
addressing.

00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.720
[Gaia Wxyz]: From the very
first time I saw an image

00:51:37.720 --> 00:51:40.400
of the Brown Bomber and
Diva of the World,

00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:42.720
I was just like,
who is that?

00:51:42.720 --> 00:51:46.720
Who are these characters,
I love them!

00:51:46.720 --> 00:51:49.400
Upon reading more of his
work, I was just struck

00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:53.080
by the level of analysis
and the intersectionality

00:51:53.080 --> 00:51:55.680
that he was able to
portray in his work.

00:51:55.680 --> 00:51:57.960
Talking about the experience
of being Black and gay,

00:51:57.960 --> 00:51:59.840
or being Black and woman.

00:52:06.600 --> 00:52:08.320
[Lawrence Lindell]:
To be Black and queer,

00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.920
and only know
about Rupert’s work,

00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:13.920
Rupert Kinnard’s work two years
ago at “Queers and Comics”

00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:17.000
is kind of…
it was profound to me,

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:19.000
but also it made
me very sad,

00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.000
cause I’m like, how many
other Ruperts are there

00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:24.000
that I don’t know about,
that I could have used.

00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.000
And not only was he
making queer comics about

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:30.280
being Black and queer but
this was way, way back,

00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:31.560
and it’s not a new thing.

00:52:31.560 --> 00:52:35.280
It would have been nice
to not have to struggle.

00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:36.560
Is it okay for me to do this?

00:52:43.560 --> 00:52:46.560
- The differences between
Rupert’s work and my work

00:52:46.560 --> 00:52:49.160
kind of reflect the times
that we were working in.

00:52:49.160 --> 00:52:52.160
You know, Rupert’s
characters were very

00:52:52.160 --> 00:52:55.240
much directly interfacing
with white characters

00:52:55.240 --> 00:52:57.240
that didn’t get it.

00:52:57.240 --> 00:52:59.560
And, here and now,
as artists

00:52:59.560 --> 00:53:02.120
we don’t necessarily
have to put a white character

00:53:02.120 --> 00:53:05.120
at the center of the
narrative anymore.

00:53:05.120 --> 00:53:08.440
- I’m privileged that I have
access to so many people

00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:10.120
who happen to
look like me.

00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:37.680
[Howard Cruse]:
Everybody takes inspiration

00:53:37.680 --> 00:53:40.000
from the generation before.

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:42.400
After Art Spiegelman
came out with Maus,

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:46.360
then there began to be serious
literary graphic novels.

00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:48.520
There was always the question
that could I do a graphic novel?

00:53:53.520 --> 00:53:55.520
And I thought, there's
been very little coverage

00:53:55.520 --> 00:54:00.600
about what gay life before
Stonewall in the South was like.

00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:16.160
And there was all of this
ferment in Birmingham about

00:54:16.160 --> 00:54:19.280
civil rights at the same time,
so I would be able to

00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:20.560
cover some ground
that hadn’t been

00:54:20.560 --> 00:54:23.280
covered in other
gay literature.

00:54:26.160 --> 00:54:29.240
Going into a project as long
as Stuck Rubber Baby

00:54:29.240 --> 00:54:33.240
was a big scary step.

00:54:33.240 --> 00:54:37.040
I got a contract and I had an
advance covering two years.

00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:42.720
But I realized that
to tell this story,

00:54:42.720 --> 00:54:47.720
you needed to feel the world
around the characters.

00:54:47.720 --> 00:54:52.040
It couldn't be done without
putting time into drawing

00:54:52.040 --> 00:54:54.400
in more detail
with more shading

00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:56.720
than I had ever
done before.

00:55:14.160 --> 00:55:17.080
I began to panic when
I saw that I couldn’t go

00:55:17.080 --> 00:55:19.760
nearly as fast
as I had thought.

00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:23.920
I was thinking: ‘Oh no!
This is going to be a disaster.

00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:27.960
How would I, how
would I pay the rent?’

00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:30.640
And finally, I just had to change
my attitude and I said:

00:55:30.640 --> 00:55:34.520
‘Well, I'll just have to
take whatever time it takes.’

00:55:34.520 --> 00:55:36.080
And it wound up
taking four years.

00:55:39.160 --> 00:55:40.760
A lot of people
are surprised

00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:44.160
that these are as
large as they are.

