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We're here at BC Studio
in Brooklyn.

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And I'm talking with
Producer/Engineer Martin Bisi.

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Now many of you have
heard the albums

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and seen the finished
product before.

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Now I get a chance to talk with the
guy behind the scenes.

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Hi.

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Martin: In this space I worked
with Sonic Youth, Swans,

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Angels of Light, Material,
the Dresden Dolls

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John Zorn, Fab Five Freddy,
Afrika Bambaataa

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Foetus, Cop Shoot Cop,
White Hills

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Over the years, a lot of people
that I admired came

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Debbie Harry, Iggy Pop,
the Ramones.

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Just a way to stay involved

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with the sort of people
I liked being around

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and the sort of activity
that I enjoyed.

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Material was a band, soon
to be a production team.

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By the fall of 79, there were
shows with the name Material.

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It centers around Bill Laswell,
myself on the periphery.

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We did a tour of the states.

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Martin, he was helping as a
roadie and sound person.

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The idea that even the roadie
was a part of

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the group name, Material,

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really cemented the whole
idea that we were

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all in this together.

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[audio clip of Discourse,
by Material]

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It was Bill Laswell’s idea
to get a space.

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I immediately caught on

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and was like,
“Yes, absolutely.”

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For one thing we needed
a place to live.

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I saw in the Village Voice
a space that had two floors.

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So that seemed kind of perfect.

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We could live upstairs and

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rehearse downstairs and
it was very cheap.

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I think it was just one
of the few spaces

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that the money was right,

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because I don’t think anyone
in their right mind

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would have rented the place.

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There was nobody living
in that complex.

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I like being a part of things
and people doing stuff,

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so one way to do that it
seemed was via tech.

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One thing I would do back
then was show up at CBGBs

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and offer to do sound

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and often enough the
answer was yes

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by whatever band was
going to play.

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The whole idea of having
a recording studio

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sort of cobbled together slowly.

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There was basically a void.

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There weren't that many
recording studios

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that were affordable.

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Either you were just doing it
with two microphones

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or basically you had to
have label support.

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Brian Eno is a big part of the
legend of the studio.

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When Brian Eno moved from

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Britain to NY, he wanted an
environment in which

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he could do some of his
more radical experiments

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with ambient music.

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Brian Eno is a
producer, musician.

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He started out in Roxy Music.

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Then went on to be
a successful producer.

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He lived down the street from me
when I was on 8th St

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and every day I would sort
of bug him for a session.

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Finally he read a review
in the Times or something

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of a gig and then he realized

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that I was actually
doing something,

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and he invited me to a session,

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which was “My Life in
the Bush of Ghosts"

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with the Talking Heads.

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[audio clip of “America
is Waiting”]

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I got the money from Brian Eno

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to complete what was necessary

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to have the bare basics of what
you’d call a recording studio.

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It was a cheap way to record.

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He probably liked the lo-fi idea
of going to Brooklyn.

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Something different for him.

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I think the other members
of Material

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kind of massaged that through,

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like, “Hey, Martin's thinking of
starting a recording studio”,

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cause I don't think I
was that forward.

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Bill hooked up a deal,

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which was great, in which Eno
wrote a check to Martin

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and told him to get the
equipment that he needed.

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Eno wanted to create improvised
music that wasn't loud

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that was in the mode of
this ambient idea

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that he was exploring

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and I think for On Land
he wanted to have

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an environment where he
could have musicians

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in a space where they could
look at images, slides, films

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and react to that.

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[audio clip of Lizard Point
from On Land]

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Martin was much younger than
everyone involved, basically.

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When he started the studio
he was 17.

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And it's pretty strange,
in terms of my history,

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that my first real
recording session,

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not just assisting, was
the Brian Eno recording.

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And actually maybe
that's also why

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there wasn't a continued
relationship with Eno.

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I think it went ok?

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But I was pretty much a kid and
Eno had to show me stuff,

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because he thought
I was going to be

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a little more of
a recording engineer

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and I was just a kid
with a lot of chutzpah.

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In fact that's one thing I
learned from him was about

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controlling process in sort
of counter intuitive ways.

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Brian Eno had this deck of cards

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and he had them
in the studio

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and he was showing them to me.

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All ideas for what to do during
your creative process.

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You just pull a card out,
stuff like “Back up one step”

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“Start Over”, all this
kind of stuff that

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you would do when you encounter

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obstacles in your process.

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We didn’t really know
what we were doing

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so just glad to be working
and doing things.

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I pretty much had this attitude

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that I could go in there,
figure it out

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and make something good,
just by will.

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Brian did not have to
record at the studio.

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He had all his
Roxy Music affiliations,

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he was a heavy weight.

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He was interested to see, well

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how is this going to work?

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How am I going to sound
in this context?

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They staked out this space and
they were kind of like pioneers

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but it was a place where
you could get stuff done

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and it was exciting.

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There was a knowledge
between everyone

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that this was gonna help a lot

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of underground people make music

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and to have decent
equipment to do it.

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Part of what was inspiring
really to Eno was,

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I mean, we were
kind of taking this

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sort of wild west edgy
thing of the East Village

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really to this other level.

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It wasn't scary in that it
was a bad neighborhood.

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It was scary in that it
was totally industrial

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so it wasn't like you
were walking down

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the street and there
were shady people.

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There were no people,
but if there were people,

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you were in trouble

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because there was where to run.

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I used to play in the Mudd Club

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and CBGBs, where you might make

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$50, $100 a gig.

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Coming home you just basically
pull that out of your pocket

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when you're walking
up the subway

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and give it to the guys
with the baseball bats.

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There was definitely a lot of
mystery around here.

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There was mafia,
there was gangs,

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there was wild packs
of dogs, feral dogs.

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There were gangs there
at the time,

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like that one gang
called The Confederates,

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who would wear Confederate hats.

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There were girl gangs,
all kinds of weird stuff.

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Back then, nobody
went to Brooklyn

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and so the fact that BC Studio
was out there was kind

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of an anomaly.

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It wasn't the expensive
days of today

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so people could afford to
still live in the East Village.

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The big difference between
Gowanus and the East Village

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was of course that
it was all small spaces,

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it was all ex-tenements.

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So we wanted a space where
we could stretch out.

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I really started out
with avant garde music

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because that's the
stuff that most

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appealed to my rebelliousness.

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Also, I came from a
classical background

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and I really despised
classical music as a kid.

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Martin's mother was
a concert pianist.

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I think he had a natural
rebellion against that.

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My parents would have me
go to the Philharmonic,

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I just found it unbearable and
I hated the Upper East Side,

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where I grew up.

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And I hated all those bourgeois
values and bourgeois aesthetics.

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So anyway, when I saw
people manipulating instruments

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and making them
sound very different,

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actually let's say
destroying sound,

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that just really appealed
in two ways to me

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because it was destructive
and new and rebelliousness.

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And it also had a
very aggressive quality.

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I believe he was an only child

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to two professionals, who
themselves came from money.

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I believe that when
they passed away,

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part of his inheritance went
to opening the studio,

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but after that,
times were tough.

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By 1982, Material was
sort of morphing

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morphing into a production
team, where we

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basically were outreaching
to other music

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and other bands and
other genres and saying

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“Let's bring them into
this recording studio"

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and that included hip hop.

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It wasn’t even called
hip hop, really,

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it was just this new, weird
thing that was happening

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A guy who’s a French Algerian,

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named Bernard Zekri, who
went on to be a huge journalist

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and television guy in France,

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called us to do beats and tracks

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for different artists that
were on Celluloid.

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The French label Celluloid,

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was some of the first
hip hop recorded.

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Celluloid, was interested
in hip hop but also,

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oddly enough, a broader picture
that included avant garde music.

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Celluloid actually
paid our rent

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for a little while,
which was $500 a month.

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One of the notable songs was
Change the Beat,

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which was
a Fab Five Freddy song.

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[audio clip of FFF's
Change the Beat]

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We recorded it, it had
some vocoder.

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It had an interesting
moment in it

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where there's a break and a stop

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and a vocoder says,
“This stuff is really fresh”.

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It was part of the lingo in
New York.

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Things were fresh

00:10:07.607 --> 00:10:10.026
and it was not just in hip hop
that people used the word.

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Strange as it may seem, I might
have even used that

00:10:12.820 --> 00:10:15.406
to describe a No Wave
band like DNA

00:10:15.406 --> 00:10:17.575
or I might have even said
Lydia Lunch is fresh.

00:10:17.575 --> 00:10:19.535
I might have said that,
it’s possible.

00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:26.542
But it wasn't Freddy's voice,
it’s Roger Trilling's.

00:10:27.418 --> 00:10:29.795
No one knows that,
I guess they will now.

00:10:34.133 --> 00:10:39.263
Afrika Bambaataa did some
work in 1982, 83?

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A song called Zulu Groove.

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[audio clip of Bambaataa's
Zulu Groove]

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Bambaataa was at that
nexus of hip hop

00:10:50.566 --> 00:10:54.070
in that he went from a
gang banger to a DJ.

00:10:54.070 --> 00:10:58.574
In the early 70s, Bambaataa's
gang, The Black Spades,

00:10:58.574 --> 00:11:00.117
with the leadership
in particular

00:11:00.117 --> 00:11:01.869
of the Ghetto Brothers,

00:11:01.869 --> 00:11:05.206
forced a peace amongst
all those gangs.

00:11:05.206 --> 00:11:11.712
That peace, was best
demonstrated by parties

00:11:11.712 --> 00:11:12.922
in which all of those gangs

00:11:12.922 --> 00:11:14.924
decided that they would
not fight with each other

00:11:14.924 --> 00:11:17.301
but party with each other,
dance with each other

00:11:17.301 --> 00:11:19.762
Those early parties and jams

00:11:19.762 --> 00:11:23.974
were the foundation in many
ways of hip hop culture.

00:11:23.974 --> 00:11:26.727
He had this whole Zulu Nation

00:11:26.727 --> 00:11:29.897
A very tribal grouping
of young people

00:11:29.897 --> 00:11:31.524
that all did kind
of different things.

00:11:31.524 --> 00:11:33.401
When he hung up his colors,

00:11:33.401 --> 00:11:38.989
he decided to create something
else, a crew,

00:11:38.989 --> 00:11:44.161
a social network
organization of people

00:11:44.161 --> 00:11:47.998
whose purpose was to bring peace
and fun and entertainment

00:11:47.998 --> 00:11:49.792
and that became Zulu Nation.

00:11:49.792 --> 00:11:51.127
We were working with Bambaataa,

00:11:51.127 --> 00:11:52.086
who we called Bam.

00:11:52.086 --> 00:11:54.588
Bill, in a certain down
moment said to me,

00:11:54.588 --> 00:11:59.468
“You know that there's like 30
or 40 kids upstairs, right?”

00:11:59.468 --> 00:12:00.678
And I was like, “What?”

00:12:00.678 --> 00:12:03.097
I couldn't hear anything,
it was like silence.

00:12:03.097 --> 00:12:07.435
I went upstairs and there
were easily like 30 kids,

00:12:07.435 --> 00:12:09.353
maybe 35 or 40 kids just

00:12:09.353 --> 00:12:11.689
crammed sitting in
every little thing.

00:12:11.689 --> 00:12:14.817
Just while we were having a
session with Bambaataa.

00:12:14.817 --> 00:12:17.361
Basically I had almost
the entire Zulu Nation

00:12:17.361 --> 00:12:20.865
of the South Bronx upstairs.

00:12:22.074 --> 00:12:25.411
Kool Herc was the first
one to really do parties,

00:12:25.411 --> 00:12:27.496
but New York had never
seen that in a park

00:12:27.496 --> 00:12:29.373
where a guy brings a PA system.

00:12:29.373 --> 00:12:30.624
So, that's when it started.

00:12:30.624 --> 00:12:33.377
And then people would
look for breaks and beats

00:12:33.377 --> 00:12:36.297
they could repeat and sounds
they could add to that

00:12:36.297 --> 00:12:37.423
Then they started scratching.

00:12:37.423 --> 00:12:39.467
As a Zulu Nation DJ,

00:12:39.467 --> 00:12:43.012
Bambaataa would of course
play James Brown

00:12:43.012 --> 00:12:49.185
but then he'd also play strange,
bizarre contrasting music

00:12:49.185 --> 00:12:51.937
like the Monkees' Mary Mary.

00:12:51.937 --> 00:12:56.901
Or he might play the TV theme
song to “I Dream of Jeannie.”

00:12:56.901 --> 00:13:00.321
Like “da da, da
da da da da”

00:13:00.321 --> 00:13:03.616
He would play that and
find a break in the song

00:13:03.616 --> 00:13:06.869
and make a mix
between the two records

00:13:06.869 --> 00:13:11.832
and making kids uptown
appreciate music that they

00:13:11.832 --> 00:13:13.417
might not have ever
heard before

00:13:13.417 --> 00:13:16.378
or just because it
was by a white artist

00:13:16.378 --> 00:13:19.131
or because it was a
TV theme song,

00:13:19.131 --> 00:13:22.927
they would by nature
just dismiss it.

00:13:22.927 --> 00:13:25.513
Bambaataa made them consider it.

00:13:31.101 --> 00:13:33.896
The first thing that strikes
you about BC Studio

00:13:33.896 --> 00:13:35.022
is where it's located.

00:13:35.022 --> 00:13:39.109
It's in this 19th century
factory in Brooklyn

00:13:39.109 --> 00:13:44.156
that has this super
gothic quality to it.

00:13:44.156 --> 00:13:46.075
The recording studio
is two floors

00:13:46.075 --> 00:13:47.743
The bottom floor is
the tracking area,

00:13:47.743 --> 00:13:50.579
where most of the
loud stuff happens.

00:13:50.579 --> 00:13:52.414
Basically the recording
of instruments

00:13:52.414 --> 00:13:54.792
and some of the quiet stuff.

00:13:57.461 --> 00:14:01.048
The top floor is
the control area,

00:14:01.048 --> 00:14:03.175
that’s where all the
information goes in,

00:14:03.175 --> 00:14:04.134
and where everything is mixed

00:14:04.134 --> 00:14:05.761
and where everything
is listened to,

00:14:05.761 --> 00:14:07.513
evaluated and edited.

00:14:07.513 --> 00:14:09.515
But the actual action,
the music itself,

00:14:09.515 --> 00:14:11.308
tends to happen downstairs.

00:14:12.268 --> 00:14:14.603
People that have worked
at BC Studio

00:14:14.603 --> 00:14:17.940
can almost all attest to
this spot here

00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:22.111
which is for decades,
has been a complete

00:14:23.153 --> 00:14:25.114
bane of any tall...

00:14:25.114 --> 00:14:26.073
Actually medium height.

