WEBVTT

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The new terrorist is born every second.
In the Middle East.

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We\'ve ensured that a generation of

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young men will be alienated and
radicalized in this process.

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The Joint Chiefs recommended
unanimously depression Kennedy.

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That we strike. We made
all sorts of mistakes.

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What intelligent

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knowing that air water soil are us

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would then proceed to use air
water and soil as it toxic dump.

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Just as we cited with Stalin against Hitler
we cited was Saddam Hussein I guess Khomeini.

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Most of us grow up corporate
we look at the world through

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corporate took years and years
to get the rights that we have.

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It can take a very short time to lose them.

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We as individuals have
incredible power that people in

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the United States can give leaflets out on the
street without being shot. But they don\'t.

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The war in Vietnam was

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far more extreme case or the number of
people killed there was in the millions.

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The fact the matter is we were
on the wrong side in that more.

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I didn\'t really know about any
of that I mean I was born in 81.

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So when the most days I was a kid
so that\'s kind of news to me.

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Whether or not we should intervene in these
countries and overthrow their governments.

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Is I suppose an open question.

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Some people would say maybe we did
the right thing and overthrowing

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the government in Iran or
the government in Zaire.

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The problem is our students today can\'t
think about it. They can\'t conclude.

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We did the right thing in overthrowing
these governments are the we did

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the wrong thing because they aren\'t
told that we ever did any thing.

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I\'m Walter me Ali.

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Democracy dialogues were conceived with
you reviewer of mind as a participant.

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You\'re invited a videotape
your thoughts questions and

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comments and send them for inclusion
in the future and markers at Iowa.

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And I\'m one of the participants
today as well as the filmmaker

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And I\'ve got my own point of
view is same as everybody else.

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If there\'s something
you\'d like to set a man

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but a war in Vietnam was
far more extreme case.

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I think Vietnam with a terrible mistake.

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I would briefing the Secretary
of Defense Minister Macnamara

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and a room full of admirals and generals.

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One human rights violation was one
too many were much more tolerant

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today about people we don\'t like and
their governments defending mankind.

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What we\'re talking about it\'s not a
revolution but in reconstruction we

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know that God is with us when we are
following the example of God in Christ

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If you go back 5 million
years or so you find

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that common ancestor for tragic
20th century history of Guatemala.

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And the United States raises
a vital questions for

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Americans was her support of the
Guatemalan military a mistake.

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You can\'t go back without putting
it in the perspective of the Times.

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Test3 was the height of anticommunism

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a democratically elected government was

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overthrown by forces set in
motion by the United States.

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The results from this have been.
So terrible.

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The Guatemalan military with R-naught

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committed genocide to this went
on not for a decade but this went

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on as one of

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the most shameful chapters in the
history of American foreign policy and

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has been recognized as such
by the CIA Inspector General.

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We all had met human beings are fallible.

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We all make mistakes.

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We know that conventional wisdom
is learn learn from your mistakes.

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Don\'t make the same mistake twice

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Maybe we make it three or four times
but we don\'t make it 56 or seven.

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There\'s a learning period. There isn\'t

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going to be any learning
period with nuclear weapons.

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Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962.

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Millimeter weir war
reckless acts and policies

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led to the crisis over
greatest mistake total.

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It wasn\'t until 29 years
later that we learned for

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the first time that at that moment when
the cheese and really a majority of

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Kennedy\'s military and civilian
advisors believe we should

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attack at that moment that Cubans and the

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Soviets had a 170 nuclear warheads
on the soil of Cuba roughly 60 or 70

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to be used on the strategic orange
to attack cities on the East Coast.

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Headway attacked.

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Those nuclear warheads would have
been used without any question.

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How would it have ended
it utter catastrophe.

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That\'s how close we came.

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We haven\'t yet learned
and applied the lesson

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President Carter\'s national security
advisor was awakened one night at

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three o\'clock in the morning
and told there were

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several thousand missiles coming
at us across the Pacific Ocean.

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Turn out it was a total mistake a little the
Cold War is over in Russia is no longer

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considered an enemy thousands
of intercontinental missiles

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armed with nuclear weapons remain
ready to launch on a moment\'s.

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Notice. This mistake waiting to happen.

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It\'s hard to believe but the nuclear
missiles in both Russia and

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the United States today are still on
hair trigger alert more than ten years.

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After the end of the Cold War

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Nothing has really changed it\'s really
astonishing but the whole posture is

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geared as it was during the Cold War
to a countdown measured in minutes.

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And for example the commander out
in Omaha is responsible for all of

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our nuclear missile force
is supposed to brief

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the President on his nuclear
options and their consequences.

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In thirty-seconds.

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We\'re on the brink of the accidental
or unauthorized use of nuclear forces

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for on a constant day-to-day basis even
today even today even today of course

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The March 2003 the United States
Forces invaded Iraq under

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George Bush restarted what his
administration close preventive war and

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we refuse to leave the Iraqi people
in slavery under Saddam Hussein.

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When the war in Iraq is one

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All the adjoint is cause we\'ll be
able to say to the Iraqi people.

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We were proud to fight for your freedom.

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Was the invasion of escape.

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I think it\'s hard to argue against
a campaign that was designed

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initially on the outset and
was premised on the fact

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that there were strong indications
that Saddam Hussein and

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his regime possess weapons of mass
destruction and that they would

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be inclined to use those weapons against
the United States its allies and

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its interests but opposition to the
invasion and occupation was some terms

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Even on the foreign policy
establishment several of

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the first President Bush was high level
advisors condemned or an extremely harsh term.

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Ray McGovern worked closely with senior
George Bush when he was director of the CIA.

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And later when he was vice president
would call him the crazy spec then

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you know well everyone everyone moving
in top policy and intelligence circles.

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We referred to the Wolfowitz
is that the pearls.

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The folks that are showing up in policy-making
rows now as the crazies it\'s not that I

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object to surprise surprise
federal Marilyn with

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peak Chief of Staff of the US Air
Force under George W Bush\'s father.

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Here the US invasion of Iraq with the
Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor.

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What I object to is the idea of preemption
that you regard someone else as a threat.

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And before he can attack you attack him.

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That seems to me to be a
pernicious policy and there\'s

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to a considerable degree Americans
thought of Pearl Harbor in that sense.

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So if I hear you right you\'re
saying that the Japanese point

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of view Pearl Harbor was a
case of preemptive wars right

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What should the American people
know about foreign policy

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but how it\'s formulated and what it\'s for.

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Oh that\'s a terrible
question to start with.

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Let\'s start with something else.

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It\'s just that there\'s no
really easy answer to it

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because it\'s almost like the cliche about.

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You probably shouldn\'t know what what goes
into making sausage can scare you to death.

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I did go through the school system.

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And the reason that people don\'t know these
facts is that they\'re not really taught.

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People don\'t hear about what happened with
the United States and Central America.

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And the way we organize the Contras

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We did an all Salvador Guatemala.

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So I think that\'s one of the
reasons is a really good book.

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It\'s called. I don\'t like
the name of the book.

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It\'s called.

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She\'s getting stretched and Impaler.

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Lies my teacher told me

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The reason I wrote this book
I think there\'s two reasons.

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First my high school history
course was terrible and

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the textbook was terrible and

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the the teacher who was in fact
the basketball coach didn\'t help.

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In fact sometimes I consider my
book Lies My teacher told me to

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be subtitled revenge against Coach W1.

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All he cared about was how
the basketball team did.

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That\'s all the school system cared about.

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And so all we did was read the textbook and
answer those endless questions at the end of

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each chapter the ultimate result
of our taking a year of history

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in highschool in another year earlier in

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middle school the ultimate
result is to make us Jupiter.

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I think that the textbooks present
almost everybody in our past as

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a hero the biggest hero of all in our
textbooks is the United States itself.

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And in particular our government.

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Now you might think this is obvious I
suppose since the textbooks present

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almost everybody is a hero and of course

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the United States government
is bigger than any one person.

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So naturally it\'s the biggest tool but
I don\'t think it\'s obvious at all.

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In any person living in
the United States today

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knows that the United States government
doesn\'t always do the right thing

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If that\'s been completely obvious
since Watergate since the Vietnam War

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which was not a reasonable policy for
either us or for the nation of Vietnam.

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And since lots of other things
I mean if you\'re talking with

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somebody who thinks that President
Bush does the right thing then

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asking that the government did the right
thing under eight years of Bill Clinton and

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vice versa there\'s not a single person
alive in the United States today

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who thinks the United States
government always dos Do I think but

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our textbooks present a United States
that always does the right thing.

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And I analyze I think six different.

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We call them foreign entanglements foreign

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escapades that we got ourselves
into after World War II.

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For instance we attempted to assassinate
and overthrow Fidel Castro.

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We did participate in overthrowing and

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assassinating President AN
day the president of Chile.

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We overthrew the government of Guatemala.

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We overthrew the government
of Iran before the shock.

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The shock was in power but he had

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a prime minister or the prime
minister was getting very popular.

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And so we overthrew the government of
the Prime Minister and another one

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was in Lebanon and I
forgot what the other o

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the other one is Zaire
or the Congo in Africa

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These six escapades most
textbooks include 0.

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Now they don\'t need to include all six.

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Nicely it\'s done too many things we
don\'t want to mention every darn thing.

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The United States has ever done but they
need to include at least one or two and give

00:14:57.770 --> 00:15:04.770
people some tools to think about them some
accurate historical facts. They don\'t.

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The 1953 the United States over through

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the democratically elected government of

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rural and installed the
Shah was absolutely matter.

00:15:46.315 --> 00:15:49.659
The Shah suppressed opposition was
great cruelty but he could not

00:15:49.660 --> 00:15:53.349
suppress the radical Clergy
which 27 years later in

00:15:53.350 --> 00:15:57.009
1980 led an uprising which
succeeded in deposing was

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Shaw and installing a theocratic
state led by the Ayatollah Khomeini.

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The United States pursued what I would say

00:16:05.245 --> 00:16:08.669
might be called reel politique
that he\'s supposedly

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What the nation\'s best interests are

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the trouble with it is that I don\'t
think it\'s real real politique.

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That is to say I think we went
for our short-term interests.

00:16:21.470 --> 00:16:24.379
And as a result we end up with
things like the Ayatollah

00:16:24.380 --> 00:16:28.069
in Iran we still have trouble
relating to the Iranian government.

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They still don\'t like us in
Iran because of our meddling in

00:16:31.880 --> 00:16:34.189
their national affairs decades earlier

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there have been so many cases
since the end of World War

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two that the US government has overthrown

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a democratically elected government that I

00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:46.309
have to consult my notes I
can recall them offhand.

00:16:46.310 --> 00:16:50.314
There are two cases in
which the United States

00:16:50.315 --> 00:16:56.689
During the Cold War
through the activities of

00:16:56.690 --> 00:17:03.619
the CIA pushed out an elected government and
replaced it with a dictatorial government.

00:17:03.620 --> 00:17:05.689
Those were Iran and Guatemala.

00:17:05.690 --> 00:17:10.999
5354 and I think those
were episodes that we

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:18.529
should feel ashamed about it
put yourself back at the time.

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You\'re now a policymaker.

00:17:20.330 --> 00:17:26.734
And you are trying to the the devil you
know is better than the devil you don\'t.

00:17:26.735 --> 00:17:29.839
And you see Mossadegh there you see him

00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:33.424
playing around people playing
around with the Soviets

00:17:33.425 --> 00:17:36.079
And you decide you\'re going
to get rid of them because

00:17:36.080 --> 00:17:38.464
Iran is terribly important oil et cetera.

00:17:38.465 --> 00:17:41.704
Okay it was a mistake in the long run.

00:17:41.705 --> 00:17:45.439
But in the short run it was not a mistake.

00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.864
A lot of our policymakers look at the
world through the lens of security.

00:17:49.865 --> 00:17:53.239
They want stability but they don\'t
want to do what it takes to

00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.049
really make things sustainably
secure or stable.

00:17:57.050 --> 00:18:01.744
So very often the response
is a very short sided one.

00:18:01.745 --> 00:18:04.279
But of course for the time
or shall I was in there was

00:18:04.280 --> 00:18:07.534
already a disaster if not
for us for the heave over i

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And if you go back to Tomasa jack.

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And if you look maybe not at the intricacies
that go into political decision-making.

00:18:18.110 --> 00:18:21.394
But under the question of

00:18:21.395 --> 00:18:26.449
legalities and where are the moral
compass of pipelining was their country.

00:18:26.450 --> 00:18:31.249
It was their oil who the hallway to
go in there and aside let\'s see.

00:18:31.250 --> 00:18:37.669
That\'s always the question because when you
are the United States are a major power.

00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:43.789
There you can\'t simply sit there and say
Who the hell are we going to go in and

00:18:43.790 --> 00:18:49.699
decide something for some other country
because in fact because we didn\'t do that

00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:57.664
In 1936 or 19371938 Particularly
in 1938 at the time a Munich.

00:18:57.665 --> 00:19:00.090
You saw what happened.

00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:21.424
When the point is it is so much
easier to condemn the action.

00:19:21.425 --> 00:19:26.134
Then it is to condemn the inaction because
it\'s so much harder to demonstrate

00:19:26.135 --> 00:19:31.249
that by failing to act something awful
happens and that\'s what you might call

00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:36.739
Lighthearted approach to foreign
policy as long as we\'re not

00:19:36.740 --> 00:19:39.529
sure that things might go the

00:19:39.530 --> 00:19:43.650
other way then we overthrow the
government just to make certain.

00:19:46.050 --> 00:19:52.878
Remember also that when
you\'re when you\'re analyzing

00:19:52.879 --> 00:19:57.019
these events remember that
this was also a time when we

00:19:57.020 --> 00:20:01.399
were overwhelmingly concerned about
the Soviet Union and that got worse.

00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:03.214
By the way as the cold war went on.

00:20:03.215 --> 00:20:07.174
And while I don\'t think Mossadegh
was really a communist

00:20:07.175 --> 00:20:14.430
We thought so at the time or at least
some of the key people boxers.

00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:32.059
And we felt we had to contain communism.

00:20:32.060 --> 00:20:36.274
And it looked to us whether
it was right or wrong.

00:20:36.275 --> 00:20:40.459
I think Eisenhower genuinely
believed that this was

00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:44.749
a possible communist move into

00:20:44.750 --> 00:20:49.609
one of the most sensitive areas of the world
from our selfish point of view in terms of

00:20:49.610 --> 00:20:53.269
Oil and then necessity
we have of relying on

00:20:53.270 --> 00:20:55.399
Middle Eastern oil and what I was doing in

00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.194
5354 I was not paying any
attention to that at all.

00:20:59.195 --> 00:21:04.069
So I think if you put yourself
back in the atmosphere of

00:21:04.070 --> 00:21:09.019
that time you can understand how
it happened it or justify it.

00:21:09.020 --> 00:21:14.149
But there was that I had
to consult my notes.

00:21:14.150 --> 00:21:17.389
I can recall them or
friend beginning with the

00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:20.749
most two most famous in the 19
fifties there were in Iran and

00:21:20.750 --> 00:21:25.639
Guatemala except for those two
cases the meddling we\'ve done

00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:32.028
has always been well-intentioned
and it certainly

00:21:32.029 --> 00:21:37.699
Never fit any model of aggrandizement.

00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:40.744
We continue in the fifties and sixties with

00:21:40.745 --> 00:21:45.829
British piano Ecuador Congo Brazil in

00:21:45.830 --> 00:21:51.214
terms of mostly deck the
situation is very clear.

00:21:51.215 --> 00:21:58.399
They want to get rid of him because he
wasn\'t going to take orders Bolivia Chile in

00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:06.400
the sixties and seventies Greece Australia
believe it or not the 19 in the 19 seventies.

00:22:06.890 --> 00:22:10.279
Portugal in the seventies Jamaica.

00:22:10.280 --> 00:22:13.309
Fiji in 1987

00:22:13.310 --> 00:22:17.629
Nicaragua in the 19 eighties
and 90 Bulgaria and

00:22:17.630 --> 00:22:22.939
Albania and the early
nineties Yugoslavia in

00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:29.839
29992 thousand Venezuela and 2002 and Haiti

00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:37.840
this year that we have not always behaved
well in places like Latin America.

00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:55.174
I tend to get a little defensive about any

00:22:55.175 --> 00:22:58.189
Anti-american comments
they don\'t want to believe

00:22:58.190 --> 00:23:00.829
that those types of things
are happening elsewhere even

00:23:00.830 --> 00:23:03.994
though you don\'t have
access to information that

00:23:03.995 --> 00:23:08.644
shows me that that\'s happening
during the Reagan years.

00:23:08.645 --> 00:23:12.679
Hundreds of thousands of
people were slaughtered in

00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:18.409
Central America by state
terrorist forces or straight.

00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:22.264
Or non-state terrorist forces in some case

00:23:22.265 --> 00:23:27.750
were organized armed trained
directed by the United States.

00:23:30.430 --> 00:23:34.309
Hundreds of thousands of
people probably about

00:23:34.310 --> 00:23:38.134
the usual estimate is
about 200 thousand killed

00:23:38.135 --> 00:23:45.994
Hundreds of thousands maybe millions of
refugees maybe a million or so orphans.

00:23:45.995 --> 00:23:50.674
Endless numbers wounded
many brutally tortured.

00:23:50.675 --> 00:23:56.689
Where did this happen Central American
Guatemala El Salvador Nicaragua.

00:23:56.690 --> 00:24:00.439
Primarily some extent under asked How

00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:05.130
can we never hear about any of them we heard
about it and it just wasn\'t called violence.

00:24:06.610 --> 00:24:11.419
I am convinced that in the vast majority of

00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:15.664
our undertakings particularly in the
second half of the 20th century

00:24:15.665 --> 00:24:18.349
Our motivations were
good were the outcome\'s

00:24:18.350 --> 00:24:21.409
always what we sought no
of course they weren\'t.

00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:25.834
But the motivations that caused
us to engage. I think we\'re good.

00:24:25.835 --> 00:24:31.159
These military officials are Martian
they\'re living on another planet.

00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:39.160
And that is a subculture that destroys
and diminishes human life not just on

00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:47.419
the battlefield but in the think tank and
in the ballroom and those other places so

00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:54.079
to try to get the truth out of people
like that and so is a very silly project.

00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:58.410
The only US motive and
all of this stuff was

00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:10.580
Self-defense and the Cold War and there
was nothing for us to exploit in Haiti

00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:18.840
or Nicaragua or any of these places.

00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:27.189
And did we always make the best
possible judgments. I\'m sure not.

00:25:27.190 --> 00:25:30.530
But we\'re the judgments.

00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:38.289
Made for decent reasons.

00:25:38.290 --> 00:25:40.559
I\'m sure so and the reasons were

00:25:40.560 --> 00:25:43.219
We were defending ourselves and
not only ourselves but we\'re

00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:47.464
defending mankind against this monstrosity.

00:25:47.465 --> 00:25:51.888
The likes of which the world
has only known one other time

00:25:51.889 --> 00:25:57.304
Naziism and communism to
greatest monstrosities.

00:25:57.305 --> 00:25:59.389
The world has ever seen.

00:25:59.390 --> 00:26:04.759
Well there was a Cold War.

00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:10.594
But the Cold War was not thought
between Russia and the United States.

00:26:10.595 --> 00:26:13.890
The Cold War was really fought.

00:26:14.860 --> 00:26:17.584
On the fringes.

00:26:17.585 --> 00:26:21.540
And Central America was one of those fit.

00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:26.914
I challenge anyone to find

00:26:26.915 --> 00:26:34.915
any appreciable Soviet influence in
Central America during this period.

00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:43.549
Even the interventions of Fidel
Castro were carefully calibrated.

00:26:43.550 --> 00:26:48.139
As long as we dealt with the countries of

00:26:48.140 --> 00:26:53.959
Central America politically through
negotiations trying to work out.

00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:58.999
The Cubans 3D did not intervene.

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:03.169
It was only when the it adds states

00:27:03.170 --> 00:27:08.359
Turn political problems
into military problems that

00:27:08.360 --> 00:27:14.419
Castro intervened and began training.

00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:17.749
Revolutionaries which he did do that.

00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:22.249
But that\'s only subsequent to our military

00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:28.069
our backing of millet the military
machines of Central America.

00:27:28.070 --> 00:27:31.189
But the amusing thing is something so

00:27:31.190 --> 00:27:34.729
tragic and ever be thought of
as amusing is nobody ever asked

00:27:34.730 --> 00:27:39.019
the question how come they\'re

00:27:39.020 --> 00:27:45.824
people how come the revolutionaries
fight so much better. Then

00:27:45.825 --> 00:27:51.200
the forces that the United States support.

