00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:10.680
[gentle music]

00:00:10.690 --> 00:00:14.060
What is more beautiful than
being right there in the heart of

00:00:14.120 --> 00:00:16.180
democracy, right?

00:00:18.260 --> 00:00:23.200
The hardest is being in the place
of power and seeing that when it

00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:25.840
comes to the rule of law, when it
comes to climate change, when it

00:00:25.900 --> 00:00:29.420
comes to migration, when it
comes to these really huge, big,

00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:35.980
important things, that we are not
managing to do what we need to do.

00:00:36.040 --> 00:00:42.360
That is extremely frustrating.

00:00:47.180 --> 00:00:51.120
It's not theoretical anymore.

00:00:51.140 --> 00:00:55.160
The changes that are
needed are urgent.

00:00:56.780 --> 00:01:02.070
They're not only urgent, they have
to be done by a new generation of,

00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:04.120
of politicians, at least.

00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:07.980
I can't say anymore, "Later
when I grow up," you know?

00:01:08.060 --> 00:01:12.130
Or, "Well, there's all these,
experienced people, they'll take

00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:17.100
care of things." There's an
expectation on my generation too

00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:23.080
now, and that makes it
all feel very, very real.

00:01:23.160 --> 00:01:35.120
[baby coos]

00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:45.660
When you combine this job with
being a mother, you don't have

00:01:45.740 --> 00:01:50.140
time for the bullshit
part of politics.

00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:54.020
In the parliament, you
have to, you have to switch

00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:55.700
constantly, right?
One moment you're with a

00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.430
journalist, the next you're in a
negotiation, the next you're on

00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.200
the radio, the next you have to
go and, and sort out an internal

00:02:02.240 --> 00:02:04.540
conflict, the next you
have to do some reading to

00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.440
prepare yourself for.

00:02:06.520 --> 00:02:09.720
Every, every moment of the day
you have to do something else, and

00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:14.500
that requires a type of energy
and concentration that's really

00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:16.560
difficult to muster.

00:02:17.740 --> 00:02:20.780
It's hard.
I wish I could spend Monday

00:02:20.820 --> 00:02:26.710
morning in my office going, "How
can I best spend this week?"

00:02:26.720 --> 00:02:30.290
[laughs]

00:02:34.900 --> 00:02:38.300
There.
All right. Program.

00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:40.560
Yeah, absolutely.
So we kick off at nine fifteen,

00:02:41.180 --> 00:02:47.940
with the, four experts that you've
got there, the OCD, shift, Indira

00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.190
Rama Sastri, the professor of law,
and, Winon Kwarflich from the,

00:02:52.540 --> 00:02:54.440
Dutch Industry Association.

00:02:55.140 --> 00:02:57.420
so that's from nine fifteen
till ten, and then at

00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:59.740
- ten the Q&A starts.
- Yeah.

00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:02.240
and I understand that you
will go first as rapporteur.

00:03:02.260 --> 00:03:05.520
So you, I think you've got
three minutes, to ask whichever

00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.600
questions, you want
to ask the panelists.

00:03:08.660 --> 00:03:10.760
Yeah.
Fine, let's go.

00:03:10.820 --> 00:03:11.860
Okay, great.

00:03:11.880 --> 00:03:15.300
- Let's have them down there.
- how are we doing for time?

00:03:15.320 --> 00:03:17.060
Do I have time to make a coffee?

00:03:17.100 --> 00:03:18.720
- Is that-
- Yeah.

00:03:18.760 --> 00:03:20.080
Okay.
So coffee, and

00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:26.520
then we go.

00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:29.120
[gentle music]

00:03:29.140 --> 00:03:32.580
European Parliament is
like a pressure cooker.

00:03:32.620 --> 00:03:37.920
It's all these people together
doing things, and it's great, but

00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:43.840
it also create a lot of pressure
to do things, to not mess up.

00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:49.240
You have a, a responsibility
towards your cause, towards the

00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:54.580
people that you work with,
because you are supposed to lead.

00:03:55.900 --> 00:03:59.430
In the European Parliament, you
hold the pen, and you're really

00:03:59.480 --> 00:04:01.300
responsible for output.

00:04:01.340 --> 00:04:06.000
You're really delivering law.
[laughs]

00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:08.060
All right, lots of interest.

00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:09.160
[laughs]

00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:12.540
- Lots of interest this morning.
- Okay, one German.

00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.630
- I'll go here I guess.
- German, okay.

00:04:15.660 --> 00:04:17.320
English?

00:04:19.060 --> 00:04:20.840
Okay.
French?

00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:24.980
Okay.
Italian?

00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.500
Yes, okay.
Danish?

00:04:29.780 --> 00:04:30.850
Good morning.
How are you?

00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:32.990
We made already.
Good morning, Lady Rapshova.

00:04:35.080 --> 00:04:35.160
[laughs]

00:04:35.180 --> 00:04:39.660
German, okay.
Romanian. Okay, thank you.

00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:44.300
- That's now ready.
- It's nine oh seven, so I commend

00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:47.260
you all for your,
punctuality this morning.

00:04:47.760 --> 00:04:48.760
[laughs]

00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.280
I think it's not a secret that
what we're going to do here is a,

00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:54.580
huge project.

00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:59.400
The goal of this legislation, how
can we make sure that, we actually

00:04:59.540 --> 00:05:03.060
now make a difference when it
comes to environmental destruction,

00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:06.240
when it comes to the protection
of human rights, when it comes to,

00:05:06.540 --> 00:05:09.490
ensuring that the way that we
do business in the twenty-first

00:05:09.540 --> 00:05:13.160
century is a sustainable
way of doing business?

00:05:13.440 --> 00:05:18.539
so how can we make sure that,
companies think from risk and from

00:05:18.620 --> 00:05:22.640
impact, rather than from where
they have the most power?

00:05:22.700 --> 00:05:26.140
Yes, we want, clarity for the
companies that need to be doing

00:05:26.200 --> 00:05:31.100
their due diligence, but, very
importantly, what we want most of

00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.740
all, and that's the, the raison
d'être of this directive, is we

00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:37.600
want impact and we
want improved outcome.

00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:40.580
My message is very simple.

00:05:41.400 --> 00:05:46.080
This proposal will not in any
way bring a level playing field.

00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:49.480
The liability provisions of
the proposal are unclear and

00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:52.100
unworkable for companies.

00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:55.400
Take the example of a, a
company building a truck.

00:05:55.440 --> 00:05:59.120
A truck may last, forty, fifty
years, may be sold twenty times in

00:05:59.180 --> 00:06:00.880
f- fourteen countries.

00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:05.920
how can you ever follow as a
company during the whole value

00:06:06.020 --> 00:06:07.240
chain your product?

00:06:07.320 --> 00:06:10.140
I think that's simply not
possible, and that has to be

00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:12.668
- looked into the face.

00:06:50.599 --> 00:06:52.488
- The real change has to come from

00:06:52.768 --> 00:06:57.628
a, a complete rethink of what
businesses do and how they do it,

00:06:58.148 --> 00:07:04.188
of what we think businesses' place
is in society, of what type of

00:07:04.228 --> 00:07:07.408
decisions we think that
boardrooms should make.

00:07:07.448 --> 00:07:12.488
And that involves a law that
forces them not to look away and

00:07:12.528 --> 00:07:16.708
that forces them to go and take
an interest in how they're making

00:07:16.747 --> 00:07:19.428
their stuff.
If you walk into a big clothing,

00:07:19.688 --> 00:07:24.528
chain, you want to know that when
you set foot in the door that what

00:07:24.568 --> 00:07:26.518
you buy there is okay.

00:07:26.518 --> 00:07:27.928
You don't wanna go check labels.

00:07:27.948 --> 00:07:29.788
You don't wanna go
to their website.

00:07:30.288 --> 00:07:33.948
and your decision on whether or
not to buy a pair of socks, that's

00:07:33.988 --> 00:07:37.788
not gonna change the world, but
the retail giants' decisions on

00:07:37.848 --> 00:07:40.908
how those socks are produced,
that can change the world.

00:08:26.588 --> 00:08:37.048
[calm music]

00:08:37.057 --> 00:08:43.768
Manon, I admire her energy
because my God, Manon is busy.

00:08:43.808 --> 00:08:46.828
Not only does she lead her group,
she is very active in French

00:08:46.868 --> 00:08:51.288
politics, so she's got enough
work for at least three jobs.

00:08:52.228 --> 00:08:57.248
And yet whenever she comes to the
negotiations, she's there and she

00:08:57.288 --> 00:09:00.638
has the energy to fight for what
she thinks, and so she has a very

00:09:00.768 --> 00:09:02.988
real motivation, I think.

00:09:04.308 --> 00:09:09.918
And Heidi, I see like a, a, an
experienced politician who doesn't

00:09:09.968 --> 00:09:15.468
need to make huge arguments or
posture or because she's been

00:09:15.508 --> 00:09:18.408
there and she's done that, and
now she'll just tell you what she

00:09:18.448 --> 00:09:19.688
thinks is right.

00:09:19.768 --> 00:09:23.108
And to me, that's always very
reassuring, you know, to have the

00:09:23.148 --> 00:09:28.208
Heidi stamp of approval because
I know that she's seen it all.

00:09:29.188 --> 00:09:32.328
Maybe I am in the
middle between them.

00:09:32.408 --> 00:09:34.088
[laughing]

00:09:35.348 --> 00:09:39.908
and I think that what's nice in
this trio is that we all bring

00:09:39.968 --> 00:09:40.808
something different to

00:09:40.848 --> 00:09:47.807
the table.

00:09:47.928 --> 00:09:53.128
You know, I remember the day when
I, when I read that, the UN had

00:09:53.188 --> 00:09:58.328
agreed that while, states have the
primary responsibility to protect

00:09:58.388 --> 00:10:01.768
human rights, companies
have a duty to respect them.

00:10:01.788 --> 00:10:05.288
And I, I said to myself, "Wow,
this is, this is really something

00:10:06.148 --> 00:10:13.018
radically new and different." But
then in 2017, some, very sort of,

00:10:13.668 --> 00:10:17.308
engaged, NGOs in Brussels came to
me and said, "Look, it's time to

00:10:17.348 --> 00:10:19.928
establish something in the
European Parliament because the

00:10:19.968 --> 00:10:23.308
Parliament could be the place
where we could do this business

00:10:23.348 --> 00:10:27.288
and human rights work and, and get
legislation in place." And I said,

00:10:27.308 --> 00:10:29.898
"Well, that's a nice
idea, so let's do it."

00:10:29.907 --> 00:10:33.928
[intriguing music]

00:10:36.048 --> 00:10:39.548
To get a majority, Heidi, Manon,
and I, we have to deal with the

00:10:39.628 --> 00:10:44.108
other political groups in
the European Parliament.