00:55:44.160 --> 00:55:46.160
These are actually
two and a half times

00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:48.960
the size that they
appear in the book.

00:55:48.960 --> 00:55:51.680
It allows me to put in detail
the large amount of

00:55:51.680 --> 00:55:53.960
cross hatching to try
to create a shading,

00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:57.680
a graduated shading
from lighter to darker.

00:55:57.680 --> 00:55:59.960
The book uses a lot of that.

00:56:04.040 --> 00:56:06.120
This is an example of
comic book conventions,

00:56:06.120 --> 00:56:09.040
so things like the dog,

00:56:09.040 --> 00:56:12.040
which intrudes into the
surrounding panels.

00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:16.560
The feeling of threat is right
at the center of the page.

00:56:16.560 --> 00:56:18.280
If possible, I like
to always have

00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.280
what I call an
anchor panel.

00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:22.880
The panel I most want
the eye to follow when

00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:24.280
the person turns the page.

00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:27.560
In this one it would be this but
they still need to read the

00:56:27.560 --> 00:56:30.560
panels that go before it to see
how it fits into the story.

00:56:30.560 --> 00:56:32.160
It gives coherence,

00:56:32.160 --> 00:56:37.560
so it's not just a bunch of
random rectangles.

00:56:37.560 --> 00:56:42.560
In each given layout for the page,
I try to suggest the atmosphere

00:56:42.560 --> 00:56:45.160
that is going on
in the scene.

00:56:45.160 --> 00:56:46.840
Here you have,
I wanted a certain

00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:51.560
feeling of chaos because
they are in the middle of a riot.

00:56:51.560 --> 00:56:54.000
[Dog barking]

00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:56.400
[Whistle blows]

00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.680
[Crowd chanting]

00:57:07.040 --> 00:57:09.160
It was a wonderful
artistic experience,

00:57:09.160 --> 00:57:11.160
as financially
disastrous as it was.

00:57:39.560 --> 00:57:40.560
[Alison Bechdel]:
For a long time,

00:57:40.560 --> 00:57:43.160
I kept getting more gay
newspapers every year.

00:57:43.160 --> 00:57:47.640
It was like this
growing thing.

00:57:47.640 --> 00:57:49.320
I was selling more
of my books.

00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:54.320
I was publishing these
collections of the comic strip

00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:56.920
and then all of a sudden
in the late nineties

00:57:56.920 --> 00:58:00.600
at the turn of the millennium,
everything started drying up.

00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:04.600
There was the internet,
but there was also

00:58:04.600 --> 00:58:09.000
the rise of Amazon.com
and Barnes & Noble.

00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:10.880
These, these, you know,

00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:12.000
these chain
bookstores that were

00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.000
changing the whole
publishing landscape,

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.880
you know, um anything
fringe or alternative

00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:22.880
or independent was dying.

00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:29.560
[Jen Camper]:
Gay Comix stopped publishing.

00:58:29.560 --> 00:58:31.240
A lot of us were
doing great work,

00:58:31.240 --> 00:58:34.560
but we weren't really finding
places to publish it.

00:58:34.560 --> 00:58:36.160
That pissed me off.

00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:38.240
So, I decided to
do an anthology

00:58:38.240 --> 00:58:40.560
called Juicy Mother.

00:58:40.560 --> 00:58:45.840
And the cover is by Karen Platt
and it’s a big gay party.

00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:48.840
Each Juicy Mother
had a cartoon jam.

00:58:51.240 --> 00:58:57.760
And a cartoon jam works where
one person does a panel,

00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:00.040
gives it to the next person
and they do a panel

00:59:00.040 --> 00:59:01.240
and they give it to
the next person

00:59:01.240 --> 00:59:08.120
and it goes around a few
times and you get a whole story.

00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:16.200
What's fun about a cartoon
jam is you get to draw

00:59:16.200 --> 00:59:20.520
each other's comics,
but what's weird about it is

00:59:20.520 --> 00:59:22.800
you don't have control and
suddenly you've got to

00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:26.520
give up your character and
somebody else could kill them off.

00:59:26.520 --> 00:59:28.800
So, I did a
lot of cartoon jams,

00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:31.800
where I kind of edited them
and brought people together,

00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:34.200
and back in the day it
was all done by mail,

00:59:34.200 --> 00:59:36.080
and they are great,
they are crazy,

00:59:36.080 --> 00:59:38.080
they are nuts and
they are a lot of fun.