00:14:26.073 --> 00:14:27.825
Tall people no problem,
because they'll be like...

00:14:27.825 --> 00:14:30.411
They can see, clearly,
they gotta duck.

00:14:30.411 --> 00:14:32.246
If you're in the middle?  Whoa.

00:14:32.997 --> 00:14:35.958
We're heading down to the

00:14:37.543 --> 00:14:39.336
tracking area of the studio.

00:14:39.336 --> 00:14:42.047
Actually this little spot
sometimes gets used.

00:14:42.047 --> 00:14:44.133
That's the thing,
the place is so weird

00:14:44.133 --> 00:14:45.634
and so freaking complicated...

00:14:45.885 --> 00:14:48.596
That's nice.  There's a lot
of little weird options.

00:14:50.014 --> 00:14:53.517
This is really where all the
bands mainly set up.

00:14:53.517 --> 00:14:54.977
Sometimes they even do
vocals down there

00:14:54.977 --> 00:14:57.354
because it sounds really good.

00:15:07.990 --> 00:15:09.992
There's something
almost garage like

00:15:09.992 --> 00:15:12.202
about the actual recording
space downstairs

00:15:12.202 --> 00:15:14.705
and it's interesting
actually working there

00:15:14.705 --> 00:15:17.041
because the control room
is on one level

00:15:17.041 --> 00:15:19.043
and the recording space
is on another level.

00:15:19.043 --> 00:15:20.753
So you have no visual cue.

00:15:21.295 --> 00:15:23.589
You have to take your
cue from headphones.

00:15:23.756 --> 00:15:25.925
During a typical recording session

00:15:25.925 --> 00:15:30.304
I’ll come up and down these
stairs maybe 30 times?

00:15:30.304 --> 00:15:33.140
These stairs have actually
ended up on quite a few records.

00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:38.437
I remember in “Missed Me”, for
some of the percussion section

00:15:38.437 --> 00:15:40.648
and choruses, taking
a ball peen hammer

00:15:40.648 --> 00:15:43.859
and just smashing the
fuck out of the metal stairs.

00:15:43.859 --> 00:15:46.362
Martin would just let you go
kind of haywire in the basement

00:15:46.362 --> 00:15:48.572
and destroy whatever
you wanted to.

00:15:48.906 --> 00:15:51.116
This is the imperfect...

00:15:51.116 --> 00:15:52.826
perfectly imperfect

00:15:52.826 --> 00:15:55.496
tracking room of BC Studio.

00:15:55.496 --> 00:15:56.455
It’s a funky space.

00:15:56.455 --> 00:16:00.167
I think a lot of the funkiness
is part of why it sounds

00:16:00.167 --> 00:16:01.835
a certain way and
why it sounds ok.

00:16:01.835 --> 00:16:04.088
It's not like, oh,
brick room. BAM.

00:16:04.505 --> 00:16:06.507
The imperfections, the funkiness

00:16:06.507 --> 00:16:08.592
all the funkiness
of the ceiling...

00:16:08.592 --> 00:16:12.846
It sort of keeps the sound from
being focused on one frequency.

00:16:12.846 --> 00:16:14.264
So it's kind of a broader sound

00:16:14.264 --> 00:16:16.308
So I think part of the
sound of this room

00:16:16.308 --> 00:16:18.477
is really a lot
of the imperfection.

00:16:19.895 --> 00:16:24.608
A great point of pleasure
or pride, dare I say,

00:16:24.608 --> 00:16:27.945
for me, is that a moment
from Change the Beat

00:16:27.945 --> 00:16:31.407
ended up manipulated
into the next song,

00:16:31.407 --> 00:16:33.200
which went even further,
which was Rockit.

00:16:41.083 --> 00:16:44.211
It was decided that turntablism,

00:16:44.211 --> 00:16:45.921
that scratching,

00:16:46.547 --> 00:16:50.092
that a DJ would really be
the feature of the song.

00:16:50.300 --> 00:16:54.680
The turntable, which was the
signature part of that piece,

00:16:54.680 --> 00:16:56.432
was recorded at Martin's.

00:16:56.432 --> 00:16:58.559
DST, he was an amazing DJ.

00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.436
He was like a jaw dropper.

00:17:00.436 --> 00:17:03.022
He would do all the juggling
of the wheels of steel,

00:17:03.022 --> 00:17:04.940
as they called it then
of the turntables.

00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:08.360
I became a DJ and at that
point I started shedding

00:17:08.360 --> 00:17:10.279
like I was playing drums

00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.450
so I would put the same amount
of time into spinning

00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:16.201
and perfecting my skills.

00:17:16.201 --> 00:17:18.454
He came here to pretty
much do the scratching.

00:17:18.454 --> 00:17:22.833
So he wasn't really finding
anything that inspired him.

00:17:23.042 --> 00:17:26.253
I’m going through these records
and then I picked up Fresh,

00:17:26.253 --> 00:17:27.629
Change the Beat

00:17:27.629 --> 00:17:30.841
and I did that pattern with the Fresh
and everybody in the room went

00:17:30.841 --> 00:17:33.385
“That's it.  Roll the tape.”

00:17:33.385 --> 00:17:35.387
And Rockit was one take.

00:17:35.387 --> 00:17:38.348
It was the first scratch rhythm
that anyone had ever heard

00:17:38.766 --> 00:17:43.187
that's done not just rhythmically
to that degree, but melodically.

00:17:43.187 --> 00:17:45.689
It's funny cause at the time,
the whole idea of appropriating

00:17:45.689 --> 00:17:48.609
someone else's music or
using someone else's music

00:17:48.609 --> 00:17:49.568
to create new music...

00:17:49.568 --> 00:17:53.280
Any kind of controversy about that
was way down the line.

00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:57.493
When you hear Rockit, you
can kind of hear in the scratch

00:17:57.493 --> 00:18:00.829
that it’s “FRESH”, like
mangled and manipulated.

00:18:00.829 --> 00:18:04.208
[audio clip where you
can hear “FRESH”]

00:18:07.377 --> 00:18:10.881
Rockit changed all of our lives

00:18:10.881 --> 00:18:13.926
and the truth is, Herbie Hancock
changed all of our lives.

00:18:13.926 --> 00:18:16.804
Because without him, Rockit
wouldn’t have done what it did.

00:18:16.804 --> 00:18:19.932
Taking a project like that
and putting it in

00:18:19.932 --> 00:18:22.518
the hands of an artist
of that magnitude.

00:18:22.601 --> 00:18:27.189
It was someone outside
of the hip hop community,

00:18:27.189 --> 00:18:29.191
namely Herbie Hancock,

00:18:29.858 --> 00:18:32.861
for the first time recognizing
how important

00:18:33.654 --> 00:18:37.616
hip hop culture and hip hop
music was at that time.

00:18:38.158 --> 00:18:41.370
Hip hop was considered
dangerous, subversive.

00:18:41.370 --> 00:18:43.539
It was the African American
punk rock.

00:18:43.705 --> 00:18:45.582
And for Herbie Hancock
to get into that,

00:18:45.582 --> 00:18:47.084
he could have done it by himself

00:18:47.084 --> 00:18:49.044
but to get into it
with guys like

00:18:49.044 --> 00:18:50.754
Bill Laswell and Martin Bisi,

00:18:50.754 --> 00:18:53.132
that helped him make
not just credible records

00:18:53.132 --> 00:18:54.258
but incredible records.

00:18:54.258 --> 00:18:56.802
Herbie, at the time, I would
say he probably

00:18:56.802 --> 00:18:58.804
didn’t know what it was
and had no idea

00:18:58.804 --> 00:18:59.763
it would be successful.

00:19:01.181 --> 00:19:02.182
Nor did we though.

00:19:02.516 --> 00:19:05.769
The greatest thing about
that was the collaboration.

00:19:05.769 --> 00:19:07.855
Everyone was on their A game.

00:19:07.855 --> 00:19:11.441
At that point and that's why
we had the success that we had.

00:19:11.650 --> 00:19:13.694
The album that Rockit
was on, Future Shock,

00:19:13.694 --> 00:19:15.946
was nominated for
the 1984 Grammys.

00:19:16.113 --> 00:19:17.990
To get nominated for a Grammy...

00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:21.994
and to go on stage and
perform and then win...

00:19:23.328 --> 00:19:24.913
there's nothing else to say.

00:19:25.455 --> 00:19:26.456
I was stunned.

00:19:26.456 --> 00:19:30.586
People started saying to me,
“Material won a Grammy.”

00:19:30.586 --> 00:19:31.879
And then it sort of
sunk in a little bit,

00:19:31.879 --> 00:19:34.548
because I really thought
of it as, “Great for Herbie”.

00:19:34.548 --> 00:19:36.508
I think when the
gold record came,

00:19:36.508 --> 00:19:38.719
that actually kind of hit me.

00:19:38.719 --> 00:19:41.138
That was a delightful surprise,
when we got the,

00:19:41.138 --> 00:19:46.393
Martin had got the gold
record for Rockit.

00:19:46.393 --> 00:19:47.352
It really struck me,

00:19:47.352 --> 00:19:50.772
it was such an icon of
music industry success.

00:19:50.939 --> 00:19:54.318
That was the first hip hop
record to win a Grammy.

00:19:54.318 --> 00:19:57.571
That was the beginning of the
acknowledgment of that culture.

00:20:10.751 --> 00:20:12.002
After Rockit,

00:20:12.002 --> 00:20:14.004
there was a lot of
interest in Material

00:20:14.004 --> 00:20:15.339
as a production team.

00:20:15.339 --> 00:20:19.885
That sort of catapulted him
and Bill and Celluloid

00:20:19.885 --> 00:20:22.471
into a whole other
category at that point.

00:20:22.471 --> 00:20:24.932
A lot of stuff came our way.

00:20:24.932 --> 00:20:27.643
Iggy Pop came,
we did some of his vocals.

00:20:27.643 --> 00:20:29.561
And I'd say, “Who's downstairs?”

00:20:29.561 --> 00:20:31.521
And he'd be like, “Iggy.”

00:20:31.521 --> 00:20:35.317
I'd go, “Iggy!  Iggy Pop?  I want
to go get him a pink cake.”

00:20:36.443 --> 00:20:39.905
Martin says, “No!  You can't give
Iggy Pop a pink cake”

00:20:39.905 --> 00:20:41.865
and I said, “I can, I want to."

00:20:41.949 --> 00:20:44.993
Ramones did a record
called Brain Drain.

00:20:44.993 --> 00:20:47.204
Ginger Baker, we did
a lot of stuff.

00:20:47.204 --> 00:20:52.834
Ginger is like, the drummer of
Cream and just all out.

00:20:52.834 --> 00:20:54.628
Ginger's drums,
we put them in his...

00:20:54.628 --> 00:20:57.756
he had a huge bathroom
and it's kind of old school.

00:20:57.756 --> 00:20:59.007
It's like Zeppelin and stuff

00:20:59.007 --> 00:21:01.551
where instead of recording in a
studio you record in

00:21:01.551 --> 00:21:03.011
a living room or hallway.

00:21:03.011 --> 00:21:04.721
We were continuously going
through here and it was like,

00:21:04.721 --> 00:21:07.975
“Wow!  This is actually a pretty
reverberate room!”

00:21:07.975 --> 00:21:10.310
It was an interesting sound,
we used to put the mics

00:21:10.310 --> 00:21:11.270
all the way up in the ceiling.

00:21:11.270 --> 00:21:13.480
I got these really
tall boom stands

00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:15.357
and put the mics all the
way up in the corners.

00:21:15.857 --> 00:21:17.526
We recorded a John Zorn record.

00:21:17.526 --> 00:21:21.029
Naked City, with Joey Baron,

00:21:21.029 --> 00:21:24.116
an amazing drummer and
he knows how to play a room

00:21:24.116 --> 00:21:25.534
so he could actually, whoa,

00:21:25.534 --> 00:21:29.288
could almost get drums
to sing in this space.

00:21:29.663 --> 00:21:31.915
John, he was a perfectionist,

00:21:31.915 --> 00:21:32.874
like Eno.

00:21:32.874 --> 00:21:36.003
Everyone was happy to have the
opportunity to work with him.

00:21:36.003 --> 00:21:38.046
A lot of people wanted
to record there.

00:21:38.046 --> 00:21:40.007
The Beastie Boys had called
about that.

00:21:40.007 --> 00:21:41.967
I think they had that song,
Cookie o Puss

00:21:41.967 --> 00:21:42.926
or something like that?

00:21:42.926 --> 00:21:46.138
I'd heard of them, but
I hadn't seen them live.

00:21:46.138 --> 00:21:49.266
The funny thing is that everyone
said I looked like an Indian.

00:21:49.808 --> 00:21:53.270
The Beastie Boys, cause Martin
had such like a native look

00:21:53.270 --> 00:21:56.231
You know he had the headband
and the long hair,

00:21:56.231 --> 00:21:59.318
and when he came they were like,
“Billy Jack has arrived”

00:22:00.277 --> 00:22:01.987
Now in retrospect
it's like,

00:22:01.987 --> 00:22:03.363
“You didn't have time to
record Deee-Lite?

00:22:03.363 --> 00:22:05.157
You didn't have time
for the Beastie Boys?”

00:22:05.157 --> 00:22:06.783
But the Beastie Boys weren't
the Beastie Boys

00:22:06.783 --> 00:22:07.743
and Deee-Lite wasn't Deee-Lite.

00:22:08.744 --> 00:22:11.330
Material did a record
called “One Down.”

00:22:11.538 --> 00:22:13.623
I was doing a song and
I needed a vocal.

00:22:13.623 --> 00:22:15.876
I went to Bruce Lundvall, who
was the head of Elektra

00:22:15.876 --> 00:22:19.421
and he said he wanted to
recommend his friend,

00:22:19.421 --> 00:22:21.673
who was a famous singer,
called Cissy Houston,

00:22:21.673 --> 00:22:24.301
said she has a daughter that
everyone is raving about.

00:22:24.301 --> 00:22:27.054
Whitney Houston was completely
unknown, cause at that point

00:22:27.054 --> 00:22:29.222
she had done a bunch
of background singing, and

00:22:29.222 --> 00:22:33.602
they thought it would be nice
to try her as a lead singer.

00:22:33.602 --> 00:22:38.482
[audio clip of
Material's Memories]

00:22:41.485 --> 00:22:42.819
She had like, pigtails,

00:22:42.819 --> 00:22:44.780
and she looked like
she was 12 years old.

00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:48.367
And I said, if you could just,
I don’t remember the suggestion

00:22:48.367 --> 00:22:51.411
and she said, “I was told
I could do whatever I wanted.”

00:22:51.411 --> 00:22:52.996
And I said, “Ok.
Yeah, go for it.”