00:10:44.168 --> 00:10:47.868
And we have to find a way to get
the Liberal Democrats from Renew

00:10:47.948 --> 00:10:53.188
on board and to get the Christian
Democrats from the EPP on board.

00:10:53.228 --> 00:10:57.708
That is not the most
easy thing to do.

00:10:59.308 --> 00:11:00.868
We're under surveillance here.

00:11:00.888 --> 00:11:03.868
Anyone who doesn't take
progressive enough a position, you

00:11:03.928 --> 00:11:05.278
- know-
- So it can be a race to the most

00:11:05.278 --> 00:11:06.348
- progressive positions
- is silenced here.

00:11:07.068 --> 00:11:08.938
Exactly.
[laughing]

00:11:08.938 --> 00:11:15.460
Who can be the most ambitious
left-wing politician in the room? Okay.

00:11:24.428 --> 00:11:29.168
To me, extremely important was
that we continue to take the whole

00:11:29.208 --> 00:11:32.348
value chain approach
in all of our reports.

00:11:32.388 --> 00:11:36.138
Companies do need to look at the
entire value chain, even if it's

00:11:36.148 --> 00:11:40.358
complicated, even if it's far away,
even if it means looking at 10,000

00:11:40.358 --> 00:11:41.568
different sub-suppliers.

00:11:41.588 --> 00:11:44.638
Because if we don't do that, and
if we say, "Well, we'll just have

00:11:44.668 --> 00:11:47.868
a look at what happens in our
first tier of suppliers," then we

00:11:47.888 --> 00:11:50.008
don't get to the
source of the problems.

00:11:50.028 --> 00:11:54.418
Because the problems are often,
closer to raw materials, closer to,

00:11:54.888 --> 00:11:58.088
low-wage, countries or factories
where things are being put

00:11:58.148 --> 00:11:59.988
together to us, for us.

00:12:00.368 --> 00:12:03.528
the problems are not in
our, our sub-supplier in

00:12:03.568 --> 00:12:05.368
Luxembourg or whatever.

00:12:05.468 --> 00:12:08.844
- Um-
- I heard today from Axel Voss

00:12:08.904 --> 00:12:13.924
from the EPP that there's a, a hit
list with, legislative proposals

00:12:13.964 --> 00:12:19.354
that need to be killed, and so on
SMEs I think that, we've got a, a

00:12:19.384 --> 00:12:20.844
big battle ahead of us.

00:12:21.244 --> 00:12:25.844
what I've said is in my report is
SMEs should be included in this if

00:12:25.964 --> 00:12:29.764
they're in high-risk sectors, so
for instance, garments, footwear,

00:12:30.004 --> 00:12:32.664
but we've got a list of
what's high risk, and if

00:12:32.704 --> 00:12:38.184
- they are listed SMEs.
- But EPP, there is a total shift.

00:12:38.224 --> 00:12:42.304
Basically we are in a situation
in which contrary to the negoti-

00:12:42.344 --> 00:12:48.524
prior negotiations, either
they shut up or they block.

00:12:48.564 --> 00:12:52.904
The EPP negotiator is not
personally used time to, to, to

00:12:53.384 --> 00:12:56.524
due diligence, so it
means it's a group issue.

00:12:57.684 --> 00:13:02.824
Greens and left are obviously on
our side, but you are never sure

00:13:02.864 --> 00:13:06.684
that the Renew negotiator is
actually able to control the whole

00:13:06.764 --> 00:13:09.604
group of Renew, and
they might split.

00:13:09.624 --> 00:13:15.144
And if you lose Renew votes, I
think it's actually quite worrying,

00:13:15.504 --> 00:13:18.864
- to tell you the truth.
- We can all see that, Renew will

00:13:18.904 --> 00:13:22.504
be hugely important here, and in a
sense they are, they are kingmaker,

00:13:22.544 --> 00:13:25.764
and at the same time Renew is a
difficult group because I've still

00:13:25.784 --> 00:13:30.364
not established whether Renew
is, looking to the left or to the

00:13:30.424 --> 00:13:32.984
right, so to speak, whether
they're liberal or progressive,

00:13:33.044 --> 00:13:36.164
and I think that it's a very mixed
bag there that's difficult to do

00:13:36.204 --> 00:13:39.584
- business with.
- It's clear that the EPP puts a

00:13:39.724 --> 00:13:43.984
lot of weight politically behind
their claim that they do not want

00:13:44.004 --> 00:13:50.024
to have more legislation which
puts burden on, companies re-

00:13:50.044 --> 00:13:54.654
regardless of the topic, so in
environment, in labor, in, in due

00:13:54.684 --> 00:13:57.484
diligence, so this is
clearly their political

00:13:57.544 --> 00:13:58.884
message at the moment.

00:13:58.924 --> 00:14:03.124
- We cannot do anything more.
- EPP is difficult to do business

00:14:03.164 --> 00:14:07.904
with because we are essentially
not sure if we can trust them, and

00:14:08.024 --> 00:14:11.204
I think that there might be the,
the trick that we've seen in the

00:14:11.244 --> 00:14:14.674
past of moving us, you know,
towards a compromise and, and

00:14:15.023 --> 00:14:19.024
having us agree that we, we put
water in, in the wine only to at

00:14:19.064 --> 00:14:23.084
the end of the day, when it comes
to the vote, having us vote on a

00:14:23.124 --> 00:14:26.033
weaker proposal that then they
still vote against, and, and

00:14:26.084 --> 00:14:30.344
that's really a nasty situation to,
to be in that we need to, to avoid.

00:14:31.464 --> 00:14:45.704
[instrumental music]

00:14:45.764 --> 00:14:46.384
Hello.

00:15:34.033 --> 00:15:38.004
The Christian Democrats, I think
they've realized that the times

00:15:38.044 --> 00:15:42.334
are changing and this is gonna
happen with or without them.

00:15:42.344 --> 00:15:43.924
[speaking German]

00:15:44.044 --> 00:15:46.964
So they better get on board.

00:15:50.454 --> 00:15:53.294
But it's very difficult
negotiating with them because they

00:15:53.384 --> 00:15:57.684
have a, a group internally of
hardliners who are very, very

00:15:58.464 --> 00:16:04.194
adamantly against.
[footsteps]

00:16:04.204 --> 00:16:06.764
- Hi.
- You missed the,

00:16:07.104 --> 00:16:08.304
the critical part.
[laughs]

00:16:08.324 --> 00:16:11.604
Oh, no.
I had told them already that I

00:16:11.644 --> 00:16:12.694
- couldn't stay for the-
- Yeah, yeah.

00:16:12.694 --> 00:16:13.764
- I know
- for the whole thing, so I d- I

00:16:13.864 --> 00:16:15.804
even stayed longer
because I thought-

00:16:15.824 --> 00:16:16.664
- Yeah
- you know, they're running late

00:16:16.684 --> 00:16:18.034
and it's important.

00:16:18.044 --> 00:16:21.424
- But what happened?
- Well, now it was a- again, also

00:16:21.604 --> 00:16:25.984
this question how we can
support, the companies in a way.

00:16:26.044 --> 00:16:28.093
- Yeah.
- What I already mentioned and

00:16:28.464 --> 00:16:29.954
- what we should do-
- Yeah

00:16:30.044 --> 00:16:34.244
somehow.
And I hope, I hope we will have

00:16:34.984 --> 00:16:39.744
this time in going detailed
through all these problems what

00:16:39.944 --> 00:16:42.744
- might occur practically.
- Yeah.

00:16:42.844 --> 00:16:45.004
I hope we will take
our time for this.

00:16:45.024 --> 00:16:46.354
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We should.

00:16:46.424 --> 00:16:49.954
Oh, it's extreme
pressure from all sides.

00:16:50.144 --> 00:16:51.824
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:51.864 --> 00:16:53.004
I know.
Well, I heard it

00:16:53.064 --> 00:16:55.164
- this, morning also.
- Yeah.

00:16:55.184 --> 00:16:57.144
Whatever this means
in detail [laughs]

00:16:57.184 --> 00:16:57.444
- but-
- Yeah

00:16:57.764 --> 00:17:00.624
but this would be kind of
a goal for me, you know-

00:17:00.644 --> 00:17:02.154
- Yeah
- to convince people that they

00:17:02.684 --> 00:17:05.604
I wish I could say this is a
responsibility that we outsource

00:17:05.664 --> 00:17:06.374
- to you-
- Yes, yes, yes

00:17:06.434 --> 00:17:07.374
but it's not, it's not that simple.

00:17:07.384 --> 00:17:13.364
But, but then, so if, if we
can reach a certain point

00:17:14.464 --> 00:17:17.404
to, to balance this better
in a way, but I know-

00:17:17.424 --> 00:17:19.084
- Yeah
- I understand also you have to

00:17:19.164 --> 00:17:20.924
- serve your side-
- Yeah

00:17:21.104 --> 00:17:22.704
- also in a way.
- Yeah.

00:17:24.024 --> 00:17:26.304
It's, I mean, it's what
we said this morning.

00:17:26.324 --> 00:17:27.964
- But-
- Nobody's gonna be fully happy in

00:17:28.024 --> 00:17:28.914
- the end.
- No. No.

00:17:28.984 --> 00:17:33.894
but we, we For my side, the, the
only, the only criterion is that

00:17:33.964 --> 00:17:35.654
this it has to make a
difference, you know?

00:17:35.654 --> 00:17:37.464
- Mm-hmm.
- If we end up with something that

00:17:37.484 --> 00:17:39.514
- is so watered down on all sides-
- Yeah, yeah, yeah

00:17:39.524 --> 00:17:41.274
- that it's just, you know?
- Mm-hmm.

00:17:41.274 --> 00:17:45.564
That c- that is, that
is not a, an option.

00:17:48.864 --> 00:17:52.944
It is 3D chess in Brussels 'cause
you've got member states and they

00:17:52.964 --> 00:17:56.464
all have an opinion, and you've
got the European Commission and

00:17:56.504 --> 00:17:58.924
they've got a lot of power, and
then you've got your colleagues in

00:17:58.944 --> 00:18:02.964
the European Parliament, and some
might like you and some might not.

00:18:02.984 --> 00:18:06.364
And you need to keep everybody
happy to get to some sort of

00:18:06.384 --> 00:18:12.290
- result, and it's hard.
- Heidi, any,

00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:13.909
- on organization-
- Yeah

00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:16.420
or otherwise anything that
we still need to know?

00:18:16.560 --> 00:18:20.350
It's a good composition
and, for, for four important

00:18:20.500 --> 00:18:24.540
- MEPs from four groups.
- Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:18:24.560 --> 00:18:27.640
- All right.
- I, I think you are

00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:30.380
- more probably here.
- I'm here. Okay.

00:18:31.060 --> 00:18:34.700
- I think it is.
- Thank you for joining and coming.

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:36.360
Thank you so much for hosting this.