00:59:43.200 --> 00:59:45.480
[Live punk music]

00:59:52.160 --> 00:59:55.160
As the gay ghetto
was crumbling in a way,

00:59:55.160 --> 00:59:58.480
there was also the rise of the
punk and DIY movement,

00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:02.160
and so people started
making their own zines.

01:00:06.160 --> 01:00:08.560
Maybe you couldn’t get
published by a major

01:00:08.560 --> 01:00:11.160
publishing house or even
a minor publishing house,

01:00:11.160 --> 01:00:12.320
but you could make
your own zine.

01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:24.320
To make a zine,
all you need to do is

01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:27.920
write or draw something,
photocopy it,

01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:29.320
fold it, you staple
it and you make

01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:31.320
hundreds of copies and
you sell and trade them

01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:34.320
with all your friends.

01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:36.920
The storytelling
became very personal,

01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:39.280
raw and visceral.

01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:41.600
Diane DiMassa
did Hothead Paisan,

01:00:41.600 --> 01:00:44.000
and it's one of
the most amazing little

01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:47.000
self-published comics
to come out.

01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:50.160
Hothead Paisan is a
homicidal lesbian terrorist.

01:00:50.160 --> 01:00:51.560
And she's filled with rage.

01:00:54.160 --> 01:00:56.160
And she goes
through life reacting to

01:00:56.160 --> 01:00:58.560
all the injustice
that's around her.

01:00:58.560 --> 01:01:00.360
[Cantankerous instrumental music]

01:01:10.640 --> 01:01:11.640
[Nicole Georges]:
She was this almost like

01:01:11.640 --> 01:01:13.640
a cavewoman unleashed.

01:01:13.640 --> 01:01:16.320
She walked like this and
her hair was like crazy

01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:18.000
and sticking out and
she would get so angry

01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:19.320
at men that she
would grab, like,

01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:22.600
a labrys or something and
chop them up or threaten to.

01:01:22.600 --> 01:01:23.920
- We'd get away with
a lot of stuff because

01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:25.600
no one even knows
to stop it sometimes.

01:01:25.600 --> 01:01:27.000
They’re not paying
attention to us.

01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:28.600
There's a lot of
freedom there.

01:01:28.600 --> 01:01:30.600
- Right now, the
emphasis I’m seeing

01:01:30.600 --> 01:01:33.040
a lot more in the
zine community is

01:01:33.040 --> 01:01:35.360
about heritage,
about culture.

01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:36.960
It’s really more and
more artists who are

01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:38.640
going back to
their histories,

01:01:38.640 --> 01:01:41.960
back to their family
history and saying

01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:43.960
‘This is who I am,
this is what defines me,

01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:45.360
my identity.

01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:46.640
Yes, I’m a
queer person,

01:01:46.640 --> 01:01:48.640
but I’m also this
other person.’

01:01:48.640 --> 01:01:50.640
[Uplifting instrumental music]

01:01:54.920 --> 01:01:57.040
- So then when the
internet really became

01:01:57.040 --> 01:02:01.000
part of everybody's
world, people started

01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:04.080
putting their comics online
and getting responses

01:02:04.080 --> 01:02:07.000
and web comics became a

01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:10.680
huge community for
all cartoonists,

01:02:10.680 --> 01:02:13.080
particularly for people
who are marginalized.

01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:17.000
[Uplifting instrumental continues]

01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:58.920
- I was in Mississippi for my
grandmother's funeral

01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:03.000
and the very next day I was
on a two-lane highway.

01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:06.000
I encountered a car
veering into my lane.

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:12.080
And I turned my steering wheel
sharply and went into a ditch.

01:03:12.080 --> 01:03:17.000
It was a freak accident in that
there was no damage to the car,

01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:20.400
no damage to me except my
hands could feel my legs

01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:22.160
but my legs didn't
feel my hand.

01:03:29.560 --> 01:03:34.160
Scott had to fly to the
hospital in Memphis.

01:03:34.160 --> 01:03:36.840
And there was my
mother and father,

01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:40.240
and Scott came into
the room and basically

01:03:40.240 --> 01:03:43.560
turned to the nurse and said,
‘uh, I'm his partner.

01:03:43.560 --> 01:03:47.560
I'll need a cot.
I'll be sleeping next to him.’

01:03:47.560 --> 01:03:48.560
It wasn't any of this:

01:03:48.560 --> 01:03:52.520
‘I'm wondering if it's possible
that I might be able to get a cot?

