WEBVTT

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[background noise]

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[music]

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-This is the beginning
of the Fifth Suite.

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It’s my favorite suite.

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It also happens to be the most
spiritual and the saddest.

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I thought it was appropriate to ask

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Tamasaburo Bando to
be the choreographer

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for this suite because he happens
to be my favorite Kabuki actor.

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[music]

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Kabuki is a traditional
form of Japanese theater.

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It’s several hundred years old,
and I love it.

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It is highly stylized.
There’s lots of color and drama,

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and the costumes are
absolutely gorgeous.

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Like in Greek theatre,
the men play women’s roles.

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Tamasaburo’s considered
by many people to be

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one of the greatest
Kabuki actors of all time.

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When I first saw him perform,
I was totally mesmerized.

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He uses every gesture and
nuance with exquisite command.

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These gestures-- sometimes
he uses props also,

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he uses them to express ideas,
and characters, and feelings,

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very much the same way
Bach might use melodic

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and rhythmic motifs to
paint a musical picture.

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[music]

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[background noise]

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Here we are on the
stage of the Kabuki-za.

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Do you remember when I first met you,
I asked you,

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\"Can we do something together?\"

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And you were very nice about saying,
\"Sure, let’s try.\"

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If it means trying to do new works,
well,

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I guess you’re involved in
doing a lot of new things,

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including what you’re
doing in the suite.

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You’re wearing [crosstalk]

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-Before we go on the Suite,

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Yo-Yo,

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you’ve told me, in the past,

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that you always try
to do the right thing,

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but I’m more selfish than that.

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I only do what I like.

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-Oh, I see,
but you have such good instincts,

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you end up doing the
right thing anyway.

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[laughter]

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-I see Yo-Yo as the
central axis around which

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Bach’s Unaccompanied
Cello Suite develops.

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As Yo-Yo plays,
a feeling develops through his cello.

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Something happens.
Someone approaches.

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In Yo-Yo’s mind,
in this heart, something happens.

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A spirit approaches,

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you enter a world beyond
the sound of the cello.

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The spirit, the dancer is drawn
into it or drawn forth by it.

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That’s my interpretation.

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Another thing is,
the listeners enter into Yo-Yo’s

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world and when the piece is finished,
they leave it.

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Quite often,
in Japanese drama, a spirit appears

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on stage, speaks, and at dawn,
returns to the other world.

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There are many plays like that.

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-I feel my duty with the
Fifth Suite is actually

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to make sure that whenever I think

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is in that work,
either technically speaking,

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compositionally speaking or in
terms of ideas, of feelings,

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whatever I know is well
transferred to Tamasaburo

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so he knows exactly what I
know as much as possible.

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Then I trust him to take it all and
to take it to a different place,

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and to give it back to me,
and then I’ll think about it,

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and then I’ll give it back to him.

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It’s that’s kind of
process that will hopefully

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result in something
that’s worthwhile.

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Hi, Tamasaburo.

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This is your friendly cellist
sending you a little message.

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I’m going to talk to you,
today, about the fugue.

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This is maybe one of the
most abstract movements,

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but I’m going to concentrate
on phrase lengths.

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I’m going to count down bars and
we’ll talk about it afterwards, okay?

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Here we go. [music]

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One, two, three,

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four, five, six, seven, and entry.

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Entrance of theme,

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three, four, five, six, seven.

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Only seven, and which-- three, four,

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five, entrance of theme.

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What we have,
so far, are three phases.

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Eight measures for the first
entrance of the voices, fugue voices,

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seven measures of the second,
a five measure bridge,

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and then another entrance.
Basically, irregular phrase lengths.

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This is all me,
and then starting here--

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-Then me, from far away.

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-Okay, I’m starting this.

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-I enter, I do this.

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I light a candle.

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[music]

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Now the candles are lit.

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-It’s always

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[music].

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You think this
[gesturing] gives light?

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-This nuance gives light.

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Another difficult
thing about this work

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is the way the music is constructed.

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A theme appears,
and then it dissolves,

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but as it dissolves,
yet another theme appears.

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As you go through movements one,
two, three, four, five, you

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hear themes from certain movements
appearing in other movements.