00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.620
- We're really, really grateful.
- Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:39.600
- Really.
- Yes.

00:18:39.620 --> 00:18:43.800
- Truly grateful.
- We, we all know we have to come

00:18:43.820 --> 00:18:46.130
- to a balanced approach, so-
- Yeah

00:18:46.150 --> 00:18:49.420
that's why, and, and we are
trying to contact a lot.

00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:51.390
- I'm so happy to hear that.
- So, yeah. Yeah.

00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.460
Well, as you will see, the, the
balance is very much in the room

00:18:54.520 --> 00:18:58.000
as well because we are really on
the one hand a business coalition.

00:18:58.040 --> 00:18:58.660
Yeah.
Yeah.

00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.440
A lot of German businesses as well.

00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:04.120
but we're also, you know,
my organization's a human

00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:05.100
- rights organization.
- Mm-hmm.

00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:06.160
- With a business background.
- Mm-hmm.

00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:07.360
But it's a human
rights organization.

00:19:07.420 --> 00:19:09.270
- Mm-hmm.
- So, that's our only

00:19:09.340 --> 00:19:10.300
- goal in the end.
- Mm-hmm.

00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:14.220
I hear a lot about
Shein these days.

00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:14.980
- Yeah.
- Is it-

00:19:15.020 --> 00:19:16.660
- It's pronounced Shein, actually.
- Shein.

00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:19.310
Yeah.
I don't know why, but that's, uh-

00:19:19.340 --> 00:19:20.820
-the way the Chinese
pronounce, pronounce it.

00:19:20.840 --> 00:19:22.700
Yes, it's, it's very difficult.

00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:24.850
They have a huge market
share now, and, uh-

00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.000
There's also lots of videos on
Instagram apparently from people

00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:32.980
buying, like, a whole
huge box of clothes-

00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:34.050
- Yes
- and then saying, "Look, I only

00:19:34.180 --> 00:19:36.140
paid five
euros [laughs]

00:19:36.150 --> 00:19:36.400
- for it"-
- Yes

00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.040
- or whatever.
- Which also means you can throw

00:19:38.060 --> 00:19:38.900
- it away again, right?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:41.800
So it's, in a lot of ways
it's, completely unsustainable.

00:19:41.840 --> 00:19:43.960
No, no, it's not something
to be, neglected.

00:19:43.970 --> 00:19:45.210
- Yeah.
- It's like the Alibaba of

00:19:45.280 --> 00:19:47.010
- clothing in a way.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:47.040 --> 00:19:48.620
I think it's a very
difficult proposition.

00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:51.380
Also from the environment point of
view although that's not my, my,

00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:53.680
- my strong point of course.
- Yeah. Landfill.

00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:54.760
Yeah.
Landfills.

00:19:54.800 --> 00:19:57.400
When we talk about cowboy
companies, and we don't want

00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.100
responsible companies being
undercut by cowboy companies, I

00:20:00.120 --> 00:20:01.940
always get the question
of, "So which ones?

00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:03.480
Which is the worst?
Is it Primark?

00:20:03.520 --> 00:20:05.720
- Is it Shein," I should say.
- Yeah.

00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:10.280
You know, that question, and it's,
yeah, at some point also we'll

00:20:10.300 --> 00:20:11.730
- have to be very clear.
- Yeah, it's the business model.

00:20:11.740 --> 00:20:13.050
The business model
just doesn't work.

00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:16.940
I mean, consumers have not
asked for throwaway garments.

00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:19.709
If the offer hadn't been
there, people wouldn't be

00:20:19.709 --> 00:20:20.630
- clamoring for it.
- Yeah, they wouldn't be saying,

00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:21.709
- "We need this." Yeah.
- No.

00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:23.060
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

00:20:23.100 --> 00:20:24.700
Why would you buy a
coat and throw it away?

00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.130
- It doesn't make sense, right?
- Yeah.

00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:28.920
But it's a bus- that's the
business model we've gotten into.

00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:31.620
- Yeah.
- So I think it's also, it makes

00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:37.339
business sense.

00:20:39.860 --> 00:20:45.580
the garment, sector has
been, listed as a high-risk,

00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:51.280
sector, and I don't think anybody,
doubts that, this is the case if

00:20:51.320 --> 00:20:53.720
we look at what has
happened in the world.

00:20:53.820 --> 00:20:57.920
For instance, the, the Rana Plaza
factory, fire and the c- the

00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:02.800
collapse of, of the roof in 2013
was a reminder of this sort of

00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.020
stark, situation.

00:21:05.060 --> 00:21:10.140
We need, the engagement of, of the
whole of the EU to, to make sure

00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:15.180
that we are not just, curing
our bad conscience of, too much

00:21:15.260 --> 00:21:20.480
consumerism, but, that we will
achieve a change in the ground, in

00:21:20.520 --> 00:21:24.740
the countries, where people
are producing for, for us.

00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:28.300
A sector that is high-risk,
highly fragmented, and

00:21:28.340 --> 00:21:30.300
also highly complex.

00:21:30.360 --> 00:21:33.240
So the, the, the fragmentation
makes it very difficult to come to

00:21:33.280 --> 00:21:36.320
collective action and to
impact, and that's why we

00:21:36.360 --> 00:21:37.720
need the directive.

00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:41.140
the concept of due diligence
is quite, is not known at all.

00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:45.020
It's, it's quite new, for
governments, labor unions, and

00:21:45.100 --> 00:21:46.100
also for manufacturers.

00:21:46.120 --> 00:21:50.120
They hope, they hope for a,
a way of working that values

00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:55.140
partnerships, but European brands
and retailers hold the keys to

00:21:55.260 --> 00:21:59.020
- real impact.
- We have also to be careful not

00:21:59.060 --> 00:22:04.980
to see the companies at the end as
a kind of an enemy and to find out

00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:09.560
also how we can help them at the
end to fulfill these goals be-

00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:16.220
because these goals are all goals
what we would like to achieve.

00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:19.880
And on this file in particular,
all those considerations are huge

00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.580
ones, of course.
We have to be prescriptive enough

00:22:22.660 --> 00:22:25.140
so that this is workable for
companies so that they know what

00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.559
is expected, and then others say
on the other hand, "No, no, we

00:22:27.620 --> 00:22:30.639
cannot be too prescriptive because
this, this directive needs to fit

00:22:30.939 --> 00:22:34.580
for everybody, so you cannot go
into too much detail." So it's a

00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:38.340
luxury for me today to reflect on
those questions because at the end

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.830
of the day, we will need to have
answers to those questions, and

00:22:41.860 --> 00:22:45.160
those answers, as Axel rightly
pointed out before, are going to

00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:49.980
- hurt for everybody.
- Well, I think, the worst kind of

00:22:50.020 --> 00:22:54.540
populism for me is, people
who say that, this will be

00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:56.360
bad for business.

00:22:57.300 --> 00:23:00.500
Why did the world, ban,
why did the United Sta-

00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:02.580
States stop slavery?

00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:04.620
was it the right time?

00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:07.500
It certainly was the right time,
and it's a, it's a, it's the right

00:23:07.560 --> 00:23:12.120
time now to, to stop, the
suffering of, of, tens of millions

00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:17.300
of people who are, in the shadow
of, of big companies that, that

00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.020
produce for us.

00:26:27.692 --> 00:26:30.172
It's interesting.
There's this kind of global echo

00:26:30.272 --> 00:26:33.432
chamber of support
to normalize Qatar.

00:26:33.892 --> 00:26:36.392
The Economist wrote
an article about this.

00:26:36.412 --> 00:26:37.732
Many newspapers.

00:26:37.772 --> 00:26:41.212
I mean, it's almost like these
political groups are being helped

00:26:41.412 --> 00:26:43.712
- by-
- Definitely. Definitely.

00:26:43.732 --> 00:26:47.312
- The media.
- Yeah, the media, the lobbies.

00:26:47.332 --> 00:26:52.512
And I mean, just look at the
capacities of the NGOs that are

00:26:52.532 --> 00:26:55.052
working on human rights abuses
and just compare it with the

00:26:55.072 --> 00:26:58.251
capacities of the companies
and of the Qatari embassy.

00:26:58.352 --> 00:26:59.852
Has nothing to do.

00:27:00.452 --> 00:27:06.412
And to say something about
the way, you know, just that

00:27:06.432 --> 00:27:09.652
they hear the story.
Because for them, those are not

00:27:09.712 --> 00:27:10.952
human stories.

00:27:10.992 --> 00:27:16.892
Those are just like a random
negotiation where the mission is

00:27:16.932 --> 00:27:19.792
- just to please Qatar.
- When you go back into the

00:27:19.832 --> 00:27:23.192
meeting, can you bring
that human dimension?

00:27:23.232 --> 00:27:24.912
That's what we always try.

00:27:24.932 --> 00:27:26.932
But they are so far away from it.

00:27:26.941 --> 00:27:29.892
They just don't care.
They were just like, okay, we've

00:27:29.992 --> 00:27:35.672
in, you know, the right wing and
EPP was just complaining that in

00:27:36.232 --> 00:27:38.932
one hour we only covered
three paragraphs and we

00:27:38.972 --> 00:27:42.452
need to get this done.
This needs to be the lowest common

00:27:42.532 --> 00:27:46.432
denominator and the smallest
resolution possible.

00:27:46.472 --> 00:27:49.132
But the only thing I care is
whether the resolution is useful

00:27:49.712 --> 00:27:51.072
for victims in Qatar.

00:27:51.492 --> 00:27:56.192
- But they don't.
- I just wonder if you'll try to

00:27:56.232 --> 00:28:00.012
appeal to their humanity again
when you go into the room.

00:28:00.022 --> 00:28:04.552
I just find that the European
Parliament is killing the humanity.

00:28:04.612 --> 00:28:08.772
I just, you know, when you sit
here in a room and you have

00:28:08.832 --> 00:28:12.312
everything you need and you've
always been in that life, it's

00:28:12.392 --> 00:28:13.432
just killing humanity.

00:28:13.472 --> 00:28:16.952
Those people don't have humanity.

00:28:17.212 --> 00:28:19.952
And I think the institution
is pushing towards it.

00:28:20.552 --> 00:28:22.772
Maybe in 15 years, if I
stay here, I'm not going to

00:28:22.812 --> 00:28:24.232
have humanity either.

00:28:24.272 --> 00:28:27.272
You need to walk out of this
parliament to have humanity.

00:28:27.292 --> 00:28:32.312
And they don't.

00:29:52.892 --> 00:29:57.592
The fact of the
matter is that if you

00:29:59.752 --> 00:30:05.192
want to get results, you cannot
make things overly personal.

00:30:05.232 --> 00:30:07.972
Your motivation has
to be very personal.

00:30:08.012 --> 00:30:11.032
Your motivation and your
outlook and your vision, those

00:30:11.052 --> 00:30:15.631
are very personal.
Those are the core of what you are.