00:22:52.996 --> 00:22:55.207
So she sang it all
the way through.

00:22:55.624 --> 00:22:56.792
I said, “That was great!”

00:22:56.792 --> 00:22:58.377
She said, “Let me try it again.“

00:22:58.710 --> 00:23:01.505
She sang it twice and
we kept the first one.

00:23:01.505 --> 00:23:03.465
But she never stopped for a
punch, I don't think.

00:23:03.465 --> 00:23:04.841
She sang it straight through.

00:23:04.841 --> 00:23:06.718
Which means she had been
working all night on it.

00:23:07.094 --> 00:23:10.806
Material and me, we recorded
the basics here.

00:23:10.806 --> 00:23:14.726
The recording of her voice was
the one thing I didn't do.

00:23:14.726 --> 00:23:16.603
Because actually we had to
do that in Manhattan.

00:23:16.603 --> 00:23:19.439
And it was a quick deal,
they just did it in Manhattan

00:23:19.439 --> 00:23:21.858
at the studio her mom was
used to working at.

00:23:21.858 --> 00:23:25.529
And I think Clive Davis signed
her, like really quickly.

00:23:25.529 --> 00:23:27.322
Less than a year.

00:23:27.572 --> 00:23:30.575
And because we had already done
a lead vocal on a major label

00:23:30.575 --> 00:23:33.328
she didn't qualify for
being Best New Artist,

00:23:33.328 --> 00:23:35.789
so Clive was always
mad about that.

00:23:36.289 --> 00:23:37.916
So they've got Whitney Houston

00:23:37.916 --> 00:23:39.918
and they need a
sax soloist for it.

00:23:40.043 --> 00:23:42.671
I was in a restaurant
with Roger Trilling.

00:23:42.671 --> 00:23:44.840
Archie walked by and I said,
“I think that's Archie Shepp

00:23:44.840 --> 00:23:46.800
we should go grab him and
put him on the record.”

00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:48.677
And Roger Trilling runs out
of the restaurant

00:23:48.677 --> 00:23:49.636
and grabs Archie Shepp

00:23:49.636 --> 00:23:51.680
and says, “Will you play
on our record?”

00:23:51.972 --> 00:23:52.973
He came the next day.

00:23:53.432 --> 00:23:57.602
[audio clip of Shepp's solo
in Material song]

00:23:57.602 --> 00:24:01.481
And that was New York in
the late ‘70s, early ‘80s.

00:24:01.481 --> 00:24:04.109
It was a rough nasty
place to live,

00:24:04.109 --> 00:24:06.486
but anything could happen.

00:24:06.820 --> 00:24:09.990
One thing I learned after
Whitney's death

00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:13.952
was that there was really
no connection

00:24:13.952 --> 00:24:16.496
between Whitney Houston
and Brooklyn,

00:24:16.496 --> 00:24:21.293
other than this studio and
the recording of the basics

00:24:21.293 --> 00:24:23.170
for the song, Memories.

00:24:23.170 --> 00:24:25.505
If people liked the way
each other sounded

00:24:25.505 --> 00:24:27.215
they could play together, boom.

00:24:27.215 --> 00:24:29.718
More often than not, if
they were in New York

00:24:29.718 --> 00:24:32.762
they played here,
at Martin's studio.

00:24:33.722 --> 00:24:36.349
BIll, at the time wanted to

00:24:36.349 --> 00:24:40.020
move the studio to Manhattan.

00:24:40.020 --> 00:24:41.730
Martin really didn't
want to do it

00:24:41.730 --> 00:24:46.443
because Martin really wanted
to keep the studio in Brooklyn

00:24:46.443 --> 00:24:50.322
and however funky it was,
however small it was

00:24:50.322 --> 00:24:52.199
he wanted to make
it always available

00:24:52.199 --> 00:24:55.535
and always work with sort of
New York underground scene.

00:24:55.535 --> 00:24:58.538
Me and Bill Laswell's aesthetic,
production wise,

00:24:58.538 --> 00:24:59.956
sort of diverged a little.

00:24:59.956 --> 00:25:02.918
He was getting into a more
polished territory

00:25:02.918 --> 00:25:05.504
because of him producing a lot
of major label stuff

00:25:05.504 --> 00:25:08.423
and I was much more going
in a sort of indie rock

00:25:08.423 --> 00:25:11.968
and post hardcore
kind of direction.

00:25:11.968 --> 00:25:15.680
I started to travel and do bigger
projects and we had budgets

00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.683
and I was experimenting with
different studios

00:25:18.683 --> 00:25:19.851
and different engineers.

00:25:19.851 --> 00:25:21.019
Occasionally I would go back.

00:25:21.019 --> 00:25:24.940
So many exquisite recordings
happened there.

00:25:24.940 --> 00:25:28.860
Marty would often time make
deals with people based

00:25:28.860 --> 00:25:30.362
on what they could afford.

00:25:30.362 --> 00:25:34.241
Artists sometimes knew that
Marty was a soft touch

00:25:34.241 --> 00:25:37.494
and knew that they could twist
his arm without much effort

00:25:37.494 --> 00:25:40.497
into letting them go a
few more hours,

00:25:40.497 --> 00:25:42.332
even though they didn't have
the money to pay for it.

00:25:42.332 --> 00:25:44.209
Sometimes he did
things for free.

00:25:44.209 --> 00:25:47.546
Bill and Martin, what is really
great about both of them

00:25:47.546 --> 00:25:49.631
is that they're not petty.

00:25:49.631 --> 00:25:51.132
It was never about money

00:25:51.132 --> 00:25:52.467
it was never about
any of those things.

00:25:52.467 --> 00:25:55.011
It was about creating
something strong.

00:25:55.011 --> 00:25:56.638
The running of BC Studio
has always been

00:25:56.638 --> 00:25:59.432
I believe, a labor of love.

00:26:00.725 --> 00:26:02.394
Some of my favorite
records are records

00:26:02.394 --> 00:26:04.354
that Martin has produced
or engineered.

00:26:04.354 --> 00:26:06.273
And they run the gamut.

00:26:06.273 --> 00:26:08.567
There’s Herbie Hancock's
Sound System.

00:26:08.567 --> 00:26:12.445
Also, Bad Moon Rising, this
terrific Sonic Youth record.

00:26:12.445 --> 00:26:15.699
[audio clip for Brave Men
Run (In My Family)]

00:26:19.828 --> 00:26:21.705
Kind of a seminal break
through record

00:26:21.705 --> 00:26:23.873
in terms of their
artistic evolution.

00:26:23.873 --> 00:26:26.084
Martin’s name was thrown
around at the time,

00:26:26.084 --> 00:26:28.878
he was working with people
like Laswell and Material.

00:26:28.878 --> 00:26:31.172
I just remember walking in there
and seeing a lot of records

00:26:31.172 --> 00:26:32.674
on the walls and
thinking, “Oh, this guy's

00:26:32.674 --> 00:26:34.551
got a really serious
operation here.”

00:26:34.551 --> 00:26:37.804
He was doing a lot of hip hop
and beat driven stuff.

00:26:37.804 --> 00:26:40.015
I think in an interview they
were quoted as saying

00:26:40.015 --> 00:26:42.142
that they were working
on their new record

00:26:42.142 --> 00:26:43.643
with a hip hop producer.

00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:46.479
Everything back then was
happening in lower Manhattan.

00:26:46.479 --> 00:26:49.649
There was such a glut, there
were so many No Wave bands

00:26:49.649 --> 00:26:51.234
there was so much punk

00:26:51.234 --> 00:26:54.821
that I think Sonic Youth in
terms of their own identity

00:26:54.821 --> 00:26:59.409
felt like they needed to
be at an arm's length

00:26:59.409 --> 00:27:02.454
from actually what now
what really defines them

00:27:02.454 --> 00:27:05.332
which is post punk and no wave.

00:27:05.332 --> 00:27:08.209
It was a pretty scruffy scene
in the early '80s.

00:27:08.209 --> 00:27:09.836
There weren't a lot
of places to play.

00:27:09.836 --> 00:27:11.713
there in particular weren't
a lot of places

00:27:11.713 --> 00:27:14.841
that cared to put on the kind
of music we were making

00:27:14.841 --> 00:27:17.677
or that Swans were making
or Rat at Rat R.

00:27:17.677 --> 00:27:19.971
There was one place in
particular that fostered

00:27:19.971 --> 00:27:22.432
a lot of those bands and
it was on like 3rd St

00:27:22.432 --> 00:27:23.808
and B or C?

00:27:23.808 --> 00:27:26.144
And it was called the Sin Club.

00:27:26.144 --> 00:27:28.480
and it was just a little grotty,
hole in the wall

00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.774
but they were really all about

00:27:30.774 --> 00:27:32.984
the kind of music we
were all making.

00:27:32.984 --> 00:27:35.445
Truth is that Sonic Youth
was the opening

00:27:35.445 --> 00:27:38.865
into my escape in a way from
really almost religiously

00:27:38.865 --> 00:27:40.742
working on avant grade
music and hip hop.

00:27:40.742 --> 00:27:42.577
I don't remember how
many rock records

00:27:42.577 --> 00:27:44.120
he had done at that point.

00:27:44.120 --> 00:27:47.666
I sort of have a feeling that
our working there turned

00:27:47.666 --> 00:27:51.002
the tide for him and a lot more
rock people came there after us.

00:27:51.002 --> 00:27:53.505
I think Swans recorded there
after us and Live Skull

00:27:53.505 --> 00:27:54.464
did a bunch of records there.

00:27:54.464 --> 00:27:57.592
Martin looked the same
then as he does now.

00:27:57.592 --> 00:28:00.261
I walk in, the straight
long hair

00:28:00.261 --> 00:28:03.682
and a headband, kind of like
a hippie Indian or something.

00:28:03.682 --> 00:28:05.850
He knew what he
was doing, I didn't.

00:28:05.850 --> 00:28:08.895
It had one of these vibes like
where you got off the train,

00:28:08.895 --> 00:28:12.190
you really wanted to move
quickly down the street and get

00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:13.858
into his building.

00:28:13.858 --> 00:28:16.486
You’d get there and be inside of
Martin's sanctuary

00:28:16.486 --> 00:28:17.737
and that was really cool.

00:28:17.737 --> 00:28:21.074
I had no idea that the studio
was even in Gowanus.

00:28:21.074 --> 00:28:23.201
Back then to me,
it was just Brooklyn.

00:28:25.954 --> 00:28:28.123
This is the record that
was recorded there.

00:28:31.084 --> 00:28:33.628
That's me with my hair
sticking up in the air.

00:28:34.254 --> 00:28:37.090
Everybody in Sonic Youth
I think understood that

00:28:37.090 --> 00:28:39.718
that it was a really
important record.

00:28:39.718 --> 00:28:42.387
We had some grand
conceptual ideas

00:28:42.387 --> 00:28:44.681
about what we wanted
the record to come out like.

00:28:44.681 --> 00:28:46.725
In particular we were
working off what we were

00:28:46.725 --> 00:28:48.977
doing in concert, which was
stringing all the songs

00:28:48.977 --> 00:28:50.353
together without any breaks.

00:28:50.353 --> 00:28:52.939
It almost felt like this
long suite of material

00:28:52.939 --> 00:28:55.525
and we were filling the spaces
between songs with

00:28:55.525 --> 00:28:58.069
either guitar noise
or cassette tapes

00:28:58.069 --> 00:28:59.738
on stage and things like that.

00:28:59.738 --> 00:29:01.531
We went into Martin's
knowing that we

00:29:01.531 --> 00:29:05.368
wanted to make the record
have that same feel.

00:29:05.368 --> 00:29:08.705
It really didnt fit easily
into a lot of categories,

00:29:08.705 --> 00:29:09.956
like it wasn't punk,

00:29:09.956 --> 00:29:13.293
so when you see something like
that you kind of recognize it.

00:29:13.293 --> 00:29:16.546
What Sonic Youth was doing
at the time was pretty radically

00:29:16.546 --> 00:29:18.590
different than what
anybody was doing,

00:29:18.590 --> 00:29:21.259
so we didn't know
exactly how to record what

00:29:21.259 --> 00:29:23.136
we were doing or how
to capture it.

00:29:23.136 --> 00:29:25.889
We were hoping that Martin
could help us figure

00:29:25.889 --> 00:29:27.599
out how to do this stuff.

00:29:27.932 --> 00:29:31.352
In order to get the sequential
running of the tracks

00:29:31.352 --> 00:29:32.312
with no spaces

00:29:32.312 --> 00:29:35.523
in between, we had to do
some pretty weird

00:29:35.523 --> 00:29:38.943
technical things to get
beginnings of one song

00:29:38.943 --> 00:29:41.237
to line up with
endings of another.

00:29:41.237 --> 00:29:43.698
It was definitely not a
garage style recording.

00:29:43.698 --> 00:29:47.118
It was more like ambitious
and using the tools

00:29:47.118 --> 00:29:51.790
that we had to create new kinds
of sounds and weird

00:29:51.790 --> 00:29:52.999
kinds of sounds.

00:29:52.999 --> 00:29:56.795
And that combined well
with a lot of their exploration

00:29:56.795 --> 00:30:00.131
of what guitar amps could
do and what using

00:30:00.131 --> 00:30:02.926
almost found guitars could do.

00:30:02.926 --> 00:30:06.221
At that point our equipment was
a collection of hand me

00:30:06.221 --> 00:30:09.140
down guitar and amps
or cast off stuff.

00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:11.726
I think a guitar or two that
Glenn Branca gave us.

00:30:11.726 --> 00:30:14.979
I definitely had my original
Fender Telecaster

00:30:14.979 --> 00:30:17.148
Deluxe, which I'm
still playing today.

00:30:17.148 --> 00:30:19.692
We were just starting to
build up a real selection

00:30:19.692 --> 00:30:21.611
of gear that we had
kind of hand picked.

00:30:21.611 --> 00:30:24.447
They definitely had
not figured out

00:30:24.447 --> 00:30:26.282
where they were
going rhythmically

00:30:26.282 --> 00:30:29.118
and one of the things
that Bad Moon Rising

00:30:29.118 --> 00:30:32.705
kind of set the template for
was that kind of primal,

00:30:32.705 --> 00:30:35.875
rhythm patterns that you
hear on those records,

00:30:35.875 --> 00:30:37.752
where things that would
inform Sonic Youth's

00:30:37.752 --> 00:30:39.295
sound for many years to come.

00:30:39.963 --> 00:30:42.340
That’s the one thing
with Sonic Youth

00:30:42.340 --> 00:30:44.133
was that they pretty much
had their sound

00:30:44.133 --> 00:30:46.010
and the one thing that
made them sound different

00:30:46.010 --> 00:30:47.637
was when they changed drummers.

