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This is La pensée unique,
third reel,

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we're at Charlie Hebdo
on March 8.

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It's International Women's Day,
March 8, 2000.

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An interview with Oncle Bernard.

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Technical spec is the same,
the sound is still at -12 dB.

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We're starting the time code
at four hours seven minutes.

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Production number: 70-293.

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The boom is on the left,
the mic on the right. Done!

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Okay, that's fine, go ahead.

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Number 17, we're rolling.

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We're rolling.

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If you could start by
introducing yourself,

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your name, your qualities...

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Okay, I'm Bernard Maris,
a.k.a. Oncle Bernard,

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I'm an editor at Charlie Hebdo
and a university professor.

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An economist by profession.

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Maybe we could start,

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and you could explain
how the herd mentality,

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has taken over all
imaginable discourses,

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especially in
neo-liberal thought.

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In France,
there are three levels:

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there's what we would call
the scholars,

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who are quite homogenous.

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Academia that teaches
free-market economics.

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Then you have the experts.

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All the people
who do consulting work,

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mostly for corporations,

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and who lend their expertise
to newspapers as well.

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And then there are
the journalists.

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So there are three levels
of idea dissemination.

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Academia is homogenous,
but there are a few exceptions

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that are marginalized

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and observed like
strange animals in the zoo

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but they have no impact
on real life

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or on current ideas or politics.

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And then, among the experts,
there's total homogeneity.

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They are simply there
to explain the benefits

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of a specific economic model.

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And then there are
the journalists,

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who act like a sounding
board between the two,

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between the scholars
and the experts.

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They also generally think,
with a few rare exceptions,

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that the neo-liberal model,

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the self-regulating market model
of supply and demand

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is the optimal model.

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That it's right for us.

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Can you give some examples
of the rhetoric used...

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I'll throw a phrase at you:
"confidence and transparency."

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Okay. So the economy is based
on unquantifiable concepts.

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That's the paradox: economics is
a quantitative science

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that uses concepts
that are not quantifiable.

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For example, and they are
two very good examples,

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take confidence
and transparency.

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They say the economy can't
function without confidence.

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But unfortunately,
confidence is indefinable.

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It's not tangible,
it's like the air we breathe.

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People can have good chemistry,
which is good for business.

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You don't deal
with someone you don't trust.

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We can misplace our trust,
but it's completely qualitative.

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There is no way
to quantify confidence.

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And yet, the strange thing is
that this pillar of the economy,

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we say that it's always
bounced back,

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we say, "Things will go well
when confidence is up."

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But confidence
is a sort of belief.

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It's a sort of superstition,
another type of faith,

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in fact, the words
have the same root,

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which reveals
the economy's true nature,

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the religious aspect of it.

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You have to trust
in what's happening.

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But it's not faith in heaven,
or the hereafter,

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instead, it's faith in what's
happening here, on earth.

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Transparency is even more
difficult to grasp,

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because a transparent economy
can't function.

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Like vampires who die
in the daylight.

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The economy needs
opacity to work.

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Think about it: if we knew
everything that everyone did,

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and everything they were
going to do, we'd be stuck.

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So people have to anticipate
and take on projects

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that they hope
no one knows about.

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They have to speculate,
which is founded on opacity.

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If there was
complete transparency,

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if I could foresee tomorrow,
I couldn't speculate.

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To speculate, I need
a degree of uncertainty.

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So the economy
is 98% uncertainty.

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We know a few things
for certain,

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we know that 10,000 people
will die on the road next year,

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so if I'm an insurer,
I can calculate my contracts.

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But the rest, what will happen,
what will be in demand,

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the mergers that will
take place, etcetera,

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all that is unknown.

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So not only is opacity
a sort of ether

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that makes the economy work,

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but businesses
organize their opacity.

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In the globalization revolution,

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companies take
given amounts of money

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that used to be
controlled by the state,

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by the taxman,
by the treasury,

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and they put them
in offshore havens,

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or they use
cross-accounting methods.

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They organize opacity

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so that no one knows
what's happening,

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where the money goes
or where it comes from.

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And that's extremely important!

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And yet, people like
Camdessus and Trichet

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call systematically
for more transparency.

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Can you explain a bit about...

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But those people, that's...

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They're like thieves
who have a code of honour,

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or like the mafia
who call for virtue,

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or like the pedophile priests
who preach discipline.

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It's exactly the same thing.

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Which means that
the more we know

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about how little we know...

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It's the case in Russia,
no one knows what's in Russia,

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we can only know 60 to 70%.

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It's the same for
the International Monetary Fund,

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even Camdessus didn't know
the worth of the IMF reserves.

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It was an American senator
who said,

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"You don't even know
how much you have."

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So I don't know how much
either of us has,

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but we need confidence
and transparency, right?

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So we have little bluffs,
we publish the severance pay

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of Mr. Eisner,
former CEO of Disney.

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And that's big news,
and we can say,

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"Some people make lots of money,
maybe one day you will, too."

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But that's just bits and pieces,

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and all the rest is hidden,
opaque.

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I don't know where the money
that Vivendi earns goes.

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I can't know, any more
than around 30 to 35%.

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I can't know how
the fiscal system

00:07:03.183 --> 00:07:07.787
of the Lyonnaise des eaux
or the Saur are organized.