00:30:17.436 --> 00:30:21.776
In terms of what you fight for,
what you believe in, you always

00:30:21.816 --> 00:30:24.990
have to remember why you're doing something.

00:32:03.376 --> 00:32:05.276
- It's not because you're not

00:32:05.356 --> 00:32:07.896
paying the price for your t-shirt
that someone else somewhere in the

00:32:07.956 --> 00:32:09.156
world isn't.

00:32:11.116 --> 00:32:15.876
The idea that it'd be beneficial
for our consumers to be able to

00:32:15.916 --> 00:32:19.416
buy cheap products and our
companies to have a big margin of

00:32:19.536 --> 00:32:23.896
profit without thinking about
the long term of what it is we're

00:32:23.916 --> 00:32:27.296
actually doing, I mean,
that's a kind of cannibalism

00:32:27.876 --> 00:32:30.076
capitalism, right?

00:32:41.916 --> 00:32:44.876
By way of background, the
Responsible Business Alliance is

00:32:44.916 --> 00:32:49.116
an organization dedicated to the
vision and mission of responsible

00:32:49.236 --> 00:32:50.836
business conduct.

00:32:50.896 --> 00:32:55.736
We represent eight separate
industries that do over $8

00:32:55.796 --> 00:33:01.296
trillion in total sales, and they
conduct manufacturing in over 120

00:33:01.336 --> 00:33:05.656
different countries around the
world, with large and compact

00:33:05.756 --> 00:33:09.676
supply chains numbering in
the literally of thousands and

00:33:09.776 --> 00:33:12.716
thousands of individual factories.

00:33:12.776 --> 00:33:16.476
Governments worldwide are paying
more attention than ever to supply

00:33:16.556 --> 00:33:18.116
chain management.

00:33:18.176 --> 00:33:22.426
Well-designed regulation can focus
attention to the boardroom and

00:33:22.516 --> 00:33:27.156
lift the companies that are
falling behind closer together.

00:33:27.196 --> 00:33:31.076
But an uncoordinated proliferation
of policies and laws undermines

00:33:31.116 --> 00:33:35.776
the abilities of business to
play their role by creating more

00:33:35.816 --> 00:33:42.396
confusion, more cost, and less
impact and less legal certainty.

00:33:42.746 --> 00:33:47.276
But most impactful of all for us
directly are the mandatory due

00:33:47.356 --> 00:33:51.076
diligence laws that are
popping up in jurisdictions all

00:33:51.136 --> 00:33:52.556
around the world.

00:33:53.396 --> 00:33:57.256
Ladies and gentlemen, the fastest
way to our sustainability green

00:33:57.356 --> 00:34:01.616
future is by building
on what already exists.

00:34:02.756 --> 00:34:08.396
Last night, I was at a documentary
screening called Discount Workers.

00:34:09.796 --> 00:34:14.676
And that's a documentary about
a factory fire in Pakistan.

00:34:16.176 --> 00:34:19.876
And the families of those killed,
the families that the documentary

00:34:19.956 --> 00:34:23.366
centered on, still
haven't had justice.

00:34:23.366 --> 00:34:27.696
And 15 years on, they are still
fighting through courts to get

00:34:27.796 --> 00:34:31.526
justice for those that they lost.

00:34:31.526 --> 00:34:35.235
The factory in question made
clothes for a German retailer

00:34:35.396 --> 00:34:38.916
named Customer is
King, Kik in German.

00:34:38.956 --> 00:34:40.946
You may have heard of them.

00:34:40.996 --> 00:34:45.796
That phrase, Customer is King,
sounds outdated and tone-deaf even

00:34:45.896 --> 00:34:47.776
in 2023.

00:34:49.316 --> 00:34:52.646
Now, a due diligence strategy that
never leaves the boardrooms will

00:34:52.656 --> 00:34:57.816
be blind to what is happening and
therefore will fail to stop abuse.

00:34:57.896 --> 00:35:00.326
That's what I'm asking
for here, oversight and

00:35:00.336 --> 00:35:02.576
responsible decision-making.

00:35:02.596 --> 00:35:06.436
That is the direction I want the
EU to head in, and I hope that

00:35:06.456 --> 00:35:09.366
it's a direction that we
can travel in together.

00:35:09.616 --> 00:35:16.216
- Thank you very much.
- Companies have to be aware that

00:35:16.796 --> 00:35:19.736
when they do not follow
their obligations, then there

00:35:19.756 --> 00:35:21.196
will be consequences.

00:35:21.216 --> 00:35:24.896
On every law, there needs
to be consequences if they

00:35:24.936 --> 00:35:30.156
are not followed.

00:37:35.946 --> 00:37:41.856
In 8C, it's basically our
text, but we've just added the

00:37:41.866 --> 00:37:44.165
word "insufficient."

00:37:45.586 --> 00:37:47.986
So it's already quite a concession.

00:37:49.386 --> 00:37:53.186
But wouldn't that suggest that if
there's sufficient remedial action

00:37:54.286 --> 00:37:58.836
that affected stakeholders
could not take further action?

00:37:58.846 --> 00:38:02.466
Well, that's the logic of the text
is that a court, if you come to

00:38:02.506 --> 00:38:05.046
- court-
- My character helps me a lot in

00:38:05.086 --> 00:38:10.766
knowing where I want to go, but
I'm pragmatic because I know that

00:38:10.806 --> 00:38:16.686
to get results, you have to
compromise and most of the time

00:38:17.186 --> 00:38:21.506
things will get better by,
you know, having others

00:38:21.566 --> 00:38:26.286
give input too.

00:38:26.386 --> 00:38:29.046
The worst nightmare, of course,
that the whole thing becomes a

00:38:30.266 --> 00:38:33.566
paper tiger, that it doesn't
change much, that it would be seen

00:38:33.646 --> 00:38:36.316
as a missed opportunity.

00:38:36.316 --> 00:38:41.246
You from taking further action and
that's not what we want either.

00:38:41.326 --> 00:38:43.186
So I'm okay.
I'm not sure I'm

00:38:43.226 --> 00:38:44.526
comfortable with this.

00:38:44.666 --> 00:38:48.166
- So this is to check.
- That's yeah, that's our that's

00:38:48.186 --> 00:38:50.726
the text that's been circulated
to everyone on our behalf.

00:38:50.806 --> 00:38:55.526
So we need to maybe just have in
mind how you choreography that.

00:38:55.586 --> 00:38:59.106
Labor related disputes.
Joo.

00:39:06.946 --> 00:39:08.186
Text under 5B.

00:39:21.186 --> 00:39:26.066
It will take tens, if not hundreds
of hours of negotiation and

00:39:26.146 --> 00:39:31.046
arguing, but there's quite a
strong alliance of people and

00:39:31.106 --> 00:39:33.746
organizations and companies
that work together.

00:39:33.806 --> 00:39:36.986
So if we fail, we fail together.

00:40:40.666 --> 00:40:42.226
Yeah, that's milk.

00:40:42.506 --> 00:40:44.916
This is for you.

00:40:50.966 --> 00:40:52.746
- I'm very, very lucky because I

00:40:52.806 --> 00:40:55.006
have my parents who live close by.

00:40:55.066 --> 00:40:57.686
I have my sister
who lives close by.

00:40:57.706 --> 00:40:59.686
They help me enormously.

00:41:01.046 --> 00:41:05.186
This would not be
possible without them.

00:41:06.746 --> 00:41:10.466
And then from time to time, my
husband's parents come from Greece

00:41:10.486 --> 00:41:13.026
and they stay for a while.

00:41:13.046 --> 00:41:16.147
We need all of those
people to make this work.

00:41:35.526 --> 00:41:38.346
Hi.
Hello. Hello.

00:41:39.166 --> 00:41:40.906
Okay.
Hi.

00:41:41.986 --> 00:41:45.918
- Could you talk with Heidi?
- Yesterday, yeah. Yeah.

00:41:54.186 --> 00:41:57.026
My impression is the more we go,
the more concessions we're giving

00:41:57.046 --> 00:42:00.226
them, especially we're
giving like we got the latest

00:42:00.266 --> 00:42:01.896
draft late yesterday.

00:42:01.896 --> 00:42:05.546
And I have to say that there
were a lot that were given.

00:42:05.586 --> 00:42:10.626
And I think that there's a couple
where, you know, the limit is

00:42:11.126 --> 00:42:13.386
reached now.
There again, what they're trying

00:42:13.426 --> 00:42:17.246
to do is actually rewrite what
due diligence means, right?

00:42:17.306 --> 00:42:21.466
The whole question is now we're
getting into the general package.

00:42:21.702 --> 00:42:25.222
If we were to give up on this,
this cannot be at the expense of

00:42:25.242 --> 00:42:26.882
the reversal of
burden of the proof-

00:42:26.922 --> 00:42:28.462
- Yeah
- of the administrative, uh-

00:42:28.562 --> 00:42:29.662
- Yeah
- sanction and the level of

00:42:29.742 --> 00:42:32.462
sanction, of all of the
other things that are,

00:42:32.482 --> 00:42:33.352
- that are problematic.
- Yeah.

00:42:33.362 --> 00:42:36.762
So for me, now what we need to
discuss is, like, where do we

00:42:36.802 --> 00:42:40.222
- wanna land?
- For me, if to, if we could get

00:42:40.302 --> 00:42:44.772
to a, a sort of no bullshit scope
as we discussed before, if we can

00:42:44.802 --> 00:42:50.522
divert from a disaster on, on
value chain in, in both, excluding

00:42:50.532 --> 00:42:55.162
business and in that intra-EU
thing, that Axel wants.

00:42:55.222 --> 00:42:58.552
If we can have at least three
out of four of the conditions on

00:42:58.622 --> 00:43:02.262
access to justice that I've always
said we need if we're gonna give

00:43:02.322 --> 00:43:06.822
up on, on the burden of proof, and
if we can maintain, the financial

00:43:06.922 --> 00:43:10.962
services scope, for me, I
think on, on other things, we

00:43:11.002 --> 00:43:12.262
can, we can move.

00:43:13.102 --> 00:43:15.982
let's say that, that the
things I just mentioned are

00:43:16.002 --> 00:43:17.672
sort of my red lines.

00:43:17.682 --> 00:43:23.342
Which ones do you have, to add
that, that you really feel, where,

00:43:23.362 --> 00:43:26.922
- where you, where you cannot go?
- so financial sector, I've

00:43:26.962 --> 00:43:28.122
mentioned it.

00:43:28.192 --> 00:43:31.442
the disclosure of the map- of
the mapping, of the value chain.

00:43:31.452 --> 00:43:32.482
- Yes.
- As I said, this is something

00:43:32.542 --> 00:43:36.142
that might sound small, but in
terms of small things we can get.