00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:59.589
Arguably the worst era the United
States has made in modern times and

00:27:59.590 --> 00:28:06.924
Latin America the overthrow of the
democratically elected government of Guatemala.

00:28:06.925 --> 00:28:14.925
In 1954 the worst brutality in Central
America occurred in Guatemala where

00:28:16.750 --> 00:28:21.069
by business and it\'s tens
of thousands of mostly of

00:28:21.070 --> 00:28:28.499
indigenous people were killed in the
Civil War where they were seen as the

00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:36.500
a C in which the gorilla fish were swimming
this was not a war as the United States.

00:28:37.490 --> 00:28:43.519
Trumpeted. This was an ongoing
series of massacres by

00:28:43.520 --> 00:28:50.059
the Guatemalan military against the
indigenous population of Guatemala.

00:28:50.060 --> 00:28:58.060
Party the Minos into thinking ever since
1954 with the intervention on the CIA.

00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:05.479
They put what a modern society in a tunnel so
dark that none of us knew what time it was.

00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.640
Morning would come to join us.

00:29:09.940 --> 00:29:15.903
In 1954 a kernel or bins

00:29:15.904 --> 00:29:21.454
had been elected to the
presidency of Guatemala.

00:29:21.455 --> 00:29:27.349
And he began to for example
expropriate some of the lands of

00:29:27.350 --> 00:29:31.849
United Fruit that were lying fallow

00:29:31.850 --> 00:29:37.609
That the United Fruit was a great
huge landowner in Guatemala.

00:29:37.610 --> 00:29:45.610
He also couldn\'t buy arms that he felt
he needed from the United States.

00:29:46.475 --> 00:29:52.189
And so he began negotiations to
acquire them from Czechoslovakia.

00:29:52.190 --> 00:30:00.190
And there\'s our ambassador in Guatemala Jack
peripheral looked upon as a security threat.

00:30:02.630 --> 00:30:07.489
In my view and in most
people\'s view purify wildly

00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:12.649
exaggerated the security threat to
the United States from Guatemala.

00:30:12.650 --> 00:30:20.650
The coup against all odds
succeeded the overthrow and it.

00:30:21.965 --> 00:30:26.974
And so democracy a democratically
elected government was

00:30:26.975 --> 00:30:34.279
overthrown by motions by forces set
in motion by the United States

00:30:34.280 --> 00:30:42.280
And the results from this
have been so terrible.

00:30:42.290 --> 00:30:45.814
Because what happened the
United States then began to

00:30:45.815 --> 00:30:50.134
identify totally with the
military of Guatemala.

00:30:50.135 --> 00:30:53.539
Using Vietnam style scorched earth tactics.

00:30:53.540 --> 00:30:58.009
They\'ve talked to the gorillas base of
support among the rural population.

00:30:58.010 --> 00:31:01.189
Hundreds of Indian villages
were burnt to the ground.

00:31:01.190 --> 00:31:04.114
The crops were destroyed
and the animals killed

00:31:04.115 --> 00:31:08.329
suspected gorilla collaborators
were hunted down and slaughtered.

00:31:08.330 --> 00:31:15.739
And in some areas entire communities
men women and children were massacred.

00:31:15.740 --> 00:31:19.504
The forces of democracy

00:31:19.505 --> 00:31:26.194
were were put down were suppressed
Democratic leaders were murdered

00:31:26.195 --> 00:31:34.195
by by people that the United
States supported ISO army men

00:31:35.915 --> 00:31:40.349
one day as gnashing kids
rather than down from

00:31:40.350 --> 00:31:47.329
the legs and smashing them iso.

00:31:47.330 --> 00:31:50.010
Ladies with a Vionnet.

00:31:55.540 --> 00:31:59.029
Yeah the army. He accesses while

00:31:59.030 --> 00:32:03.529
committed where perhaps because
of the extension or lack of

00:32:03.530 --> 00:32:11.329
control or perhaps on discipline but we\'re
not exactly orders expressed orders.

00:32:11.330 --> 00:32:18.994
The army the army the army took him
in the head of the military reserves.

00:32:18.995 --> 00:32:22.039
On the same day the
military took away all of

00:32:22.040 --> 00:32:25.504
them her grandmother and her husband.
Six people.

00:32:25.505 --> 00:32:29.494
I have a daughter who was 23 years old
and the DAG and she was kidnapped.

00:32:29.495 --> 00:32:32.554
She was kidnapped by the
government and security forces.

00:32:32.555 --> 00:32:38.190
For soldiers took him away to the military
base and he never reappeared again.

00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:54.619
In Guatemala it probably was
with American arms but it

00:32:54.620 --> 00:32:58.309
was essentially after Guatemala had

00:32:58.310 --> 00:33:02.659
severed his military relationship
with the United States.

00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:06.454
And this went on not for
a decade but this went

00:33:06.455 --> 00:33:13.849
on until President Clinton
came to office and ordered

00:33:13.850 --> 00:33:21.049
A stop to a reassessment and
a stop to our support for

00:33:21.050 --> 00:33:25.264
the Guatemalan military but in the process

00:33:25.265 --> 00:33:32.179
the Guatemalan military to with
our knowledge committed genocide.

00:33:32.180 --> 00:33:38.629
Huge percentage of the people
killed were Mayan Indians

00:33:38.630 --> 00:33:46.630
and defenseless in the Civil
War in Guatemala was tragic.

00:33:47.225 --> 00:33:49.369
It was very very long.

00:33:49.370 --> 00:33:56.239
I believe it was 36 years from
inception to resolution. I\'ve seen

00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:59.689
Many charges but at least to

00:33:59.690 --> 00:34:06.244
my satisfaction those who perpetrated
the outrages were not us.

00:34:06.245 --> 00:34:09.559
They were not US directed are
encouraged and we\'re not

00:34:09.560 --> 00:34:14.160
us inspired as a UN report makes clear.

00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:20.299
The Guatemalan military killed

00:34:20.300 --> 00:34:25.369
these defenses people with our
knowledge and our support as one of

00:34:25.370 --> 00:34:29.869
the most shameful chapters in the
history of American foreign policy and

00:34:29.870 --> 00:34:35.430
has been recognized as such
by the CIA Inspector General

00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:42.334
Why do we have such policies I\'d
see what you\'re coming to now.

00:34:42.335 --> 00:34:45.904
Let me make a fundamental point
before I go on beyond that.

00:34:45.905 --> 00:34:48.510
Which is number one.

00:34:49.030 --> 00:34:52.009
The United States is not without guilt.

00:34:52.010 --> 00:34:53.149
I\'ve let me start with that.

00:34:53.150 --> 00:34:55.894
I guess I can see where
you\'re coming here is that

00:34:55.895 --> 00:35:00.829
our exercise of power is
is what is to blame for

00:35:00.830 --> 00:35:03.259
all of the ills of most of

00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:06.499
these poor beknighted countries
and to some degree I

00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:10.159
can\'t I can\'t argue with that except to say

00:35:10.160 --> 00:35:18.160
that by enlarge even with these
exercises in places like Latin America

00:35:20.405 --> 00:35:28.405
we have been far more benign as a major
power the most and when we\'ve tried

00:35:28.970 --> 00:35:33.139
to become semi-colonial
as in Latin America we

00:35:33.140 --> 00:35:37.834
have usually ended up getting our
fingers burned and getting out.

00:35:37.835 --> 00:35:41.569
Although economically we have maintained

00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:46.879
a goodly somewhat dominant
position I can argue that either.

00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.649
But what am I trying to say because at
point is there is no question you\'re

00:35:51.650 --> 00:35:57.184
correct that we have not always behaved
well in places like Latin America.

00:35:57.185 --> 00:36:02.554
There\'s a bigger point here though
and the bigger point is that

00:36:02.555 --> 00:36:09.469
There was the Cold War the Cold
War was a very dire struggle

00:36:09.470 --> 00:36:16.999
between freedom and democracy on the one
hand and the totalitarian Nightmare.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:21.724
On the other hand I\'m not one
for self flagellation here.

00:36:21.725 --> 00:36:26.029
I think the United States
is so far ahead of

00:36:26.030 --> 00:36:30.634
the rest of the world in its
observance of human rights.

00:36:30.635 --> 00:36:36.229
In it it\'s ethical approach
to foreign policy.

00:36:36.230 --> 00:36:41.044
There while we make
mistakes as everybody does.

00:36:41.045 --> 00:36:49.045
That we are far more scrupulous
than than anybody else.

00:36:49.535 --> 00:36:55.249
We\'ve made terrible mistakes but we have
almost always even in Latin America.

00:36:55.250 --> 00:37:00.124
We have recognized the
mistakes too often too late.

00:37:00.125 --> 00:37:03.210
But we\'ve always recognized that

00:37:48.340 --> 00:37:54.780
We should have learned by now
lesson in the Cuban missile crisis.

00:38:13.540 --> 00:38:16.429
The Cuban Missile Crisis brought us to

00:38:16.430 --> 00:38:20.374
the brink of nuclear war probably
closer than we ever came.

00:38:20.375 --> 00:38:23.419
Because in part the of the kinds of

00:38:23.420 --> 00:38:28.099
reckless acts everyone was
involved in the United States

00:38:28.100 --> 00:38:33.064
Started building up its missiles
after Kennedy became president.

00:38:33.065 --> 00:38:37.249
Despite the fact that the missile
gap was actually in our favor he\'d

00:38:37.250 --> 00:38:41.689
campaign saying that Eisenhower had
led us fall behind the Soviets.

00:38:41.690 --> 00:38:44.464
In fact we were way ahead of the Soviets.

00:38:44.465 --> 00:38:48.214
And the Soviets took this
as a very real threat.

00:38:48.215 --> 00:38:53.224
At the same time Kennedy was trying
to overthrow the Cuban government.

00:38:53.225 --> 00:38:57.529
He did this in a variety of ways
after the Bay of Pigs Invasion in

00:38:57.530 --> 00:39:02.914
1961 there was a covert war that no one
knew about it except the Cubans Really.

00:39:02.915 --> 00:39:08.944
And this involved sabotage on the island
blowing up factory\'s burning sugar fields.

00:39:08.945 --> 00:39:13.623
It also involved the attempted
assassination of Fidel Castro the Cubans

00:39:13.624 --> 00:39:18.559
claim that there were 5 thousand
attempts against Fidel Castro\'s life.

00:39:18.560 --> 00:39:23.284
In the United States government is
acknowledged nine such attempts.

00:39:23.285 --> 00:39:27.919
There were also some silly attempts in
an effort to have his beard fall out

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:32.389
with some kind of dusting
powder but these kinds of

00:39:32.390 --> 00:39:36.589
things made it clear to the Cubans that
the United States wanted to overthrow

00:39:36.590 --> 00:39:39.619
the Cuban government and they had a reason

00:39:39.620 --> 00:39:42.979
then to accept the Soviet
offer to take the missiles.

00:39:42.980 --> 00:39:45.484
Now that\'s a very reckless act in itself.

00:39:45.485 --> 00:39:48.379
The missiles did then no good Castro

00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:52.069
acknowledged many years later that
this would have destroyed Cuba.

00:39:52.070 --> 00:39:56.944
If there were a war put cube on the front
line in ways that they weren\'t before.

00:39:56.945 --> 00:40:00.094
And what about the Soviets Well
the Soviets took a gamble.

00:40:00.095 --> 00:40:05.629
Had they announced they were going to put the
missiles in Cuba for defensive purposes.

00:40:05.630 --> 00:40:09.799
It would\'ve looked a lot like our
putting missiles in Turkey which

00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.999
we had done for defensive
purposes but because they did it

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:18.799
secretly Khrushchev wanted to announce
it publicly on the anniversary of

00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:24.229
the Bolshevik Revolution in November
1962 because they did it secretly.

00:40:24.230 --> 00:40:27.484
This was a kind of recklessness
that allowed Kennedy to say

00:40:27.485 --> 00:40:33.049
Surprised me you\'ve endangered the United
States and that\'s what brought us to the brink.

00:40:33.050 --> 00:40:37.174
Wouldn\'t it still have been a reckless
act even if it had been announced.

00:40:37.175 --> 00:40:41.854
Anytime that you try to
use nuclear missiles.

00:40:41.855 --> 00:40:45.724
There are there\'s a recklessness involved.

00:40:45.725 --> 00:40:51.829
And there was a meeting in Havana Cuba
chaired by Fidel Castro attended by

00:40:51.830 --> 00:40:55.489
senior officials former officials from

00:40:55.490 --> 00:41:01.339
Russia Cuba and the US who had been in
office at the time and the missile crisis.

00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:08.520
And I think they all agreed that the world
came within a hair\'s breath of nuclear war.

00:41:09.910 --> 00:41:12.874
The lesson is very clear.

00:41:12.875 --> 00:41:15.199
We all had met human beings are fallible.

00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:16.249
We all make mistakes.

00:41:16.250 --> 00:41:19.849
We know that conventional wisdom
is learn learn from your mistakes.

00:41:19.850 --> 00:41:21.394
Don\'t make the same mistake twice.

00:41:21.395 --> 00:41:25.594
Well maybe we may get three or four
times but we don\'t make it 56 or seven.

00:41:25.595 --> 00:41:30.439
There\'s a learning period is going to be
any learning period with nuclear weapons

00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:35.749
you make a mistake in the application of nuclear
weapons you\'re going to destroy nations.

00:41:35.750 --> 00:41:38.689
And therefore the lesson of
the Cuban Missile Crisis but

00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:41.479
less than one with respect to
nuclear weapons which the world has

00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:44.749
not yet learned and what
we in the US have not yet

00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:49.470
learned is we must
eliminate nuclear weapons.

00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:57.769
On Sunday October 14th 1962
a u two flying over Cuba

00:41:57.770 --> 00:42:05.770
detected obtained photographs of the
Soviets in placing strategic missiles.

00:42:06.245 --> 00:42:10.414
On asylum Cuba capable of
carrying nuclear warheads.

00:42:10.415 --> 00:42:16.429
In attack against these Coast in
endangering 90 million US citizens.

00:42:16.430 --> 00:42:22.294
Those were interpreted and brought to the
attention of President Kennedy Tuesday morning.

00:42:22.295 --> 00:42:24.870
After that Sunday.

00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:32.674
And he in effect organized a small
group of a senior officials

00:42:32.675 --> 00:42:36.859
roughly five or six days for this
group of something on the order

00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:41.749
of 13 or 15 individuals to come
essentially to disagreement.

00:42:41.750 --> 00:42:47.629
Some believed we should call it avoid
war by moving to a quarantine.

00:42:47.630 --> 00:42:52.279
All agreed. We had to move or pressure who
she had to move the missiles out of Cuba.

00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.579
And the President received

00:42:55.580 --> 00:43:02.370
both recommendations considered
both and then came to a decision.

00:43:04.630 --> 00:43:09.259
Getting it as me to present
the argument against

00:43:09.260 --> 00:43:15.164
a strike on Cuba and as Max Taylor to
present the argument in favor of it.

00:43:15.165 --> 00:43:17.979
And then he went around the room and he

00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:20.919
asked each one what they
favored attack or no attack.

00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:24.549
And there was a slight
majority in favor of attack.

00:43:24.550 --> 00:43:28.719
And then he turned her genitals when he

00:43:28.720 --> 00:43:32.814
said General viewed being in charge of
this DAG which would be the first die.

00:43:32.815 --> 00:43:36.699
Can you guarantee you\'ll destroy all of

00:43:36.700 --> 00:43:42.624
the nuclear warheads missiles and
nuclear warheads sorry the cube.

00:43:42.625 --> 00:43:45.519
And sway I gotta kissed him. He was so on.

00:43:45.520 --> 00:43:48.369
He said can I guarantee
that will destroy maybe I

00:43:48.370 --> 00:43:52.464
can\'t find one or two or whatever
maybe there\'ll be 12 or five.

00:43:52.465 --> 00:43:55.239
At that moment I knew what it was gonna do.

00:43:55.240 --> 00:43:57.089
He\'s gonna start with it

00:43:57.090 --> 00:44:03.030
Warning this was called Black Saturday.

00:44:04.030 --> 00:44:08.014
By Saturday October 27th.

00:44:08.015 --> 00:44:11.989
There were plans now afoot to
launch a full-scale invasion.

00:44:11.990 --> 00:44:17.164
When our surveillance plane a U2 plane
was shot down on Saturday morning.

00:44:17.165 --> 00:44:19.429
This is the moment of greatest tension.

00:44:19.430 --> 00:44:24.304
By the end of that week
Friday Khrushchev had moved.

00:44:24.305 --> 00:44:27.634
So there was a meeting all day Saturday

00:44:27.635 --> 00:44:34.114
Kennedy\'s senior people including
the joint she\'s what to do.

00:44:34.115 --> 00:44:40.789
At that time we had photographs
of the Soviet missiles.

00:44:40.790 --> 00:44:45.109
It wasn\'t entirely clear where
they were totally operational.

00:44:45.110 --> 00:44:49.384
But it was believed by the CIA that
while the missiles themselves were

00:44:49.385 --> 00:44:53.389
close to operational the warheads
had not yet been delivered.

00:44:53.390 --> 00:44:56.179
They thought the first batch 20
were coming on a ship named the

00:44:56.180 --> 00:44:59.239
pull Taba which would
arrive in 3-4 days after

00:44:59.240 --> 00:45:04.279
this Saturday October 27 and at 04:00 PM on

00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:09.844
Saturday October 27 the Joint Chiefs
recommended unanimously to President Kennedy

00:45:09.845 --> 00:45:13.489
that we strike. Because if we
waited until the warheads got

00:45:13.490 --> 00:45:16.759
there it would be infinitely
more dangerous to carry out

00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:20.359
a military strike Mac
noir and Kennedy believed

00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:24.109
that it might lead to nuclear war
and the generals were pressing

00:45:24.110 --> 00:45:27.169
for this the cheese recommended
that we carry it out

00:45:27.170 --> 00:45:32.254
within three days say roughly by Monday
or Tuesday or the following week.

00:45:32.255 --> 00:45:37.789
Former Secretary of Defense Macnamara
recalls that he said to Under

00:45:37.790 --> 00:45:43.099
Secretary of State George Ball I think
we may never see another spring.

00:45:43.100 --> 00:45:46.084
It wasn\'t until 29 years later.

00:45:46.085 --> 00:45:51.769
In January 1992 at a meeting
in Havana chaired by Castro

00:45:51.770 --> 00:45:55.849
we learned for the first time
that at that moment when

00:45:55.850 --> 00:45:57.814
the chiefs and really a majority of

00:45:57.815 --> 00:46:00.409
Kennedy\'s military and civilian
advisors believe we should

00:46:00.410 --> 00:46:04.699
attack at that moment
that the Cubans and the

00:46:04.700 --> 00:46:10.039
Soviets had a 170 nuclear
warheads on the silo Cuba.

00:46:10.040 --> 00:46:15.720
How would it have ended in utter
catastrophe that\'s how close we came.

00:46:21.250 --> 00:46:25.849
The missile crisis in many ways was

00:46:25.850 --> 00:46:31.819
resolved without war because
Kennedy was able to back off

00:46:31.820 --> 00:46:37.549
The pressure he was receiving from the
hawks who are in his advisory team.

00:46:37.550 --> 00:46:40.969
It\'s interesting that the lesson
that we\'ve generally learned from

00:46:40.970 --> 00:46:46.684
the Cuban Missile Crisis wrongly
is that we should be tough.

00:46:46.685 --> 00:46:48.649
We should be unflinching.

00:46:48.650 --> 00:46:52.819
It\'s in many ways epitomized
by Dean risks famous phrase.

00:46:52.820 --> 00:46:57.559
When a Soviet boat came close to
the quarantine line and turned

00:46:57.560 --> 00:47:02.614
around and risk said we came eyeball to eyeball
with the Soviets and they just blinked.

00:47:02.615 --> 00:47:05.299
This is a game of chicken kind of macho.

00:47:05.300 --> 00:47:09.274
But in fact the Cuban Missile
Crisis was not about macho.

00:47:09.275 --> 00:47:13.984
It was really about two liters
trying to stand off from the brink

00:47:13.985 --> 00:47:16.489
Finding ways to be flexible for

00:47:16.490 --> 00:47:19.039
one thing they were talking to
each other constantly through

00:47:19.040 --> 00:47:21.649
memos in fact Khrushchev and Kennedy were

00:47:21.650 --> 00:47:25.234
trying to find ways to back
off from a confrontation.

00:47:25.235 --> 00:47:29.779
These were not people who were
going eyeball to eyeball.

00:47:29.780 --> 00:47:33.900
These were two statesmen who
are trying to avoid a war.