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It’s difficult to cut into sections.

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If I dance according to the melody,
the rhythm changes.

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If I dance according to the rhythm,
the melody changes,

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and the nuance changes.

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Just when I think I’ve captured
the rhythm, it dissolves.

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In a way,
it’s like Japanese or Asian music.

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Rather than approaching it
as several complete segments,

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it’s better to start from the
first note and learn it bit by bit,

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in sequence. That’s what I try to do.
I move with my body.

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[humming]

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This is how I approach the piece.

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I don’t just memorize the score,
I move with it.

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I approach it in sequence,
like a train,

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like beads in a rosary,
a thread unreeling.

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[music]

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I still can’t grasp
the second movement.

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This is what I was doing.
Here’s the chandelier.

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I start like this.
Here, I do something.

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I felt the dance was
hitting against an obstacle,

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so I would collide with it.

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This way [humming],

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if I go like this--

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If I go like this, it may work.

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-More dimensional,
right, and once more, circular.

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Yes.

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-When I started,
like this [dancing].

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If I do it this way, I feel pushed,
so the solution is a circle.

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-When you take something like music,

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which is not very much a measurable,
quantifiable thing, you can say,

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\"Well, it’s classical music,
this is western music.

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Classical music is dead,
White European music.\"

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Well, you could say maybe that’s
true, but on the other hand,

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I think what it tries to
express are values and ideas

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that anybody can understand
if you go for it.

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I think this is something--

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if what I’m trying to do works,
then I think it proves a point.

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That what we’re dealing in the arts
is not just music, or painting,

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or literature, but actually, it
deals with humanity, with thoughts,

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with feelings that are, in fact,

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a codification of the very
best of someone’s mind.

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The melody part of this movement
is very human between suffering,

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and hope, and hesitation,
but within the rhythm part of it.

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The one, two, [sings]

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before [sings]

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if you keep to a rhythm-

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-When it changes,
Yo-Yo, do you still follow a rhythm?

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Not bar by bar.

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-Yes, right.
I think I don’t make one, two.

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[music]

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Two, but I go, one [sings],

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one [sings], down.

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-That’s the difficult part.

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-For me, tempo, or the pulse,

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is the inevitable, is fate.

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Mm, two

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[sings], two [sings].

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-Now I see why it was so difficult.

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When I tried to express emotion,

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the tempo would come
up from behind me.

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Therefore,
I needed an explanation which would

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help me rise above
this tempo problem.

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Now I have it.

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If I keep the tempo
with my lower body,

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then I can still express
emotion with my upper body.

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-Yes, absolutely. Yes.

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-That’s where the difficulty was.

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I’d go one way, and then, what?

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That’s why I needed
a tempo to follow.

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-I’ve been watching Tamasaburo
struggle to understand this work.

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It’s a hard piece,
both technically and structurally,

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and it’s emotionally complex,

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involving many layers of
feelings of loss and mourning,

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and reconciliation.

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In my family, this music has always
been a source of great comfort.

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My parents grew up during a time that
was torn apart by war and strife,

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and my father, during World War II,
would play the music of Bach,

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always, as a form of solace.

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-My mother worked
running a restaurant.

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As a result,
my father didn’t have much to do,

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so until I had to start
school at age five,

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we were always together,
from morning to night.

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He let me dance.

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If I wanted to wear something
beautiful, he’d say, \"Bring it,\"

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and have someone dress me.

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If I wanted to put make-up on,
he’d have someone make me up.

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He let me do everything
I wanted to do.

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When I said, \"I want to go on stage,
so I’ll need to be adopted,\"

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he said, \"I see,\" and so, I was.

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-Tell me,
what does it mean to be adopted?

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I was never quite clear
if you’re adopted,

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did you want to be adopted?

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-In the Kabuki system, you have to be
adopted in order to get a stage name.

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Back then, I didn’t actually
need to change families.

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-Your parents, were they happy
about giving you up for adoption?

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Or were they sad about it?

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-My mother was
probably a little sad,

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and my father also
wanted to keep me with

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him because he loved me so very much,
almost to excess.