00:43:36.162 --> 00:43:39.362
Publication of sanction is
kind- is, is really one of the

00:43:39.382 --> 00:43:41.312
- dissuasive tool if, of course-
- Yeah

00:43:41.312 --> 00:43:45.762
if a company is known to have been
sanctioned, well, of course, this

00:43:45.882 --> 00:43:49.612
will be used, including by
investors and others, to find the

00:43:49.682 --> 00:43:51.712
- trust, of companies.
- Yeah.

00:43:51.742 --> 00:43:55.362
So now if we talk about strategy,
what I can do as a, like, first

00:43:55.582 --> 00:43:58.702
intervention is just say, "Look,
this is everything we've been

00:43:58.742 --> 00:43:59.802
- losing."
- Yeah.

00:44:00.562 --> 00:44:02.212
- just to remind everyone-
- Yeah

00:44:02.422 --> 00:44:04.562
that it's already a compromise,
that it's going into

00:44:04.902 --> 00:44:06.662
- one single direction.
- Yeah.

00:44:06.702 --> 00:44:10.462
At some point we can discuss also
the three of us, A- Heidi, you,

00:44:10.472 --> 00:44:11.362
- and me.
- Yeah.

00:44:11.402 --> 00:44:13.682
And we can agree on, like,
this is the final package

00:44:13.762 --> 00:44:14.742
- where we can land.
- Yeah.

00:44:14.752 --> 00:44:18.282
And then you can have also
separate discussion with, with EPP

00:44:18.302 --> 00:44:20.482
and Renew, and to
test bilaterally-

00:44:20.502 --> 00:44:23.662
- Yeah
- how far we can go on the And I

00:44:23.682 --> 00:44:27.272
would not set an agreement as
long as all of those things

00:44:27.442 --> 00:44:28.662
are on the table.

00:44:28.682 --> 00:44:30.001
And I think it's, it's fine.

00:44:30.022 --> 00:44:32.982
They can also understand that you
want to cooperate with the left as

00:44:33.062 --> 00:44:35.882
much as you want to cooperate
with, with the right-wing.

00:44:36.131 --> 00:44:39.502
but we'll need that because, again,
if we have a package and we lose

00:44:39.542 --> 00:44:41.672
- on all of this fronts, then-
- Yeah

00:44:41.692 --> 00:44:43.442
- I mean, we're out.
- Yeah.

00:44:43.502 --> 00:44:44.662
All right.
Well-

00:44:44.682 --> 00:44:45.351
- Good.
- See you next-

00:44:45.351 --> 00:44:47.402
- May the force be with you.
- Yeah.

00:44:47.602 --> 00:44:47.822
[laughs]

00:44:47.842 --> 00:44:48.522
You too.

00:44:48.542 --> 00:44:49.822
[laughs]

00:44:49.842 --> 00:44:52.922
Well, this is That should be
the correct wording, right?

00:44:52.982 --> 00:44:54.822
- Sorry?
- May the force be with us.

00:44:54.862 --> 00:44:56.032
- With us, yeah.
- That's the correct wording.

00:44:56.042 --> 00:44:58.422
Or, those who are
going to die greet you.

00:44:58.462 --> 00:44:59.762
Yeah.
[laughs]

00:45:00.422 --> 00:45:02.042
All right.

00:45:02.862 --> 00:45:51.622
[instrumental music]

00:46:00.222 --> 00:46:04.442
A thorough, candy supply
chain going on. Yeah. Okay.

00:46:04.482 --> 00:46:08.182
Well, our rooms are getting bigger
and, and bigger as we progress.

00:46:08.192 --> 00:46:08.202
[laughs]

00:46:08.222 --> 00:46:10.462
Now the stakes are
really high, you know?

00:46:10.532 --> 00:46:11.402
- Yeah.
- We have to feel it.

00:46:11.422 --> 00:46:12.152
That's right.
Yeah.

00:46:12.182 --> 00:46:15.642
All right.
I will go and, and get installed.

00:46:15.682 --> 00:46:16.752
We will wait for
the others- [laughs]

00:46:16.762 --> 00:46:19.382
a little bit.
And, yeah.

00:46:19.402 --> 00:46:21.962
We should have something
like a kind of a water-

00:46:21.982 --> 00:46:23.992
- Pistol?
- just to

00:46:24.022 --> 00:46:25.172
[laughs]
[laughs]

00:46:25.202 --> 00:46:28.402
Look, if I'd known, if I'd known
that, you know, anything was

00:46:28.442 --> 00:46:29.992
allowed at this point.
[laughs]

00:46:29.992 --> 00:46:34.122
[laughs]

00:46:35.882 --> 00:46:38.472
Axel's brought a
massive amount of M&M's.

00:46:38.902 --> 00:46:52.182
[laughs]

00:46:52.882 --> 00:46:55.442
All right.
Thanks all for, for being here.

00:46:55.482 --> 00:46:59.222
Thank you also to those
joining us, online.

00:46:59.322 --> 00:47:04.322
As you will know, this, is a
bit of a special Shadows meeting

00:47:04.482 --> 00:47:07.982
because potentially this is
our last Shadows meeting.

00:47:08.022 --> 00:47:11.962
We found it important to make sure
that, we've got enough time to be

00:47:12.042 --> 00:47:16.202
able to have an overview of
issues that are still, sensitive

00:47:16.222 --> 00:47:19.362
politically and that we haven't
been able to resolve thus far, and

00:47:19.502 --> 00:47:21.652
I think that helps our work
because at the end of the day, I

00:47:21.722 --> 00:47:26.662
think, everyone at the end of this
meeting needs to look at what's on

00:47:26.702 --> 00:47:31.182
the table and judge whether or not,
they think that that's acceptable

00:47:31.242 --> 00:47:38.642
to their political group.
[instrumental music]

00:47:38.722 --> 00:47:43.602
At some point, we will have to
look at whether the glass is half

00:47:43.662 --> 00:47:48.362
full or whether it's half
empty, and that's a classic

00:47:48.402 --> 00:47:50.382
problem in politics.

00:47:50.422 --> 00:47:54.512
Do you say, "This is not good
enough, I'm not signing at the

00:47:54.582 --> 00:47:58.542
dotted line"?
Or do you say, "It's not what I

00:47:58.622 --> 00:48:04.362
wanted, but it's a step
forward, and so I'm signing"?

00:48:06.442 --> 00:48:12.302
So just for your information, the
EPP will vote against Article 8A.

00:48:12.362 --> 00:48:17.172
To my knowledge, EPP not
supporting the compromise on 8A is,

00:48:17.202 --> 00:48:21.562
is new information, so I, I don't
think we, we were aware of that.

00:48:44.274 --> 00:48:46.854
Heidi wants the floor in
Manon, so we'll do that first.

00:48:46.874 --> 00:48:52.074
But overall, I think, the
compromise including the new

00:48:52.134 --> 00:48:55.374
Article 8A is
acceptable to us.

00:48:56.254 --> 00:48:58.974
- Then we'll go to ECR on this.

00:49:09.194 --> 00:49:10.634
Thank you very much.

00:49:10.654 --> 00:49:13.834
- And then Manon.
- I promise I will mention this

00:49:13.894 --> 00:49:16.674
only once, but I think it's good
to remind where we are at this

00:49:16.734 --> 00:49:19.514
stage because the text
has been moving a lot.

00:49:19.534 --> 00:49:22.834
Essentially, to please EPP and
Renew, I do think this is a-

00:49:22.874 --> 00:49:27.744
already a heavy cost that we are,
paying as we're moving towards the

00:49:27.774 --> 00:49:32.154
finalization of the text, and I
don't think those compromises have

00:49:32.254 --> 00:49:34.794
been done in exchange
of something else.

00:49:35.194 --> 00:49:37.414
- That's where you could-
- You-- Axel, you wouldn't, you

00:49:37.474 --> 00:49:40.034
wouldn't be against
the good governance.

00:49:40.074 --> 00:49:42.654
You cannot.

00:49:43.074 --> 00:49:48.454
- I don't see why we should align.
- points not to convince my party,

00:49:48.514 --> 00:49:51.904
- then-
- How can we help you to convince

00:49:51.994 --> 00:49:53.514
your party?

00:49:53.584 --> 00:49:54.734
[laughs]

00:49:55.574 --> 00:49:58.954
But we, but we have, we have given
many, many concessions to you,

00:49:59.034 --> 00:50:00.694
even today.

00:50:00.734 --> 00:50:01.544
- You know?
- I can't do this.

00:50:01.754 --> 00:50:01.764
[laughs]

00:50:01.794 --> 00:50:06.644
So from your side, a bit
flexibility might be a nice

00:50:08.774 --> 00:50:10.474
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:11.354 --> 00:50:12.994
okay.
All right.

00:50:13.034 --> 00:50:17.494
And the SMEs, I think you
got most what you wanted.

00:50:17.504 --> 00:50:21.094
- SMEs?
- Which was the issue for you.

00:50:21.174 --> 00:50:24.314
So I've, I've actually got a
proposal to make on the financial

00:50:24.354 --> 00:50:27.314
sector, but I'm going to park that,
and we're gonna come to it because

00:50:27.514 --> 00:50:31.384
we need to make the most of our
time with Raphael and with Timo.

00:50:31.773 --> 00:50:35.774
Talk about the annexes on human
rights and on environmental impact.

00:50:36.334 --> 00:50:39.774
We'll go first to Timo online.

00:50:39.854 --> 00:50:41.894
- So Timo.
- Okay.

00:50:41.914 --> 00:50:44.313
Thank you very much, Lara.

00:50:44.414 --> 00:50:49.574
I cannot support, more
watering down of the language.

00:50:49.654 --> 00:50:53.614
If this is going to happen, I
will not vote in favor of this.

00:50:54.434 --> 00:50:58.894
I didn't do this to keep the EPP
on board, and they said in the

00:50:58.934 --> 00:51:03.414
last second, "We are out." And I
am not going to risk this again.

00:51:03.534 --> 00:51:09.214
I don't want to be humiliated and,
so to be pretty clear, for me,

00:51:09.294 --> 00:51:10.774
this is not an option.

00:51:10.874 --> 00:51:15.074
So, and Axel, sorry, everything,
you say, it sounds like you will

00:51:15.174 --> 00:51:18.623
try your utmost with your
group, but there is literally

00:51:18.694 --> 00:51:22.334
no guarantee.
You can call me stupid, but this

00:51:22.394 --> 00:51:25.574
is not gonna happen again.
Sorry.

00:51:27.654 --> 00:51:30.934
Okay.
let's say, let's say ten minutes

00:51:31.014 --> 00:51:35.614
so that, that there's a bit of
time, and then we will, we'll come

00:51:35.674 --> 00:51:37.794
- back to this.
- Yeah.