01:03:52.520 --> 01:03:53.840
I'm not sure.

01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:57.120
I'm not really related,
but he's my partner.’

01:03:57.120 --> 01:03:59.240
It was just gung-ho!

01:03:59.240 --> 01:04:01.320
My father is like,
what the hell?

01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:06.600
My mom is like, really?

01:04:06.600 --> 01:04:10.320
She didn’t have to be
the primary person.

01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:14.880
She got to see my partner
do what partners do.

01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:16.880
And boy was that
the beginning of

01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:19.880
an incredible relationship
between Scott and my mom.

01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:24.280
[Dishes clinking,
background chatter]

01:04:40.240 --> 01:04:44.240
I saw a few of John Callahan’s
drawings and work

01:04:44.240 --> 01:04:47.160
before I even realized
he’s a paraplegic.

01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.560
I ran into him and
he was in a chair.

01:04:53.560 --> 01:04:58.160
And that was long
before my accident.

01:04:58.160 --> 01:05:01.320
In no way was he gay,
but he knew of my work

01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:03.640
in Just Out,
so we connected

01:05:03.640 --> 01:05:06.920
as these two cartoonists.

01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:09.640
Years later I run into
Callahan and he goes,

01:05:09.640 --> 01:05:12.040
‘What’s up with you?’
‘Well there needs to be

01:05:12.040 --> 01:05:15.600
more than one paraplegic
cartoonist in Portland.’

01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:27.160
It was a little bit of
serendipity that I knew him,

01:05:27.160 --> 01:05:33.600
because there’s this
anger about

01:05:33.600 --> 01:05:38.160
the way you’re treated
and how it affects you,

01:05:38.160 --> 01:05:41.280
that makes it fascinating
to me to see how you

01:05:41.280 --> 01:05:43.280
represent that
in your work.

01:05:59.160 --> 01:06:00.640
- So, this is a
cartoon that I was doing

01:06:00.640 --> 01:06:04.920
at that difficult period
when I didn't know

01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:07.600
if I was going to be
able to keep affording,

01:06:07.600 --> 01:06:09.320
being able to afford
being a cartoonist.

01:06:15.600 --> 01:06:18.320
I was losing newspapers,
losing bookstores.

01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:19.600
My publisher said,
‘You know,

01:06:19.600 --> 01:06:23.920
the only sector of this industry
that's growing is graphic novels.

01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:25.280
You should write
a graphic novel.’

01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:26.880
And I thought, well,

01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:29.280
I've always wanted to tell this
story about my family.

01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:38.880
After graduating from college,
I was going through all these

01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:41.880
old family photos and in
an envelope of pictures

01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:43.880
of me and my
brother at the beach,

01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:45.560
there was also
a picture of this

01:06:45.560 --> 01:06:51.280
young man in his tighty
whities, lying on a bed.

01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:55.560
I stumbled along in
my blithe happy way

01:06:55.560 --> 01:06:56.840
coming out to my parents.

01:06:56.840 --> 01:07:04.080
I, I unearthed their dark,
hidden, painful secret

01:07:04.080 --> 01:07:08.800
that my father had
had affairs with other men.

01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:11.080
And boys, some of his
high school students,

01:07:11.080 --> 01:07:14.800
over the course
of their marriage.

01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:18.360
And then it was very shortly
after that that my father died.

01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:29.960
My mom said,
you know,

01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:31.640
I think he did it on purpose.

01:07:33.920 --> 01:07:35.040
[Skidding tires]

01:07:47.640 --> 01:07:50.000
You know, it's hard
to pinpoint the exact

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:52.000
causal relationship
between everything.

01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:55.400
But yeah,
I feel like if I hadn't,

01:07:55.400 --> 01:07:58.120
if I hadn't come out
or if I hadn't told them,

01:07:58.120 --> 01:08:00.760
things would have
happened differently,

01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:02.480
you know, he
might still be alive.

01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:04.160
I don't know.

01:08:12.160 --> 01:08:13.760
Writing Fun Home was,

01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:16.160
it was hard and
I felt a little crazy.

01:08:16.160 --> 01:08:18.440
I didn't know
what I was doing.

01:08:18.440 --> 01:08:20.760
Didn't know how to write a
serious story like that.