00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:37.369
The Joint Chiefs recommended unanimously to

00:47:37.370 --> 00:47:41.779
President Kennedy that we
strike Kennedy deferred it.

00:47:41.780 --> 00:47:44.089
Kennedy had to pull them off.

00:47:44.090 --> 00:47:47.659
He said we\'ll revisit this
problem again on Monday to

00:47:47.660 --> 00:47:51.649
see why they shut down
this surveillance craft.

00:47:51.650 --> 00:47:54.484
And behind the backs of the generals.

00:47:54.485 --> 00:47:56.419
He sent his brother Robert Kennedy

00:47:56.420 --> 00:47:59.584
to meet with the Soviet
ambassador Anatolia Brennan

00:47:59.585 --> 00:48:02.689
and that night they reached an agreement.

00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:08.224
The agreement was remarkably conciliatory
on the part of the United States.

00:48:08.225 --> 00:48:11.104
It gave into everything
the Soviets were asking

00:48:11.105 --> 00:48:16.324
namely the removal of missiles from
Turkey and a promise not to invade Cuba.

00:48:16.325 --> 00:48:19.429
And in turn the Soviets promised
to withdraw their missiles from

00:48:19.430 --> 00:48:24.004
Cuba Khrushchev that night
sensing the danger.

00:48:24.005 --> 00:48:30.214
He was out of Moscow as I
recall 20 kilometers or so.

00:48:30.215 --> 00:48:36.859
He sent a messenger to the public radio
transmitter in Moscow saying hold that open.

00:48:36.860 --> 00:48:38.884
I have a message I wanted to

00:48:38.885 --> 00:48:42.724
Deliver BE knew it would take

00:48:42.725 --> 00:48:47.104
about six hours to send the message
through normal diplomatic channels.

00:48:47.105 --> 00:48:49.999
He was so afraid that war would start

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.929
within that six hours that
we received his decision.

00:48:53.930 --> 00:48:58.770
To remove those measures via
the public radio transmitter.

00:49:13.630 --> 00:49:19.444
Of and got me looked like Bin
Laden and very bushy beard

00:49:19.445 --> 00:49:23.839
And he said I was the commander of

00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:29.584
the Submarine Force each
submarine carried ten torpedoes.

00:49:29.585 --> 00:49:34.024
One of the ten on each submarine
carried a nuclear war it.

00:49:34.025 --> 00:49:37.949
We didn\'t know that we didn\'t know
it until that has happened in Moscow

00:49:37.950 --> 00:49:41.944
or two or three years ago and we\'re
talking about events of 1962.

00:49:41.945 --> 00:49:48.499
And those submarines were out of communication
with their headquarters in Moscow and

00:49:48.500 --> 00:49:52.459
their commanders floated around under

00:49:52.460 --> 00:49:56.899
the water for two or three days
after in a sense the war was ended.

00:49:56.900 --> 00:50:01.784
They didn\'t know about Khrushchev\'s
announcement over the public radio

00:50:01.785 --> 00:50:06.039
I\'m redrawing the green to
withdraw the missiles they were

00:50:06.040 --> 00:50:10.164
prepared to fire at anytime it\'s insane.

00:50:10.165 --> 00:50:15.399
There\'s the famous phrase by office
lessons are that the missile crisis

00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:21.219
was extraordinarily well-managed
match the calibrated.

00:50:21.220 --> 00:50:24.609
And that\'s another myth
of the missile prices.

00:50:24.610 --> 00:50:26.889
Those risks cannot be avoided.

00:50:26.890 --> 00:50:31.824
In fact there were numerous moments
at which it could have flown out of.

00:50:31.825 --> 00:50:34.029
It could have gotten out of hand.

00:50:34.030 --> 00:50:37.659
And the conclusion is you
can\'t manage crises.

00:50:37.660 --> 00:50:39.774
You\'d have to prevent them.

00:50:39.775 --> 00:50:44.354
We got out of that crisis not because
we were able to managed prices

00:50:44.355 --> 00:50:49.024
Which is the traditional lesson but we
got out of that crisis because of luck.

00:50:49.025 --> 00:50:53.674
Military operations are much more
complex and civilian operations.

00:50:53.675 --> 00:50:56.659
There are more variables and
the causal relationship

00:50:56.660 --> 00:50:59.899
between actions do
influence the variables is

00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:02.299
less clear and military operations and then

00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:06.544
civilians in Afghanistan
US fire kill Canadians.

00:51:06.545 --> 00:51:09.844
In Afghanistan US fire
killed a wedding party.

00:51:09.845 --> 00:51:12.589
That\'s part of military
operations cannot be

00:51:12.590 --> 00:51:16.099
avoided understand it
operating procedure when

00:51:16.100 --> 00:51:19.399
the United States Navy tries
to surface submarines at

00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:23.224
drops depth charges there
was Soviet submarines

00:51:23.225 --> 00:51:26.689
Around Cuba that we were
trying to surface they had

00:51:26.690 --> 00:51:30.019
been underwater now for 40 days without

00:51:30.020 --> 00:51:33.229
being able to get fresh air fresh water

00:51:33.230 --> 00:51:37.174
they were afraid to surface because
of all the US boats up there.

00:51:37.175 --> 00:51:40.414
And they were going crazy that heat in the

00:51:40.415 --> 00:51:43.834
in the submarine\'s was
rising to a 120 degrees.

00:51:43.835 --> 00:51:48.124
The soldiers that the sellers were
walking around in their underwear.

00:51:48.125 --> 00:51:51.154
They were drinking recycled engine water.

00:51:51.155 --> 00:51:56.524
And they were about to go crazy when
the depth charges started falling.

00:51:56.525 --> 00:51:59.869
One seller recall that it was like being in

00:51:59.870 --> 00:52:05.599
a steel barrel with a sledgehammer
being hit on the side.

00:52:05.600 --> 00:52:09.379
And the captain of one
of the boats went crazy.

00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:14.254
He ordered that the nuclear
tip per potatoes be arm.

00:52:14.255 --> 00:52:20.209
We didn\'t know they had nuclear torpedos had
they launched one of those nuclear torpedos.

00:52:20.210 --> 00:52:24.720
It would\'ve been the end of the world because
it would have started a nuclear war.

00:52:36.430 --> 00:52:39.859
We were defending ourselves and
not only ourselves but we\'re

00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:44.104
defending mankind against this monstrosity.

00:52:44.105 --> 00:52:46.564
The likes of which the world

00:52:46.565 --> 00:52:53.959
Only known one other time Naziism and
communism to greatest monstrosities.

00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:59.599
The world has ever seen and
it fell to us to defend

00:52:59.600 --> 00:53:05.344
ourselves and the whole world against both
of them in the course of those nasty fights.

00:53:05.345 --> 00:53:08.719
So we may have done some things wrong
and we certainly did some things

00:53:08.720 --> 00:53:13.129
that were hard things or bloody things.

00:53:13.130 --> 00:53:21.130
We\'re involved in a in a global
wrestling match with the software

00:53:36.100 --> 00:53:40.444
Field war in Vietnam was
far more extreme case.

00:53:40.445 --> 00:53:44.059
The number of people killed there
was in the millions probably

00:53:44.060 --> 00:53:49.470
4 million or so three countries and
destroyed maybe they\'ll never recover.

00:53:54.790 --> 00:53:57.109
And what was a four.

00:53:57.110 --> 00:54:02.059
What was the purpose Americans were told
at the time but an American ship on

00:54:02.060 --> 00:54:04.429
the Tonkin Gulf off the coast of Landau was

00:54:04.430 --> 00:54:07.579
attacked without provocation
but it wasn\'t true.

00:54:07.580 --> 00:54:10.669
We were told the war was
fought to stop China

00:54:10.670 --> 00:54:14.059
Paternalism going anywhere
were told it was because of

00:54:14.060 --> 00:54:18.694
South Vietnam fell to the Communists and
the rest of Southeast Asia would fall too.

00:54:18.695 --> 00:54:23.269
But that didn\'t happen were told it
was to save hit them from communism.

00:54:23.270 --> 00:54:31.270
Does one soldier put if we had to destroy
the country in order to save it I read that

00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.399
you flew somewhere close to

00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:40.144
300 air missions as well as that
right and I\'m trying to imagine them

00:54:40.145 --> 00:54:44.074
What it\'s like to fly one mission and face.

00:54:44.075 --> 00:54:48.274
The possible consequences come
to life and limb that you faced.

00:54:48.275 --> 00:54:55.444
Well i like most fighter pilots thick on
a personal level that I\'m vulnerable.

00:54:55.445 --> 00:55:00.064
So I don\'t think there\'s anybody on the
ground who can shoot me down in an airplane.

00:55:00.065 --> 00:55:04.129
If I thought otherwise I\'d be in the wrong
business out of go try to do something else.

00:55:04.130 --> 00:55:07.579
But I frankly think that
whenever I have to fight

00:55:07.580 --> 00:55:12.019
guys on the ground they are the ones
that need to be scared. Not me.

00:55:12.020 --> 00:55:20.020
I had been to Hanoi in February of 68 to bring
home three flyers and spent most Night.

00:55:22.415 --> 00:55:27.600
We were there for about two weeks
spent most 19 bomb shelters.

00:55:28.330 --> 00:55:33.529
Day we\'re bombing shitty heavily heavily.

00:55:33.530 --> 00:55:35.704
There were bombing annoyance 68.

00:55:35.705 --> 00:55:38.730
They were bombing Hanoi every day.

00:55:39.310 --> 00:55:42.949
Suppose the United States
had won that war would have

00:55:42.950 --> 00:55:45.859
been worse with a taking
them bonanza alarm.

00:55:45.860 --> 00:55:50.194
So when justify it no it was
a wrong or wrongly pursued.

00:55:50.195 --> 00:55:51.559
It should not have happened.

00:55:51.560 --> 00:55:52.699
I agree with all of that.

00:55:52.700 --> 00:55:57.889
And suppose we have one map war
could could there would have been

00:55:57.890 --> 00:56:04.440
justified even justified. True

00:56:04.950 --> 00:56:12.950
There was an attempt by the was pure
aggression by communist North Vietnam.

00:56:14.815 --> 00:56:19.044
Aiming to take over non
communist South Vietnam

00:56:19.045 --> 00:56:23.259
and subjected to the same kind of
totalitarian regime that there was in

00:56:23.260 --> 00:56:26.289
the north general Merrill MC
peak was appointed chief of

00:56:26.290 --> 00:56:30.459
the Air Force staff but the first President
Bush suppose we\'d won that war would have

00:56:30.460 --> 00:56:35.049
been worth it could it have been I mean what
it had been justified would oh I don\'t think

00:56:35.050 --> 00:56:40.344
so at the fact of the matter is we
were on the wrong side and net War.

00:56:40.345 --> 00:56:44.589
The South was a corrupt
government to the north.

00:56:44.590 --> 00:56:47.294
Some respects not very much better but

00:56:47.295 --> 00:56:51.334
You\'d have to say that that
they had right on your side.

00:56:51.335 --> 00:56:54.979
Suppose we had won that war Daniel
Berrigan served two years in

00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:59.089
federal prison for burning draft files
with napalm to protest the Vietnam War.

00:56:59.090 --> 00:57:01.339
Later who was sentenced
to three to ten years for

00:57:01.340 --> 00:57:03.799
another act of civil
disobedience destruction of

00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:08.749
nuclear missile nose cone with a household
hammer that sentence was reversed on appeal

00:57:08.750 --> 00:57:11.704
Suppose we had won it
would have been worth it.

00:57:11.705 --> 00:57:19.669
Rsq that well I find it very difficult to
enter into a hypothetical question like that.

00:57:19.670 --> 00:57:23.959
Which you know doesn\'t
doesn\'t really help us.

00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:28.309
What if what if what if I take that to be

00:57:28.310 --> 00:57:33.349
some kind of a parlor game for academic
sure unearned involved people.

00:57:33.350 --> 00:57:39.349
You can\'t talk realistically about
the killing of 3 million lotions

00:57:39.350 --> 00:57:45.649
Vietnamese Cambodian American as

00:57:45.650 --> 00:57:47.059
though that were you know

00:57:47.060 --> 00:57:51.644
Saturday afternoon football game dealt
with a horror for all concerned

00:57:51.645 --> 00:57:56.949
And remain shots. I mean there\'s
still thousands of people dying

00:57:56.950 --> 00:57:58.914
every year in Laos

00:57:58.915 --> 00:58:04.239
one small country from unexploded ordinance
and change me learn nothing from it.

00:58:04.240 --> 00:58:07.340
We\'re doing it again in Iraq.

00:58:18.300 --> 00:58:24.804
Certainly the political context in which
we tried to fight that war was faulty.

00:58:24.805 --> 00:58:27.309
And it\'s amazing to me that

00:58:27.310 --> 00:58:33.929
the American public supported it for
as long as it did Ms. 10-year war.

00:58:33.930 --> 00:58:37.219
That\'s a long time for a
democracy to stay engaged.

00:58:37.220 --> 00:58:40.429
If I think about say the
war the Vietnam War

00:58:40.430 --> 00:58:44.329
and there was a time we would like
to eat people walking around.

00:58:44.330 --> 00:58:48.514
Like you know people thought
we were nuts idiots.

00:58:48.515 --> 00:58:54.559
But eventually the support dried
up and that\'s what ended it bad.

00:58:54.560 --> 00:58:57.034
The fifth or sixth year people began to

00:58:57.035 --> 00:59:01.294
my trucks went by in honk their
horns and a world fluoresce.

00:59:01.295 --> 00:59:03.604
We never lost a battle of Vietnam.

00:59:03.605 --> 00:59:05.854
Never lost a military engagement.

00:59:05.855 --> 00:59:07.849
We lost the war

00:59:07.850 --> 00:59:11.329
Because of the political
framework in which we tried to

00:59:11.330 --> 00:59:14.929
fight fight it was corrupt and legitimate.

00:59:14.930 --> 00:59:18.139
If the politics is wrong it
doesn\'t make much difference.

00:59:18.140 --> 00:59:22.249
If you get the military piece right
that\'s sort of like what we\'re doing in

00:59:22.250 --> 00:59:26.809
Gulf War to the military
pieces was done splendidly.

00:59:26.810 --> 00:59:30.529
But it doesn\'t make much difference
because it\'s been plunked down

00:59:30.530 --> 00:59:36.019
flat smack dab in the
middle of a wrong-headed.

00:59:36.020 --> 00:59:40.009
Politics we were defending ourselves
and not only ourselves but we\'re

00:59:40.010 --> 00:59:44.254
defending mankind against this monstrosity.

00:59:44.255 --> 00:59:48.724
The likes of which the world
has only known one other time.

00:59:48.725 --> 00:59:50.464
Naziism and communism

00:59:50.465 --> 00:59:54.109
two greatest monstrosities.

00:59:54.110 --> 00:59:56.029
The world is a recede.

00:59:56.030 --> 01:00:00.019
We thought of that war as

01:00:00.020 --> 01:00:05.149
an element of the Cold War 24 hours a
day seven days a week for three years.

01:00:05.150 --> 01:00:13.150
Or I should say for seven years I was involved
in the Cold War Vietnam we believe was

01:00:13.640 --> 01:00:17.869
a Cold War Macnamara clearly
saw in his mind the linkage

01:00:17.870 --> 01:00:24.859
between war and being top dog
and his view of moralism

01:00:24.860 --> 01:00:28.819
As do others of these people pretty
just expand on that a little bit.

01:00:28.820 --> 01:00:30.304
They\'re mature hollow.

01:00:30.305 --> 01:00:34.729
He believed as so many did during

01:00:34.730 --> 01:00:41.284
the Cold War against and the war in
Indochina was they were doing God\'s work.

01:00:41.285 --> 01:00:43.759
Eisner put it well.

01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:49.999
When he said the loss of Laos and South
Vietnam will cause the dominoes to fall.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.449
What he meant by that was that the loss

01:00:53.450 --> 01:00:58.189
of Laos South Vietnam to the
free world would mean that

01:00:58.190 --> 01:01:02.509
the communist Chinese and the Communists
Soviets would move in and they would

01:01:02.510 --> 01:01:07.114
use Indochina as a base from
which to extend their hegemony

01:01:07.115 --> 01:01:11.149
Across the west to the east
and south Asia that\'s why we

01:01:11.150 --> 01:01:15.379
were there God\'s work was the
protection of the free world.

01:01:15.380 --> 01:01:20.734
The protection of the free
world meant being number one.

01:01:20.735 --> 01:01:28.129
And using what materials at
hand what military power and

01:01:28.130 --> 01:01:32.299
technological power you had to make
the point that you were number

01:01:32.300 --> 01:01:37.564
one and that you were going to his they said
Destroy the village in order to save it.

01:01:37.565 --> 01:01:44.719
I talked with Macnamara 65 and a social
gathering at the Kennedys or somewhere.

01:01:44.720 --> 01:01:49.304
And they had asked the tool of us too

01:01:49.305 --> 01:01:54.819
Lead a discussion afterward on
the Vietnam War which we do it.

01:01:54.820 --> 01:02:01.209
And when my turn came I said Well Mr.
Secretary.

01:02:01.210 --> 01:02:06.560
I\'m I\'m asking you to stop the war tonight
since you didn\'t stop the morning.

01:02:11.430 --> 01:02:19.419
Show he looked past my left ear and he said
well let me put it this way. Father Berrigan.

01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:22.809
Vietnam is like Mississippi.

01:02:22.810 --> 01:02:26.690
If they won\'t keep the law
you send the troops here.

01:02:27.810 --> 01:02:32.444
I was so dumbfounded by that kind of

01:02:32.445 --> 01:02:40.445
what to call it. Crucial horrible blood
written simplicity that next day when I flew

01:02:42.860 --> 01:02:45.799
back to New York I asked one
of the secretaries I was

01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:49.279
working for judgment magazines
at time i said would you

01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:52.249
please take down this word that I heard

01:02:52.250 --> 01:02:57.450
last night from Robert McNamara because
in two weeks I won\'t believe you said it.

01:02:57.520 --> 01:03:05.520
But that was the thinking of
the Star Wars kid of the war.

01:03:13.810 --> 01:03:19.384
The conflict in Nicaragua was
probably the lead news story.

01:03:19.385 --> 01:03:24.019
For much of the 19 seventies
thousands of people were killed.

01:03:24.020 --> 01:03:27.424
The country was destroyed.

01:03:27.425 --> 01:03:30.319
I would only say to you
that by and large we have

01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:33.574
behaved a hell of a lot better than
most of the rest of the world.

01:03:33.575 --> 01:03:41.575
And when we misbehave we usually end up realizing
we have done so and apologizing for it

01:03:41.930 --> 01:03:49.930
and usually trying to make up for it
with heavy doses of cash and so forth

01:04:06.850 --> 01:04:11.599
The Somoza dynasty ruled Nicaragua
where the United States support from

01:04:11.600 --> 01:04:18.154
1937 until the Sandinista revolution
more than 40 years later in 1979.

01:04:18.155 --> 01:04:23.358
During the 19 eighties the Reagan
administration armed trained and financed

01:04:23.359 --> 01:04:29.059
an army of counter-revolutionaries are contrast
to oppose the Revolutionary Government.

01:04:29.060 --> 01:04:31.489
Country was destroyed and stoas.

01:04:31.490 --> 01:04:36.439
Thanks been declining ever since the
US victory and to seriously declining

01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:41.509
The and the effects were enormous it\'s
now the second poorest country in

01:04:41.510 --> 01:04:44.194
the hemisphere after
Haiti and that\'s part of

01:04:44.195 --> 01:04:47.839
US history we take credit for
having been responsible for it.

01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:54.199
That was us run the US
organized a terrorist army.

01:04:54.200 --> 01:04:56.884
On the border.

01:04:56.885 --> 01:04:59.824
They were directed by South come

01:04:59.825 --> 01:05:03.259
the US Southern Command and Panama

01:05:03.260 --> 01:05:07.774
which in fact ordered them to hit
what they called soft targets.

01:05:07.775 --> 01:05:11.134
Soft targets means
undefended civilian targets

01:05:11.135 --> 01:05:16.339
like agricultural villages and
health clinics and so on.

01:05:16.340 --> 01:05:18.904
And why would they want to
well the wording of the

01:05:18.905 --> 01:05:21.004
Commanding General was you should hit

01:05:21.005 --> 01:05:24.379
soft targets not duke it out
with this and ministers.

01:05:24.380 --> 01:05:27.259
And other words try to
avoid the national army

01:05:27.260 --> 01:05:30.454
that\'s protecting people because
then you\'ll get killed.

01:05:30.455 --> 01:05:33.634
And look for soft targets
undefended targets.