00:51:37.994 --> 00:51:39.254
But still...
[inaudible]

00:51:39.254 --> 00:51:40.814
- They will, but again, now we're

00:51:40.854 --> 00:51:44.494
in the situation where EPP have to
choose if they're, if they're in

00:51:44.514 --> 00:51:48.154
or out.
and I don't Exactly, and I don't

00:51:48.174 --> 00:51:51.134
want things to get I mean, I
understand people's emotions, but

00:51:51.214 --> 00:51:54.494
I, I do think it's important
that we deescalate a little bit.

00:51:54.514 --> 00:51:55.074
Yeah.
Yeah.

00:51:55.734 --> 00:51:57.354
- so-
- I mean, the question will come

00:51:57.374 --> 00:51:58.894
to the final package.

00:51:58.914 --> 00:51:59.524
- Um-
- Yeah.

00:51:59.534 --> 00:52:01.474
Ready to vote the way today?

00:52:01.694 --> 00:52:08.123
- Yeah.
- I mean, in the other can be, I

00:52:08.274 --> 00:52:10.134
don't know, harmful chemicals.

00:52:10.174 --> 00:52:11.674
I don't know.
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you

00:52:11.694 --> 00:52:14.394
- a crazy question now.
- Well, this house will

00:52:14.534 --> 00:52:16.054
- not have a chairman.
- Yeah.

00:52:16.114 --> 00:52:18.514
So for that, I
wouldn't get attached.

00:52:18.534 --> 00:52:22.114
We need to, we need to
re-redraft also with your help.

00:52:22.314 --> 00:52:24.414
- Mm-hmm.
- but we, we continue now with the

00:52:24.474 --> 00:52:26.634
- next, with the next point.
- What we discussed-

00:52:27.894 --> 00:52:32.534
Could we, return to,
our plenary setting?

00:52:36.964 --> 00:52:39.954
Perhaps we start with Renew
because this was your, this was

00:52:40.014 --> 00:52:43.034
- your request.
- Companies should disclose how

00:52:43.114 --> 00:52:47.174
they identify risk across their
value chain instead of the mapping

00:52:47.194 --> 00:52:50.974
of the value chain, which is as,
as Axel said, I think in that we

00:52:51.034 --> 00:52:53.314
agree that it will be
overburdening when it

00:52:53.334 --> 00:52:55.254
comes to bureaucracy.
But they have the responsibility

00:52:55.274 --> 00:52:59.314
at the same time to identify those
risk, and maybe that could be a, a

00:52:59.414 --> 00:53:02.634
good way forward for
EPP and for the others.

00:53:04.394 --> 00:53:06.274
Maybe you can repeat
what you proposed.

00:53:07.154 --> 00:53:08.754
Yes.
So instead of talking about or

00:53:08.874 --> 00:53:13.414
asking companies to do a mapping
over their value chain, we suggest

00:53:13.434 --> 00:53:18.254
to eliminate that and to say that
companies should disclose how they

00:53:18.294 --> 00:53:21.754
identify risk across
their value chain.

00:53:33.034 --> 00:53:38.214
I, I don't see any due diligence
without a mapping of your whole

00:53:38.254 --> 00:53:42.554
value chain, of where, you know,
your products are produced and

00:53:42.954 --> 00:53:46.114
where you source your, your
everything you need to produce

00:53:46.174 --> 00:53:47.814
whatever you produce.

00:53:48.314 --> 00:53:52.014
so I think it-- we should make
it clear that this is needed.

00:53:52.054 --> 00:53:54.894
The question is whether
you make it public or not.

00:53:55.314 --> 00:53:59.354
If you as a company identify risk
across their value chain, what do

00:53:59.394 --> 00:54:00.854
you think most of the
companies are gonna do?

00:54:02.134 --> 00:54:05.794
Well, if they have, an obligation
to publish it, if they fail to do

00:54:05.854 --> 00:54:07.174
- so-
- They're gonna do mapping of all

00:54:07.274 --> 00:54:08.294
the companies if
you ask them to do-

00:54:08.354 --> 00:54:11.334
Well, if they don't do the mapping,
then they, they're failing their,

00:54:11.354 --> 00:54:12.074
- their due diligence.
- Then they have to identify the

00:54:12.114 --> 00:54:14.404
- risk across their value chain.
- So then-

00:54:14.404 --> 00:54:16.414
Which is what we're actually
trying to do to prevent that

00:54:16.454 --> 00:54:19.434
- something happens.
- Well, if they, if they don't do

00:54:19.454 --> 00:54:22.334
the mapping, then they would fail
their obligation of due diligence.

00:54:22.394 --> 00:54:25.414
So they just have to say, "I'm
doing a mapping, but I'm not gonna

00:54:25.454 --> 00:54:26.594
tell you what is my mapping.

00:54:26.614 --> 00:54:29.434
- But I'm doing it." And then-
- But then you disclose your risk

00:54:29.682 --> 00:54:31.502
Yeah, and you disclose your risk.

00:54:31.542 --> 00:54:32.582
You say that you do a mapping.

00:54:32.602 --> 00:54:35.202
An auditor will check that
you've done your mapping.

00:54:35.242 --> 00:54:38.942
- If we say should disclose-
- Then there's no disclosure.

00:54:38.962 --> 00:54:41.702
If we scrap that whole
thing, there's no disclosure.

00:54:42.562 --> 00:54:47.242
The last move that we could do is,
is to add a reference so that it

00:54:47.322 --> 00:54:50.482
kind of protects
you and your groups.

00:54:50.802 --> 00:54:55.062
we add a reference to the, secret
trade di- directive to ensure that

00:54:55.102 --> 00:54:59.902
it doesn't, you know, sell
any, any sensitive information.

00:54:59.942 --> 00:55:03.772
So, like using one of your
arguments into your direction if

00:55:03.822 --> 00:55:06.342
it was to, to find
something central.

00:55:06.362 --> 00:55:11.002
But again, this is obviously
not my favorite option.

00:55:11.602 --> 00:55:18.382
I'm a little bit concerned that we
are adding point for point to give

00:55:18.442 --> 00:55:21.442
us a reason to vote
against everything.

00:55:22.782 --> 00:55:28.742
why exaggerating everything again
and again to all these issues whi-

00:55:29.042 --> 00:55:32.242
really not important for
the due diligence process?

00:55:32.262 --> 00:55:38.242
Why not leaving the freedom for
companies, how they are doing the

00:55:38.382 --> 00:55:41.252
due diligence process
after all these criterias?

00:55:41.302 --> 00:55:44.802
Now you would like to map
and disclose and so on.

00:55:45.002 --> 00:55:47.942
So it's totally not necessary.

00:55:47.962 --> 00:55:53.422
But coming back to your
question, no, I'm not in favor.

00:55:53.742 --> 00:56:01.042
[crowd chatter]

00:57:19.192 --> 00:57:25.942
Your job as member of parliament
is, chief energy officer.

00:57:25.982 --> 00:57:28.672
You have to bring the
energy to the fight, and

00:57:28.762 --> 00:57:29.822
sometimes that's hard.

00:57:29.882 --> 00:57:33.242
Sometimes you're you feel tired,
or you feel like you don't know

00:57:33.662 --> 00:57:38.502
how you're gonna resolve a problem,
but you, you shouldn't show it,

00:57:38.842 --> 00:57:41.262
'cause if you show it, then
it's like dominoes, you know?

00:57:41.322 --> 00:57:43.042
Other people won't
believe anymore either.

00:57:43.622 --> 00:57:46.402
But if not, you might have two
voting lists, one with the actual

00:57:46.422 --> 00:57:49.702
voting indication and then
the other one with the-

00:57:52.102 --> 00:57:57.922
Look, I mean, I'm going into
negotiations on due diligence,

00:57:58.382 --> 00:58:01.762
a re-election, and then there's
going to be another baby.

00:58:01.922 --> 00:58:05.702
I know that this is too much.

00:58:05.842 --> 00:58:09.562
I, I'm, I'm
aware, [laughs]

00:58:09.682 --> 00:58:15.142
but, I'm a very, I guess,
optimistic person, and for the

00:58:15.182 --> 00:58:18.402
moment I'm just thinking,
"Okay, I've done this before.

00:58:18.442 --> 00:58:19.702
We, we will manage."

00:58:19.722 --> 00:58:23.212
[piano playing]

00:58:26.802 --> 00:58:27.262
Okay.

00:58:27.272 --> 00:58:42.242
[laughs]

00:58:42.252 --> 00:58:46.602
To me, it's the, the biggest
challenge in the European

00:58:46.662 --> 00:58:51.162
Parliament, and that's aside from
the battles between left and right.

00:58:51.182 --> 00:58:57.402
It's fighting against
an established order.

00:58:57.472 --> 00:59:06.542
[upbeat music]

00:59:06.602 --> 00:59:11.142
When it really gets real,
everyone fights for everything.

00:59:11.202 --> 00:59:14.242
Everyone is trying to get
as many as they can, and it

00:59:14.262 --> 00:59:17.262
becomes more tense.

00:59:18.502 --> 00:59:46.802
[upbeat music]

00:59:46.842 --> 00:59:52.282
Finally, very late at night, we
reached a compromise, and all big

00:59:52.322 --> 00:59:57.802
political groups have signed
up to the deal that we made.

01:00:00.362 --> 01:00:04.562
This morning when I woke up, I
said to myself, "Please make it so

01:00:04.642 --> 01:00:09.062
that I don't find out that because
it was very late, because we were

01:00:09.102 --> 01:00:13.822
exhausted, that something slipped,
that we did something wrong, that

01:00:13.862 --> 01:00:16.302
we forgot about something."

01:00:21.122 --> 01:00:42.642
[laughs]

01:00:43.210 --> 01:00:46.770
Wartet ab, es ist nicht so schlimm,
wie ihr euch das vorstellt.

01:00:47.470 --> 01:00:52.190
It's gonna be really scary because
even though we've got a broad

01:00:52.260 --> 01:00:59.110
consensus, ähm, that consensus was

01:00:59.169 --> 01:01:04.230
made between the five most
important people in the room.

01:01:04.240 --> 01:01:07.870
There's a wider world in the
parliament of people following

01:01:07.950 --> 01:01:11.670
this, and it's a very active world.

01:01:11.740 --> 01:01:16.330
This is not something that
people don't know about.

01:01:16.390 --> 01:01:20.090
So all of us, we have to go back
to our groups and especially with

01:01:20.130 --> 01:01:23.510
the Christian Democrats and
especially in the, in the liberal

01:01:23.590 --> 01:01:30.090
group, um, there will be a lot
of people who will have their own

01:01:31.790 --> 01:01:37.690
obsessions, their own hobby horses,
and who will make up their mind

01:01:38.670 --> 01:01:41.270
independently of what we did.

01:01:41.290 --> 01:01:45.070
And keeping all those frogs in the
wheelbarrow, as we say in Dutch,

01:01:45.130 --> 01:01:49.210
is gonna be really, really tough.

01:03:43.470 --> 01:03:45.270
Hallo Lara!