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When he said,
\"Go ahead and be adopted,\"

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as a child,
I had no idea what that meant,

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but I’d have done anything to become

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an actor and appear in
the Kabuki-za Theatre.

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[music]

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[laughter]

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[background conversations]

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-Oh, look at this guy.

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[laughs]

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[applause]

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Oh, beautiful.

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[music] [applause]

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-My friendship, my affection
for Yo-Yo is a completely

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different matter from the
performance I’m creating.

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I’m a friend of Yo-Yo,

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but on stage,
I take the form of a woman,

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so there’s bound to be
some sense of lovers.

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However,
in the world that I’m creating,

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I don’t think Bach’s Suite
requires a love story.

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How shall I say it?

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Watching this,
you might get a feeling of lovers,

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but it’s really something
dryer than that.

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It’s human love in a larger sense,
or the feeling you have

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when a bird sits beside you
or an animal sits beside you,

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or when you see flowers blooming.

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It’s the relationship between a man
and a woman in an abstract sense.

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-You play your Onnagata,
which means you play women’s roles.

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Is that something that’s
decided early on or--?

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-When I was a child,
I played both roles,

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but I liked beautiful
kimonos and Onnagata better.

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-Even as a boy, dress-up,
clothing, and stuff like that,

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is that something--?

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My children do this all the time,
so it’s--

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-It was like that, yes.

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-Whenever I’ve seen you perform,

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it almost seems as if you’re
playing a woman’s role,

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and by abstracting the
essence of a woman that

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people actually look to
you almost as a role model.

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-Yes, I think that happens.

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Luckily, I’ve had the chance
to play many different types

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of women so I’ve become
free from those types.

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Therefore, when you asked
if we could work together,

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I knew I could rise
above these types.

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Although I appear in female form,

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I felt no difficulty
in becoming the sort

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of woman that matches
the sound of your cello.

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Of course,
I assume the form of a woman,

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but I want people to think,
\"A man could be doing this.\"

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Taking a more neutral approach,

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I tried to make myself
into someone who would

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simply move to the sound
of the cello strings.

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-You once said that
part of performing is--

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I think this is in
relation to a Kabuki play,

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where a seduction takes place.

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You said that at the
moment of seduction,

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you find your highest moment, that
you find your moment of catharsis.

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-Oh, catharsis.

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-You remember saying that?

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-Yes.

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-First of all,
do you remember saying that?

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Or maybe it was a misquote.

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-Yes, especially after-- It happens
in a flash after a strong emotion.

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-A certain kind of emotion,
boom, then you feel something.

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It’s there.

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-Yes.

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-Maybe that has an element
of hope to it also.

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-You told me there is
hope in this suite.

00:21:05.236 --> 00:21:09.169
My problem is where to put the hope.

00:21:09.910 --> 00:21:14.868
Where? Where is the hope?
It’s really difficult.

00:21:15.306 --> 00:21:16.986
-What do you think now?

00:21:17.388 --> 00:21:22.514
-It’s difficult to talk
concretely about hope,

00:21:23.826 --> 00:21:29.561
but I think I’ve found a way to find
hope in small ways, second by second.

00:21:32.553 --> 00:21:38.809
As I told you once before, Yo-Yo,
I’m not a person with much hope.

00:21:38.976 --> 00:21:41.696
I’m a tragic human being.

00:21:42.246 --> 00:21:46.500
Someone who finds it hard
to think optimistically,

00:21:47.161 --> 00:21:54.161
but by accepting that in myself,
I’ve also found a way to accept hope.

00:22:03.511 --> 00:22:10.511
[music]

00:22:12.207 --> 00:22:13.540
-And reaches up,

00:22:17.239 --> 00:22:22.269
but you’re always falling down.

00:22:23.520 --> 00:22:26.473
I was thinking that this movement,
which is very short,

00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.070
is not unlike a Haiku,

00:22:31.260 --> 00:22:35.520
the distilled essence of the suite.

00:22:36.161 --> 00:22:39.750
It’s the heart of the suite,
the emotional center.

00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:47.079
Let’s just listen for the
lines going downwards.