00:30:47.637 --> 00:30:49.639
The Richard Edson records sound
completely different

00:30:49.639 --> 00:30:51.933
than anything else, the records
I played on sound

00:30:51.933 --> 00:30:53.017
completely different
than anything else

00:30:53.017 --> 00:30:54.811
and Steve's been
on it ever since.

00:30:54.811 --> 00:30:57.272
At the end of that
tour, Bob said,

00:30:57.272 --> 00:30:59.232
“I'm going to leave the band.”

00:30:59.566 --> 00:31:02.485
We shot a video
for Death Valley '69.

00:31:02.485 --> 00:31:03.444
When we were making it,

00:31:03.444 --> 00:31:05.864
it was already at the point
where Steve had like

00:31:05.864 --> 00:31:07.657
literally just joined the band

00:31:07.657 --> 00:31:09.576
and Bob had just ended the band.

00:31:09.576 --> 00:31:12.161
And so, we had both of
them in the video,

00:31:12.161 --> 00:31:13.705
drumming in different
sections of it.

00:31:13.705 --> 00:31:15.582
So it was a pretty
friendly transition,

00:31:15.582 --> 00:31:16.958
which was kind of cool.

00:31:17.584 --> 00:31:19.836
This is 28 years later

00:31:19.836 --> 00:31:23.006
and I've played on like
30 albums since then

00:31:23.006 --> 00:31:25.884
but that record is the
only one that made it

00:31:25.884 --> 00:31:27.260
onto a major label.

00:31:27.260 --> 00:31:29.012
It's probably the record
I'm most famous

00:31:29.012 --> 00:31:29.971
for playing on.

00:31:30.597 --> 00:31:32.098
It's funny how things change

00:31:32.098 --> 00:31:35.727
cause the board was once
sort of considered unremarkable

00:31:35.727 --> 00:31:38.354
It was considered to
have a harsh sound,

00:31:38.354 --> 00:31:40.315
it was kind of looked down on?

00:31:40.315 --> 00:31:44.110
But really what's happened is
over time, this kind of board

00:31:44.110 --> 00:31:45.069
an MCI board,

00:31:45.069 --> 00:31:47.280
appreciated as having a sort

00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:49.282
of time stamp to it.

00:31:49.282 --> 00:31:50.909
It's now actually
considered a good

00:31:50.909 --> 00:31:51.868
rock and roll board.

00:31:51.868 --> 00:31:53.369
This tape machine,

00:31:53.369 --> 00:31:55.371
this is what I used to
record everything on

00:31:55.371 --> 00:31:58.708
and it's sitting
there a bit unused.

00:31:58.708 --> 00:31:59.918
The whole issue with tape,

00:31:59.918 --> 00:32:02.128
which is actually a big,
controversial issue

00:32:02.128 --> 00:32:03.087
with audio people,

00:32:03.087 --> 00:32:05.798
like how much does
that affect the end result,

00:32:05.798 --> 00:32:08.217
and people's hearing because
things have gone digital,

00:32:08.217 --> 00:32:10.887
there's a paranoia of all
things digital.

00:32:10.887 --> 00:32:13.014
I'm a bit of a moderate
with all that stuff.

00:32:13.014 --> 00:32:15.350
Actually, I think that the
board has a bigger impact

00:32:15.350 --> 00:32:18.895
on the sound quality
than just tape itself.

00:32:18.895 --> 00:32:20.647
Tape vs. analog.

00:32:20.647 --> 00:32:23.274
Ironically for being a
recording engineer, I say

00:32:23.274 --> 00:32:24.233
I’m not an audiophile.

00:32:24.233 --> 00:32:27.904
So, the whole issue with tape
was not a big deal.

00:32:27.904 --> 00:32:30.323
Once I realized that
as I’m working with digital,

00:32:30.323 --> 00:32:31.282
the stuff that matters,

00:32:31.282 --> 00:32:33.326
the stuff that impacts
even the aesthetic,

00:32:33.326 --> 00:32:36.955
even “my sound.”
I still got “my sound”.

00:32:38.414 --> 00:32:40.458
[audio clip of
Shadow of a Doubt]

00:32:48.716 --> 00:32:50.635
When Sonic Youth did
their second record

00:32:50.635 --> 00:32:51.594
with me, EVOL.

00:32:51.594 --> 00:32:54.722
They had really gone even
further with the thing of using

00:32:54.722 --> 00:32:56.307
lots of crazy guitars.

00:32:56.307 --> 00:32:58.893
Sonic Youth loading in, involved

00:32:58.893 --> 00:33:03.648
maybe, 40 guitars?

00:33:03.648 --> 00:33:05.441
They actually couldn't fit
into the recording studio.

00:33:05.441 --> 00:33:07.652
We put it in the
sort of lounge-y area

00:33:07.652 --> 00:33:09.946
upstairs and it just occupied
the whole space.

00:33:09.946 --> 00:33:12.198
I would be like running
up the stairs,

00:33:12.198 --> 00:33:15.576
and bump into Lee Ranaldo
and Thurston's guitars.

00:33:15.576 --> 00:33:19.205
Just a pile of them.
Just heaved up.

00:33:19.205 --> 00:33:21.290
We had even longer and a
bigger budget,

00:33:21.290 --> 00:33:23.626
so we were branching out
in all different ways.

00:33:23.626 --> 00:33:25.628
I mean, Steve became
the drummer we

00:33:25.628 --> 00:33:26.587
were looking for.

00:33:26.587 --> 00:33:28.172
That was a pretty big change.

00:33:28.172 --> 00:33:30.383
There was a lot of cool stuff
that was happening

00:33:30.383 --> 00:33:31.342
in those sessions.

00:33:31.342 --> 00:33:32.885
We had a good friend
of ours from

00:33:32.885 --> 00:33:33.845
the West Coast, Mike Watt,

00:33:33.845 --> 00:33:36.180
come in and play bass
on a couple of songs.

00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:40.351
He hadn't really done any
recording or much playing

00:33:40.351 --> 00:33:43.896
since the Minutemen stopped
with the death of D. Boon.

00:33:44.981 --> 00:33:47.483
I think it kind of
helped to coax

00:33:47.483 --> 00:33:50.319
him back into playing again
after a couple of years of

00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.572
being mostly in
morning for him.

00:33:52.572 --> 00:33:55.074
That had a pretty special
meaning for us as well.

00:33:55.074 --> 00:33:57.577
One thing that showed how
we were into

00:33:57.577 --> 00:34:02.457
unusual processes and also
operated very spontaneously

00:34:02.457 --> 00:34:03.416
in the recording studio,

00:34:03.416 --> 00:34:07.170
is what happened while
Lee was reading

00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:09.005
the text for In the Kingdom.

00:34:09.005 --> 00:34:12.425
Thurston snuck up to the door

00:34:12.425 --> 00:34:17.013
behind Lee and tossed
in a pack of firecrackers.

00:34:17.472 --> 00:34:19.432
It scared the hell out of me
when they started

00:34:19.432 --> 00:34:20.516
going off and the booth started

00:34:20.516 --> 00:34:21.476
filling with smoke

00:34:21.476 --> 00:34:24.020
and I think I screamed
and most all

00:34:24.020 --> 00:34:26.439
of that stuff is left on
the recordings.

00:34:27.065 --> 00:34:29.192
[audio clip of
In the Kingdom #19]

00:34:34.614 --> 00:34:36.324
Before I saw anything I saw him

00:34:36.324 --> 00:34:37.867
grab his head and duck

00:34:37.867 --> 00:34:40.828
and then I realized
there was [makes SFX].

00:34:40.828 --> 00:34:41.788
And then I saw smoke.

00:34:41.788 --> 00:34:42.789
It was really a lot.

00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:45.208
I think I can still see
some of the burn marks

00:34:45.208 --> 00:34:47.960
Oh!  Here we go.
There's one.

00:34:48.544 --> 00:34:50.588
We were in a pretty
anarchistic state

00:34:50.588 --> 00:34:51.547
at that point.

00:34:51.547 --> 00:34:52.548
I mean, there were always
kind of goofy

00:34:52.548 --> 00:34:54.509
crazy things happening
around the studio

00:34:54.509 --> 00:34:56.886
that had Martin kind of
rolling his eyes.

00:34:56.886 --> 00:35:00.098
One thing that surprised Martin
when those records came out

00:35:00.098 --> 00:35:02.350
he called his studio, BC Studio.

00:35:02.350 --> 00:35:03.643
We didn't like the initials

00:35:03.643 --> 00:35:06.270
so on our records we
called it Before Christ.

00:35:09.357 --> 00:35:11.109
There was always downtown.

00:35:11.109 --> 00:35:14.237
There was always an
atmosphere of eclectic,

00:35:14.237 --> 00:35:19.117
kind of novelty mixing
of entertainment.

00:35:19.117 --> 00:35:20.993
Everybody could live
in the East Village

00:35:20.993 --> 00:35:23.287
for like $150 a month!

00:35:23.287 --> 00:35:25.873
So, I think there was a lot
of room for creativity,

00:35:25.873 --> 00:35:27.708
because New York
was not expensive,

00:35:27.708 --> 00:35:28.668
it was not desirable.

00:35:28.668 --> 00:35:31.003
Viki knew everybody and was

00:35:31.003 --> 00:35:34.590
really a special person
on the scene.

00:35:34.590 --> 00:35:36.676
A lot of people
really admired her.

00:35:36.676 --> 00:35:39.428
She was just super hip and
danced like a banshee.

00:35:39.428 --> 00:35:40.930
And dressed super cool.

00:35:40.930 --> 00:35:43.057
You could go to the
Mudd Club one night

00:35:43.057 --> 00:35:46.102
or Max's Kansas City
or CBs.

00:35:46.102 --> 00:35:49.147
Lou Reed would be hanging
out with David Bowie,

00:35:49.147 --> 00:35:51.524
Iggy Pop, Andy Warhol.

00:35:51.524 --> 00:35:55.153
It was just such an amazing
mix of people.

00:35:55.153 --> 00:35:58.072
Jean Michel Basquiat
staring down

00:35:58.072 --> 00:36:00.199
Johnny Lydon to see
who was cooler.

00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:02.493
This is like age neutral,

00:36:02.493 --> 00:36:04.579
it's like social status neutral,

00:36:04.579 --> 00:36:06.789
bums hung out with the elite.

00:36:06.789 --> 00:36:08.499
It was a really exciting time.

00:36:08.499 --> 00:36:11.627
Started a band with
Jean-Michel Basquiat,

00:36:11.627 --> 00:36:13.588
which was later called Gray.

00:36:13.588 --> 00:36:16.591
Gray was a band with
Jean-Michel Basquiat,

00:36:16.591 --> 00:36:18.843
Vince Gallo, and Nicolas Taylor.

00:36:18.843 --> 00:36:20.678
It was very avant garde,

00:36:20.678 --> 00:36:24.140
sort of ambient,
but with compositions,

00:36:24.140 --> 00:36:26.350
kind of sense of humor.

00:36:26.350 --> 00:36:30.021
We would often times
play our instruments,

00:36:30.021 --> 00:36:32.607
listening for beautiful sounds,

00:36:32.607 --> 00:36:36.652
listening for something that
a normal band wouldn't play.

00:36:36.652 --> 00:36:38.654
And by the way, all those
other bands that we were

00:36:38.654 --> 00:36:41.240
kind of competing with, they
were all pretty much playing

00:36:41.240 --> 00:36:44.827
conventional kind of new
wave, no wave music.

00:36:44.827 --> 00:36:47.872
What we were doing was
extremely abstract.

00:36:48.956 --> 00:36:49.957
[Drum Mode audio clip]

00:36:57.882 --> 00:37:00.676
What was interesting
at that time,

00:37:00.676 --> 00:37:04.263
there were a lot of artists
who were in bands,

00:37:04.263 --> 00:37:08.059
at the same time that they were
trying their hand at acting.

00:37:08.059 --> 00:37:14.315
It was this license that we were
given by Andy Warhol.

00:37:14.315 --> 00:37:15.900
He was our hero.

00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:17.735
He was everybody's hero.

00:37:17.735 --> 00:37:20.112
I was working as a
silk screen printer

00:37:20.112 --> 00:37:22.240
doing all of Andy
Warhol's artwork

00:37:22.240 --> 00:37:24.951
and one night I was on
the night shift and came

00:37:24.951 --> 00:37:27.286
across this silk screen that
had a cover of the Post,

00:37:27.286 --> 00:37:31.916
where it said, “Madonna on
Nude Pix: So What!”

00:37:31.916 --> 00:37:34.877
and it was a picture of
her and Sean Penn.

00:37:34.877 --> 00:37:37.630
I ran off of bunch of these
prints, you know,

00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:40.174
on the sly, and I was
handing them out to people

00:37:40.174 --> 00:37:41.717
and I gave them to Sonic Youth

00:37:41.717 --> 00:37:43.928
who without even
doing anything, put it

00:37:43.928 --> 00:37:47.098
on the cover of their
Ciccone Youth 12 inch.

00:37:47.098 --> 00:37:50.017
Turned out that was a
specially made thing that

00:37:50.017 --> 00:37:52.520
Warhol made up to give
to Madonna and Sean

00:37:52.520 --> 00:37:53.980
as their wedding gift.
(laughs)

00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:55.898
The Ciccone Youth
project came out

00:37:55.898 --> 00:38:00.778
of a mutual admiration that
we had for Madonna.

00:38:00.778 --> 00:38:02.697
They also had an
obvious affection

00:38:02.697 --> 00:38:04.615
for pop culture,
which definitely

00:38:04.615 --> 00:38:06.784
No Wave and avant garde music

00:38:06.784 --> 00:38:08.244
had actually no affection for.

00:38:08.244 --> 00:38:10.288
In fact, were sort of against.

00:38:10.288 --> 00:38:12.123
A lot of people that
liked Sonic Youth

00:38:12.123 --> 00:38:13.958
thought we were, as
they say in England,

00:38:13.958 --> 00:38:14.917
taking the piss.

00:38:14.917 --> 00:38:16.460
We were dead serious
that we loved

00:38:16.460 --> 00:38:18.296
what she did and we loved
those early records.

00:38:18.296 --> 00:38:19.630
I'm proud to have recorded

00:38:19.630 --> 00:38:22.508
Ciccone Youth, which
was a single

00:38:22.508 --> 00:38:24.760
that we did after recording

00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:27.513
recording Bad Moon Rising
and after we recorded EVOL.

00:38:27.513 --> 00:38:30.891
A sort of mash up, to
use today's parlance,

00:38:30.891 --> 00:38:33.936
of Sonic Youth doing crazy
stuff with actually

00:38:33.936 --> 00:38:36.105
the recording of “In
the Groove”.