01:05:33.635 --> 01:05:37.339
I have heard that allegation I\'ve never

01:05:37.340 --> 01:05:41.734
seen one shred of proof that
indicates to me that that\'s true.

01:05:41.735 --> 01:05:45.289
But that is in fact the way a lot
of that work was conducted as not.

01:05:45.290 --> 01:05:50.149
I think that\'s a matter of interpretation
as to what is a hard target and what\'s

01:05:50.150 --> 01:05:56.164
a soft target schools clinics
hospitals grain storage

01:05:56.165 --> 01:06:03.829
I would tell you that I consider that
to be baseless and false that flies in

01:06:03.830 --> 01:06:07.039
the face of every principle
that our military

01:06:07.040 --> 01:06:11.209
observes and I would be inclined
to reject that out of hand.

01:06:11.210 --> 01:06:12.349
And again I have seen

01:06:12.350 --> 01:06:18.150
not one shred of hard hard evidence
that such orders wherever given.

01:06:26.350 --> 01:06:30.589
During the Cold War we oppose

01:06:30.590 --> 01:06:37.969
the Communist guerilla movements which
we\'re trying to take power in various. So

01:06:37.970 --> 01:06:45.079
Latin American countries that were
supported by Cuba and the Soviet Union.

01:06:45.080 --> 01:06:47.089
And it was the right thing to do.

01:06:47.090 --> 01:06:52.129
This was a war started by the
Sandinistas a war against

01:06:52.130 --> 01:06:55.249
the Nicaraguan people to try to impose

01:06:55.250 --> 01:06:59.764
a totalitarian communist
dictatorship on Nicaragua.

01:06:59.765 --> 01:07:06.049
Well look the Sandinistas represented

01:07:06.050 --> 01:07:14.050
the mildest revolutionary movement that
the western hemisphere has ever seen.

01:07:14.135 --> 01:07:16.324
They did not

01:07:16.325 --> 01:07:18.319
line people up against the wall.

01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:20.044
There was no examples.

01:07:20.045 --> 01:07:25.639
All of executions of the opposition.

01:07:25.640 --> 01:07:28.759
They didn\'t nationalize.

01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:36.289
The means of production as matter of
fact right up to the end the majority or

01:07:36.290 --> 01:07:44.290
the great majority of the owners of the
means of production were the same people.

01:07:45.110 --> 01:07:50.119
As when the Sandinista Revolution began.

01:07:50.120 --> 01:07:58.120
They took all the Dow debts accumulated by
this Somoza regime and agreed to pay them off

01:07:58.385 --> 01:08:02.959
So they were basically a
mild revolutionary movement.

01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:04.414
I cannot understand.

01:08:04.415 --> 01:08:12.415
And then to they they ran to fair free and
fair elections are counted as such by by

01:08:13.340 --> 01:08:17.494
international observers they
won the first one and they won

01:08:17.495 --> 01:08:21.739
and they lost the second by a very narrow
margin even though the United States had

01:08:21.740 --> 01:08:25.879
broken his word and interfered
in those elections but

01:08:25.880 --> 01:08:30.814
then they left power as
a result of elections.

01:08:30.815 --> 01:08:34.414
Those are not the actions of ideologues.

01:08:34.415 --> 01:08:40.699
Those are actions of people who are
willing to be to practice democracy

01:08:40.700 --> 01:08:44.209
I don\'t think it\'s necessary to defend.

01:08:44.210 --> 01:08:49.909
So the wartime measures adopted
by the Sandinistas they committed

01:08:49.910 --> 01:08:57.574
their share of stupidities and sins of all
the dictatorships of Central America.

01:08:57.575 --> 01:09:01.744
The Somoza dictatorship
was the longest running.

01:09:01.745 --> 01:09:06.484
And in many ways and
certainly the most corrupt.

01:09:06.485 --> 01:09:14.485
And in many ways terribly oppressive the
anger against Somoza with deep seeded.

01:09:14.825 --> 01:09:17.344
Throughout the population.

01:09:17.345 --> 01:09:22.804
The most the standard there

01:09:22.805 --> 01:09:30.805
for the anti Somoza forces was not
some extreme political figure.

01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:36.124
It was Pedro working tomorrow.

01:09:36.125 --> 01:09:41.299
The editor of the conservative paper.

01:09:41.300 --> 01:09:47.479
Now prints a man whose
family had contributed

01:09:47.480 --> 01:09:55.480
five precedence to the political
history of Nicaragua.

01:09:56.165 --> 01:10:04.165
And what happened the
Somoza government killed.

01:10:06.400 --> 01:10:14.400
Now when you kill a man of such unimpeachable
reputation as pedro Joaquin tomorrow when

01:10:17.060 --> 01:10:24.754
you kill a man of unimpeachable democratic
credentials then you simply have lost

01:10:24.755 --> 01:10:30.019
all political bearings Somoza

01:10:30.020 --> 01:10:34.609
was doomed in the United States did
not have the wit to understand it

01:10:34.610 --> 01:10:40.309
and that\'s the real commentary
on our intervention

01:10:40.310 --> 01:10:47.344
against against the Sandinistas is

01:10:47.345 --> 01:10:52.864
It\'s simply simply made no sense.

01:10:52.865 --> 01:11:00.865
The idea that you could
restore a a dictatorship

01:11:02.150 --> 01:11:10.150
through the military might
of force officered by

01:11:10.340 --> 01:11:14.164
former former leaders of the National Guard

01:11:14.165 --> 01:11:19.504
seemed to me to be again a
failure of political analysis.

01:11:19.505 --> 01:11:24.484
The United States made the cardinal error

01:11:24.485 --> 01:11:32.485
Of of not on withdrawing
support from Somoza

01:11:34.505 --> 01:11:39.439
when they were still a
democratic opposition that could

01:11:39.440 --> 01:11:44.449
have replaced by writing some with

01:11:44.450 --> 01:11:48.679
some Asa until the revolution

01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:56.640
succeeded was simply
foolish and made those.

01:11:57.100 --> 01:12:05.100
If you fast forward now to the end
of the when when we finally stopped

01:12:06.815 --> 01:12:08.899
backing the contours.

01:12:08.900 --> 01:12:16.294
Why did we do that what had happened the
Sandinistas hadn\'t changed that much.

01:12:16.295 --> 01:12:21.139
They were still. They still wanted as they

01:12:21.140 --> 01:12:26.299
had won and from the beginning and
accommodation with the United States.

01:12:26.300 --> 01:12:29.809
All they kept asking the
Sandinistas kept asking this guy

01:12:29.810 --> 01:12:34.009
says Please tell us precisely
what you want us to do.

01:12:34.010 --> 01:12:37.714
It as states always refused
to tell the Sandinistas.

01:12:37.715 --> 01:12:41.149
What precisely it was we wanted

01:12:41.150 --> 01:12:48.829
an Oscar Arias and the areas
plan and the support of

01:12:48.830 --> 01:12:53.209
jim Right then Speaker of the
House who\'s who demanded from

01:12:53.210 --> 01:12:57.769
the Reagan administration a
list of their minimal demands

01:12:57.770 --> 01:13:05.770
and the demands were no sooner written down
then the Sandinistas accepted them in total.

01:13:07.550 --> 01:13:15.229
So what you have had in the decade
of the seventies and eighties was

01:13:15.230 --> 01:13:22.320
A resort to war when peaceful means of
achieving the same objectives were available.

01:13:38.110 --> 01:13:42.919
While I after 911 you could be
cast on the streets of Paris.

01:13:42.920 --> 01:13:48.229
I mean we were you know everybody
was was an American you\'re right we

01:13:48.230 --> 01:13:51.349
dissipated that we dispelled all that by

01:13:51.350 --> 01:13:54.979
acting in a way which can
only be regarded as well.

01:13:54.980 --> 01:13:57.874
Some people have said arrogant

01:13:57.875 --> 01:14:02.569
I think it\'s more accurate to say stupid.

01:14:02.570 --> 01:14:05.599
Now that wasn\'t quote
violence that\'s defense.

01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:09.454
We\'re defending democracy and
freedom and all wonderful things.

01:14:09.455 --> 01:14:12.004
But that\'s true of all
institutional violence.

01:14:12.005 --> 01:14:14.044
At least I can\'t think of a case.

01:14:14.045 --> 01:14:16.804
When it wasn\'t presented as defensive.

01:14:16.805 --> 01:14:19.189
When the Germans were massacring the Jews.

01:14:19.190 --> 01:14:20.764
It was in self-defense.

01:14:20.765 --> 01:14:23.989
No look at the Nazi propaganda.

01:14:23.990 --> 01:14:29.254
Suppose if we had the records of Genghis
Khan we\'d find something similar.

01:14:29.255 --> 01:14:36.064
Well I think first of all it\'s quite inappropriate
to compare current policy in any way

01:14:36.065 --> 01:14:39.259
With the policies of
Hitler get gauges common.

01:14:39.260 --> 01:14:42.349
I didn\'t compare it to
Hitler in Genghis Khan.

01:14:42.350 --> 01:14:47.689
What I said was that even Hitler and
gang even Hitler you know the extreme

01:14:47.690 --> 01:14:53.989
of maybe the worst human being who
ever lived or even Genghis Khan.

01:14:53.990 --> 01:14:58.219
In the case of Hitler we know in the
case of Genghis Khan we don\'t defend it

01:14:58.220 --> 01:15:02.014
even their atrocities by
the claim of self-defense.

01:15:02.015 --> 01:15:05.119
So the claim of self-defense
in fact is uniform.

01:15:05.120 --> 01:15:08.629
It would very rarely say
anyone hear anyone say I\'m

01:15:08.630 --> 01:15:10.549
carrying out atrocities
or we\'re carrying out

01:15:10.550 --> 01:15:13.069
atrocities because we
like to torture people.

01:15:13.070 --> 01:15:16.699
There\'s almost always some justification.

01:15:16.700 --> 01:15:18.409
I can\'t think of a counter-example

01:15:18.410 --> 01:15:22.129
Typically institutional violence
is presented and defensive terms.

01:15:22.130 --> 01:15:24.154
No question that\'s true.

01:15:24.155 --> 01:15:27.259
That many people use that I
hadn\'t been thinks it and this

01:15:27.260 --> 01:15:30.424
particular exam times
it was true legitimate.

01:15:30.425 --> 01:15:34.519
Sometimes it was not I personally
believe that in the case of

01:15:34.520 --> 01:15:39.814
this invasion of Iraq it was a
perfectly legitimate argument.

01:15:39.815 --> 01:15:44.959
There was clear evidence that Saddam had
weapons of mass destruction because he used

01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:48.019
chemical weapons on a
number of occasions and I

01:15:48.020 --> 01:15:52.294
thought it was perfectly legitimate
for us to go after saddam.

01:15:52.295 --> 01:15:57.630
I also happen to think it would be perfectly
legitimate for us to go after North Korea

01:16:02.590 --> 01:16:10.590
What I object to is the idea of preemption
that you regard someone else as a threat.

01:16:11.165 --> 01:16:15.724
And before he can attack you attack him.

01:16:15.725 --> 01:16:20.479
That seems to me to be a
pernicious policy and there\'s

01:16:20.480 --> 01:16:25.279
to a considerable degree Americans
thought of Pearl Harbor in that sense.

01:16:25.280 --> 01:16:27.439
If I hear you right you\'re saying that

01:16:27.440 --> 01:16:31.969
the Japanese point of view Pearl
Harbor was a case of preemptive wars

01:16:31.970 --> 01:16:35.479
Right and I think when the
President decided to invade

01:16:35.480 --> 01:16:40.849
Iraq he had reasonably strong
political support in this country to

01:16:40.850 --> 01:16:46.189
some degree because he linked the invasion
of Iraq to terrorism which may or may not

01:16:46.190 --> 01:16:49.099
be a legitimate linkage

01:16:49.100 --> 01:16:52.114
but the American people bought it
and I think it made it much easier.

01:16:52.115 --> 01:16:55.264
So long as you\'ve got the
terrorist issue there.

01:16:55.265 --> 01:17:01.429
I think preemptive war is possible
with the American people.

01:17:01.430 --> 01:17:07.399
My remarks were aimed at the
doctrine of preemption which I

01:17:07.400 --> 01:17:14.299
regard as a bad idea on the face of it

01:17:14.300 --> 01:17:18.214
I do think it is in a sense
kind of un-American.

01:17:18.215 --> 01:17:22.879
We have a long tradition of

01:17:22.880 --> 01:17:28.459
of of truly believing that whether
it\'s historically accurate or not

01:17:28.460 --> 01:17:34.489
in fact some cases has not been
but but our public ideology

01:17:34.490 --> 01:17:37.309
has been that we don\'t attack people

01:17:37.310 --> 01:17:40.759
preemptively that we\'re
prepared to defend ourselves.

01:17:40.760 --> 01:17:48.760
But that on balance we try to work out
conflict in ways that are less warlike.

01:17:49.970 --> 01:17:53.359
First to set the stage a bit.

01:17:53.360 --> 01:17:56.494
In December of last year I went

01:17:56.495 --> 01:18:00.019
Over to the Middle East and spent
the majority of the month of

01:18:00.020 --> 01:18:04.219
December almost up until Christmas
Day with the forces that were

01:18:04.220 --> 01:18:09.169
deployed to the region that we\'re in the
final process of preparing to conduct

01:18:09.170 --> 01:18:14.329
the operation that we now refer
to as Operation Iraqi Freedom.

01:18:14.330 --> 01:18:17.089
So I had a chance to meet firsthand with

01:18:17.090 --> 01:18:20.539
key military leaders who
actually conducted the war

01:18:20.540 --> 01:18:27.319
on the ground from the tactical assembly areas
in Kuwait on up into the heart of Iraq.

01:18:27.320 --> 01:18:31.879
I think it\'s hard to argue against
a campaign that was designed

01:18:31.880 --> 01:18:36.304
initially on the outset and
was premised on the fact

01:18:36.305 --> 01:18:43.009
That there were strong indications that Saddam
Hussein and his regime possess weapons of

01:18:43.010 --> 01:18:46.609
mass destruction and that
they would be inclined to use

01:18:46.610 --> 01:18:50.494
those weapons against the United
States its allies and its interests.

01:18:50.495 --> 01:18:53.899
Well there are times I suppose

01:18:53.900 --> 01:18:57.529
when the nation has to go to war
but it ought to be limited to

01:18:57.530 --> 01:19:05.530
the times when your own nation is in dire
danger of being attacked or even destroyed.

01:19:05.585 --> 01:19:12.514
Then we have to prepare for war but wore
a such an ugly vicious savage affair.

01:19:12.515 --> 01:19:18.409
That the idea of the United States
starting a war to prevent a war

01:19:18.410 --> 01:19:22.249
Is I think misguided wrong.

01:19:22.250 --> 01:19:27.154
There is no sense in attacking a country

01:19:27.155 --> 01:19:33.484
that does not clearly demonstrate the
capability to harm the United States.

01:19:33.485 --> 01:19:39.769
This idea of a preventive war or whatever kind
of war you want to call it leaves it up to

01:19:39.770 --> 01:19:42.679
the United States to define the terms and

01:19:42.680 --> 01:19:46.579
start a war anywhere in the world
by simply declaring a war.

01:19:46.580 --> 01:19:50.344
For example in Iraq we were
not at war with a wreck.

01:19:50.345 --> 01:19:53.944
We\'re not at war with the
rack we attacked Iraq.

01:19:53.945 --> 01:19:58.054
By our own definition
of what the threat was

01:19:58.055 --> 01:20:01.039
Turns out there was no threat from a rack.

01:20:01.040 --> 01:20:04.399
Ray McGovern worked closely with a senior
George Bush when he was director of

01:20:04.400 --> 01:20:07.819
the CIA and later when he
was vice president you

01:20:07.820 --> 01:20:12.484
know sometimes the American
people are just as soon not no

01:20:12.485 --> 01:20:17.644
I\'m thinking of of August
of 1939 and Nazi Germany.

01:20:17.645 --> 01:20:19.759
That happens to be the
month that I was born in.

01:20:19.760 --> 01:20:24.184
And so I know a lot about
what happened in August 1939.

01:20:24.185 --> 01:20:29.509
And the German people were
sold a bill of goods.

01:20:29.510 --> 01:20:36.349
They know better the German government
to stage some Polish provocations.

01:20:36.350 --> 01:20:39.320
And though the war was launched

01:20:39.820 --> 01:20:47.820
I see February and March of 2003 here in
this country as being the equivalent to

01:20:50.150 --> 01:20:56.089
August 1939 in Nazi
Germany and we refuse to

01:20:56.090 --> 01:21:03.360
leave the Iraqi people in
slavery under Saddam Hussein.

01:21:03.910 --> 01:21:08.040
When the war in Iraq is one.

01:21:08.170 --> 01:21:12.619
All have joined his cause we\'ll be
able to say to the Iraqi people.

01:21:12.620 --> 01:21:16.590
We were proud to fight for your freedom

01:21:38.590 --> 01:21:43.279
And we felt we had to contain

01:21:43.280 --> 01:21:48.769
communism no communists and justified
that that\'s that\'s a word.

01:21:48.770 --> 01:21:53.404
For example nobody minded
Tito being a communist riot.

01:21:53.405 --> 01:21:58.999
And that was for real politic
reasons that you would have him

01:21:59.000 --> 01:22:02.404
I don\'t want to make light
of the communist question.

01:22:02.405 --> 01:22:05.659
On the other hand what is more important is

01:22:05.660 --> 01:22:10.564
the issue of the National
Liberation Movements which occurred

01:22:10.565 --> 01:22:13.819
and whether or not those people who lead

01:22:13.820 --> 01:22:19.399
those national liberation movements would
ask permission of the United States.

01:22:19.400 --> 01:22:22.069
They wouldn\'t do it. They
would be in trouble.

01:22:22.070 --> 01:22:25.939
Well people I spoke with sort of stance
for Turner and others so that we are

01:22:25.940 --> 01:22:29.899
going to re-encounter the Soviet Union
whether they\'re a couple of pieces to this.

01:22:29.900 --> 01:22:32.959
Obviously these men are young

01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:37.594
enough that they could have believed that the
other words there were young enough yeah.

01:22:37.595 --> 01:22:41.329
In other words these were people
in the middle of a bureaucracy

01:22:41.330 --> 01:22:45.574
who came to believe a certain set of

01:22:45.575 --> 01:22:48.799
ideas that people at the tops of

01:22:48.800 --> 01:22:53.749
those bureaucracies at that time
did not particularly believe them.

01:22:53.750 --> 01:23:01.279
It was very very hard for example for
anybody who cared to examine like cannon or

01:23:01.280 --> 01:23:04.999
Llewellyn Thompson or
others that the Stalin

01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:10.384
was indeed an expansionist that he
was going to go after West Europe.

01:23:10.385 --> 01:23:15.814
So in other words you have the dukes
and the duper you have you have.

01:23:15.815 --> 01:23:18.049
I think that\'s very strong.

01:23:18.050 --> 01:23:21.994
I think that what you have is the

01:23:21.995 --> 01:23:28.459
people who know better and the
people who are educated not

01:23:28.460 --> 01:23:30.979
to know better you know
in the United States

01:23:30.980 --> 01:23:35.104
the people there are two groups of
people who really know what goes on.

01:23:35.105 --> 01:23:39.090
One is rulers.

01:23:40.750 --> 01:23:48.750
And a if you will a ruling class
and the others are the very poor.

01:23:49.580 --> 01:23:56.599
And those are the two that really know how
things operate people in the middle don\'t

01:23:56.600 --> 01:23:59.119
the people in the middle are educated

01:23:59.120 --> 01:24:04.590
to believe in a certain kind
of passivity and acceptance

01:24:06.840 --> 01:24:12.189
One o that is Galleria note

01:24:12.190 --> 01:24:18.249
they\'re cations and event delayed
or at least it out near the status.

01:24:18.250 --> 01:24:23.990
She\'s a bow tie inverse stone-age
feuding tribes evacuated.

01:24:24.900 --> 01:24:32.900
Their weapons got our fishing that their
motivations remained exactly bands.

01:24:35.160 --> 01:24:41.304
Even on a daily basis without false
alarm or just you know up whiskers

01:24:41.305 --> 01:24:47.204
away from nuclear war wouldn\'t
do much harm other style app

01:24:47.205 --> 01:24:52.369
Nuclear weapons and in the
middle of the night when

01:24:52.370 --> 01:24:57.589
you have those terrible night
thought you wonder why is it

01:24:57.590 --> 01:25:03.529
that the whole planet is
living on the brink why is it

01:25:03.530 --> 01:25:06.169
that any second of any
minute of any hour of

01:25:06.170 --> 01:25:10.039
the day the planet can
literally be destroyed.