01:03:45.350 --> 01:03:49.900
So I, I think you are alarmed
a bit by the developments

01:03:49.950 --> 01:03:52.430
- in the EPP group.
- Yeah-

01:03:52.439 --> 01:03:54.590
- Yes.
- -it's an understatement. Yeah.

01:03:54.630 --> 01:03:58.730
Yes, yes.
So we are still trying to stick to

01:03:58.790 --> 01:04:02.790
this, ah, compromise,
but it's getting harder.

01:04:03.030 --> 01:04:05.360
- So it's getting worse.
- Yeah.

01:04:05.810 --> 01:04:07.550
- Yeah.
- Yesterday I was up, I was up

01:04:07.570 --> 01:04:09.790
- until midnight counting-
- Yeah.

01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:12.180
-and I, I have not, I'm not
convinced at the moment.

01:04:12.210 --> 01:04:15.430
To me, it looks, it looks really,
yeah, it looks really bad.

01:04:15.450 --> 01:04:16.870
- Yeah.
- Um...

01:04:17.210 --> 01:04:22.430
Something going on what I
can't really influence then.

01:04:22.910 --> 01:04:26.430
- Yeah.
- Yeah. And it seems that also the

01:04:26.550 --> 01:04:32.350
chair of the German CDU
will be now also involved.

01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:36.700
And so this is where I'm getting
more and more confused because I--

01:04:36.730 --> 01:04:41.159
we had the feedback that one or
two of the biggest groups in the,

01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:46.070
or delegations of the EPP, ähm,
would have been supported these

01:04:46.170 --> 01:04:48.710
and also some smaller ones.

01:04:48.730 --> 01:04:49.460
- But then-
- Yeah.

01:04:49.460 --> 01:04:55.590
-all of a sudden, I got different
signals from different persons so

01:04:55.670 --> 01:04:56.010
- that-
- Yeah.

01:04:56.020 --> 01:04:58.830
-we have to clarify this.

01:04:58.970 --> 01:05:05.940
Um, so I'm still trying to
reach, um, also delegations from

01:05:06.030 --> 01:05:12.570
my group still and trying also
to argue in what is the negative

01:05:12.630 --> 01:05:16.070
- impact of these and so on.
- Yeah.

01:05:16.130 --> 01:05:19.890
- Um, yeah.
- Okay.

01:05:19.970 --> 01:05:23.510
- So let's go step by step.
- Yeah, yeah.

01:05:23.530 --> 01:05:24.350
- Yeah.
- Okay.

01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:25.290
- Okay.
- Overheight.

01:05:25.410 --> 01:05:26.600
- Yes.
- Good luck today.

01:05:26.610 --> 01:05:27.579
Yes.
Thanks-

01:05:27.579 --> 01:05:28.760
- Okay then.
- -Lara for you too.

01:05:28.810 --> 01:05:31.150
- And, uh-
- Yeah.

01:05:31.160 --> 01:05:33.770
-yeah, if we have to
come back to each other,

01:05:33.810 --> 01:05:38.870
then we will.

01:05:57.590 --> 01:06:01.030
So far.
Okay.

01:06:01.450 --> 01:06:01.470
[laughs]

01:06:42.630 --> 01:06:47.490
So, um, we, um, have
a kind of a very, um,

01:06:48.170 --> 01:06:54.950
yeah, wonderful discussion in
the European in the EPP group

01:06:55.090 --> 01:07:01.850
especially so we are probably
the most affected group where we

01:07:02.070 --> 01:07:04.550
are splitted in a way.

01:07:04.650 --> 01:07:10.270
So the discussions has been
ongoing and from my point of view

01:07:10.410 --> 01:07:17.010
several delegations are very
supportive to this compromise.

01:07:17.650 --> 01:07:24.370
Others are strictly
against and some of our

01:07:24.410 --> 01:07:28.710
colleagues in the EPP group would
like to go even further than what

01:07:28.750 --> 01:07:30.710
we have achieved.

01:07:30.790 --> 01:07:37.790
So that's why we have a kind of
a mixed situation and this is

01:07:39.410 --> 01:07:42.330
that we should discuss these ones.

01:07:42.350 --> 01:07:47.370
And that's why we offered this
appointment this morning, just to

01:07:47.450 --> 01:07:52.110
have a kind of a or getting
a kind of a better overview.

01:07:52.210 --> 01:07:57.730
So I'm now asking myself
if we can go through the

01:07:57.770 --> 01:08:02.950
details already.
Yeah.

01:08:03.490 --> 01:08:08.650
But please let me explain at the
beginning that there has been a

01:08:08.710 --> 01:08:12.590
lot of attention given
to the four main issues.

01:08:12.630 --> 01:08:15.990
So one of them is
full harmonisation.

01:08:16.030 --> 01:08:18.950
The second one is the scope.

01:08:18.970 --> 01:08:25.910
The third is the
so-called value chain.

01:12:18.750 --> 01:12:20.090
Oké, let's go.

01:12:20.110 --> 01:12:23.350
- How bad is it?
- We've got some from ECR.

01:12:23.430 --> 01:12:24.590
Fourteen from ECR.

01:12:24.650 --> 01:12:26.810
Yeah, we've got three from ID.

01:12:26.890 --> 01:12:29.330
Yeah, we've got.

01:12:29.390 --> 01:12:31.070
I'd say fifteen from Nibbler.

01:12:31.090 --> 01:12:33.490
I mean, it's a mixture between
separate votes and amendments.

01:12:33.730 --> 01:12:36.630
Yeah.
Lageve has seven.

01:12:36.690 --> 01:12:40.270
You have nibbler amendments
on scope going up to 1000.

01:12:40.610 --> 01:12:43.710
Yeah.
You've got nibbler amendments on

01:12:44.110 --> 01:12:46.700
value chain scrapping
downstream value chain.

01:12:46.910 --> 01:12:48.190
Yeah.
And up to 1000.

01:12:48.210 --> 01:12:49.670
You mean upwards of one thousand?

01:12:50.030 --> 01:12:52.610
- Companies above 1000 employees?
- Yeah.

01:12:53.198 --> 01:12:58.098
So at least those two are maybe
like really heart of the reactor.

01:12:58.158 --> 01:13:00.768
On those nibbler ones, I
think, you know, part of EPP,

01:13:00.798 --> 01:13:02.818
part some few renew.

01:13:02.888 --> 01:13:07.018
And I think on the Glavajova ones,
part some few renew and tempting

01:13:07.058 --> 01:13:07.998
to EPP.
So-

01:13:08.058 --> 01:13:09.098
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

01:13:09.118 --> 01:13:11.398
The tempting to EPP
part is important.

01:13:11.558 --> 01:13:12.698
- Yes.
- Well, yeah, but also I would

01:13:12.718 --> 01:13:15.478
like their voting
list is, you know-

01:13:15.498 --> 01:13:17.318
- Exactly, yeah
- respects the deal-

01:13:17.358 --> 01:13:18.488
- Exactly
- and that.

01:13:19.958 --> 01:13:23.278
Then you have another Glavajova
amendment, which is the following

01:13:23.358 --> 01:13:28.698
one, which excludes SMEs from
com- well, European SMEs.

01:13:28.758 --> 01:13:32.258
It says that when you are a com-
a big company within the scope-

01:13:32.358 --> 01:13:33.578
- Yeah
- and you're doing due diligence-

01:13:33.598 --> 01:13:35.178
- Yeah
- you're not doing due diligence

01:13:35.258 --> 01:13:37.538
- on the SMEs you're working with.
- Ugh.

01:13:37.578 --> 01:13:40.318
- So basically, she's like, I am-
- Cut the SMEs out of the whole

01:13:40.358 --> 01:13:42.538
- thing
- I am the voice of SMEs, and

01:13:42.618 --> 01:13:45.018
since you've done
what I wanted on SMEs-

01:13:45.028 --> 01:13:46.638
- Mm-hmm
- I'm gonna politically-

01:13:46.648 --> 01:13:48.118
- Yeah
- just put in a bullshit point on

01:13:48.238 --> 01:13:49.598
- SMEs again.
- And this, this one makes no

01:13:49.638 --> 01:13:53.038
logical sense because this means
that anyone wanting to import

01:13:53.098 --> 01:13:56.168
anything in the EU can import it
through an SME and doesn't have to

01:13:56.168 --> 01:13:57.098
do due diligence on it.

01:13:57.118 --> 01:13:58.128
[laughs]

01:13:58.128 --> 01:14:00.958
- No.
- That means you create a shelter.

01:14:00.998 --> 01:14:03.228
Like, that's, that's
a giant loophole-

01:14:03.318 --> 01:14:03.918
- Yeah
- she's creating.

01:14:03.938 --> 01:14:04.718
Yeah.
So the-

01:14:04.738 --> 01:14:07.318
- So it's-
- So And also, so what we saw

01:14:07.338 --> 01:14:12.818
- yesterday, basically-
- It means that if you wanna do

01:14:12.858 --> 01:14:16.838
business with a factory in, in
Bangladesh, you can, you can have

01:14:16.858 --> 01:14:18.408
- an SME-
- Yeah, yeah, yeah

01:14:18.448 --> 01:14:19.808
- do the importing.
- Yeah. Yeah.

01:14:19.808 --> 01:14:22.358
And then your relation with a
European SME, you don't need to

01:14:22.378 --> 01:14:23.808
- look into it.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:23.818 --> 01:14:25.358
- Okay, great.
- So it just means that you're-

01:14:25.368 --> 01:14:28.158
- Yeah
- creating, like, paravent.

01:14:28.178 --> 01:14:28.618
[laughs]

01:14:28.638 --> 01:14:31.738
- Yeah.
- Then you have a nibbler one,

01:14:31.758 --> 01:14:33.218
which is the last one.

01:14:33.278 --> 01:14:34.638
- Um-
- It's really incredible, and all

01:14:34.678 --> 01:14:36.958
this time she has never
reached out to me.

01:14:36.978 --> 01:14:38.578
She has never asked
me for a coffee.

01:14:38.588 --> 01:14:40.018
- Yeah.
- She has never sent me any

01:14:40.218 --> 01:14:42.138
- position or whatever.
- It's not the interest in

01:14:42.158 --> 01:14:43.578
actually amending the legislation.

01:14:43.598 --> 01:14:44.328
- It's, it's-
- No, no, no, yeah

01:14:44.328 --> 01:14:45.298
you know.
If you wanted to have a

01:14:45.338 --> 01:14:47.018
constructive discussion
about the position-

01:14:47.038 --> 01:14:47.578
- Yeah
- but that's not the

01:14:47.638 --> 01:14:49.038
- objective of this.
- Yeah.

01:14:49.058 --> 01:14:50.178
- Yeah, yeah.
- So-

01:14:50.218 --> 01:14:51.638
No.
And the objective is also clearly

01:14:51.658 --> 01:14:52.788
- political, right?
- It's a political signal.