00:38:36.105 --> 00:38:38.232
We started by laying
her song on the tape

00:38:38.232 --> 00:38:39.483
and then we were playing on top

00:38:39.483 --> 00:38:40.443
of it and he was like,

00:38:40.443 --> 00:38:42.695
“I've never seen anyone
do this before!”

00:38:42.695 --> 00:38:45.072
[audio clip of
Get Into the Groove]

00:38:49.285 --> 00:38:51.787
Subsequently we did an
entire record

00:38:51.787 --> 00:38:52.747
called Ciccone Youth.

00:38:52.747 --> 00:38:54.665
We went in thinking we
were going to make

00:38:54.665 --> 00:38:56.876
Sonic Youth's version
of a hip hop record,

00:38:56.876 --> 00:38:58.794
like our Beastie Boys record,

00:38:58.794 --> 00:39:01.005
doing our take on the
black music

00:39:01.005 --> 00:39:03.132
we were listening to at
the time, that we loved.

00:39:03.132 --> 00:39:05.593
And it ended up just so
diametrically opposed

00:39:05.593 --> 00:39:08.095
to that, so we called
it the Whitey Album.

00:39:08.512 --> 00:39:09.513
The funny thing about Madonna

00:39:09.513 --> 00:39:11.640
at the time was she was
very accessible.

00:39:11.640 --> 00:39:12.600
She was around.

00:39:12.600 --> 00:39:14.643
One thing that I still have
affection for

00:39:14.643 --> 00:39:18.647
with Madonna, is that she
stated her favorite band

00:39:18.647 --> 00:39:23.027
in New York was
the Swans.  So...

00:39:25.529 --> 00:39:28.657
My first experience with Swans,

00:39:28.657 --> 00:39:30.659
honestly I found them
pretty intimidating.

00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:34.121
Basically their whole
stage presentation

00:39:34.121 --> 00:39:36.457
was kind of terrifying.

00:39:36.457 --> 00:39:41.170
Swans at that time had
such a huge sound.

00:39:42.338 --> 00:39:44.757
[audio clip of
the song “Coward”]

00:39:53.307 --> 00:39:55.643
Swans was probably
the only downtown

00:39:55.643 --> 00:39:57.561
band that I can think of
that had this sort

00:39:57.561 --> 00:40:01.232
of persona that kept everyone
at a sort of arm's length.

00:40:01.232 --> 00:40:02.858
Sort of, untouchable.

00:40:02.858 --> 00:40:05.194
But anyway, so my first
experience was like, “WHOA”.

00:40:05.194 --> 00:40:08.114
I soon found out that they're
all very sweet people.

00:40:08.114 --> 00:40:10.866
I had heard about the
studio for years,

00:40:11.575 --> 00:40:14.495
through my friends,
then friends,

00:40:14.495 --> 00:40:16.205
Sonic Youth working there.

00:40:16.372 --> 00:40:18.290
We were very close friends

00:40:18.290 --> 00:40:19.417
and we were touring partners

00:40:19.417 --> 00:40:21.836
and if one of Mike's crew
couldn’t make it,

00:40:21.836 --> 00:40:24.338
I think Thurston subbed on
bass a few times.

00:40:24.338 --> 00:40:25.881
I subbed on bass with Swans.

00:40:26.424 --> 00:40:27.425
They approached Bill Laswell

00:40:27.425 --> 00:40:30.886
to produce the
first Swans record

00:40:30.886 --> 00:40:33.097
on a major and Bill,

00:40:33.097 --> 00:40:36.058
really tying things back in,

00:40:36.058 --> 00:40:37.852
came back to the
recording studio

00:40:37.852 --> 00:40:40.020
here to do some of the work.

00:40:40.020 --> 00:40:42.565
We were working with
Bill Laswell, who has

00:40:42.565 --> 00:40:44.442
as you know, an association
with the studio.

00:40:45.067 --> 00:40:47.445
And he wanted to record
some vocals and things there

00:40:47.445 --> 00:40:49.321
so I went there for
the first time,

00:40:49.321 --> 00:40:51.699
saw what it was like
and proceeded

00:40:51.699 --> 00:40:53.534
to make probably the
worst record of my career.

00:40:53.534 --> 00:40:55.161
The consensus was
that the record

00:40:55.161 --> 00:40:58.372
was a bit polished, because
there was

00:40:58.372 --> 00:41:01.750
this need to have it
be on a major label.

00:41:01.750 --> 00:41:04.837
As much as Swans was going
in a prettier direction

00:41:04.837 --> 00:41:07.590
direction and maybe a little
less focused on aggression,

00:41:07.590 --> 00:41:10.968
I knew where they came from.

00:41:10.968 --> 00:41:16.140
I liked Martin immensely
and so when it

00:41:16.140 --> 00:41:17.808
came time to do the next record,

00:41:17.808 --> 00:41:19.685
White Light from the
Mouth of Infinity,

00:41:19.685 --> 00:41:21.687
we just dove in and
recorded it there.

00:41:21.687 --> 00:41:25.232
The records I participated
on here with Swans

00:41:25.232 --> 00:41:27.651
were The Burning World,

00:41:27.651 --> 00:41:31.155
The Great Annihilator,
Love of Life

00:41:31.155 --> 00:41:32.198
and maybe another.

00:41:32.198 --> 00:41:35.242
One thing that separated me
from Sonic Youth

00:41:35.242 --> 00:41:37.536
cause the record I did
with them, EVOL,

00:41:37.536 --> 00:41:40.498
that record I went for
making it expansive

00:41:40.498 --> 00:41:44.919
I wanted it to have a cinematic,
almost ambient quality.

00:41:44.919 --> 00:41:47.087
It was great for Sonic Youth
and for that record,

00:41:47.087 --> 00:41:49.882
but I don't see that's where
they saw their band going?

00:41:49.882 --> 00:41:52.384
But yet with Swans, that's
kind of where

00:41:52.384 --> 00:41:54.053
we went and I think that's where

00:41:54.053 --> 00:41:56.138
Michael Gira wanted
to take it.

00:41:57.473 --> 00:42:00.392
The studio has
an attribute which

00:42:00.392 --> 00:42:02.520
most New York City
studios don't,

00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:04.063
which is a huge live area.

00:42:04.063 --> 00:42:06.649
In my never ending quest
to be Phil Spector,

00:42:06.649 --> 00:42:09.985
I was very attracted to that
because that meant

00:42:09.985 --> 00:42:12.780
I could make the drums
sound really big

00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:14.782
and things in a kind of natural
way, hopefully.

00:42:17.701 --> 00:42:19.161
This is kind of the sweet spot

00:42:19.161 --> 00:42:21.872
in the tracking room
for the drums.

00:42:21.872 --> 00:42:24.416
Usually we set up the drums and

00:42:24.416 --> 00:42:27.753
don't have amplifiers and
use the entire space

00:42:27.753 --> 00:42:29.046
to record.

00:42:29.046 --> 00:42:30.422
Actually what's nice about
this room is

00:42:30.422 --> 00:42:32.800
that it's an L shape, so it's
almost like

00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:38.806
having sonically, two
completely, separate rooms.

00:42:38.806 --> 00:42:42.893
We would typically, with the
drums set up, close mics

00:42:42.893 --> 00:42:45.312
on the drums and
then very far mics,

00:42:45.312 --> 00:42:48.315
mid mics and then far mics,

00:42:48.315 --> 00:42:50.234
and that way they
could expand at will

00:42:50.234 --> 00:42:52.403
and be kind of
normally recorded.

00:42:52.403 --> 00:42:54.738
He understands a drum kit like

00:42:54.738 --> 00:42:57.199
like in out backwards forwards

00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.159
and he mics a drum kit
like nobody's business.

00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:01.620
I love the way drums
sound down there.

00:43:01.620 --> 00:43:03.330
It sounds kind of cold.

00:43:03.330 --> 00:43:06.208
There's something about
the echo of that room

00:43:06.208 --> 00:43:08.877
I don't know, that
kind of feels like a cell

00:43:08.877 --> 00:43:09.837
or something like that.

00:43:09.837 --> 00:43:12.840
It’s just pleasing to my ear.

00:43:16.635 --> 00:43:18.971
And it's just a skanky basement,

00:43:18.971 --> 00:43:22.349
but it had naturally
decent acoustics.

00:43:22.349 --> 00:43:24.059
My studio really
works for people

00:43:24.059 --> 00:43:26.770
that have embraced a
certain sensibility

00:43:26.770 --> 00:43:30.149
and understand the place
of the studio within that?

00:43:30.149 --> 00:43:32.026
Martin had a rat trap
in the foyer

00:43:32.026 --> 00:43:32.985
to the basement and

00:43:32.985 --> 00:43:36.196
lo and behold on this
piece of glue paper

00:43:36.196 --> 00:43:37.489
there was this huge rat.

00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:41.160
Just going “RARRRR” and
spinning like this.

00:43:41.160 --> 00:43:42.620
We're like, “What do we do?
What do we do?

00:43:42.620 --> 00:43:43.787
What do we do?”

00:43:43.787 --> 00:43:46.540
So, we got some dumb bells there

00:43:46.540 --> 00:43:49.501
and just dropped the
dumb bell on the rat.

00:43:51.128 --> 00:43:53.255
And it was over.

00:43:53.255 --> 00:43:56.634
And then I turn around
to see Michael Gira

00:43:56.634 --> 00:43:58.552
in his boxer shorts,
standing there,

00:43:58.552 --> 00:44:00.471
just about to light
a cigar.

00:44:00.471 --> 00:44:03.098
He goes, “That was incredible."

00:44:03.098 --> 00:44:05.351
On that record,
which was Great Annihilator

00:44:05.351 --> 00:44:07.770
I thanked
Martin “Rat Crusher” Bisi.

00:44:07.770 --> 00:44:10.397
He only orders
pizza by the slice

00:44:10.397 --> 00:44:12.358
so I felt like we were
hungry a lot.

00:44:12.358 --> 00:44:13.901
That was kind of a problem.

00:44:13.901 --> 00:44:14.860
It was cold.

00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:17.196
It was so cold in the studio.

00:44:17.196 --> 00:44:18.739
We had that weird space heater.

00:44:18.739 --> 00:44:20.282
We were just huddled
around space heaters.

00:44:20.282 --> 00:44:21.992
Goddamn there's a
lot of mosquitoes!

00:44:21.992 --> 00:44:24.078
That's one of the first things.

00:44:24.078 --> 00:44:27.039
More than once, when
a band finishes tracking,

00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:28.916
and suddenly I hear some
screaming.

00:44:28.916 --> 00:44:32.836
“AHHH!  GODDAMN!"

00:44:32.836 --> 00:44:34.338
and I'm like, “What?”

00:44:34.338 --> 00:44:37.508
And they go, “It's fine, a
mosquito was eating

00:44:37.508 --> 00:44:42.012
my arm alive during that
whole take.  Ughhh.”

00:44:42.221 --> 00:44:44.390
I'm surprised that no one
fell down the stairs.

00:44:44.390 --> 00:44:45.349
I was scared.

00:44:45.349 --> 00:44:46.767
I was anxious about
the staircase.

00:44:46.767 --> 00:44:47.726
The staircase was scary.

00:44:49.228 --> 00:44:50.813
That whole place
is a deathtrap

00:44:50.813 --> 00:44:52.731
It's kind of like an
MC Escher drawing.

00:44:54.149 --> 00:44:55.943
Around that area had
been somewhat

00:44:55.943 --> 00:44:57.486
gentrified and while
working there

00:44:57.486 --> 00:45:00.823
there I noticed there was this
large area upstairs that was

00:45:00.823 --> 00:45:04.368
unused, so I proposed to
Martin that I build

00:45:04.368 --> 00:45:06.412
build a living space there.

00:45:06.412 --> 00:45:07.371
So, I did.

00:45:07.371 --> 00:45:12.084
I built a 600-700 square
foot box.

00:45:12.084 --> 00:45:13.293
He’d have a band down there

00:45:13.293 --> 00:45:14.586
and I'd be sleeping
on the couch and

00:45:14.586 --> 00:45:16.505
and they’d come up and go,
“Are you Michael Gira?"

00:45:18.173 --> 00:45:20.008
It was really weird.

00:45:20.008 --> 00:45:22.803
But yeah,

00:45:22.803 --> 00:45:24.847
you do what you can to
survive in New York

00:45:24.847 --> 00:45:25.806
so I built that space.

00:45:25.806 --> 00:45:28.267
Part of the whole idea
of getting a space

00:45:28.267 --> 00:45:30.811
like this, that was multi level

00:45:30.811 --> 00:45:32.771
was that we could live here.

00:45:32.771 --> 00:45:34.732
I had good relations with
the fire department.

00:45:34.732 --> 00:45:36.817
They kind of knew what
was going on.

00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:40.320
This is my space.

00:45:41.697 --> 00:45:44.491
I'm proud of squatting,

00:45:44.491 --> 00:45:47.578
of occupying this
industrial space.

00:45:47.578 --> 00:45:50.539
I don't know how long I'll
be able to hold out

00:45:50.539 --> 00:45:55.502
in Fort Gowanus here, but
maybe another decade?

00:45:57.421 --> 00:46:00.924
Swans segued into
Angels of Light.

00:46:00.924 --> 00:46:03.761
He recorded partially,
but to great effect,

00:46:03.761 --> 00:46:05.345
the first Angels of
Light record,

00:46:05.345 --> 00:46:06.305
New Mother.

00:46:06.305 --> 00:46:07.306
Angels of Light was less

00:46:07.306 --> 00:46:11.769
about making something
monolithic sounding

00:46:11.769 --> 00:46:14.813
or very expansive sounding.

00:46:14.813 --> 00:46:17.900
It was more about intimate
sounds and individual sounds.

00:46:17.900 --> 00:46:20.986
In that, you mentioned the
mic-ing of the drums

00:46:20.986 --> 00:46:23.489
I kind of changed my tune
about drums

00:46:23.489 --> 00:46:25.491
and wanted just one or two mics

00:46:25.491 --> 00:46:26.450
on the drums

00:46:26.450 --> 00:46:27.868
for a more natural sound.

00:46:27.868 --> 00:46:29.912
Didn't really want separation,
I wanted it to just

00:46:29.912 --> 00:46:30.871
be what it is.

00:46:30.871 --> 00:46:32.581
I overdid reverb in the 80s,

00:46:32.581 --> 00:46:36.293
much to my regret, really
damaged some great music.

00:46:36.293 --> 00:46:39.880
So I stopped using any kind
of digital effects at all.

00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:45.469
The sort of back story to
all the Swans

00:46:45.469 --> 00:46:49.097
recording sessions
was just intensity.