01:25:10.040 --> 01:25:13.519
And yet the people of the world and

01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:17.314
especially in the United States are very
cavalier about the whole proposition.

01:25:17.315 --> 01:25:21.979
Just like we had our guns
out ammunition loaded into

01:25:21.980 --> 01:25:27.240
the guns that they were caught
in our fingers on the trigger

01:25:31.780 --> 01:25:37.500
They are ready to go by the
thousands on both sides.

01:25:39.340 --> 01:25:43.849
It\'s hard to believe but the nuclear
missiles in both Russia and

01:25:43.850 --> 01:25:49.459
the United States today are still on
hair trigger alert more than ten years.

01:25:49.460 --> 01:25:53.329
After the end of the Cold War
nothing has really changed.

01:25:53.330 --> 01:25:55.710
It\'s really astonishing.

01:25:58.480 --> 01:26:03.904
The missiles or armed there fueled there.

01:26:03.905 --> 01:26:06.979
They\'re ready to fly at a
moment\'s notice all they need

01:26:06.980 --> 01:26:12.079
are three short computer
instructions signals

01:26:12.080 --> 01:26:15.168
in order to leave their silos and fly

01:26:15.169 --> 01:26:21.229
their 30-minute flights halfway around
the planet to targets that are still in

01:26:21.230 --> 01:26:25.669
the computer memories of the missiles
the whole posture is geared as it

01:26:25.670 --> 01:26:30.499
was during the Cold War to a
countdown measured in minutes.

01:26:30.500 --> 01:26:35.179
This was based on a false premise
that we pursued for many years

01:26:35.180 --> 01:26:39.829
and that is that we were vulnerable
to a surprise attack from

01:26:39.830 --> 01:26:43.069
the time the first sensor report
from a satellite or ground radar

01:26:43.070 --> 01:26:46.369
comes in till the time when
they have to assess whether or

01:26:46.370 --> 01:26:50.014
not we\'re under attack
three minutes to the time

01:26:50.015 --> 01:26:54.229
allowed for the President
and his nuclear advisors

01:26:54.230 --> 01:26:58.759
to be briefed on what\'s going on.

01:26:58.760 --> 01:27:03.289
And for example the command or out in Omaha

01:27:03.290 --> 01:27:07.879
that is responsible for all of our
nuclear missile force is supposed to

01:27:07.880 --> 01:27:11.629
brief the President on
his nuclear options and

01:27:11.630 --> 01:27:17.494
their consequences in thirty-seconds
that\'s how much time he\'s allowed.

01:27:17.495 --> 01:27:23.749
And then the President under the best of
circumstances is allowed really no more than 12

01:27:23.750 --> 01:27:30.214
minutes and probably considerably less
to decide whether to retaliate and then

01:27:30.215 --> 01:27:33.934
order has to go out immediately
to the Cruz who have

01:27:33.935 --> 01:27:37.549
approximately a two launched
drill from the time they

01:27:37.550 --> 01:27:42.994
receive an order until the time they turn
keys to fire missiles out of their silos.

01:27:42.995 --> 01:27:45.919
So today that\'s the posture and it would

01:27:45.920 --> 01:27:50.179
take no more than about ten
minutes from the beginning

01:27:50.180 --> 01:27:57.244
to the end to go through the whole launched
real it\'s it\'s not a rational process.

01:27:57.245 --> 01:28:01.264
It\'s a checklist a gigantic
nuclear checklist.

01:28:01.265 --> 01:28:02.824
Everything is done by rote.

01:28:02.825 --> 01:28:06.979
And so hopefully there isn\'t too much human

01:28:06.980 --> 01:28:13.410
air technical air false warning
feeding into this into this process

01:28:13.930 --> 01:28:21.930
Unfortunately today particularly in Russia
the command system and early warning.

01:28:22.130 --> 01:28:25.249
Infrastructure are deteriorating.

01:28:25.250 --> 01:28:27.529
So there\'s actually probably

01:28:27.530 --> 01:28:33.930
a much higher risk of a false alarm today
than there was even during the Cold War.

01:28:34.030 --> 01:28:39.139
We\'re on the brink of the
accidental or unauthorized use of

01:28:39.140 --> 01:28:43.819
nuclear forces for on a
constant day-to-day bases.

01:28:43.820 --> 01:28:47.280
Even today even today of course.

01:28:49.690 --> 01:28:55.789
There have been periods throughout the
Cold War when we moved even closer to

01:28:55.790 --> 01:29:01.234
the brink because of false warning
in Early Warning networks.

01:29:01.235 --> 01:29:09.235
I have faulty computer chip or human air
that that put the wrong tape simulating

01:29:09.545 --> 01:29:12.769
a Soviet attack into a
computer that then fed

01:29:12.770 --> 01:29:18.859
that indication of an attack throughout
the US entire nuclear command system.

01:29:18.860 --> 01:29:24.859
Are two examples a computer
chip malfunction that generated

01:29:24.860 --> 01:29:32.104
indications of a large-scale attack against
the United States and a human air in 1979

01:29:32.105 --> 01:29:33.619
in 1980.

01:29:33.620 --> 01:29:37.579
And those moved us closer
to the brink launched

01:29:37.580 --> 01:29:43.159
cruise in underground capsules retrieve
their keys from the safe and inserted

01:29:43.160 --> 01:29:49.609
the keys strapped in their chairs bracing for
an imminent incoming last they could rock

01:29:49.610 --> 01:29:54.619
their launch capsules and were
ready to fire soon as they got

01:29:54.620 --> 01:29:59.704
the word on several occasions
on the US side and on the

01:29:59.705 --> 01:30:05.719
soviet side during the Cold War these
scripts began to be enacted in.

01:30:05.720 --> 01:30:09.199
They moved us within minutes of

01:30:09.200 --> 01:30:15.064
a decision even seconds of a decision
on whether to fire missiles seconds.

01:30:15.065 --> 01:30:19.699
Well certainly within a
short number of minutes.

01:30:19.700 --> 01:30:24.214
I mean the President was not notified

01:30:24.215 --> 01:30:29.209
in either of those cases and 79 or
80 but we came within a whisker of

01:30:29.210 --> 01:30:34.624
the president being brought into an
emergency conference to decide whether to

01:30:34.625 --> 01:30:37.909
use our nuclear weapons and the person

01:30:37.910 --> 01:30:42.424
responsible for waking the President
was picking up the phone to wake him

01:30:42.425 --> 01:30:45.829
There have been some interesting
cases on the Soviet side.

01:30:45.830 --> 01:30:49.549
In one case in 1983 there
were indications of

01:30:49.550 --> 01:30:57.304
a large-scale attack unfolding against
the Soviet Union by the United States.

01:30:57.305 --> 01:30:59.689
And that could have been

01:30:59.690 --> 01:31:06.409
a very dangerous false alarm if it were
not for the fact that a kernel sitting in

01:31:06.410 --> 01:31:10.879
the hot seat assessing the
early warning just violated

01:31:10.880 --> 01:31:13.729
his procedures and decided that there\'s

01:31:13.730 --> 01:31:17.464
no way the Americans would be
attacking us in this manner.

01:31:17.465 --> 01:31:20.899
And he actually was then
fired even though he

01:31:20.900 --> 01:31:24.244
made the right decision of
deciding who was a false alarm

01:31:24.245 --> 01:31:26.389
He was actually a cashier it out of

01:31:26.390 --> 01:31:33.120
the Soviet nuclear force because he did
not follow procedure became an alcoholic.

01:31:37.780 --> 01:31:45.780
We failed to appreciate the magnitude of
the damage that these weapons would do.

01:31:46.400 --> 01:31:51.709
And we played games like we were
talking about artillery shells.

01:31:51.710 --> 01:31:58.819
When we were talking about destruction
of whole cities with a single weapon.

01:31:58.820 --> 01:32:01.849
So we were actually adopting a position in

01:32:01.850 --> 01:32:06.559
the hot highest levels of the US
government to encourage Russia

01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:11.299
To maintain its strategic missiles
on hair trigger alert into

01:32:11.300 --> 01:32:16.980
fire them at the first signs
of an apparent attack.

01:32:36.850 --> 01:32:42.799
The only rationality one
can cook up to explain

01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:48.304
this is that it\'s more dangerous
to stand down too quickly

01:32:48.305 --> 01:32:54.364
Now that we have limited capacity
to cut deals with Russia

01:32:54.365 --> 01:32:57.274
to stand down our forces
and as long as Russia

01:32:57.275 --> 01:33:00.574
keeps weapons on high alert we\'ve
gotta keep them on high alert.

01:33:00.575 --> 01:33:04.519
In case there\'s an unexpected contingency.

01:33:04.520 --> 01:33:10.234
It\'s an accident waiting to happen and both
sides need to recognize this danger and

01:33:10.235 --> 01:33:16.639
move in the exact opposite direction or to
stand down the forces from hair trigger alert.

01:33:16.640 --> 01:33:24.640
So do you think should be done countless
speedup we dismantle this apparatus yeah.

01:33:25.760 --> 01:33:30.484
Well of course both Russia and the United
States if they put their minds to it could

01:33:30.485 --> 01:33:34.249
easily stand down their nuclear forces.
Take them off high.

01:33:34.250 --> 01:33:37.189
High alert General Butler was
the commander in chief of

01:33:37.190 --> 01:33:39.439
the United States Strategic
Command which has

01:33:39.440 --> 01:33:43.189
authority over all
strategic nuclear weapons.

01:33:43.190 --> 01:33:46.009
Standing down nuclear arsenals requires

01:33:46.010 --> 01:33:51.439
only a fraction of the ingenuity and
resources as were devoted to their creation.

01:33:51.440 --> 01:33:55.459
As a matter of fact there\'s a
precedent for this in 1991.

01:33:55.460 --> 01:33:58.609
President Bush number one.

01:33:58.610 --> 01:34:06.610
In 1991 stood down practically overnight
thousands of US strategic nuclear weapons.

01:34:09.310 --> 01:34:15.889
They\'re basically a small
number of vested interests with

01:34:15.890 --> 01:34:19.429
an interest in promoting
nuclear weapons they are

01:34:19.430 --> 01:34:24.109
the nuclear weapons laboratories
Los Alamos and Livermore.

01:34:24.110 --> 01:34:29.314
They are the strategic command
in Omaha Nebraska which controls

01:34:29.315 --> 01:34:34.849
the current US strategic arsenal of submarines
and bombers and underground missiles.

01:34:34.850 --> 01:34:42.850
And then a handful of ideologues in the civilian
side of this of the Defense Department.

01:34:43.295 --> 01:34:47.014
But that\'s a very small group
of people and it\'s shrinking.

01:34:47.015 --> 01:34:48.584
I think that

01:34:48.585 --> 01:34:53.499
The prevailing view in some conservative
circles in the US government

01:34:53.500 --> 01:34:58.629
is that there are good guys with nuclear
weapons and bad guys with nuclear weapons

01:34:58.630 --> 01:35:03.564
and or chemical or biological
weapons and that we need

01:35:03.565 --> 01:35:08.904
our nuclear weapons to be able to
dominate and take out if necessary

01:35:08.905 --> 01:35:13.569
the bad guys Russia and the
United States have moved away

01:35:13.570 --> 01:35:18.429
from nuclear policy based
on second strike deterrence

01:35:18.430 --> 01:35:23.409
toward a policy of first use of
nuclear weapons early first use

01:35:23.410 --> 01:35:29.154
against either each other or other countries
whether there are nuclear armed or not.

01:35:29.155 --> 01:35:30.929
The US refuses

01:35:30.930 --> 01:35:34.654
State it will not be the first
to use nuclear weapons.

01:35:34.655 --> 01:35:38.389
It refused to say it will not be the
first to use nuclear weapons against

01:35:38.390 --> 01:35:43.309
non-nuclear states and against
nuclear states it retains to itself.

01:35:43.310 --> 01:35:47.314
The right to decide when
to use nuclear weapons.

01:35:47.315 --> 01:35:52.714
I think that\'s a very unwise
irresponsible policy.

01:35:52.715 --> 01:35:54.859
In our own interest.

01:35:54.860 --> 01:35:56.824
We should move away from it.

01:35:56.825 --> 01:36:01.009
It\'s it\'s morally wrong
to think about using

01:36:01.010 --> 01:36:06.229
a nuclear weapon against a non-nuclear
state it\'s politically indefensible.

01:36:06.230 --> 01:36:13.143
It\'s militarily unnecessary against
a nuclear state. It\'s suicide

01:36:13.144 --> 01:36:21.144
So nuclear weapons today are viewed as
instruments of of domination of threat.

01:36:21.890 --> 01:36:27.270
And if necessary of of military utility.

01:36:27.910 --> 01:36:32.779
Nuclear weapons didn\'t deter
the terrorist attack on line

01:36:32.780 --> 01:36:38.404
11 and they won\'t deter a
terrorist threat in the future.

01:36:38.405 --> 01:36:43.399
Nuclear weapons had no military
utility in Afghanistan or in

01:36:43.400 --> 01:36:50.370
Iraq or any other plausible
crisis around the world

01:36:50.590 --> 01:36:56.284
Issue which now confronts the nuclear
powers and engages the vital interest

01:36:56.285 --> 01:37:01.459
of every nation whether the world
is better served by a prolonged era

01:37:01.460 --> 01:37:04.669
of cautious nuclear
weapons reductions toward

01:37:04.670 --> 01:37:10.039
some indeterminate endpoint are
by an unqualified commitment on

01:37:10.040 --> 01:37:14.389
the part of the nuclear powers to
move with much greater urgency

01:37:14.390 --> 01:37:19.129
toward the goal of eliminating
these arsenals in their entirety.

01:37:19.130 --> 01:37:22.429
But today the US has on the order of

01:37:22.430 --> 01:37:26.539
6 thousand strategic nuclear weapons on on

01:37:26.540 --> 01:37:31.039
a high state of word and Russia has
roughly the same number of 6 thousand

01:37:31.040 --> 01:37:35.059
And we\'ll reach a grade that
over the next ten years

01:37:35.060 --> 01:37:39.979
will reduce those to about 2
thousand age but will retain.

01:37:39.980 --> 01:37:46.159
The 4 thousand taking out will retain two or
3 thousand in a state of readiness such that

01:37:46.160 --> 01:37:52.204
we could put them back on alert if that
seemed necessary and that\'s ridiculous.

01:37:52.205 --> 01:37:55.684
2 thousand warheads is far
more than we could possibly.

01:37:55.685 --> 01:38:00.079
Ever employ imagine with 2
thousand Hiroshima is somewhere

01:38:00.080 --> 01:38:04.939
in this world and these weapons are
40 times as powerful as Hiroshima.

01:38:04.940 --> 01:38:12.940
What in God\'s name are we think if we want to
protect ourselves against nuclear terrorism

01:38:13.085 --> 01:38:16.879
We want to take our weapons
off Alert put them in

01:38:16.880 --> 01:38:21.079
storage and secure them
against any any theft.

01:38:21.080 --> 01:38:26.464
If we want to expose ourselves to maximum
terrorist threat we keep them on

01:38:26.465 --> 01:38:28.519
hair trigger alert and give

01:38:28.520 --> 01:38:33.319
terrorists reason to think that if they
could take them over they could fire them.

01:38:33.320 --> 01:38:36.229
We all wanted to work towards
a world in which we do

01:38:36.230 --> 01:38:39.754
away with these weapons entirely
but that\'s pretty idealistic.

01:38:39.755 --> 01:38:42.244
In the near future.

01:38:42.245 --> 01:38:45.289
I don\'t regard it as utopian at all.

01:38:45.290 --> 01:38:49.579
I think it\'s a very good idea that

01:38:49.580 --> 01:38:55.084
the merits of having a nuclear weapon free
world ought to be obvious to everybody

01:38:55.085 --> 01:38:58.339
Nuclear weapons just do not represent

01:38:58.340 --> 01:39:02.989
an attractive option in the
minds of almost everyone who

01:39:02.990 --> 01:39:06.019
gives you any thought
to the matter including

01:39:06.020 --> 01:39:12.060
virtually everyone in uniform
including the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

01:39:37.720 --> 01:39:42.304
The group was perameters.

01:39:42.305 --> 01:39:48.240
Developmental cues on gamma.

01:39:49.780 --> 01:39:56.554
K is best seen a coin isn\'t
as common as in the human.

01:39:56.555 --> 01:39:59.430
He can facilitate me here.

01:40:00.340 --> 01:40:04.474
If you are a Campesino living
out in the countryside and

01:40:04.475 --> 01:40:08.839
you are living on $2 a
day very often $1 a day.

01:40:08.840 --> 01:40:12.649
Imagine feeding your family on
a dollar a day paying for your

01:40:12.650 --> 01:40:17.644
Food transportation housing
education fertilizer

01:40:17.645 --> 01:40:20.850
all of these things on
a single dollar a day.

01:40:26.590 --> 01:40:32.119
I would tell you that I think our
presence in Colombia has been

01:40:32.120 --> 01:40:34.459
a very positive factor with

01:40:34.460 --> 01:40:39.270
the improvements that have been
made on the human rights front.

01:40:46.690 --> 01:40:50.809
I\'m not sure that we\'ve
moved aggressively to

01:40:50.810 --> 01:40:54.829
really realize fully the
opportunities that exist

01:40:54.830 --> 01:40:58.219
through closer cooperation and integration

01:40:58.220 --> 01:41:01.939
of activities between ourselves
and the nations in the region.

01:41:01.940 --> 01:41:06.109
It\'s home to a half of a billion
people who spend somewhere

01:41:06.110 --> 01:41:10.279
between 4550% of the revenues that they

01:41:10.280 --> 01:41:15.499
invest on imported goods on imported goods
and services from the United States.

01:41:15.500 --> 01:41:18.244
So it\'s economically important to us.

01:41:18.245 --> 01:41:26.245
If you look at the oil reserves
in Venezuela and Colombia in

01:41:26.390 --> 01:41:30.378
Trinidad and Tobago on offshore
Latin America presents

01:41:30.379 --> 01:41:36.210
an alternative to some of our dependence
on the Middle East for fossil fuels

01:41:39.460 --> 01:41:43.339
So it\'s an important region
Dawson It\'s needless to

01:41:43.340 --> 01:41:46.549
say Important to the 0.5
million people who live there.

01:41:46.550 --> 01:41:49.819
And I wonder about can
we really come to terms

01:41:49.820 --> 01:41:54.829
with doing right by the
people there as well as by

01:41:54.830 --> 01:41:59.659
ourselves for I think at a certain
point in time you need to move

01:41:59.660 --> 01:42:05.910
past past history and concentrate
on the present and the future.

01:42:06.280 --> 01:42:09.694
We are not paying attention to

01:42:09.695 --> 01:42:13.984
the real root causes of so many
of the problems in Latin America

01:42:13.985 --> 01:42:16.789
And we only pay attention to
Latin America when there\'s

01:42:16.790 --> 01:42:19.459
a security interests
involved Simply stated.

01:42:19.460 --> 01:42:23.929
In some cases we\'ve taken Latin
America for granted and other cases.

01:42:23.930 --> 01:42:27.739
I think we\'ve managed our
relationship by benign neglect.

01:42:27.740 --> 01:42:33.229
Well I wouldn\'t say that our policy toward
Latin America\'s when a benign neglect.

01:42:33.230 --> 01:42:36.229
It\'s certainly been one
of neglect but it hasn\'t

01:42:36.230 --> 01:42:39.900
been all that the benign for the
people who are living there.

01:42:40.600 --> 01:42:45.270
In the name of the drug war we\'re getting
much more involved in Latin America.

01:42:48.970 --> 01:42:52.519
Imagine feeding your
family on a dollar a day.

01:42:52.520 --> 01:42:56.284
And then imagine well you could
put a seed into the ground

01:42:56.285 --> 01:42:58.549
And illegal seed and come up with

01:42:58.550 --> 01:43:02.149
a drug crop and elicit crop
that\'s going to feed your family.

01:43:02.150 --> 01:43:06.724
Anywhere from two to five times as much

01:43:06.725 --> 01:43:11.989
as we\'d be able to make growing
potatoes or or pineapples or corn.

01:43:11.990 --> 01:43:14.209
It\'s not much of a choice for these people.

01:43:14.210 --> 01:43:18.049
What is afflicting US foreign
policy towards Colombia is

01:43:18.050 --> 01:43:23.089
a certain naivete of
cynicism that says that you

01:43:23.090 --> 01:43:26.434
can suppress or diminish

01:43:26.435 --> 01:43:32.359
the cocaine trade by going after
revolutionaries This is simply untrue.