01:14:52.788 --> 01:14:55.017
"Look at me.
Look at me fighting for-

01:14:55.058 --> 01:14:57.618
- It's a political signal
- German companies." Yeah.

01:14:57.658 --> 01:15:00.258
It's a political signal, and
it's also to cause chaos.

01:15:00.318 --> 01:15:00.868
Yeah.
Yeah.

01:15:00.898 --> 01:15:03.738
It's clearly intended to
cause chaos at the vote.

01:15:03.798 --> 01:15:04.798
So- [speaking
foreign language]

01:15:06.478 --> 01:15:07.748
Oh.
Yeah.

01:15:07.778 --> 01:15:09.878
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- We start again after the hearing?

01:15:09.958 --> 01:15:12.078
Yeah.
And I, I'm one of the first

01:15:12.178 --> 01:15:14.658
speakers, so you guys m-
might, might even wanna

01:15:14.698 --> 01:15:16.648
- consider staying here.
- I've kept my 1:00 meeting-

01:15:16.648 --> 01:15:19.538
- It's a little bit rude
- so I'll be available again at

01:15:19.598 --> 01:15:22.028
- 5:00, in 30 minutes.
- Fine.

01:15:22.038 --> 01:15:23.378
Let's do 5:00.
Yeah.

01:15:23.387 --> 01:15:24.188
- Okay.
- Can we do 5:00 in your

01:15:24.418 --> 01:15:31.238
- office, Lara?
- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:15:37.718 --> 01:15:41.638
If you're a spectator and
you read the newspaper, you

01:15:41.698 --> 01:15:42.818
can be frustrated.

01:15:42.838 --> 01:15:46.878
You can say, "These guys in power,
they're not delivering." When

01:15:46.918 --> 01:15:52.138
you're there and you want to make
a difference, but you see things

01:15:52.518 --> 01:15:57.218
playing out wrong in front of your
eyes, it's very, very frustrating.

01:15:59.138 --> 01:16:02.637
Even, even if we
wanted to be assholes

01:16:02.678 --> 01:16:02.688
[laughs]

01:16:02.698 --> 01:16:06.378
enough to say, "Well, that's over
there, but over here we're fine,"

01:16:06.438 --> 01:16:09.798
it, it, it has consequences
for us, too, for our democracy.

01:16:09.858 --> 01:16:11.638
That is our business.

01:16:11.999 --> 01:16:14.999
[distant traffic noise]

01:16:15.278 --> 01:16:19.008
[water dripping]

01:16:37.667 --> 01:16:39.418
[keyboard clicking]

01:16:39.422 --> 01:16:41.422
[phone beeping]

01:18:52.658 --> 01:18:55.638
- Wanted to check, to make sure,

01:18:55.938 --> 01:18:59.658
so perhaps you could, you could
go and, and see with, with an

01:18:59.698 --> 01:19:04.398
assistant, just to, to, to see
also where the, where your, your

01:19:04.458 --> 01:19:07.298
- colleagues are.
- Let me check.

01:19:07.338 --> 01:19:10.999
- Yeah, that would be great.

01:19:38.686 --> 01:19:40.056
[laughing]

01:19:40.686 --> 01:19:43.246
-Ja?
-Ja.

01:19:45.686 --> 01:19:48.706
This is about what kind of Europe
we want to live in and what we as

01:19:48.746 --> 01:19:50.706
Europeans value.

01:19:50.746 --> 01:19:53.666
It's about what kind of trade we
want in the future, how we see

01:19:53.676 --> 01:19:58.466
globalization, and about defining
our relationship with China.

01:19:58.526 --> 01:20:01.356
It's about serious action on
sustainability and climate.

01:20:01.386 --> 01:20:05.246
And if we don't take a firm
stand in Europe, then who will?

01:22:04.426 --> 01:22:07.766
And you know, over the last couple
of months, I've heard so many

01:22:07.826 --> 01:22:10.266
colleagues, so many lawmakers,
and I have to say sorry, but

01:22:10.306 --> 01:22:14.086
particularly from the right,
dismissing these concerns that,

01:22:14.146 --> 01:22:16.406
yes, it happens in distant places.

01:22:16.426 --> 01:22:18.466
This is not really our business.

01:22:18.686 --> 01:22:21.266
I'm sorry to say, but this
is literally our business.

01:22:43.706 --> 01:22:47.506
The world is keenly watching
what we decide here tomorrow.

01:22:47.546 --> 01:22:51.606
Yet another Brussels
moment could be at hand.

01:22:51.686 --> 01:22:54.946
As one of the world's largest
markets, the EU can be a force for

01:22:55.086 --> 01:22:58.986
good in clearly defining the
responsibilities of companies to

01:22:59.026 --> 01:23:02.626
respect human rights and
protect the environment.

01:23:38.126 --> 01:23:45.999
If we, if we made a
law that's a paper tiger,

01:23:46.002 --> 01:23:49.746
then that would really suck.

01:23:52.086 --> 01:23:57.346
It would really suck for the
people making our products.

01:23:57.386 --> 01:24:00.406
It would really suck for the
environment and it would suck for

01:24:00.446 --> 01:24:02.706
the atmosphere and climate.

01:24:02.786 --> 01:24:07.146
It would be disappointing for
me, but it would suck for all the

01:24:07.186 --> 01:24:10.888
people that we're
actually doing this for.

01:27:16.620 --> 01:27:19.870
[laughing]

01:27:20.150 --> 01:27:22.150
Okay.

01:28:31.010 --> 01:28:36.270
- Lara Wolters.
- Thanks.

01:29:06.010 --> 01:29:09.750
As expected, the progressive
groups voted in favor of the law,

01:29:09.770 --> 01:29:14.750
but without the eighty eight
percent of Renew members or

01:29:14.810 --> 01:29:17.950
liberal members of the Parliament
and about a third of Christian

01:29:18.150 --> 01:29:22.710
Democrat members from the EPP
voting in favor, this would not

01:29:22.770 --> 01:29:24.770
- have been adopted.

01:29:59.190 --> 01:30:00.790
"for the spirit of compromise."

01:31:01.470 --> 01:31:03.230
We voted in the Parliament.

01:31:03.250 --> 01:31:08.530
We negotiated with member
states to make the final law.

01:31:10.010 --> 01:31:14.910
We negotiated maybe five times
for hours and hours and hours.

01:31:14.930 --> 01:31:17.410
But we got there and
we thought that was it.

01:31:18.710 --> 01:31:20.150
We thought this was the end.

01:31:20.190 --> 01:31:23.960
We reached a position that
everyone was happy with, and that

01:31:23.990 --> 01:31:28.178
- would be the law.
- And then what happened was it

01:31:28.218 --> 01:31:29.698
wasn't the end.

01:31:29.858 --> 01:31:33.588
Everything that was supposed to
be a formality afterwards, just

01:31:33.658 --> 01:31:38.218
everybody putting their signature
under this law turned out to be a

01:31:38.278 --> 01:31:40.838
whole new chapter.

01:31:43.038 --> 01:31:47.158
So European companies have
the right to exploit children.

01:31:48.038 --> 01:31:49.818
They have the right
to destroy forests.

01:31:49.838 --> 01:31:52.818
And most of all, European
companies have the right not to

01:31:52.878 --> 01:31:56.338
ask any questions
or right any wrongs.

01:31:56.378 --> 01:31:59.278
To be very clear, this
is not what I think.

01:31:59.298 --> 01:32:02.258
This is what Emmanuel Macron,
Giorgia Meloni and Christian

01:32:02.298 --> 01:32:05.398
Lindner have fought for
together over the past weeks.

01:32:05.978 --> 01:32:09.218
And if I sound angry
now, it's because I am.

01:32:09.298 --> 01:32:13.508
We had a deal, but business
lobbies would not give up.

01:32:13.538 --> 01:32:15.778
And here we are.
These leaders have now become

01:32:15.798 --> 01:32:20.368
convinced that accountability is a
burden and human rights are a nice

01:32:20.398 --> 01:32:21.598
to have.

01:32:21.638 --> 01:32:25.718
For them, fair competition is
speaking big words about European

01:32:25.778 --> 01:32:29.278
norms and values and then
encouraging a cutthroat race to

01:32:29.318 --> 01:32:30.518
the bottom.

01:32:30.528 --> 01:32:33.278
The European way of life, well,
apparently that's the European

01:32:33.358 --> 01:32:36.778
right to wealth at
the expense of others.

01:32:36.798 --> 01:32:41.118
The cynicism of today's
developments, the shamelessness,

01:32:41.138 --> 01:32:45.298
the outrageous injustice of big
business lobbies who tell their

01:32:45.338 --> 01:32:49.558
political leaders what to do
instead of the other way around.

01:32:49.568 --> 01:32:53.028
And as always, the victims of
corporates wrongdoing are ignored.

01:32:53.028 --> 01:32:54.878
Time is running out.

01:32:55.138 --> 01:32:58.918
I urge member states to stop their
political games and improve and

01:32:59.018 --> 01:33:00.898
approve the due diligence law.

01:33:00.918 --> 01:33:02.538
Thank you.

01:33:04.898 --> 01:33:11.738
There's so much anger in me and
in Heidi and in Manon when this

01:33:11.778 --> 01:33:14.338
happened that that anger
also serves a purpose, right?

01:33:15.018 --> 01:33:20.778
And so we have to use the anger
to go and tell this story.

01:33:20.878 --> 01:33:24.718
I still don't know if this is
going to end well or if not.

01:33:24.798 --> 01:33:27.618
If it ends well, then great.

01:33:27.678 --> 01:33:33.258
But if it doesn't work, then
that's all the more reason to keep

01:33:33.278 --> 01:33:35.427
fighting and to keep trying
again in the next five years.

01:33:35.438 --> 01:33:37.458
And if it doesn't work in the
next five years, in the five years

01:33:37.518 --> 01:33:41.738
after that, because you owe that
to the people that we do this for.

01:33:41.758 --> 01:33:46.758
And we owe it to nature that
keeps on being destroyed.

01:33:48.478 --> 01:33:54.178
If you want to change the world
for the better, it needs to go

01:33:54.218 --> 01:33:56.238
through Europe.
I don't see any other continent

01:33:56.258 --> 01:33:57.338
doing that.

01:33:57.398 --> 01:33:58.578
Is China going to do that?

01:33:58.618 --> 01:33:59.808
Is Russia going to do that?

01:33:59.818 --> 01:34:01.608
Are we going to get better
workers' rights from

01:34:01.638 --> 01:34:02.818
the United States?

01:34:02.858 --> 01:34:05.758
Are we going to get better
nature conservation from

01:34:05.767 --> 01:34:07.318
a place like China?
No, we're not.

01:34:07.378 --> 01:34:09.038
That has to come from here.

01:34:09.098 --> 01:34:10.520
We need to lead on that.