00:46:49.097 --> 00:46:50.682
Before I moved in there,

00:46:50.682 --> 00:46:53.519
much to his chagrin,

00:46:54.853 --> 00:46:56.313
I would just sleep on the couch

00:46:56.313 --> 00:46:58.774
and we would work
18-19 hours and

00:46:58.774 --> 00:47:00.359
then just wake up the
next day and start again.

00:47:00.359 --> 00:47:02.986
Martin worked round
the clock, nonstop.

00:47:02.986 --> 00:47:05.572
so I would hear at
4 o'clock in the morning,

00:47:05.572 --> 00:47:07.324
Bambaataa and the
entire Zulu Nation,

00:47:07.324 --> 00:47:11.245
Ginger Baker or Bootsy,
or Sonic Youth.

00:47:11.245 --> 00:47:15.165
We all felt that was
an important component

00:47:15.165 --> 00:47:16.875
to making great records.

00:47:16.875 --> 00:47:21.463
I personally feel now
you don't have to squeeze

00:47:21.463 --> 00:47:26.927
blood, sweat and tears into
every sound that goes down.

00:47:26.927 --> 00:47:28.971
I think we all felt that,

00:47:28.971 --> 00:47:32.933
definitely Michael Gira from
Swans very much felt that.

00:47:32.933 --> 00:47:34.643
As soon as I actually
hear the thing,

00:47:34.643 --> 00:47:37.312
a hundred thousand other
possibilities start occurring

00:47:37.312 --> 00:47:38.272
and things keep changing.

00:47:38.939 --> 00:47:43.694
And Martin was
diligent and patient

00:47:43.694 --> 00:47:46.488
to a masochistic degree with me.

00:47:46.488 --> 00:47:47.948
He didn't even want to go home!

00:47:47.948 --> 00:47:49.575
He just wanted to stay
here because he

00:47:49.575 --> 00:47:51.118
didn't want to break the vibe.

00:47:51.118 --> 00:47:53.412
He wanted to eat, sleep
and dream

00:47:53.412 --> 00:47:54.371
making the record.

00:47:54.371 --> 00:47:56.582
That also applied to all
the Foetus records.

00:47:56.582 --> 00:48:00.210
Almost dysfunctional
intensity in the process.

00:48:00.210 --> 00:48:01.795
We were pretty much
just killing ourselves

00:48:01.795 --> 00:48:04.590
here, somehow with the
belief that unless

00:48:04.590 --> 00:48:06.967
we did that you couldn't
make a good record.

00:48:06.967 --> 00:48:09.136
It didn't seem intense to me

00:48:09.136 --> 00:48:13.974
but maybe I have nothing
to compare it to,

00:48:13.974 --> 00:48:14.933
it's just the way that I work.

00:48:15.934 --> 00:48:19.313
[audio clip -
I'll Meet You in Poland Baby]

00:48:29.197 --> 00:48:30.866
Jim Thirlwell, Foetus

00:48:30.866 --> 00:48:33.285
very prolific, musical person

00:48:33.285 --> 00:48:35.412
who does a lot
of soundtrack work.

00:48:35.412 --> 00:48:37.581
I think he was a little
bit ahead of his time.

00:48:37.581 --> 00:48:39.958
I made one Foetus album here,

00:48:39.958 --> 00:48:41.543
which was Thaw.

00:48:41.543 --> 00:48:43.003
That was the first big project

00:48:43.003 --> 00:48:44.546
I did with Martin.

00:48:44.546 --> 00:48:46.048
That was an interesting album

00:48:46.048 --> 00:48:48.050
to do because it
was transitional.

00:48:48.050 --> 00:48:52.429
It was probably the first
full Foetus album that

00:48:52.429 --> 00:48:54.765
I had done in New York,
but it was also

00:48:54.765 --> 00:48:57.142
the first album in this
second wave

00:48:57.142 --> 00:48:59.478
of technology that
I was using.

00:48:59.478 --> 00:49:03.523
I had moved onto setting up
my own pre-production studio

00:49:03.523 --> 00:49:05.984
so I sort of had
my own computer.

00:49:05.984 --> 00:49:07.694
That was like a new wave,

00:49:07.694 --> 00:49:10.656
but I was mixing that
with acoustic instruments.

00:49:10.656 --> 00:49:13.951
Martin was good at
listening to where

00:49:13.951 --> 00:49:15.452
you wanted to go with something,

00:49:15.452 --> 00:49:19.873
but also without putting too
much of his personality on it,

00:49:19.873 --> 00:49:20.832
which I think is important.

00:49:20.832 --> 00:49:22.960
While you're trying to
create something

00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:25.170
that's kind of a
vulnerable time.

00:49:26.088 --> 00:49:28.048
And you don't necessarily
want someone

00:49:28.048 --> 00:49:30.550
making you second
guess what you do.

00:49:30.550 --> 00:49:31.718
Jim recorded a lot.

00:49:31.718 --> 00:49:34.304
Jim and Martin were
actually very good friends.

00:49:34.304 --> 00:49:36.515
The music is really what
brought everyone together.

00:49:36.515 --> 00:49:39.059
Everybody playing on each
other's albums,

00:49:39.059 --> 00:49:40.894
backing each other's albums up.

00:49:40.894 --> 00:49:44.690
We always had a camaraderie
with JG Thirlwell.

00:49:44.690 --> 00:49:47.734
Cop Shoot Cop I think I just
mixed a few tracks

00:49:47.734 --> 00:49:50.320
for their White Noise album,
here with Martin.

00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:51.697
I remember sleeping there.

00:49:51.697 --> 00:49:54.908
We just would go in there
and go into lockdown,

00:49:54.908 --> 00:49:58.120
live at Martin's house and
work through the night.

00:49:58.120 --> 00:50:01.373
Sometimes I would come
in with an album

00:50:01.373 --> 00:50:03.333
and assemble and
master something

00:50:03.333 --> 00:50:06.878
here cause I got to know the
sound of the room really well.

00:50:06.878 --> 00:50:11.133
I felt confident if I
assembled something

00:50:11.133 --> 00:50:13.635
here then it would sound
good in the outside world.

00:50:13.635 --> 00:50:19.641
So that corner was the place
where I would evaluate low end.

00:50:19.641 --> 00:50:22.144
He's still got the same
couch there.

00:50:23.270 --> 00:50:25.355
I'm sure that couch
has got a lot

00:50:25.355 --> 00:50:27.983
of memories and a lot
of asses on it.

00:50:33.947 --> 00:50:36.825
We never considered
ourselves industrial,

00:50:36.825 --> 00:50:40.245
there was one critic that
called us post industrial?

00:50:40.245 --> 00:50:43.832
There was a really vibrant
downtown scene at the time.

00:50:43.832 --> 00:50:47.252
We played gigs with the Unsane
and Pussy Galore

00:50:47.252 --> 00:50:48.211
as well as Helmet.

00:50:48.211 --> 00:50:49.504
Foetus we played with.

00:50:49.504 --> 00:50:51.089
It was very supportive.

00:50:51.965 --> 00:50:54.176
We were all just kind of doing
what we wanted

00:50:54.176 --> 00:50:55.719
to do just for the love of it.

00:50:55.719 --> 00:50:58.013
No one expected to
make a living at it

00:50:58.013 --> 00:50:59.806
until Nirvana got signed

00:50:59.806 --> 00:51:00.766
and it was kind of on
the heels of that

00:51:00.766 --> 00:51:04.519
a lot of us were able
to quit our day jobs.

00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:08.857
The 90s was one of the last
eras where you got

00:51:08.857 --> 00:51:12.569
the kind of Nirvana explosion
in the record industry

00:51:12.569 --> 00:51:13.945
and everyone kind of went “OK!

00:51:13.945 --> 00:51:14.946
Punk rock and
underground music.”

00:51:18.450 --> 00:51:20.035
We recorded White Noise,

00:51:20.035 --> 00:51:22.871
Consumer Revolt and Ask
Questions Later with Martin.

00:51:23.830 --> 00:51:26.541
[audio clip of Room 429]

00:51:37.677 --> 00:51:40.514
Cop Shoot Cop really says a lot

00:51:40.514 --> 00:51:43.308
about my ethics, sonically
and also politically.

00:51:43.308 --> 00:51:46.478
They were very, even though they
were actually on a major label,

00:51:46.478 --> 00:51:48.772
Time Warner affiliated

00:51:48.772 --> 00:51:50.315
they were actually very
anti-corporate,

00:51:50.315 --> 00:51:52.359
very DIY, do it yourself,

00:51:52.359 --> 00:51:54.361
and also the sounds
were experimental,

00:51:54.361 --> 00:51:56.947
abrasive, and so I
really liked that.

00:51:56.947 --> 00:51:58.615
Partly that was due to
how we would

00:51:58.615 --> 00:52:00.992
play shows and so much
of what we were

00:52:00.992 --> 00:52:03.995
doing was based on
our live performances.

00:52:03.995 --> 00:52:07.415
When we first started playing,
we would never be

00:52:07.415 --> 00:52:08.375
able to finish a set.

00:52:08.375 --> 00:52:11.586
There was always some kind
of outbreak of violence.

00:52:11.586 --> 00:52:13.755
either between the band
and the band

00:52:13.755 --> 00:52:14.714
or the band and the audience

00:52:14.714 --> 00:52:15.715
or just within the audience.

00:52:15.715 --> 00:52:18.218
That always used
to frustrate me,

00:52:18.218 --> 00:52:19.970
but then when we matured

00:52:19.970 --> 00:52:21.680
and we were able
to finish shows,

00:52:21.680 --> 00:52:23.598
I kind of missed those
days of chaos.

00:52:23.598 --> 00:52:25.100
The first couple of albums
we recorded there,

00:52:25.100 --> 00:52:27.102
I don't think he had
the downstairs space.

00:52:27.102 --> 00:52:28.353
When he first got it,

00:52:28.353 --> 00:52:34.151
I remember some people
made a TV pilot down there.

00:52:34.151 --> 00:52:37.612
This is live, from BC Studios,

00:52:37.612 --> 00:52:42.409
you're about to witness
the Blues Explosion.

00:52:43.326 --> 00:52:44.327
[music from set]

00:52:57.132 --> 00:53:00.635
We did that live show
with Jon Spencer.

00:53:00.635 --> 00:53:03.513
It was kind of like a warehouse
party, you know?

00:53:03.513 --> 00:53:05.599
It just had that kind of vibe
where it was just like

00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:07.767
a lot of people from the scene
and all their friends

00:53:07.767 --> 00:53:09.644
got together and we just played.

00:53:10.979 --> 00:53:15.066
I'm here with Blues Explosion,
we’re live at BC Studios.

00:53:15.066 --> 00:53:17.444
We really wanted to
push the music ahead.

00:53:17.444 --> 00:53:19.529
We wanted to get way out there.

00:53:20.655 --> 00:53:21.656
Way out there.

00:53:21.656 --> 00:53:23.325
Nothing matters except

00:53:23.325 --> 00:53:24.284
except the Blues Ex-

00:53:24.284 --> 00:53:26.119
except Martin Bisi studios.

00:53:26.119 --> 00:53:27.913
It was loud and proud.

00:53:29.331 --> 00:53:31.249
[music from set]

00:53:49.643 --> 00:53:54.147
In the 90s, when we were
filming the Basquiat film,

00:53:54.147 --> 00:53:56.399
Julian Schnabel made this
film called Basquiat

00:53:56.399 --> 00:53:57.359
about Jean-Michel Basquiat.

00:53:57.359 --> 00:54:00.195
Gray was a part of the film.

00:54:00.195 --> 00:54:01.488
We played ourselves,

00:54:01.488 --> 00:54:04.824
with Jeffrey Wright playing
Jean-Michel Basquiat.

00:54:04.824 --> 00:54:08.370
We had a lot of fun,
recording in the set

00:54:08.370 --> 00:54:11.289
in the scene that's supposed to
take place in the Mudd Club

00:54:11.289 --> 00:54:14.251
and afterwards I sort of
got everyone together

00:54:14.251 --> 00:54:18.088
to say, “hey, why don't we redo
the band for real?”

00:54:18.088 --> 00:54:19.047
And we did.

00:54:19.047 --> 00:54:21.925
And we did it with Jeffrey
Wright, as a matter of fact.

00:54:21.925 --> 00:54:26.763
We actually went out to
BC Studios in a big snowstorm

00:54:26.763 --> 00:54:28.848
on Christmas Eve or something.

00:54:28.848 --> 00:54:30.934
I really need to dig up
those recordings.

00:54:30.934 --> 00:54:33.353
Those were actually,
those were really cool

00:54:33.353 --> 00:54:34.312
they were really great.

00:54:34.479 --> 00:54:36.022
That's actually where the
control room is,

00:54:36.022 --> 00:54:36.982
that's indoors.

00:54:37.816 --> 00:54:39.276
See those windows up there?

00:54:41.278 --> 00:54:45.448
This is the gray room
at BC Studio.

00:54:45.448 --> 00:54:47.534
If you can't tell,
there's glass here.

00:54:49.536 --> 00:54:55.667
The reason this works well is
that you have two gigantic rooms

00:54:55.667 --> 00:54:57.919
so if I have monster-ly
loud drums

00:54:57.919 --> 00:55:00.255
and then like an accordion
or an upright bass,

00:55:00.255 --> 00:55:02.799
that's kind of a problem,
that's hard to capture.

00:55:02.799 --> 00:55:04.926
So to have the
separation really works

00:55:04.926 --> 00:55:07.137
and in this case, to
have it so two people

00:55:07.137 --> 00:55:08.763
can see each other really helps.

00:55:08.763 --> 00:55:11.182
And also, unlike a
lot of studios,

00:55:11.182 --> 00:55:13.476
both spaces are really large.

00:55:13.476 --> 00:55:16.479
Definitely the space was a
big factor in the sounds.

00:55:16.479 --> 00:55:20.984
The guitar we were able to
put in the huge room downstairs.

00:55:20.984 --> 00:55:22.986
I had the room all to myself.

00:55:22.986 --> 00:55:24.863
Yeah, he had one amp
in this giant room.

00:55:24.863 --> 00:55:28.867
Martin miced, I think he did
two mics on the two speakers

00:55:28.867 --> 00:55:30.994
and two mics about
twenty feet away,

00:55:30.994 --> 00:55:32.162
which is also
kind of incredible.

00:55:32.162 --> 00:55:35.290
A lot of studios I've
been to don't even

00:55:35.290 --> 00:55:38.501
have twenty feet to work with.

00:55:38.918 --> 00:55:41.838
And so any time we wanted a
different sound or more reverb,

00:55:41.838 --> 00:55:44.924
he would just bring
up the room mics.

00:55:44.924 --> 00:55:46.426
On a Dresdon Dolls record,

00:55:46.426 --> 00:55:47.761
on the song Truce,

00:55:48.345 --> 00:55:49.346
I went through a lot of trouble,

00:55:49.346 --> 00:55:51.765
I took like a half an
hour setting up.