01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:24.160
I had Howard’s Stuck
Rubber Baby as a model,

01:08:24.160 --> 01:08:26.160
but I knew that that had
taken him years and years

01:08:26.160 --> 01:08:27.840
and driven him almost mad.

01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:34.120
I spent many, many
hours trying to recreate

01:08:34.120 --> 01:08:37.080
that blurry color photo.

01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:41.080
And then I had to
draw, you know,

01:08:41.080 --> 01:08:44.960
stuff like my father
and the casket.

01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:48.360
I posed for my dead
father in the coffin.

01:08:48.360 --> 01:08:51.040
I posed for almost
everything in that book.

01:08:51.040 --> 01:08:54.040
I mean at the time it
was just a drawing aid,

01:08:54.040 --> 01:08:56.360
but it was also a way
for me to enter into

01:08:56.360 --> 01:08:59.040
the emotional
world of the story.

01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:10.720
- I fell in love with the book.

01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:18.120
I was immediately taken by the
mere accomplishment.

01:09:20.400 --> 01:09:23.080
Then when the story
unfolded, it was like,

01:09:23.080 --> 01:09:24.400
I know this person,

01:09:24.400 --> 01:09:27.880
I always wondered
about her background.

01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:31.040
Not only is it
explaining things,

01:09:31.040 --> 01:09:33.600
I'm awestruck with
every revelation.

01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:40.640
[Phone rings]

01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:46.320
- I wasn't thinking about it
reaching a mainstream audience.

01:09:46.320 --> 01:09:49.000
I didn't know who was going
to read this weird book,

01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:51.000
you know, I hoped
that the people who

01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:54.280
read my comic strip would,
would be interested,

01:09:54.280 --> 01:09:56.320
but even that I wasn't
sure of, cause it was so

01:09:56.320 --> 01:09:59.280
different and weird and it
was becoming this much more

01:09:59.280 --> 01:10:04.280
literary sounding thing that
I thought they might not like.

01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:09.440
And then it was
actually successful.

01:10:13.120 --> 01:10:15.440
Book critics read it
and reviewed it as a book

01:10:15.440 --> 01:10:18.040
and not as a comic
book, you know?

01:10:18.040 --> 01:10:21.120
So that was a huge gift and
a part of what enabled it

01:10:21.120 --> 01:10:24.040
to reach a bigger audience.

01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:31.000
Because of how comics had
been progressing toward

01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:35.120
being taken seriously as a
literary form in recent years,

01:10:35.120 --> 01:10:37.680
Fun Home made it
over that threshold.

01:10:41.400 --> 01:10:42.720
- Time magazine voted it

01:10:42.720 --> 01:10:45.000
one of the books of
the year and I thought,

01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:47.720
Alison has really
reached the pinnacle.

01:10:47.720 --> 01:10:50.480
And then the next thing I hear
are these stirrings of a musical.

01:10:55.440 --> 01:10:56.440
[Alison Bechdel]:
It is so strange to me

01:10:56.440 --> 01:10:59.440
I don’t know how
to think about it.

01:10:59.440 --> 01:11:01.240
Like the butch
delivery woman,

01:11:01.240 --> 01:11:04.840
I once saw with my Dad
in a luncheonette--

01:11:04.840 --> 01:11:07.200
how bizarre to see that
very private and what

01:11:07.200 --> 01:11:11.800
I always thought was a super
idiosyncratic memory

01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:16.520
to see it turn into this scene
in a Broadway musical.

01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:19.120
I mean, I can't even believe
I'm saying those words.

01:11:19.120 --> 01:11:23.520
♪ Wearing your short hair
and your dungarees ♪

01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:27.040
♪ And your lace up boots ♪

01:11:27.040 --> 01:11:36.120
♪ And your keys,
your ring of keys, ♪

01:11:36.120 --> 01:11:38.000
♪ I know you ♪

01:11:39.720 --> 01:11:42.000
- It was revolutionary that
the play allowed this child

01:11:42.000 --> 01:11:45.120
to have this
moment of recognition

01:11:45.120 --> 01:11:48.720
that she’s a lesbian,
and also of desire, you know.

01:11:51.400 --> 01:11:54.680
[Rupert Kinnard]:
Me and Scott saw it with Alison.

01:11:54.680 --> 01:11:58.080
Then it’s nominated
for Tony awards.

01:11:58.080 --> 01:11:59.120
And then she wins.