00:22:47.246 --> 00:22:54.246
[music]

00:22:54.804 --> 00:22:56.590
You’re reaching up,

00:23:00.344 --> 00:23:06.460
but it always comes down,
and I just ran out of tape.

00:23:08.976 --> 00:23:11.723
-For example, we start like this.

00:23:12.270 --> 00:23:15.657
As if I, myself,
have become this piece of cloth.

00:23:16.011 --> 00:23:18.617
Looking at the stage, you’ll see

00:23:18.784 --> 00:23:21.573
something swelling
up from the darkness.

00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:27.213
Softly, sweepingly, it begins.

00:23:30.051 --> 00:23:32.651
-It’s fantastic. Let’s try this.

00:23:32.818 --> 00:23:34.458
-Yes.

00:23:35.886 --> 00:23:42.886
[music]

00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:24.991
-It’s more uneven sounds,
also, I think.

00:24:25.703 --> 00:24:27.243
[background conversation]

00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:33.752
[music]

00:24:35.062 --> 00:24:37.415
So far,
I like the first take better.

00:24:37.582 --> 00:24:38.937
What do you think?

00:24:39.802 --> 00:24:41.333
-[nods]

00:24:42.098 --> 00:24:43.978
-All right.
Remember, this is the one,

00:24:44.145 --> 00:24:49.540
when I played and I really
looked at you, right?

00:24:50.310 --> 00:24:52.839
Eye contact, tremendous eye contact.

00:24:57.611 --> 00:25:04.611
[music]

00:25:24.115 --> 00:25:27.840
The next one,
I was trying to look at you,

00:25:28.080 --> 00:25:30.768
but you were looking up into the sky,
right?

00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:34.363
But that’s also interesting
because you were saying, earlier,

00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:37.003
whenever you perform, you like
to think that there’s somebody

00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:41.310
there that you’re performing for,
but then if there’s nobody there,

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:45.330
sometimes you feel like
you’re playing for heaven.

00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:49.273
I knew that’s what you were thinking,
but I was trying to think, also,

00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:52.590
something less personal.

00:25:55.530 --> 00:25:58.813
In that sense, less Dionysian,
and what you were talking about,

00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:01.437
I was thinking of
something less personal.

00:26:01.604 --> 00:26:03.854
I don’t know how you would say that.

00:26:05.696 --> 00:26:08.079
-No need to think so much.
[chuckles]

00:26:08.246 --> 00:26:09.602
-I can’t translate that
term you’re saying.

00:26:09.769 --> 00:26:10.833
-Okay, it’s too American? [laughter]

00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.832
-Oh, no.
What he says is don’t think too much.

00:26:15.163 --> 00:26:18.118
-Thinking too much is not good.

00:26:18.285 --> 00:26:20.345
-If you think too much,
it doesn’t really [crosstalk].

00:26:20.512 --> 00:26:22.971
-Don’t worry,
I don’t know how to think too much.

00:26:23.138 --> 00:26:26.245
[laughter] It’s not a big problem.

00:26:26.412 --> 00:26:33.412
[music]

00:26:51.450 --> 00:26:55.230
I think this music emerges
from the depth of despair,

00:26:56.700 --> 00:26:59.790
and maybe that’s why
it’s a cathartic work.

00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:03.043
Tamasaburo and I have
spoken about this.

00:27:03.210 --> 00:27:06.793
I guess we both feel
that’s why this work

00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.023
is so powerful and communicative.

00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:14.550
That’s why Tamasaburo chose
to choreograph this work,

00:27:15.060 --> 00:27:18.240
why I love it so much,
why my father loved it so much.

00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.653
Maybe that’s also why the
Sarabande of this suite is the very

00:27:23.820 --> 00:27:28.080
last piece I played for my father
just before he passed away.

00:27:30.485 --> 00:27:34.228
The Sarabande, for me, is a prayer,

00:27:34.661 --> 00:27:38.160
and I think Tamasaburo
instinctively understands this.

00:27:38.708 --> 00:27:45.708
[music]

00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:19.160
[background noise]

00:28:32.894 --> 00:28:39.894
[piece begins]

00:53:09.022 --> 00:53:11.022
[piece ends]

00:53:13.773 --> 00:53:20.773
[end credits]