00:55:51.765 --> 00:55:54.184
And then some
thunderstorms happened

00:55:54.184 --> 00:55:56.603
and then just as
I started recording,

00:55:57.145 --> 00:55:58.146
I realized, oh my god,

00:55:58.146 --> 00:56:00.398
there's this dripping in
the pipe in the back.

00:56:00.398 --> 00:56:02.442
And you can hear this dripping.

00:56:02.442 --> 00:56:03.401
And I was like, “ugh, now I have

00:56:03.401 --> 00:56:04.778
to find a new spot for them,

00:56:04.778 --> 00:56:06.363
how long is it gonna rain?”

00:56:06.363 --> 00:56:07.322
And then because of a bunch
of things, I was like,

00:56:07.322 --> 00:56:08.323
you know?

00:56:09.407 --> 00:56:10.617
Ok, so there'll
be some water

00:56:10.617 --> 00:56:11.576
dripping in the back.

00:56:11.576 --> 00:56:12.994
Actually that's a nice spot,

00:56:12.994 --> 00:56:14.704
if you listen carefully
on that record.

00:56:14.704 --> 00:56:16.706
One of the beautiful things
about working in a

00:56:16.706 --> 00:56:19.584
kind of imperfect and
organic environment

00:56:19.584 --> 00:56:22.379
like Martin's studio
is you get a lot

00:56:22.379 --> 00:56:23.338
of that character.

00:56:23.338 --> 00:56:24.339
When you make a record,

00:56:24.339 --> 00:56:26.758
you want to try to capture
moment in time

00:56:26.758 --> 00:56:29.427
and all those little details
kind of add

00:56:29.427 --> 00:56:31.304
and flesh out and color
that picture.

00:56:31.304 --> 00:56:34.974
That was a very
significant record

00:56:34.974 --> 00:56:37.143
to me personally,
because I think it was,

00:56:37.143 --> 00:56:40.814
it came right in the wake
of 9/11 or the year after

00:56:40.814 --> 00:56:42.982
that where things
were really grim

00:56:42.982 --> 00:56:44.651
in terms of music in New York.

00:56:44.651 --> 00:56:45.610
The big rock bands
out at that time

00:56:45.610 --> 00:56:47.904
were The Strokes and
the White Stripes?

00:56:48.446 --> 00:56:51.074
Fine, but it didn't do
anything for me.

00:56:51.074 --> 00:56:53.910
And then we had the 2001
stolen election with George Bush

00:56:53.910 --> 00:56:57.288
that whole Bush era where
a lot of people were going

00:56:57.288 --> 00:56:58.498
“ugh, God, what the fuck.”

00:56:58.498 --> 00:57:00.917
When I met the Dresden Dolls,
I was pretty amazed,

00:57:00.917 --> 00:57:03.878
they actually reminded me
a lot of the youthful energy

00:57:03.878 --> 00:57:06.381
that I had in
New York in the ‘80s.

00:57:06.381 --> 00:57:08.883
It was fortunate that Amanda
met him at a party

00:57:08.883 --> 00:57:11.386
and Michael Gira was there
and Martin was there

00:57:11.386 --> 00:57:12.929
and people were just kind
of mingling around.

00:57:12.929 --> 00:57:16.307
I think that was what
initiated the friendship

00:57:16.307 --> 00:57:17.725
and conversation about
working together.

00:57:17.725 --> 00:57:19.853
When we came down
to the decision

00:57:19.853 --> 00:57:21.104
of who we were going to
have record,

00:57:21.479 --> 00:57:23.815
Martin was the obvious choice.

00:57:23.815 --> 00:57:25.775
We were certainly
impressed with the fact

00:57:25.775 --> 00:57:27.444
that he had worked with a lot
of artists

00:57:27.444 --> 00:57:28.820
like Swans and Sonic Youth

00:57:28.820 --> 00:57:31.072
and so on that we felt
sort of akin to.

00:57:32.031 --> 00:57:34.242
It was very much like,
let's connect.

00:57:34.242 --> 00:57:36.619
Let's grow this thing and
see where it goes.

00:57:36.619 --> 00:57:38.913
The Dresden Dolls
made a lot of fans,

00:57:38.913 --> 00:57:40.999
so it was really quite
a phenomenon.

00:57:40.999 --> 00:57:42.834
And it really sort of
happened in this void

00:57:42.834 --> 00:57:44.085
void of nothing
happening in New York.

00:57:45.253 --> 00:57:47.380
[audio from "Good Day"]

00:57:56.514 --> 00:58:00.935
It was my first full length
album recording

00:58:00.935 --> 00:58:02.437
and Amanda's as well

00:58:02.437 --> 00:58:05.940
and a harrowing experience,
to say the least.

00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:08.776
There was a lot
riding on the line,

00:58:08.776 --> 00:58:10.111
you know, when you're
a young band

00:58:10.111 --> 00:58:11.488
and you want
everything to go well.

00:58:11.488 --> 00:58:14.282
And yet, we were still
trying to find our sound,

00:58:14.282 --> 00:58:18.328
but we had a particular
vision that we wanted to

00:58:18.328 --> 00:58:23.208
at least aim for and Martin
definitely had that background.

00:58:23.208 --> 00:58:27.378
Tracking part and the mixing
part were two distinctly

00:58:27.378 --> 00:58:31.591
different periods of that
recording session.

00:58:31.591 --> 00:58:36.429
The tracking process was
really difficult for me.

00:58:36.429 --> 00:58:38.640
Amanda was like, Get out!

00:58:38.640 --> 00:58:40.725
I want to be completely alone
during the recording

00:58:40.725 --> 00:58:42.810
of the piano parts
and the vocals.

00:58:42.810 --> 00:58:44.521
She just wanted to buckle down

00:58:44.521 --> 00:58:46.022
and do it with Martin
and that was

00:58:46.022 --> 00:58:48.358
a good way to do it back then

00:58:48.358 --> 00:58:49.901
when it was very new
and she had a lot

00:58:49.901 --> 00:58:50.860
of figuring out to do.

00:58:50.860 --> 00:58:55.240
And then the mixing
part was hilarious.

00:58:55.240 --> 00:58:59.327
I'll never forget when Martin
was doing his rain dance thing.

00:59:00.537 --> 00:59:03.706
Dancing around in his chair
going like, “hoya hoya hoya”

00:59:03.706 --> 00:59:06.584
And like beating a drum.

00:59:08.002 --> 00:59:09.003
You had to be there.

00:59:09.003 --> 00:59:10.797
That’s actually your guitar,
just at the end.

00:59:10.797 --> 00:59:11.756
Are you serious?

00:59:11.756 --> 00:59:12.757
And actually I like that!

00:59:12.757 --> 00:59:16.761
That means that one smart
alec out there will go, “AHHH!”

00:59:16.761 --> 00:59:19.305
The man's blood is half coffee

00:59:19.305 --> 00:59:23.977
and he's just like,
hyper focused,

00:59:23.977 --> 00:59:27.647
or sort of manic.
And we joked around a lot.

00:59:27.647 --> 00:59:30.066
He did incredible stuff on
the song, “Gravity"

00:59:30.066 --> 00:59:31.651
using the Memory Man.

00:59:31.651 --> 00:59:33.903
It was just like an
analog delay module,

00:59:33.903 --> 00:59:37.699
like a tape loop that slows
down and speeds up

00:59:37.699 --> 00:59:41.160
so you can catch a quick
section and repeat it

00:59:41.160 --> 00:59:44.038
and drag it so it goes “WHWHWHWHW”

00:59:44.038 --> 00:59:44.998
or the opposite of that.

00:59:45.415 --> 00:59:46.457
Great demonstration, I know.

00:59:46.457 --> 00:59:48.543
It's funny, a lot
of the old stuff,

00:59:48.543 --> 00:59:49.919
one thing that's really
good is that

00:59:49.919 --> 00:59:51.462
it's very manipulative.

00:59:51.462 --> 00:59:53.506
I got used to doing
lots of experimenting

00:59:53.506 --> 00:59:55.758
with little bits of equipment,
like tape loops.

00:59:55.758 --> 00:59:58.761
This thing is on a lot of
even hip hop stuff.

00:59:58.761 --> 01:00:00.847
There's just like weird little
sounds in the back.

01:00:00.847 --> 01:00:02.890
Unlike a lot of engineers today

01:00:02.890 --> 01:00:04.517
where everything is at the
push of the button

01:00:04.517 --> 01:00:06.102
and on ProTools, you
can just sort of like

01:00:06.102 --> 01:00:08.646
nip and tuck and
everything is just deleted

01:00:08.646 --> 01:00:09.606
and copied and pasted.

01:00:09.606 --> 01:00:13.776
Martin was at the board twisting
knobs and riding faders.

01:00:16.988 --> 01:00:17.989
“I think that was a good one."

01:00:17.989 --> 01:00:21.159
Really a visceral part of it
and that's great.

01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:22.118
It brings a lot of
character to it.

01:00:22.702 --> 01:00:26.205
And I feel fortunate that my
band caught that era

01:00:26.205 --> 01:00:29.667
where we got to work with
a great tape engineer too.

01:00:29.667 --> 01:00:33.630
It was amazing watching
Martin adjust the reels

01:00:33.630 --> 01:00:35.173
get everything ready
and cut the tape

01:00:35.173 --> 01:00:36.132
and make all the
different edits.

01:00:36.132 --> 01:00:39.469
Walk away with like 70
pounds of our album.

01:00:39.469 --> 01:00:41.679
I don't know if I've made a
record like that since.

01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:43.306
Ultimately we wound
up with a record

01:00:43.306 --> 01:00:45.016
that we were incredibly proud of

01:00:45.016 --> 01:00:48.019
and I still love listening
back to that album.

01:00:49.646 --> 01:00:51.314
We were trying to figure out
who would suit us

01:00:51.314 --> 01:00:52.774
pretty well and then
I looked at half

01:00:52.774 --> 01:00:53.733
my record collection
and realized

01:00:53.733 --> 01:00:55.902
he had recorded the good half.

01:00:57.070 --> 01:00:59.489
The backwards thing is
RIDICULOUS.

01:00:59.489 --> 01:01:01.616
I fade in the room mics.

01:01:01.616 --> 01:01:02.575
It's so badass.

01:01:03.826 --> 01:01:06.454
I fade in the room mics
and fade in the guitar.

01:01:09.374 --> 01:01:12.001
Swans, Sonic Youth,
John Zorn

01:01:12.001 --> 01:01:14.629
Afrika Bambaataa,
Herbie Hancock,

01:01:14.629 --> 01:01:15.588
Helmet.

01:01:16.798 --> 01:01:21.761
I mean, any who has
been in this area

01:01:21.761 --> 01:01:24.597
and made music that mattered
at one point connected

01:01:24.597 --> 01:01:26.891
with this guy over
the last 35 years.

01:01:28.017 --> 01:01:30.645
I feel like I'm doing
as much as I can

01:01:30.645 --> 01:01:33.189
to participate in the
continuation of music

01:01:33.189 --> 01:01:34.565
that I like and believe in.

01:01:34.565 --> 01:01:36.192
Listening to it this time,

01:01:36.192 --> 01:01:38.569
it wasn't like how I
thought I heard it

01:01:38.569 --> 01:01:39.529
when I played it.

01:01:39.529 --> 01:01:41.155
So maybe we should
scrutinize that.

01:01:42.865 --> 01:01:45.284
I love playing with
Violent Femmes,

01:01:45.284 --> 01:01:47.245
because to me that's
the type of music

01:01:47.245 --> 01:01:49.372
music that has the kind of
ethics and ideals

01:01:49.372 --> 01:01:51.916
ideals and performance
style that I love.

01:01:53.584 --> 01:01:56.879
I like it. I like how it sounds.

01:01:56.879 --> 01:02:00.675
I like the idea of not having
a melody instrument solo

01:02:00.675 --> 01:02:01.634
but have the drums solo.

01:02:02.093 --> 01:02:05.304
We haven't actually
done that before.

01:02:05.304 --> 01:02:06.264
We can just take it from...

01:02:09.225 --> 01:02:10.226
Keep it rolling, Martin.

01:02:10.226 --> 01:02:12.770
Just the way he miced
our instruments

01:02:12.770 --> 01:02:15.440
and the way he did my
whole vocals.

01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:20.153
It allowed for us to have a good
foundation for the mixing.

01:02:20.153 --> 01:02:22.572
And he does everything analog,
which at first

01:02:22.572 --> 01:02:23.906
I was really kind scared about,

01:02:23.906 --> 01:02:25.533
but it's been going really well.

01:02:25.700 --> 01:02:27.326
I almost feel like Martin
and the space

01:02:27.326 --> 01:02:28.286
have kind of become this one

01:02:28.286 --> 01:02:29.871
weird, symbiotic thing

01:02:29.871 --> 01:02:31.622
where he knew how
to use the space

01:02:31.622 --> 01:02:33.958
to get the sounds he
wanted or to copy

01:02:33.958 --> 01:02:37.295
and paste things on his
computer from the 1990s.

01:02:37.295 --> 01:02:40.673
Also a big part of it for us
was that he was excited.

01:02:40.673 --> 01:02:43.342
And I think he was having
fun too.  I hope.

01:02:43.342 --> 01:02:46.512
Making this album has
been amazing.

01:02:46.512 --> 01:02:49.098
This room has such a presence.
It's enveloping.

01:02:49.098 --> 01:02:53.478
To me, the whole thing
just happened really positively.

01:02:53.478 --> 01:02:54.479
I didn't even know what hit me.

01:02:54.479 --> 01:02:56.522
Yeah, all of a sudden
we had a record.

01:02:57.982 --> 01:03:02.153
So we're in the basement
of where the studio is

01:03:02.153 --> 01:03:03.112
of the building.

01:03:03.738 --> 01:03:07.366
There's a lake that goes all
through the building,

01:03:07.366 --> 01:03:08.951
all under the building.

01:03:08.951 --> 01:03:12.955
Across 3rd Ave, and under the
Whole Foods construction site.

01:03:12.955 --> 01:03:17.585
So I actually have access to it.

01:03:17.585 --> 01:03:20.588
Here is, the pond.

01:03:20.588 --> 01:03:21.547
[splash]

01:03:27.804 --> 01:03:32.391
The Gowanus area is a little
bit of a time capsule,

01:03:33.351 --> 01:03:35.394
because from my eyes,

01:03:35.394 --> 01:03:37.814
it hasn't really
changed that much.

01:03:37.814 --> 01:03:39.565
There are aspects of this
area that

01:03:39.565 --> 01:03:41.359
are really pretty
much the same.