01:43:32.360 --> 01:43:35.524
It is the entire Colombian Society.

01:43:35.525 --> 01:43:41.989
This is shot through with corruption
because of the huge profits that are to be

01:43:41.990 --> 01:43:49.990
gained by Coca by the
manufacturer of cocaine.

01:43:50.825 --> 01:43:58.009
And here is where you go back to the original
sin of US foreign policy or US policy is

01:43:58.010 --> 01:44:06.010
that we are trying spending billions of
dollars in Colombia to suppress the supply.

01:44:06.110 --> 01:44:13.080
And we are spending almost nothing by
comparison to shrivel demand in this cup

01:44:38.980 --> 01:44:46.980
It makes no sense whatsoever to go at the
at the suppression of dark colleagues

01:44:47.315 --> 01:44:51.319
through the supply side what you have to do

01:44:51.320 --> 01:44:56.074
capitalism nobody has repealed
the law of supply and demand.

01:44:56.075 --> 01:45:00.274
As long as you have a demand
you will have a supply

01:45:00.275 --> 01:45:07.510
And I said I need not even
decolonial yellows is

01:45:10.210 --> 01:45:14.089
inadequate because I want to
give her niece or when they see

01:45:14.090 --> 01:45:22.090
that it\'s even less

01:45:22.970 --> 01:45:27.760
conscientious yes or no

01:45:34.960 --> 01:45:41.569
The United States is as an effect utilized

01:45:41.570 --> 01:45:46.714
the narcotics problem as a rationale for

01:45:46.715 --> 01:45:52.174
interfering for introducing
its military presence.

01:45:52.175 --> 01:45:57.289
In countries such as Columbia
where the sensible thing to do

01:45:57.290 --> 01:46:03.409
would be to encourage
negotiations and encourage a.

01:46:03.410 --> 01:46:10.399
A settlement of the outstanding issues between
the revolutionaries and the government

01:46:10.400 --> 01:46:17.629
and use the money that we save to up
to shovel the demand in this country

01:46:17.630 --> 01:46:22.009
A few years ago the Rand Corporation
very conservative think tank

01:46:22.010 --> 01:46:23.194
does allow consulting for

01:46:23.195 --> 01:46:26.179
the military was commissioned
by the Army and by

01:46:26.180 --> 01:46:30.904
the US drugs ours office to do a
study called controlling cocaine.

01:46:30.905 --> 01:46:35.824
They compared several methods of
dealing with the drug problem.

01:46:35.825 --> 01:46:38.734
One method is prevention and treatment.

01:46:38.735 --> 01:46:41.809
I was by far the most cost-effective.

01:46:41.810 --> 01:46:46.159
The next one was police measures at home.

01:46:46.160 --> 01:46:52.024
That I think was about 1 seventh as
cost-effective as prevention and treatment.

01:46:52.025 --> 01:46:55.009
The next was border interdiction

01:46:55.010 --> 01:46:58.069
was 1 11th as effective.

01:46:58.070 --> 01:47:02.074
The next was out of country operations
like fumigation and Columbia.

01:47:02.075 --> 01:47:06.484
And there the ratio was 23 to one in
favor of prevention and treatment.

01:47:06.485 --> 01:47:08.959
That\'s just in terms of cost effectiveness.

01:47:08.960 --> 01:47:11.599
And so we tried to increase

01:47:11.600 --> 01:47:14.839
our military and security assistance
in the name of fighting the war on

01:47:14.840 --> 01:47:17.509
drugs flooding the crop
destroying the crops at

01:47:17.510 --> 01:47:21.544
these peasant farmers are growing
and thereby creating new enemies.

01:47:21.545 --> 01:47:24.619
Senator fritz Hollinger
from South Carolina.

01:47:24.620 --> 01:47:28.669
Last year said during a
hearing on on terrorism he

01:47:28.670 --> 01:47:33.064
said you know we seem to be create and
terrorists faster than we can kill him.

01:47:33.065 --> 01:47:37.714
And in a way he\'s really
captured that the problem

01:47:37.715 --> 01:47:42.709
And I would find it very very difficult
to make the case that what we\'re doing in

01:47:42.710 --> 01:47:48.409
Colombia aggravates the plight of
the people in the country side.

01:47:48.410 --> 01:47:53.119
Just so you\'ve Nancy
scientists for Columbia.

01:47:53.120 --> 01:47:57.514
Dorset they either saw handled and
other humans of the Columbia.

01:47:57.515 --> 01:48:04.939
Tomato tomato is from Edward Qian gear
Suo pedal implemented ARM Delos Estonia.

01:48:04.940 --> 01:48:08.179
So say Colombian music nano
second one Plan Colombia

01:48:08.180 --> 01:48:11.914
I would submit to you
that what we\'re seeing

01:48:11.915 --> 01:48:15.079
at least in recent months
and years indicates

01:48:15.080 --> 01:48:17.989
that some progress is being made in

01:48:17.990 --> 01:48:21.964
addressing the security and
stability concerns in Colombia.

01:48:21.965 --> 01:48:25.114
The size of the armed
forces had been created

01:48:25.115 --> 01:48:28.879
with our help the armed forces
have achieved a greater level of

01:48:28.880 --> 01:48:31.759
mobility largely through
the provision of us

01:48:31.760 --> 01:48:36.424
helicopters that enabled them to more
effectively control the countryside.

01:48:36.425 --> 01:48:39.349
And a lot of these campesinos who
had been abandoned by the state

01:48:39.350 --> 01:48:43.924
historically are first getting some
initial interactions with the state.

01:48:43.925 --> 01:48:46.414
Then that takes the form
of helicopter gunships.

01:48:46.415 --> 01:48:50.074
And we\'ll fumigation spray planes
coming to destroy their crops

01:48:50.075 --> 01:48:53.659
Military incursions that come in
in advance of the military to try

01:48:53.660 --> 01:48:57.499
to kill suspected gorilla collaborators.

01:48:57.500 --> 01:49:02.239
And so they\'re learning to associate
the state and the United States

01:49:02.240 --> 01:49:08.490
with death and destruction and suffering because
they offend survey and it just Manassas.

01:49:10.000 --> 01:49:16.084
But every humanist they will
pace that it\'s just a month.

01:49:16.085 --> 01:49:20.704
And a lot of our policymakers look at
the world through the lens of security.

01:49:20.705 --> 01:49:24.109
They want stability but they don\'t
want to do what it takes to

01:49:24.110 --> 01:49:27.889
really make things sustainably
secure or stable.

01:49:27.890 --> 01:49:32.509
So very often the response
is a very shortsighted one

01:49:32.510 --> 01:49:36.319
We have to impose stability
on Columbia and other places.

01:49:36.320 --> 01:49:39.019
Well if you try to impose
stability without first

01:49:39.020 --> 01:49:41.599
establishing legitimacy and
we\'ve been there before in

01:49:41.600 --> 01:49:44.193
Latin America many times
over it\'s called repression

01:49:44.194 --> 01:49:48.574
and beyond and put tomatoes
Casey military sound.

01:49:48.575 --> 01:49:55.894
Like that was a policy Nationale.

01:49:55.895 --> 01:49:58.764
Did total military.

01:49:58.765 --> 01:50:06.765
Cocaine narcotics are Columbia\'s
leading export larger than oil

01:50:08.180 --> 01:50:14.269
Larger than coffee the idea
that some campesinos and

01:50:14.270 --> 01:50:20.269
some revolutionaries are responsible
for this is simply untrue.

01:50:20.270 --> 01:50:28.270
Any industry of that size has to involve
business banking transportation and

01:50:30.575 --> 01:50:35.749
the military and civilian governments
of the country I think part of

01:50:35.750 --> 01:50:39.229
the plan and part of the interests
of the United States and

01:50:39.230 --> 01:50:44.044
Colombia is not really
so much about Narcotics.

01:50:44.045 --> 01:50:48.990
It\'s about having a friendly
regime in Colombia.

01:50:54.790 --> 01:51:02.790
The origin of US involvement in the Colombian
war came when President poststrata

01:51:05.210 --> 01:51:10.474
visited Washington with a plan he called

01:51:10.475 --> 01:51:18.364
Plan Colombia Plan Colombia was
incorrectly interpreted by far too many.

01:51:18.365 --> 01:51:20.809
To be a military plan.

01:51:20.810 --> 01:51:25.309
It really wasn\'t a military
plan with a social dimension.

01:51:25.310 --> 01:51:29.269
It was a social plan with
the military dimension.

01:51:29.270 --> 01:51:32.644
You know once upon a time that was the case

01:51:32.645 --> 01:51:37.024
The original draft of Plan Colombia which
never really saw the light of day.

01:51:37.025 --> 01:51:43.369
Had overwhelmingly social social
programs at its heart for

01:51:43.370 --> 01:51:46.189
the first time it was going to
look at some of the root causes of

01:51:46.190 --> 01:51:49.999
this conflict to do rural development
to try to win hearts and minds.

01:51:50.000 --> 01:51:52.459
Try to bring people into
the fold of the state.

01:51:52.460 --> 01:51:55.459
But when President restaurant
I shot that plan around to

01:51:55.460 --> 01:51:59.029
the international community when I got
to Washington the Clinton administration

01:51:59.030 --> 01:52:02.689
basically let it be known fairly quickly that
look we got no money in this congress for

01:52:02.690 --> 01:52:07.159
any kind of tax and spend liberal
social welfare development programs.

01:52:07.160 --> 01:52:09.079
But if you want money to
buy drugs will get you

01:52:09.080 --> 01:52:12.574
that ongoing fight against the drug lords.

01:52:12.575 --> 01:52:14.749
The narco terrorists if you will

01:52:14.750 --> 01:52:21.019
It does require the use of military force
as a portion of a much larger strategy

01:52:21.020 --> 01:52:23.959
that addresses political
economic and social issues

01:52:23.960 --> 01:52:27.559
in the Plan Colombia appropriations
that were debated the US Congress.

01:52:27.560 --> 01:52:29.569
A little bit of money was set aside for

01:52:29.570 --> 01:52:33.679
so-called alternative development that
basically it was a fig leaf to place

01:52:33.680 --> 01:52:40.279
over an unsightly overwhelmingly
militarized aid package.

01:52:40.280 --> 01:52:45.799
But what is important to remember is the
intent of the plan widely construed in

01:52:45.800 --> 01:52:49.069
the United States and incorrectly so as

01:52:49.070 --> 01:52:52.789
a military plan with a social
dimension that is wrong.

01:52:52.790 --> 01:52:57.364
In its design Plan
Colombia is a social plan

01:52:57.365 --> 01:53:02.914
a military dimension but isn\'t that a small
fraction of the money that\'s going to

01:53:02.915 --> 01:53:09.049
Plan Colombia isn\'t by far the greatest
part toward military and drug war.

01:53:09.050 --> 01:53:13.129
The largest part of the
US contribution is toward

01:53:13.130 --> 01:53:15.709
the military component and

01:53:15.710 --> 01:53:20.104
the associated struggle against
the drug industry and Columbia.

01:53:20.105 --> 01:53:25.849
The funds that are being obligated
by the Colombian government and

01:53:25.850 --> 01:53:27.829
external donors which have not met

01:53:27.830 --> 01:53:32.404
expectations are oriented on those
other dimensions that I talked about.

01:53:32.405 --> 01:53:35.854
And so the US ended up
rewriting Plan Colombia

01:53:35.855 --> 01:53:40.789
Our money our funding of Colombia
since the year 2 thousand has been

01:53:40.790 --> 01:53:45.859
roughly 80% military and police with
only the remaining drags are 20% or so

01:53:45.860 --> 01:53:47.839
going toward alternative
development traditional

01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:51.349
reform human rights and other
social and economic needs and

01:53:51.350 --> 01:53:57.769
Colombia and the so-called social
side of the of Plan Colombia where

01:53:57.770 --> 01:54:00.589
the Colombian government promised
billions the Europeans were

01:54:00.590 --> 01:54:04.579
alleged to have committed money
to this never materialized.

01:54:04.580 --> 01:54:08.790
And so what we\'re left with is an
overwhelmingly militarized aid package

01:54:16.630 --> 01:54:20.734
Columbia thinks the second most
biodiverse country in the world.

01:54:20.735 --> 01:54:24.559
And we are spraying a hundreds
of thousands of acres of

01:54:24.560 --> 01:54:27.319
this very fragile ecosystem where they\'re

01:54:27.320 --> 01:54:30.439
very powerful herbicide
creating scorched earth.

01:54:30.440 --> 01:54:32.074
As far as the eye can see.

01:54:32.075 --> 01:54:35.599
What do you do as a human
rights defender because look at

01:54:35.600 --> 01:54:40.204
the Camala fans on average of someone
else and K consists is the throne.

01:54:40.205 --> 01:54:45.109
Et cetera haha sees the last company.

01:54:45.110 --> 01:54:47.074
I mean far less common. Yes effect.

01:54:47.075 --> 01:54:51.724
Does Portland era in honor Boy.

01:54:51.725 --> 01:54:57.060
I just Napoleon tos and team.

01:54:57.100 --> 01:54:59.644
Second binomial into

01:54:59.645 --> 01:55:04.599
Co-exist in different debbie said Law
was the risk and anti-money sponsored

01:55:04.600 --> 01:55:09.799
this but assume a seemingly
50k is secondary.

01:55:09.800 --> 01:55:13.129
Gotta module two. We are
personality Via Flaminia.

01:55:13.130 --> 01:55:15.874
Borderline Cousera does community ies.

01:55:15.875 --> 01:55:19.459
E-book good thing. Important is
the you know either my hope.

01:55:19.460 --> 01:55:24.799
And I think it\'s also incorrect to say
that through the fumigation effort we

01:55:24.800 --> 01:55:32.800
produce devastated earth and integrate
brown brown swath across the hemisphere.

01:55:32.840 --> 01:55:34.489
That\'s really not true.

01:55:34.490 --> 01:55:37.969
Care has been taken and the
selection of the agents that

01:55:37.970 --> 01:55:41.554
had been used in the fumigation. Campaign

01:55:41.555 --> 01:55:44.704
This is not Agent Orange from Vietnam.

01:55:44.705 --> 01:55:51.439
This these are other substances that we know
number one do not damage the environment.

01:55:51.440 --> 01:55:55.564
Number two they\'re not injuries
to people or to livestock.

01:55:55.565 --> 01:55:59.869
You\'ve got a family to me that no
soda will allow elaborate here.

01:55:59.870 --> 01:56:04.099
And I\'m gonna say I don\'t know when the.

01:56:04.100 --> 01:56:08.959
And that\'s enough for me guns to

01:56:08.960 --> 01:56:15.079
many Columbia runs these natural resources
are are the patrimony of all Columbia.

01:56:15.080 --> 01:56:19.594
And it\'s being destroyed because
the US government insists on

01:56:19.595 --> 01:56:23.989
this drug war policy to me the
evidence has been persuasive

01:56:23.990 --> 01:56:28.740
that the substances that we\'re using.

01:56:28.930 --> 01:56:34.249
In the eradication campaign
one are not harmful to

01:56:34.250 --> 01:56:38.639
people too they don\'t penetrate
the soil and then damaged

01:56:38.640 --> 01:56:43.774
the land for cultivation of licit
crops three they don\'t enter

01:56:43.775 --> 01:56:51.304
the water the water sources and contaminate
the water sources within the region.

01:56:51.305 --> 01:56:53.179
Well actually that\'s not true at all.

01:56:53.180 --> 01:56:55.699
I\'ve I\'ve been down there. I\'ve
documented this input to Maya.

01:56:55.700 --> 01:57:00.679
I\'ve taken countless photographs of water
sources that I got sprayed of people with

01:57:00.680 --> 01:57:06.259
rashes of fields pastures that haven\'t
sprayed that had no cocoa whatsoever.

01:57:06.260 --> 01:57:08.089
Model farms that were growing

01:57:08.090 --> 01:57:13.264
alternative development crops have
gotten destroyed by a fumigation planes.

01:57:13.265 --> 01:57:16.549
Will these substances kill other plants

01:57:16.550 --> 01:57:20.134
licit crops that are grown
side-by-side yes they will.

01:57:20.135 --> 01:57:22.414
That\'s their property.

01:57:22.415 --> 01:57:28.609
The eradication missions that I observe
taking place and being planned.

01:57:28.610 --> 01:57:33.874
I think were conducted with due
attention to all of these factors

01:57:33.875 --> 01:57:39.619
It is a fairly indiscriminate pattern of
fumigation in southern Columbia because I had

01:57:39.620 --> 01:57:45.199
an invitation for when the generals in
Colombia and shown you meet with them.

01:57:45.200 --> 01:57:53.200
And so soon I\'m still place though of course
escape no you know quell lucky lucky to me.

01:57:55.220 --> 01:58:02.029
Is as he dossier on I can\'t believe that
he would affirm what you\'re saying and

01:58:02.030 --> 01:58:10.030
that\'s what right do

01:58:10.490 --> 01:58:16.519
we have to be there at all you compare the
effects of tobacco to cocaine and heroin and

01:58:16.520 --> 01:58:19.849
Tobacco kills more people
by far them cocaine heroin

01:58:19.850 --> 01:58:25.170
combined but that doesn\'t give anybody
the right to defoliate North Carolina.

01:58:27.130 --> 01:58:31.099
What does our right to
be there Well I think

01:58:31.100 --> 01:58:34.249
there are two factors in this one
where they\'re at the request of

01:58:34.250 --> 01:58:36.859
the Colombian Government the United States

01:58:36.860 --> 01:58:39.199
pressured the Colombian government
for years and years and

01:58:39.200 --> 01:58:44.239
years starting in the early to mid 19 seventies
to allow glyphosate fumigation to happen.

01:58:44.240 --> 01:58:45.889
The Colombian said no.

01:58:45.890 --> 01:58:49.699
We\'re nervous about this we
prefer manual eradication.

01:58:49.700 --> 01:58:51.829
If we\'re gonna do anything
send the troops into uproot

01:58:51.830 --> 01:58:55.114
the crops the United States
pushed and pushed and pushed.

01:58:55.115 --> 01:58:58.669
Goryeo nautical amino I
love vocal and piano

01:58:58.670 --> 01:59:06.670
It seems pointless campuses put two medians

01:59:07.250 --> 01:59:10.819
is eliciting DNS Baba my density
of null and not to say that

01:59:10.820 --> 01:59:12.529
the government speaks for

01:59:12.530 --> 01:59:16.680
the compass casinos and indigenous
people hooked to my oh absolutely not.

01:59:22.240 --> 01:59:27.964
In 19757 of the 32 nations

01:59:27.965 --> 01:59:34.759
in the Caribbean Central and South
America were legitimate democracies.

01:59:34.760 --> 01:59:40.249
Today that number just a little more
than a quarter of a century later

01:59:40.250 --> 01:59:45.829
That number is 31 of 32 nations
are functioning democracies with

01:59:45.830 --> 01:59:52.369
free market economies of one sort or
another 3132 countries have elections.

01:59:52.370 --> 01:59:58.264
Yes. Whether there to call
that a measure of success.

01:59:58.265 --> 02:00:03.589
It\'s something I suppose but if
you do they have the same degrees

02:00:03.590 --> 02:00:08.479
of freedom to organize to to
write critical articles in

02:00:08.480 --> 02:00:13.249
the press to form opposition political
parties outside of the system to denounce

02:00:13.250 --> 02:00:16.219
corruption to form a labor union to

02:00:16.220 --> 02:00:19.414
there this the same degrees of
freedom even as we enjoy here.

02:00:19.415 --> 02:00:21.319
And the majority of cases no

02:00:21.320 --> 02:00:23.989
the majority of cases you\'re talking
about countries that have just had

02:00:23.990 --> 02:00:28.444
a few elections limited to
in the past 20 years or so

02:00:28.445 --> 02:00:31.264
limited to a very narrow circle of

02:00:31.265 --> 02:00:33.229
politicians who usually have

02:00:33.230 --> 02:00:36.214
the same last names as the people
who own the largest corporations.

02:00:36.215 --> 02:00:38.629
Boy free and fair elections.

02:00:38.630 --> 02:00:44.820
One of the most dangerous jobs in Colombia is
to be a mayor of a small town for instance.

02:00:49.780 --> 02:00:53.014
Get assassinated at an astonishing rate.

02:00:53.015 --> 02:00:56.719
Historically progressive
candidates had been

02:00:56.720 --> 02:01:02.040
slaughtered by paramilitary
is by military. Forces

02:01:02.890 --> 02:01:10.890
I do know that goes to a job and when

02:01:11.420 --> 02:01:16.489
his cola Polonius e estimate was I\'m

02:01:16.490 --> 02:01:22.054
Landow The I\'ve got Washington
Post led the Rayleigh bus.