01:12:01.480 --> 01:12:03.080
- It was crazy.

01:12:03.080 --> 01:12:05.800
It changed everything
and it meant I got to

01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:08.800
keep being a cartoonist.

01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:12.080
I’m not even sure whose
life I'm leading anymore.

01:12:12.080 --> 01:12:13.760
[Heartfelt music]

01:12:19.160 --> 01:12:25.480
- I had met Alison a number of
years before my accident.

01:12:25.480 --> 01:12:28.440
Once the surgery was done,
I was in a back brace.

01:12:28.440 --> 01:12:30.680
I was longing to get
back to Portland.

01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.080
Maybe a day or two
after I'd gone to work,

01:12:36.080 --> 01:12:39.680
I got a package in the mail
and I opened up the box

01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:41.080
and there was a
little card saying,

01:12:41.080 --> 01:12:42.960
I heard about
your accident and

01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:45.400
I wanted to send
you a get well card,

01:12:45.400 --> 01:12:49.920
but then I knew other people
might want to be involved in it.

01:12:49.920 --> 01:12:51.320
Love Alison.

01:12:51.320 --> 01:12:53.160
I thought this is
from Alison Bechdel.

01:12:55.080 --> 01:13:00.240
I remember opening the box
and seeing the very first panel

01:13:00.240 --> 01:13:02.560
and then pulling it,
just watching

01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:08.000
the whole string
just unfurl.

01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:10.000
And it just really,
really touched my heart

01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:12.960
because I kept
recognizing the styles of

01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:18.000
cartoonists I really
appreciated and admired.

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:21.680
I remember coming across the
original drawing by Alison,

01:13:21.680 --> 01:13:24.360
and actually one of my
favorite characters of hers,

01:13:24.360 --> 01:13:26.680
of course.

01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:31.080
I love the whimsy of the
Trina Robbins panel,

01:13:31.080 --> 01:13:33.960
and Jennifer Camper.

01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:36.640
I love the contrast of hers,
how dark they were.

01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:42.640
- You are going to have to figure
out the magic of it all.

01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:44.040
Here we go, do
you like that height?

01:13:44.040 --> 01:13:46.640
Is that horrible?

01:13:46.640 --> 01:13:49.040
A lesser man
would need a hammer.

01:13:49.040 --> 01:13:53.320
- I fancied myself as someone
who really appreciated

01:13:53.320 --> 01:13:56.320
the communities
that I was a part of.

01:13:56.320 --> 01:13:59.920
This was the first time
I so immediately felt

01:13:59.920 --> 01:14:03.000
embraced by the
cartoonist community.

01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:10.400
There's just something about
being in that community

01:14:10.400 --> 01:14:17.080
where you genuinely don't
feel like there's competition.

01:14:17.080 --> 01:14:21.080
All of the ways that we
represent the community

01:14:21.080 --> 01:14:26.680
and all of the ways our
work, um, is personal.

01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:29.360
It's yet one more thing that I
never want to take for granted.

01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:36.680
- We're no longer
token sidekicks.

01:14:36.680 --> 01:14:38.200
We're no longer
sad stories.

01:14:41.120 --> 01:14:44.200
- I got my mainstream work
because of the queer comics.

01:14:44.200 --> 01:14:45.800
I'm very proud to
have my queer roots

01:14:45.800 --> 01:14:47.480
and my mainstream roots.

01:14:47.480 --> 01:14:49.840
But now, I can
mix them together.

01:14:49.840 --> 01:14:52.840
- A lot of the people
coming to buy comics are

01:14:52.840 --> 01:14:55.240
actually parents, and
they're looking for material

01:14:55.240 --> 01:14:58.240
for their trans kid
who just came out.

01:14:58.240 --> 01:15:00.160
That's something that I
definitely did not see

01:15:00.160 --> 01:15:01.920
when I started
making comics.

01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:04.040
[Charming instrumental music]

01:15:16.040 --> 01:15:17.440
- Queer comics have really
created a space for

01:15:17.440 --> 01:15:22.120
complexity that didn't exist in
a lot of other comics.

01:15:22.120 --> 01:15:25.000
The space for different ways of
being a Person of Color,

01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:27.000
different ways of
being gendered.

01:15:27.000 --> 01:15:29.000
It was really amazing.

01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:31.120
It was like nothing
I'd ever seen before.

01:15:31.120 --> 01:15:33.560
[Charming instrumental music]