01:03:41.359 --> 01:03:44.570
Pretty much between
here and Carroll St.

01:03:44.570 --> 01:03:47.198
Apart for the Whole Foods
that's about to go in.

01:03:47.198 --> 01:03:50.284
When I first heard that
Whole Foods was moving

01:03:50.284 --> 01:03:52.870
into the neighborhood,
my feeling was that

01:03:52.870 --> 01:03:55.706
this neighborhood was a
bit development proof.

01:03:55.706 --> 01:03:59.293
What got my thinking changing
about Whole Foods,

01:03:59.293 --> 01:04:01.379
as opposed to Staples,

01:04:01.379 --> 01:04:02.922
which opened up a block away...

01:04:02.922 --> 01:04:07.802
It's a combination of what
happens when the area becomes

01:04:07.802 --> 01:04:09.762
desirable for a
different kind of use.

01:04:09.762 --> 01:04:13.349
A residential use is about
double of manufacturing.

01:04:13.349 --> 01:04:17.395
So as soon as this place
becomes operational,

01:04:17.395 --> 01:04:19.981
the value per square
foot of this building

01:04:19.981 --> 01:04:21.732
can nearly double.

01:04:22.692 --> 01:04:24.443
It's documented.

01:04:24.443 --> 01:04:26.487
We see it happening
in other urban areas.

01:04:26.487 --> 01:04:28.197
We see it in other
areas of Brooklyn.

01:04:28.197 --> 01:04:29.949
When I heard that Whole Foods

01:04:29.949 --> 01:04:31.158
was coming into
the neighborhood,

01:04:31.158 --> 01:04:32.118
the first thing I thought was,

01:04:32.118 --> 01:04:34.996
“There goes the neighborhood."

01:04:34.996 --> 01:04:36.789
It's very complicated.

01:04:36.789 --> 01:04:38.875
Obviously no one wants
to live here because

01:04:38.875 --> 01:04:39.834
it's so polluted,

01:04:40.585 --> 01:04:44.422
but what you have from
that is space to be creative.

01:04:44.422 --> 01:04:48.217
Rude Mechanical Orchestra
started in 2004.

01:04:48.217 --> 01:04:51.387
I'm one of the remaining

01:04:51.387 --> 01:04:54.056
original members
of the project.

01:04:55.725 --> 01:04:57.685
[“Double Bunny” audio
clip of RMO]

01:05:18.623 --> 01:05:22.209
This is a project that
was started really

01:05:22.209 --> 01:05:24.211
as a way to challenge the

01:05:24.211 --> 01:05:26.047
Republican National
Convention

01:05:26.047 --> 01:05:28.507
when it was in New York
City in 2004.

01:05:28.507 --> 01:05:31.719
A lot of activists on the left
were really mad,

01:05:31.719 --> 01:05:34.889
rightfully so, that the RNC
decided to be in New York City

01:05:34.889 --> 01:05:37.016
of all places,
for its convention.

01:05:37.016 --> 01:05:39.352
It was a really amazing time
when the RNC

01:05:39.352 --> 01:05:40.311
came to town.

01:05:40.311 --> 01:05:42.813
I mean it was a terrible time,
but it was also a really

01:05:42.813 --> 01:05:48.069
artistically and politically
fruitful time.

01:05:48.069 --> 01:05:50.196
There's something about
having a common

01:05:50.196 --> 01:05:53.616
enemy in New York that
really got everyone

01:05:53.616 --> 01:05:55.993
thinking about how
they could challenge

01:05:55.993 --> 01:05:56.953
what was going on.

01:05:56.953 --> 01:05:59.497
The first day that we recorded

01:05:59.497 --> 01:06:03.417
at Martin's space with
Don Goodwin for the new album

01:06:03.417 --> 01:06:04.669
“Too Big to Fail”

01:06:04.669 --> 01:06:08.130
was the first day of the
occupation at Zuccotti Park.

01:06:08.130 --> 01:06:09.757
It was very fitting that

01:06:09.757 --> 01:06:11.801
everything happened all at once.

01:06:11.801 --> 01:06:14.887
And so, from then on, we
were very involved

01:06:14.887 --> 01:06:16.639
in Occupy Wall Street.

01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:18.683
The protest movement
picked up steam

01:06:18.683 --> 01:06:20.935
and that was inspiring,
so a lot of my own

01:06:20.935 --> 01:06:25.022
personal stuff has some
of the sonic expression

01:06:25.022 --> 01:06:27.108
in some ways of a lot of that.

01:06:27.108 --> 01:06:29.568
I loved how brass marching
bands sounded

01:06:29.568 --> 01:06:32.780
sounded in the canyons of
lower Manhattan during protests.

01:06:32.780 --> 01:06:34.615
There were a lot
of group vocals,

01:06:34.615 --> 01:06:37.827
that's because I love the
sounds of group chanting.

01:06:38.244 --> 01:06:41.539
My thinking right now about the
situation in this neighborhood

01:06:41.539 --> 01:06:43.416
is really the situation
that's for Brooklyn

01:06:43.416 --> 01:06:44.625
and the situation
that I'm hearing

01:06:44.625 --> 01:06:46.252
that's across the country,

01:06:46.252 --> 01:06:47.670
which is that low
income and middle

01:06:47.670 --> 01:06:50.631
class housing is under attack.

01:06:50.631 --> 01:06:52.508
There are no policies in
place that are really

01:06:52.508 --> 01:06:55.219
allowing the low income
and middle class communities

01:06:55.219 --> 01:06:57.930
who actually create a lot of the
beautiful art that you see

01:06:57.930 --> 01:06:58.889
to live here.

01:06:58.889 --> 01:07:02.143
It makes me feel like this
particular community,

01:07:02.143 --> 01:07:05.271
that I care a lot about, is not
much longer for this world.

01:07:08.649 --> 01:07:09.650
It's actually amazing how busy

01:07:09.650 --> 01:07:11.152
it is with all this traffic.

01:07:12.278 --> 01:07:14.405
You never would have seen
this when I first moved here.

01:07:14.405 --> 01:07:16.657
It was just desolate.

01:07:16.949 --> 01:07:19.952
Maybe one car way down there.

01:07:19.952 --> 01:07:23.748
And I've been hearing from
people in the buildings

01:07:23.748 --> 01:07:28.085
around here of a
real, clear spike

01:07:28.085 --> 01:07:32.048
in developers contacting
the buildings, contacting owners

01:07:32.048 --> 01:07:36.302
interested in snapping up
whatever they can.

01:07:36.302 --> 01:07:38.304
With this land rush,
just because of this damn

01:07:38.304 --> 01:07:41.640
grocery store, artists and
artist organizations won't be

01:07:41.640 --> 01:07:44.143
moving to Gowanus
in the next few years.

01:07:46.604 --> 01:07:47.605
It's gonna happen somewhere,

01:07:47.605 --> 01:07:50.816
but it doesn't look like
his will be that anymore.

01:07:50.816 --> 01:07:53.736
And of course there's the
old thing of what's charming

01:07:53.736 --> 01:07:55.946
about it will eventually
be destroyed.

01:07:55.946 --> 01:07:56.906
And that's true.

01:07:56.906 --> 01:07:59.617
At what point am I
going to ask myself,

01:07:59.617 --> 01:08:00.993
do I even want to
be here anymore?

01:08:00.993 --> 01:08:02.787
When I'm the
last one standing.

01:08:04.121 --> 01:08:06.290
I actually want to be
the last one standing,

01:08:06.290 --> 01:08:11.295
frankly, but what happens when
it just goes somewhere else?

01:08:11.295 --> 01:08:14.757
All the magic of what
has happened here.

01:08:15.966 --> 01:08:17.510
Let's go in.

01:08:18.677 --> 01:08:19.887
I guess, I knew I'd go in.

01:08:19.887 --> 01:08:21.806
I'm just not going to
buy anything, frankly.

01:08:21.806 --> 01:08:24.934
Yeah, I'm getting a real
emotional tingle about it.

01:08:30.272 --> 01:08:32.733
There's apparently
a vinyl collection?

01:08:33.567 --> 01:08:36.278
These are kind of my
peers shopping here.

01:08:36.278 --> 01:08:38.280
I mean, they may be a
little more affluent

01:08:38.280 --> 01:08:40.241
than certain other peers,
but that's the

01:08:40.241 --> 01:08:42.660
sort of disenchantment
I'm feeling.

01:08:42.660 --> 01:08:47.623
Not a treasure trove for
crate diggers, yet.

01:08:48.916 --> 01:08:50.668
I mean, they've got
Kings of Leon.

01:08:50.668 --> 01:08:51.627
I guess that's exciting.

01:08:52.628 --> 01:08:55.798
It really feels like
a whole world

01:08:55.798 --> 01:08:56.757
world is just kind of over.

01:08:56.757 --> 01:08:59.260
It's amazing what
one store will do.

01:09:00.302 --> 01:09:02.012
As far as my being here,

01:09:02.012 --> 01:09:03.806
I think in my mind, maybe

01:09:03.806 --> 01:09:05.683
I wouldn't have
imagined being here

01:09:05.683 --> 01:09:06.642
for that long.

01:09:06.642 --> 01:09:09.353
There was an evolution
in my mind about that,

01:09:09.353 --> 01:09:12.273
about appreciating the space,

01:09:12.273 --> 01:09:16.318
and how it's important to pitch
your tent somewhere.

01:09:16.318 --> 01:09:18.279
That the place informed
what I did,

01:09:18.279 --> 01:09:21.448
what inspired me, and in
some way that's even mysterious

01:09:21.448 --> 01:09:24.660
to me, went along with
the drama of this canal.

01:09:25.202 --> 01:09:27.121
My impression is that
in the 80s,

01:09:27.121 --> 01:09:29.582
you could be fucking around
and be in a band,

01:09:29.582 --> 01:09:31.375
you can't do that here anymore.

01:09:31.375 --> 01:09:32.960
So yeah, you have to work hard.

01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:33.919
I think it influences
what we do,

01:09:33.919 --> 01:09:37.131
just because I have to
work 40-50 hours a week

01:09:37.548 --> 01:09:39.175
and then be in the band.

01:09:39.383 --> 01:09:41.594
I am sympathetic with
young people today

01:09:41.594 --> 01:09:44.388
in New York trying to
find time to create

01:09:44.388 --> 01:09:46.974
and be creative and
productive.  It's hard.

01:09:47.141 --> 01:09:48.809
Honey, let's move
somewhere else.

01:09:49.727 --> 01:09:50.728
NO!

01:09:51.395 --> 01:09:53.939
The issue of gentrification
in a city like New York,

01:09:53.939 --> 01:09:56.400
there's kind of a sweet spot

01:09:56.734 --> 01:10:00.070
where things actually
get better for awhile.

01:10:00.070 --> 01:10:03.449
And then there's a point
where I'm overtaken

01:10:03.449 --> 01:10:07.203
by the thing that I helped
to bring to fore.

01:10:07.203 --> 01:10:11.498
I moved to DUMBO in about 1987?

01:10:11.498 --> 01:10:13.083
I don't like DUMBO now.

01:10:13.083 --> 01:10:15.920
Someone told me that when
the area you live in

01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:18.631
gets developed, that there's
a 10 year resentment phase

01:10:18.631 --> 01:10:19.590
you go through.

01:10:19.590 --> 01:10:23.886
Until you actually assimilate
what's happened.

01:10:23.886 --> 01:10:25.679
I'm still in the
resentment phase.

01:10:25.679 --> 01:10:29.099
Before it was like,
90 percent of people

01:10:29.099 --> 01:10:30.476
pursuing the lifestyle,

01:10:30.476 --> 01:10:31.769
no matter what it took.

01:10:31.769 --> 01:10:34.730
And now I think, most of
the people here are

01:10:34.730 --> 01:10:37.107
looking at the
New York lifestyle

01:10:37.107 --> 01:10:40.110
and they're not
really a part of it.

01:10:40.110 --> 01:10:42.112
New York for me
has a lot of memories.

01:10:42.112 --> 01:10:43.697
And I just didn't
want to be in a place

01:10:43.697 --> 01:10:45.866
that was kind of like living
in the back of your mind.

01:10:45.866 --> 01:10:47.743
I just wanted to do
something fresh.

01:10:48.077 --> 01:10:49.870
So I got out of dodge.

01:10:50.746 --> 01:10:52.081
This town, forget about it.

01:10:52.081 --> 01:10:54.792
When I moved here it
was a total affordable,

01:10:54.792 --> 01:10:57.670
working class town
with a little bit of danger.

01:10:57.670 --> 01:10:59.213
It was filled with artists and
musicians.

01:10:59.213 --> 01:11:02.633
And now I have a couple of
friends left here, but...

01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:05.636
I actually have a lot of
optimism in a sense.

01:11:05.636 --> 01:11:08.973
I don't know if that
optimism extends

01:11:08.973 --> 01:11:11.267
to Gowanus and I don't
know if that optimism

01:11:11.267 --> 01:11:13.560
can extend to me, personally?

01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:18.607
But I think basically a big
movement has just exploded

01:11:18.607 --> 01:11:22.528
from what was a very
small scene of indie rock,

01:11:22.528 --> 01:11:26.115
experimentalism, post punk
and counter culture

01:11:26.115 --> 01:11:29.243
and it's really kind of snow
balled into something big.

01:11:29.243 --> 01:11:32.746
I hope Martin continues
to run BC Studio.

01:11:32.746 --> 01:11:34.832
It's an important
thing for musicians.

01:11:34.832 --> 01:11:38.502
I think Martin's studio space is
pretty much one of a kind.

01:11:38.502 --> 01:11:40.879
You can do in it what
you will and

01:11:40.879 --> 01:11:44.133
I think it allows everyone
to have this kind of breath.

01:11:44.133 --> 01:11:46.260
There's this whole feeling
that you can kind of go

01:11:46.260 --> 01:11:49.346
there and experiment,
and you know,

01:11:49.346 --> 01:11:51.265
live there in a sense
for a little while.

01:11:51.265 --> 01:11:53.809
So you don't want to see
just the place,

01:11:53.809 --> 01:11:55.811
but you want to see
also the people

01:11:55.811 --> 01:11:59.648
continue to have a ground
to do that.

01:11:59.648 --> 01:12:03.569
It's a staple of a
kind of New York culture

01:12:03.569 --> 01:12:05.321
of sound and chaos,

01:12:05.321 --> 01:12:08.157
in the way that
clubs like CBGB's

01:12:08.157 --> 01:12:10.159
and Max's Kansas City...
it's like that.

01:12:10.159 --> 01:12:11.785
It has that kind of history.

01:12:12.244 --> 01:12:13.245
One of those historical places

01:12:13.245 --> 01:12:20.461
that can actually generate
new, inspiring material.