02:01:22.055 --> 02:01:28.009
In this momentum Pesaro doses
numerous seeming goodness Enya

02:01:28.010 --> 02:01:35.494
and tomorrow we\'ll lose me use
Gustavo cuando forever unless cola.

02:01:35.495 --> 02:01:40.710
Yoko hero and those lower PRO.

02:01:41.110 --> 02:01:44.610
Innuendo legato

02:01:45.010 --> 02:01:50.779
It did agnostic Black
away suddenly new set.

02:01:50.780 --> 02:01:58.780
I don\'t garden this tower was in media domain
a bizarre grocery wireless Gilead Yeah.

02:02:00.275 --> 02:02:08.275
But I mean for us at boiling Ghetto is
but his Momento JOB though there\'s less.

02:02:10.505 --> 02:02:14.464
Less causes servers Emilio mutual.

02:02:14.465 --> 02:02:20.029
Anemia did those news it may get
more light than this beta cap.

02:02:20.030 --> 02:02:27.619
Without moves. He knows me
news man with you. On a gamma

02:02:27.620 --> 02:02:30.888
real diversity real pluralism
real participation

02:02:30.889 --> 02:02:33.514
is still a dream in much of Latin America.

02:02:33.515 --> 02:02:37.234
I let us say that a better day.

02:02:37.235 --> 02:02:44.550
Psychoanalysts balance
beam yellowness Academy.

02:02:51.520 --> 02:02:57.379
The military leaders with whom I dealt
while I was at Southern Command

02:02:57.380 --> 02:03:05.280
were the most insistent that one human
rights violation was one too many

02:03:13.750 --> 02:03:16.549
As late as about

02:03:16.550 --> 02:03:22.819
the mid nineties surveys conducted by human
rights and others who I assume can be

02:03:22.820 --> 02:03:27.559
categorized as impartial
observers credited 50% or

02:03:27.560 --> 02:03:32.449
more of the human rights violations to
the Armed Forces of Columbia itself.

02:03:32.450 --> 02:03:35.644
Today that figure is less than 2%.

02:03:35.645 --> 02:03:38.029
It\'s true that the Colombian
government used to

02:03:38.030 --> 02:03:42.334
commit a great deal of human rights
abuses and particularly the military.

02:03:42.335 --> 02:03:47.239
In recent years that has been that kind of

02:03:47.240 --> 02:03:53.029
repressive human rights abuses have been
outsourced if you will to the parent militaries.

02:03:53.030 --> 02:03:57.139
No Ghetto in nasal Plato CSR decompose who

02:03:57.140 --> 02:04:00.769
lives for Kayla little post but I mean
that is as an int that all host sushi

02:04:00.770 --> 02:04:08.770
okay well the dirty work is being done by
all of the so-called agents of violence.

02:04:09.755 --> 02:04:11.989
Let\'s not talk about the parent militaries.

02:04:11.990 --> 02:04:16.039
That\'s one part of three
elements of violence in

02:04:16.040 --> 02:04:21.064
Colombia the para militaries
the ELN and the FARC.

02:04:21.065 --> 02:04:26.749
Now recent statistics and investigations by

02:04:26.750 --> 02:04:30.169
Human Rights Watch and others have tagged

02:04:30.170 --> 02:04:35.494
the AUC the right-wing para
militaries as being the

02:04:35.495 --> 02:04:41.974
Most prominent violators of human
rights but in no way should we

02:04:41.975 --> 02:04:48.574
absolve either the FARC are the ELN first
of all there\'s the official military.

02:04:48.575 --> 02:04:54.154
Secondly there are the power
militaries which in effect

02:04:54.155 --> 02:05:01.204
the informal support army
of the official army.

02:05:01.205 --> 02:05:08.329
I think it\'s very very grave era to refer to
the AUC as attache of the Colombian army.

02:05:08.330 --> 02:05:15.244
I think it\'s quite legitimate to say
that they are FA caches of the military.

02:05:15.245 --> 02:05:17.119
But in one sense

02:05:17.120 --> 02:05:23.104
They are worse than that because
they are also drug traffic.

02:05:23.105 --> 02:05:30.859
In days gone by have there been strong
indications or reasonably persuasive indications

02:05:30.860 --> 02:05:34.084
that there was some low-level complicity

02:05:34.085 --> 02:05:38.854
particularly between the Armed
Forces of Colombia and the AUC.

02:05:38.855 --> 02:05:41.644
Yes there have been those indications.

02:05:41.645 --> 02:05:43.939
But I would make the point.

02:05:43.940 --> 02:05:47.239
Those were low level indicators of

02:05:47.240 --> 02:05:51.994
complicity not at the upper
levels of military leadership.

02:05:51.995 --> 02:05:57.469
I was and am personally and
professionally convinced

02:05:57.470 --> 02:06:00.784
that no such alliances.

02:06:00.785 --> 02:06:08.494
Coalitions of convenience have been condoned
or supported in any way by upper leadership.

02:06:08.495 --> 02:06:11.959
And I think that the record will show that

02:06:11.960 --> 02:06:15.784
wherever the senior leadership
has found indications

02:06:15.785 --> 02:06:18.619
of that kind of complicity
they\'ve taken firm and

02:06:18.620 --> 02:06:24.180
decisive action to punish those in
the ranks who were guilty of it.

02:06:27.100 --> 02:06:34.969
But this is really the leasing
and never humans on the moon.

02:06:34.970 --> 02:06:39.859
But through data and go home. Cuando

02:06:39.860 --> 02:06:44.989
It causes in this delivery
law souvenirs and

02:06:44.990 --> 02:06:50.704
33 just those who\'ve been through
Genesis had Lula neock glucosamine

02:06:50.705 --> 02:06:54.049
and so on as a specific SNL and
which of them who said this at

02:06:54.050 --> 02:06:57.529
the I\'m sorry that the facts
don\'t bear out the idea that

02:06:57.530 --> 02:07:01.609
there\'s no links between the military and
the power militaries look no further than

02:07:01.610 --> 02:07:04.504
the reports of the State
Department\'s Human Rights Bureau

02:07:04.505 --> 02:07:07.099
the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

02:07:07.100 --> 02:07:10.144
The Colombian Human Rights
Ombudsman is Office.

02:07:10.145 --> 02:07:12.214
Local government leaders.

02:07:12.215 --> 02:07:14.599
Recognized human rights organizations like

02:07:14.600 --> 02:07:16.999
Amnesty International and
Human Rights Watch you will

02:07:17.000 --> 02:07:21.934
find all of them citing a continuing
pattern in many parts of the country

02:07:21.935 --> 02:07:24.799
collaboration with the
power militaries a lot of

02:07:24.800 --> 02:07:28.099
distance of emission like allowing the
parent militaries to pass through

02:07:28.100 --> 02:07:35.074
roadblocks or not responding to citizens
please for rescue from paramilitary attacks.

02:07:35.075 --> 02:07:40.249
Sometimes it\'s sins of commission sharing
intelligence sharing equipment offering

02:07:40.250 --> 02:07:44.299
logistical support military and
paramilitary personnel being seen

02:07:44.300 --> 02:07:48.769
together in the same place military personnel
coming through an area saying look out.

02:07:48.770 --> 02:07:51.589
The paramilitary is going to
come behind us and get you.

02:07:51.590 --> 02:07:54.199
This all comes from eyewitness accounts on

02:07:54.200 --> 02:07:57.334
the ground of a phenomenon
that we\'ve seen over and over

02:07:57.335 --> 02:08:03.064
of military the military carrying out an
offensive clearing an area of gorillas

02:08:03.065 --> 02:08:05.779
leaving the area and having
the paramilitary has come in

02:08:05.780 --> 02:08:08.689
right behind them and assume
dominion over that area.

02:08:08.690 --> 02:08:15.004
And I can name a southern Iraq in 2001 the
coast of Nairobi Kenya in 2001 Barack Obama.

02:08:15.005 --> 02:08:18.349
The oil-producing city in 2
thousand the poor neighborhoods and

02:08:18.350 --> 02:08:22.489
many h01 or in early 2003
western Christina market

02:08:22.490 --> 02:08:25.699
and I\'ve seen this in action myself many

02:08:25.700 --> 02:08:30.214
times that there\'s still continue to
be these ties and coordinated actions.

02:08:30.215 --> 02:08:33.709
And so yes the government is allowed
to clean up its image that way.

02:08:33.710 --> 02:08:38.119
But they\'re they\'re always stay
distant cousins in the parent.

02:08:38.120 --> 02:08:40.459
Militaries are picking up the slack.

02:08:40.460 --> 02:08:43.009
Only recently President or eBay.

02:08:43.010 --> 02:08:45.168
In a speech denounced

02:08:45.169 --> 02:08:49.129
A coalition of some 80 human
rights NGOs and Columbia.

02:08:49.130 --> 02:08:51.904
Because they were critical
of some of his policies.

02:08:51.905 --> 02:08:55.009
He said You all are the
terrorists take off your masks.

02:08:55.010 --> 02:08:56.959
You\'re really fronting for the guerrillas.

02:08:56.960 --> 02:08:59.614
Historically that has been a
death sentence and Colombia.

02:08:59.615 --> 02:09:02.359
That means it\'s open season for
all the illegal armed actors.

02:09:02.360 --> 02:09:06.000
I either parent militaries
to hunt these people down

02:09:46.470 --> 02:09:48.819
The overthrow of the governments of

02:09:48.820 --> 02:09:52.059
random Guatemala John Kennedy\'s
actions against Cuba and

02:09:52.060 --> 02:09:54.474
Fidel Castro the Vietnam War

02:09:54.475 --> 02:09:59.240
the contra war in Nicaragua and
more recently the invasion of Iraq

02:10:14.650 --> 02:10:18.439
All of these cases involve violations

02:10:18.440 --> 02:10:21.499
not only of international law
but also of US law since

02:10:21.500 --> 02:10:25.399
the Geneva Conventions and the United
Nations Charter have the status and

02:10:25.400 --> 02:10:30.289
ratified treaties and thus fall under
Article six of the US Constitution.

02:10:30.290 --> 02:10:34.609
Does this mean that since we\'ve
had many presence who have taken

02:10:34.610 --> 02:10:40.290
their oath to defend the Constitution of
actually violated the supreme law of the land.

02:11:27.420 --> 02:11:32.600
International law is not
some ethereal concept

02:11:39.580 --> 02:11:46.789
This is not a rare occasion in
history that the militaries make

02:11:46.790 --> 02:11:49.609
these decisions they go to
the president says look we

02:11:49.610 --> 02:11:53.359
decide that you\'re immoral and unethical
and what you\'re doing is wrong.

02:11:53.360 --> 02:11:58.024
And we\'re going to take over that happened
in Chile they happened in Argentina.

02:11:58.025 --> 02:11:59.929
It surprised me a little bit wall.

02:11:59.930 --> 02:12:03.439
Dude who you argue that that\'s what
militaries are to do that they ought to set

02:12:03.440 --> 02:12:09.210
themselves up as a judge and
jury in on these policy issues

02:12:17.140 --> 02:12:23.809
And the law of war that every four

02:12:23.810 --> 02:12:30.469
it on down have

02:12:30.470 --> 02:12:35.989
a duty to illegal orders.

02:12:35.990 --> 02:12:42.960
You get an order from the civilian president
or civilian Secretary of Defense.

02:12:43.630 --> 02:12:51.450
I work crime or to commit aggression
is the absolute duty of that person.

02:12:52.840 --> 02:12:56.494
And any decent court role.

02:12:56.495 --> 02:13:01.019
And that the the

02:13:01.020 --> 02:13:05.289
viewpoint here in this country
with respect to the military

02:13:05.290 --> 02:13:08.798
is always been civilian
control of the military

02:13:08.799 --> 02:13:11.949
is a much less dangerous
course of action for

02:13:11.950 --> 02:13:16.389
a republic to pursue
professional large professional.

02:13:16.390 --> 02:13:22.329
Military forces have not been friendly
to continue the existence of republics.

02:13:22.330 --> 02:13:28.134
And so to a very considerable degree
I reject what you say out of hand.

02:13:28.135 --> 02:13:33.384
And you wouldn\'t be concerned that as a
practical matter the disk could lead

02:13:33.385 --> 02:13:38.529
to improper use of military society.

02:13:38.530 --> 02:13:40.794
It can never be improper.

02:13:40.795 --> 02:13:43.130
Care appears to commit

02:13:50.200 --> 02:13:53.794
Among the counts the four counts that were

02:13:53.795 --> 02:13:58.279
the Nazi leaders were indicted
at Nuremberg one of them.

02:13:58.280 --> 02:14:02.044
The first one was their crimes against peace
planning and waging an aggressive war.

02:14:02.045 --> 02:14:04.849
And it was said there that this
I\'m paraphrasing as the mother of

02:14:04.850 --> 02:14:08.269
all war crimes because the
others follow from this.

02:14:08.270 --> 02:14:13.069
So it would seem as though in a way
this is really the key most critical.

02:14:13.070 --> 02:14:18.949
Legal issue is up to an aggressive war
or is it really defensive Well let me

02:14:18.950 --> 02:14:26.670
not get into a discussion of that but
rather discuss the broader issue

02:14:29.350 --> 02:14:33.139
Absolutely not and if you believe in

02:14:33.140 --> 02:14:38.059
the Constitution at all you
would say absolutely not.

02:14:38.060 --> 02:14:43.159
Do we need a system of jurisprudence or

02:14:43.160 --> 02:14:48.589
framework a jurisprudence that relates to
conflict and the application of force.

02:14:48.590 --> 02:14:49.954
I think we do.

02:14:49.955 --> 02:14:53.839
It is a it is a I\'m billion sound now

02:14:53.840 --> 02:14:57.919
like Jesse Helms and I don\'t mean
to but it is a corruption in

02:14:57.920 --> 02:15:01.024
every way you can think of of

02:15:01.025 --> 02:15:07.039
our constitutional guarantees to two
it\'s not just to the soldiers around

02:15:07.040 --> 02:15:12.004
step in that direction was the
formation of the criminal court.

02:15:12.005 --> 02:15:17.734
That is now an operation. In the Hague.

02:15:17.735 --> 02:15:21.289
Milosevic is being tried before that court.

02:15:21.290 --> 02:15:28.429
President Clinton at the 11th hour
literally the 11th are signed that tree.

02:15:28.430 --> 02:15:32.554
The US\'s sense I\'ll call it
withdrawn that signature.

02:15:32.555 --> 02:15:37.954
We are not a member that we\'re not
supportive of the court you know something.

02:15:37.955 --> 02:15:42.319
These people are now just to
give you a specific example.

02:15:42.320 --> 02:15:49.259
Magistrates in Spain and
Belgium have threatened to

02:15:49.260 --> 02:15:53.469
Arrest Henry Kissinger if
he shows up in either one

02:15:53.470 --> 02:15:57.324
of those countries for what
they claim to be crimes now.

02:15:57.325 --> 02:15:59.064
You don\'t have to like Henry Kissinger.

02:15:59.065 --> 02:16:00.669
I don\'t care about that.

02:16:00.670 --> 02:16:08.199
But you can you it is an outrage that they
can even contemplate this sort of thing.

02:16:08.200 --> 02:16:14.349
And under this arrangement you\'re talking
about they could I think we\'re wrong.

02:16:14.350 --> 02:16:17.064
I think we should be a member of it.

02:16:17.065 --> 02:16:19.659
I\'m aware of the risks.

02:16:19.660 --> 02:16:25.689
I think we could negotiate safeguards
against those risks and let me go further.

02:16:25.690 --> 02:16:28.854
It is an outrage that they
could arrest General Pinochet.

02:16:28.855 --> 02:16:30.549
I don\'t happen to like him.

02:16:30.550 --> 02:16:32.054
I think he was a vicious

02:16:32.055 --> 02:16:37.710
But the fact of the matter is
the Chileans had given him.

02:16:38.350 --> 02:16:42.379
Had had arranged with him that he could.

02:16:42.380 --> 02:16:44.749
They\'d let him live within Chile.

02:16:44.750 --> 02:16:46.669
It\'s their problem to deal with.

02:16:46.670 --> 02:16:49.609
Not some damn magistrate in Spain.

02:16:49.610 --> 02:16:53.104
I don\'t understand why it\'s
outrageous to want to try Kissinger.

02:16:53.105 --> 02:16:55.669
I mean we try the Nazi leaders.

02:16:55.670 --> 02:16:58.234
You\'re comparing with the novel Pinochet.

02:16:58.235 --> 02:17:03.199
You said gets it. Must
have been a Freudian slip.

02:17:03.200 --> 02:17:05.089
Thank sir Pinochet.

02:17:05.090 --> 02:17:08.119
Yeah I mean Nazi Yes

02:17:08.120 --> 02:17:10.279
Wait a minute wait my number one.

02:17:10.280 --> 02:17:13.234
Number one the crime slips
away my number one.

02:17:13.235 --> 02:17:17.029
That the Nazi case. They had.

02:17:17.030 --> 02:17:20.059
They were defeated in war.

02:17:20.060 --> 02:17:23.164
I did I far as I know Chile
was empty and reshape.

02:17:23.165 --> 02:17:26.884
Were never. Nobody ever
declared war on Chile.

02:17:26.885 --> 02:17:30.304
So there was first of all a
substantial legal difference.

02:17:30.305 --> 02:17:35.329
What\'s the logic of being
declared a war criminal if you

02:17:35.330 --> 02:17:37.309
lose the war but not if you win the war

02:17:37.310 --> 02:17:40.714
while winners are never held
accountable for crimes.

02:17:40.715 --> 02:17:43.744
That\'s why Kissinger is still at large.

02:17:43.745 --> 02:17:46.219
And others and others.

02:17:46.220 --> 02:17:49.519
I think the role of the
International Criminal Court

02:17:49.520 --> 02:17:52.189
the prevention of the worst crimes against

02:17:52.190 --> 02:17:57.574
mankind give far more benefits in the
United States than any potential harm.

02:17:57.575 --> 02:18:02.340
We we we need more deterrence to war.

02:18:03.010 --> 02:18:09.664
Military forces a very crude
instrument to advance human interests.

02:18:09.665 --> 02:18:16.684
I find it appalling that an intelligent man
such as yourself would even consider this.

02:18:16.685 --> 02:18:19.099
And I\'m pursuing research from it.

02:18:19.100 --> 02:18:27.100
This is an issue that has
not been well debated.

02:18:32.370 --> 02:18:35.799
But the world needs a system of

02:18:35.800 --> 02:18:42.260
jurisprudence that relates to the
application of military power.

02:18:42.270 --> 02:18:50.270
To hear you say that after having said
that yourself that you would could imagine

02:18:50.860 --> 02:18:55.719
herself I think he said in an article
with justice or saddam Madonna

02:18:55.720 --> 02:19:00.849
Absolutely I served in the US
Army Air Corps in three years.

02:19:00.850 --> 02:19:05.679
In World War Two I was out on
temporary duty with general amaze

02:19:05.680 --> 02:19:12.099
command in the Pacific and the
Maryanus and March in 1945.

02:19:12.100 --> 02:19:14.369
And I was sitting next to him the night

02:19:14.370 --> 02:19:17.509
When he interrogated the lead crews on

02:19:17.510 --> 02:19:22.234
the first B29 fire bombing
mission on that mission.

02:19:22.235 --> 02:19:23.869
And that single night.

02:19:23.870 --> 02:19:30.469
We burned your dad. 83
thousand Japanese civilians.

02:19:30.470 --> 02:19:34.999
And we went on to carry out
66 more firebombing missions.

02:19:35.000 --> 02:19:38.119
We didn\'t burn it at 80
thousand each time but all in

02:19:38.120 --> 02:19:41.449
all I think if I recall
correctly we burned to death

02:19:41.450 --> 02:19:44.719
about 900 thousand and we
enjoyed about many too and we

02:19:44.720 --> 02:19:48.829
displaced 30 or 40% of the whole population

02:19:48.830 --> 02:19:56.629
and Japan LeMay said because of
what we\'ve done and the firebombing

02:19:56.630 --> 02:20:03.679
if we lost the war would have
been treated as war criminals.

02:20:03.680 --> 02:20:09.510
And I think he was right we
would have been to this day.

02:20:09.760 --> 02:20:13.219
The American people have
been focused on this.

02:20:13.220 --> 02:20:15.604
But we the human race should know that.

02:20:15.605 --> 02:20:18.364
And we should examine it retrospectively.

02:20:18.365 --> 02:20:21.214
Is that when we want to
go through in the future

02:20:21.215 --> 02:20:26.809
the human race killed a 160
million human beings by

02:20:26.810 --> 02:20:30.439
conflict within nations
and across borders in

02:20:30.440 --> 02:20:36.154
the 20th century is that what we
want for the 21st I don\'t Well good.

02:20:36.155 --> 02:20:38.820
Better late than ever.

02:20:45.220 --> 02:20:48.169
It is not clear.

02:20:48.170 --> 02:20:50.239
What is legal and war and
what isn\'t legal and

02:20:50.240 --> 02:20:52.639
more and let me give you
another illustration.

02:20:52.640 --> 02:20:55.714
During the Vietnam War.

02:20:55.715 --> 02:20:59.989
A toxic chemical known as
Agent Orange was used.

02:20:59.990 --> 02:21:02.089
And it is alleged that

02:21:02.090 --> 02:21:07.804
the toxicity led to the death of
Vietnam a\'s and do some Americans.

02:21:07.805 --> 02:21:10.414
I was secretary when Agent Orange was used.

02:21:10.415 --> 02:21:13.519
I don\'t have any recollection
of ever authorizing it

02:21:13.520 --> 02:21:17.704
but I was secretary and and
presumably I was responsible.

02:21:17.705 --> 02:21:22.009
I I never know world would have authorized

02:21:22.010 --> 02:21:26.149
the use of an agent that
was stated to be illegal.

02:21:26.150 --> 02:21:29.929
I never saw a piece of paper that stated.
This is legal.

02:21:29.930 --> 02:21:35.149
This is illegal that the system
of jurisprudence relating to

02:21:35.150 --> 02:21:40.939
conduct and war exists in principle
proportionality just war and so on.

02:21:40.940 --> 02:21:43.984
But it hasn\'t been reduced to the point

02:21:43.985 --> 02:21:49.699
where you can really say You violated
the law you used Agent Orange and you

02:21:49.700 --> 02:21:54.199
know very well that that\'s not authorized.
Can understand

02:21:54.200 --> 02:21:59.854
that the obscurity about Agent Orange but
let me give you two other examples. Sure

02:21:59.855 --> 02:22:02.359
one is the use of napalm.

02:22:02.360 --> 02:22:05.269
And the other is the degree to
which there was targeting of

02:22:05.270 --> 02:22:08.659
civilians and free fire zone I think

02:22:08.660 --> 02:22:12.679
Dean England targeting civilians
I I don\'t think there were

02:22:12.680 --> 02:22:17.419
ever any intent to target civilians.

02:22:17.420 --> 02:22:21.094
Were you ever in a situation where
you drop where you bombed villages.

02:22:21.095 --> 02:22:23.940
Yes tell me about that.

02:22:24.040 --> 02:22:29.794
There were free so-called free
fire zones established in Vietnam.

02:22:29.795 --> 02:22:32.089
And the Saigon government

02:22:32.090 --> 02:22:35.299
Moved everybody out of their resettled

02:22:35.300 --> 02:22:39.289
them somewhere else and
declared this a free fire zone.

02:22:39.290 --> 02:22:45.439
And so often we bombed these villages
they were supposed to be empty.

02:22:45.440 --> 02:22:50.179
But it was clear to me that recent
farming being done and so forth.

02:22:50.180 --> 02:22:53.854
So it was that the Saigon government was

02:22:53.855 --> 02:22:58.950
ineffective at rounding these people up and
getting him out of these free fire zones.

02:23:23.800 --> 02:23:29.539
You know I never bombed a
village that I thought was

02:23:29.540 --> 02:23:35.389
inhabited by people that I bombed some empty
villages of probably had some people around.

02:23:35.390 --> 02:23:40.474
What were your what were your feelings
about out of time well that\'s troubling.

02:23:40.475 --> 02:23:43.069
What do you mean you\'re your
own personal motions without

02:23:43.070 --> 02:23:47.340
troubling to you particularly
Did you lose sleep over it no.

02:23:47.500 --> 02:23:50.254
I\'m not a poet wall.

02:23:50.255 --> 02:23:52.039
I\'m a fighter pilot.

02:23:52.040 --> 02:23:56.554
And so killing is part of the job

02:23:56.555 --> 02:24:03.739
And I don\'t relish it but
that\'s what I signed up to do.

02:24:03.740 --> 02:24:07.174
We have a professional military force.

02:24:07.175 --> 02:24:09.139
Now very definition for

02:24:09.140 --> 02:24:16.080
a professional military forces one
that kills and destroys efficiently.

02:24:17.560 --> 02:24:21.319
So I mean I didn\'t lose
sleep over the matter.

02:24:21.320 --> 02:24:24.844
And the free fire zones were presumably

02:24:24.845 --> 02:24:30.049
zones that did not put civilians
at risk unnecessarily I

02:24:30.050 --> 02:24:33.409
think however if one went back
and examine that in detail

02:24:33.410 --> 02:24:38.809
today one would find that civilians
were killed because of free fire zones

02:24:38.810 --> 02:24:43.560
And that that perhaps could have been
anticipated and perhaps should have been.

02:24:46.060 --> 02:24:48.840
Disallowed

02:24:59.140 --> 02:25:01.740
prohibit

02:25:05.020 --> 02:25:07.609
the systematic United States

02:25:07.610 --> 02:25:10.429
bombing them show on the
South Vietnamese hamlets

02:25:10.430 --> 02:25:12.679
This Macnamara himself testified before

02:25:12.680 --> 02:25:16.714
Congress was consciously aimed
at making them uninhabitable.

02:25:16.715 --> 02:25:21.439
Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese
civilians were killed during the war.

02:25:21.440 --> 02:25:23.790
And now the napalm.

02:25:25.270 --> 02:25:32.689
Many people will have seen the
pictures of children burning

02:25:32.690 --> 02:25:39.649
to death because of attack by napalm
disgraceful absolutely disgraceful.

02:25:39.650 --> 02:25:45.829
How do you prevent it should
there be an absolute rule

02:25:45.830 --> 02:25:53.520
that if it\'s likely that
civilians how many civilians

02:25:53.590 --> 02:25:59.119
Will be affected by by fire by attack.

02:25:59.120 --> 02:26:01.984
It will not be allowed once a b in

02:26:01.985 --> 02:26:06.409
a 100 civilians in relation to
what the civilians are doing.

02:26:06.410 --> 02:26:12.439
We\'ve seen enemies use
civilians as human shields.

02:26:12.440 --> 02:26:17.134
It\'s alleged that Saddam
Hussein did that at times.

02:26:17.135 --> 02:26:19.009
These are all adult.

02:26:19.010 --> 02:26:20.659
I don\'t want to give the answers.

02:26:20.660 --> 02:26:22.759
But I want to pose a problem.

02:26:22.760 --> 02:26:27.229
And I want to say that I think
the world including the US

02:26:27.230 --> 02:26:34.864
needs far more attention to it and we
need to erect a system of jurisprudence

02:26:34.865 --> 02:26:38.119
That will allow us to
deal with a problem and

02:26:38.120 --> 02:26:43.039
more humane ways than in the past
protest to be clear about it was

02:26:43.040 --> 02:26:45.829
my understanding that napalm

02:26:45.830 --> 02:26:52.504
was felt within a category inhumane
weapons under Geneva Conventions.

02:26:52.505 --> 02:26:54.739
I think the legal I don\'t want to

02:26:54.740 --> 02:26:59.160
discuss it because I really do
frankly I\'m sure enough qualified

02:27:01.360 --> 02:27:09.360
illegal under the Hague Convention of 1900

02:27:09.500 --> 02:27:17.310
the neighbor conventions
and went back to Mary

02:27:22.690 --> 02:27:30.690
And have no idea who
continually have these war.

02:27:34.660 --> 02:27:41.674
When by all rational reasoning
they should have been abandoned.

02:27:41.675 --> 02:27:47.059
Instead they\'re made Mark\'s true. Why

02:27:47.060 --> 02:27:55.060
see it\'s because there are cons
extent will always be conflicts.

02:27:55.370 --> 02:27:59.778
Some people think there\'s something very
important involved in those complex

02:27:59.779 --> 02:28:04.864
and they\'re not going to give up and surrender
to whatever evil they see around them.

02:28:04.865 --> 02:28:07.204
They\'ve got to do something.

02:28:07.205 --> 02:28:12.019
And they believe that violence is the
most powerful thing they can do.

02:28:12.020 --> 02:28:14.209
Whether it is or not it\'s irrelevant.

02:28:14.210 --> 02:28:19.650
They believe it is there\'s almost
a religious belief in the file

02:28:31.660 --> 02:28:37.849
We judge on the basis of our
understanding of the world.

02:28:37.850 --> 02:28:42.844
Our understanding of the world is
mediated through particular ideology

02:28:42.845 --> 02:28:48.499
that particular ideology is one of
triumphalism and we can do no wrong.

02:28:48.500 --> 02:28:51.349
I don\'t use the term patriotism.

02:28:51.350 --> 02:28:57.844
For our history textbooks I use the term
nationalism and I think there\'s a distinction.

02:28:57.845 --> 02:29:03.124
Patriotism might mean it\'s my
country it\'s right or wrong.

02:29:03.125 --> 02:29:04.504
I\'m going to try to make it right.

02:29:04.505 --> 02:29:07.969
But nationalism is basically saying
we\'re not asked were on top.

02:29:07.970 --> 02:29:12.434
If you look at the 20th century

02:29:12.435 --> 02:29:19.254
It\'s taken for granted that there
is a superior civilization.

02:29:19.255 --> 02:29:24.939
And that\'s superior civilization
is able to pretty much do

02:29:24.940 --> 02:29:31.284
with inferior civilization or
inferior culture as it wants to do.

02:29:31.285 --> 02:29:33.879
You see Mossadegh there you see him playing

02:29:33.880 --> 02:29:37.134
around or people playing
around with the Soviets.

02:29:37.135 --> 02:29:39.789
And you decide you\'re going
to get rid of them because

02:29:39.790 --> 02:29:42.054
Iran is terribly important oil et cetera.

02:29:42.055 --> 02:29:48.099
So for example King
Leopold and Belgian took

02:29:48.100 --> 02:29:55.139
3.5 million people and at least
and they worked in the mines

02:29:55.140 --> 02:30:00.949
In the Congo and they died they
were tortured and they die.

02:30:00.950 --> 02:30:06.979
The United States emerged
from the 19th century.

02:30:06.980 --> 02:30:12.139
Having virtually destroyed the
Indians the American Indians.

02:30:12.140 --> 02:30:17.239
These were seen certainly in
the case of the United States

02:30:17.240 --> 02:30:22.669
as a morally appropriate thing to do.

02:30:22.670 --> 02:30:28.744
That is to say it was the
dominant view that this power and

02:30:28.745 --> 02:30:32.284
a superior civilization
went together they had

02:30:32.285 --> 02:30:34.609
military superiority so
they believed that they had

02:30:34.610 --> 02:30:37.414
cultural and religious
superiority as well. Now

02:30:37.415 --> 02:30:40.879
of course when it got to going abroad there

02:30:40.880 --> 02:30:44.734
were people who fought that
point of view like Mark Twain

02:30:44.735 --> 02:30:48.169
but the dominant point of view
in the United States was that we

02:30:48.170 --> 02:30:53.089
were spreading a superior civilization.

02:30:53.090 --> 02:30:57.499
That\'s superior civilization has costs.

02:30:57.500 --> 02:31:04.294
And those costs result in the death
of millions of people if necessary.

02:31:04.295 --> 02:31:06.394
It does not matter.

02:31:06.395 --> 02:31:12.214
If it\'s the Vietnamese who were the enemy
does not matter if Saddam Hussein.

02:31:12.215 --> 02:31:17.119
It doesn\'t matter if Stalin\'s the enemy
the United States through this period of

02:31:17.120 --> 02:31:24.180
time except for a very short
period saw itself as top dog.

02:31:24.520 --> 02:31:29.059
And being top dog requires several things.

02:31:29.060 --> 02:31:33.529
The first is that you
remain top dog that there\'s

02:31:33.530 --> 02:31:39.214
a pyramidical structure and it has to
stay in that framework of being the top.

02:31:39.215 --> 02:31:43.069
Second that is that there are all sorts of

02:31:43.070 --> 02:31:48.274
threats on the part of others to
remove you from being top dog

02:31:48.275 --> 02:31:52.144
And third is that you\'ve sold
yourself a bill of goods.

02:31:52.145 --> 02:31:55.279
If you were a stay in
which you\'re saying to

02:31:55.280 --> 02:32:00.529
yourself that this is for
moral and decent purposes.

02:32:00.530 --> 02:32:06.559
Now some people are cold
enough and have only

02:32:06.560 --> 02:32:12.424
as their base the real politic who
don\'t accept the notion of moralism.

02:32:12.425 --> 02:32:15.874
When you are the United
States are a major power.

02:32:15.875 --> 02:32:20.089
There you can\'t simply sit there
and say Well who the hell are we

02:32:20.090 --> 02:32:24.244
going to go in and decide
something for some other country.

02:32:24.245 --> 02:32:30.679
Now some people don\'t accept the notion of
moralism but others do. And I think that

02:32:30.680 --> 02:32:37.084
The Cold War the United States
was in a just and defensive war.

02:32:37.085 --> 02:32:41.494
And that\'s the largest moral fact.

02:32:41.495 --> 02:32:46.249
It\'s not the only moral fact but
it\'s it\'s the underlying one.

02:32:46.250 --> 02:32:52.279
There was always this ideological haze
above it all which was we\'re doing this.

02:32:52.280 --> 02:32:55.894
We\'re fighting this war or any war for

02:32:55.895 --> 02:33:01.530
moral purposes because we
have a superior civilization.

02:33:09.220 --> 02:33:13.114
The argument as you very well know

02:33:13.115 --> 02:33:16.144
is that there\'s a personal morality

02:33:16.145 --> 02:33:20.089
which which you\'re not supposed
to kill and so forth and so on.

02:33:20.090 --> 02:33:25.909
But that in order to have
a state the sovereign

02:33:25.910 --> 02:33:32.329
is able to kill and the agent for
the sovereign is able to kill.

02:33:32.330 --> 02:33:38.734
And this by the way is a
standard in Western thought.

02:33:38.735 --> 02:33:42.499
One can look at as you well
know you can go back to

02:33:42.500 --> 02:33:46.669
the Republic and you see
that leadership can

02:33:46.670 --> 02:33:50.388
tell lies to the people that the leadership

02:33:50.389 --> 02:33:55.309
indeed has to be developed in such
a point that they are able to

02:33:55.310 --> 02:34:00.244
militarism to control internally
what goes on in externally.

02:34:00.245 --> 02:34:07.069
So this is part of very much Western
thought That\'s tone in the school.

02:34:07.070 --> 02:34:10.849
Indeed the educated classes in
this sense the people who go

02:34:10.850 --> 02:34:14.569
into the bureaucracy and go
into the CIA et cetera use

02:34:14.570 --> 02:34:18.259
that as a basis for justification.

02:34:18.260 --> 02:34:23.059
So that when some people come
along and say look this is just

02:34:23.060 --> 02:34:29.089
killing these other people
say this not just killing.

02:34:29.090 --> 02:34:31.980
This is the way you run a state.

02:34:36.940 --> 02:34:39.889
This is what you have to do.

02:34:39.890 --> 02:34:43.939
Don\'t come around here with
these childish notions.

02:34:43.940 --> 02:34:50.149
And indeed what happened over the course
of time in the United States was in

02:34:50.150 --> 02:34:56.914
the forties and the fifties you had great
theologians supporting that point of view.

02:34:56.915 --> 02:34:59.779
So for example rankled
neighbor took the point of

02:34:59.780 --> 02:35:03.229
view that there was a personal morality as

02:35:03.230 --> 02:35:10.519
against a public morality the public morality
unfortunately had to include killing.

02:35:10.520 --> 02:35:13.320
That\'s the way it was

02:35:27.970 --> 02:35:32.869
Boys are people are people who want
to worry about worlds problems.

02:35:32.870 --> 02:35:35.509
They are really great in
rationalizing fertility.

02:35:35.510 --> 02:35:40.009
You see amino and note counterculture
restaurants and the city around tables.

02:35:40.010 --> 02:35:42.109
This is brilliant diagnosis of

02:35:42.110 --> 02:35:47.899
the overwhelming irresistible dominant
persistent eternal concentration to

02:35:47.900 --> 02:35:51.889
brutal power in the world and
how it impacts all kinds of

02:35:51.890 --> 02:35:57.094
constituencies all the damage and stuff
in desert desert and finish the meal.

02:35:57.095 --> 02:35:58.699
The desert is coming

02:35:58.700 --> 02:36:05.914
Still haven\'t focused on the counter attack
the remedies the resistance at that point.

02:36:05.915 --> 02:36:08.179
Certain questions come to mind.

02:36:08.180 --> 02:36:12.709
So how can we actually make a difference
when we see all these problems around us.

02:36:12.710 --> 02:36:18.139
How does change happen man has
the habit of hitting his head

02:36:18.140 --> 02:36:24.930
against the wall until the wall breaks.

02:36:26.110 --> 02:36:32.580
And then when the wall breaks then
there\'s a change in public policy.

02:36:34.960 --> 02:36:38.760
But we don\'t have to go that route

02:36:41.440 --> 02:36:44.029
If we want to look at what proceeds

02:36:44.030 --> 02:36:47.914
mass structural change we\'re
really looking at education

02:36:47.915 --> 02:36:50.209
cultural preparation which
is also about creating

02:36:50.210 --> 02:36:54.690
a culture of resistance a
culture of critical thinking.

02:36:55.000 --> 02:36:59.824
Social change strategy starts with
looking at questions of power.

02:36:59.825 --> 02:37:04.789
Where does the power of your
opponent come from what does

02:37:04.790 --> 02:37:10.369
the system that we live in rest
upon what are its bases of support.

02:37:10.370 --> 02:37:15.514
For instance if we look at say
our government our corporations

02:37:15.515 --> 02:37:19.789
And the war machine they don\'t they
didn\'t just come out of nowhere and

02:37:19.790 --> 02:37:27.559
your rulers your president your educators
are kings are not born with all that power.

02:37:27.560 --> 02:37:30.409
It\'s not there.

02:37:30.410 --> 02:37:34.069
It comes from outside of themselves.

02:37:34.070 --> 02:37:35.809
They\'re supported by us.

02:37:35.810 --> 02:37:37.579
They\'re supported by tax dollars.

02:37:37.580 --> 02:37:40.804
It comes from the society.

02:37:40.805 --> 02:37:43.399
It therefore has shorter.

02:37:43.400 --> 02:37:50.059
And you can identify those short
and one such as legitimacy and

02:37:50.060 --> 02:37:53.659
moral authority really social
change is about creating

02:37:53.660 --> 02:37:57.604
a crisis of legitimacy or
the divine right of kings

02:37:57.605 --> 02:38:00.949
or this so and so was elected.

02:38:00.950 --> 02:38:03.859
So for looking at strategy
we need to look at those and

02:38:03.860 --> 02:38:06.859
then consider how we might
undermine their support.

02:38:06.860 --> 02:38:09.769
One of the things that I think
history teaches us very abundantly

02:38:09.770 --> 02:38:13.729
is its social movements that
actually make a difference.

02:38:13.730 --> 02:38:16.984
Citizens getting together brought
about the end of slavery.

02:38:16.985 --> 02:38:23.779
The emancipation of women the end of child
labor and other seven-day workweek.

02:38:23.780 --> 02:38:28.890
There\'s the civil rights
movement toward Vietnam War.

02:38:34.030 --> 02:38:37.309
And he said Yeah I was shocked.

02:38:37.310 --> 02:38:40.024
I didn\'t think that my chimps

02:38:40.025 --> 02:38:43.819
Ever behave in such a brutal
way and then I realized

02:38:43.820 --> 02:38:48.154
well it kinda makes sense because
they are so close to us.

02:38:48.155 --> 02:38:52.159
And it does really seem that if
you go back 5 million years or

02:38:52.160 --> 02:38:56.914
so you find a common ancestor
that presumably had these

02:38:56.915 --> 02:38:59.254
aggressive instincts on the one hand

02:38:59.255 --> 02:39:03.679
and loving and compassionate
traits on the other yeah.

02:39:03.680 --> 02:39:10.414
And so if you imagine that we\'ve inherited
both of these from our ancient primate past.

02:39:10.415 --> 02:39:15.709
Then does that mean that we\'re inevitably
always going to be aggressive or do you think

02:39:15.710 --> 02:39:22.384
that we have enough ability if we will use it
to decide Okay I hate this aggressive site.

02:39:22.385 --> 02:39:27.210
I\'m going to work really hard to develop
the compassionate and loving side

02:39:59.410 --> 02:40:01.860
Yes