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If the system were revealed,
it would no longer work.

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It could no longer work.

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Capitalism is made to function
on risk and speculation,

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and for that,
you need uncertainty,

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you need chance, the unknown,
inside information.

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The guy who makes a fortune
on the stock market,

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he's got inside information.

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If everyone could
predict the market

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no one would win.

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We'd stick together like this.

00:07:31.491 --> 00:07:33.733
So some people have to
know more than others.

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They might be frauds,
thieves or politicians who say,

00:07:37.137 --> 00:07:38.738
"I'll subsidize this company,"

00:07:38.818 --> 00:07:41.021
or "I'll privatize this one
in three months,

00:07:41.101 --> 00:07:42.622
"so come on, guys, buy it up."

00:07:42.702 --> 00:07:45.465
And that happens all the time.

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Or else you organize
information.

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That's another thing entirely.

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I just wanted to...
Is there a lot of film left?

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I don't think so.

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Because I have
a good question...

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I'll check.

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There's 100 feet.
Two minutes.

00:08:04.164 --> 00:08:06.526
Two minutes?
Can I add something?

00:08:06.646 --> 00:08:09.849
-Did you cut it?
-Yeah, we cut it.

00:08:10.890 --> 00:08:14.374
-We're rolling!
-Okay, 18.

00:08:14.494 --> 00:08:17.777
Still in terms of rhetoric,
can you explain a bit about

00:08:17.897 --> 00:08:23.343
how statistics can be used
to justify almost anything?

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For example, unemployment
in Great Britain.

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Yes, or in the United States.

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Firstly, politics are
euphemized with statistics.

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When we're fighting
over numbers,

00:08:34.754 --> 00:08:36.596
we're not discussing
actual problems.

00:08:36.676 --> 00:08:39.159
One guy says
unemployment is at 8.9%.

00:08:39.239 --> 00:08:41.161
"No, no, it's at 7.6%!"

00:08:41.241 --> 00:08:44.724
"But with seasonal variation,
it's actually 7.7%."

00:08:44.804 --> 00:08:48.808
"But no, if taken over
3 or 4 months, it's 7.8%."

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It's done, the debate is over,
we've dodged the problem,

00:08:51.851 --> 00:08:54.214
which is that
most of the unemployed

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are suffering and struggling
to survive.

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And then the statistics,

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for instance, there's
no unemployment in Holland,

00:09:03.263 --> 00:09:04.904
because so many
collect disability.

00:09:04.984 --> 00:09:06.586
There's no unemployment
in the US

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because 2% of the population
is in prison.

00:09:08.788 --> 00:09:11.231
Also, people are ashamed
to say they're unemployed,

00:09:11.311 --> 00:09:14.194
so a lot of people in the US
say they're consultants.

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There are a huge number
of consultants in the US.

00:09:17.317 --> 00:09:20.480
And in the US,
people give up looking for work

00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:22.282
a lot more than in France,

00:09:22.362 --> 00:09:24.043
so they don't appear
on the lists,

00:09:24.164 --> 00:09:25.965
or else they're
the working poor,

00:09:26.045 --> 00:09:29.489
which means that they're poor,
and should be retired

00:09:29.649 --> 00:09:33.733
but have to keep working
because they don't have enough.

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That's 20% of Americans,
only 5% in France.

00:09:36.376 --> 00:09:40.460
So unemployment statistics
are very malleable.

00:09:40.580 --> 00:09:42.102
In England, they changed

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the method of calculation
around 17 times in 20 years.

00:09:45.705 --> 00:09:47.147
We changed it twice in France

00:09:47.227 --> 00:09:49.269
and cut out 300,000
unemployed each time.

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It's a culture
of statistical manipulation,

00:09:51.631 --> 00:09:54.154
but the worst thing,
I think, is to say,

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"Let's just talk about numbers,
not about reality.”

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Is that too long?
You put in another reel.

00:10:05.044 --> 00:10:07.527
Happiness, for example.

00:10:07.687 --> 00:10:09.889
That's a real thing.
Wealth, value.

00:10:10.009 --> 00:10:13.012
We don't talk about wealth,
happiness, value,

00:10:13.092 --> 00:10:15.375
we say, "France is
flourishing this year!”

00:10:15.495 --> 00:10:21.181
"We predicted a 3% growth,
but it will be 3.7%, or 3.6%."

00:10:21.261 --> 00:10:23.823
And everyone is focused
on this number

00:10:23.903 --> 00:10:26.226
this abstraction,
this statistic,

00:10:26.306 --> 00:10:27.907
without knowing
what's behind it.

00:10:27.987 --> 00:10:30.069
And so people become
more and more...

00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:33.393
In France, we have more and more
work accidents, for example,

00:10:33.473 --> 00:10:35.195
and French workers are harassed.

00:10:35.275 --> 00:10:39.959
It's not the end of work,
it's never-ending work.

00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:45.124
That means that the manager,
the biggest idiot in society,

00:10:45.205 --> 00:10:48.648
goes home for the weekend,
and keeps checking his files,

00:10:48.728 --> 00:10:55.215
he watches shows hoping they
will "advance" him in his field.

00:10:55.295 --> 00:10:57.297
He never stops,
he can't unplug.

00:10:57.377 --> 00:10:59.098
You can't take the train
these days

00:10:59.179 --> 00:11:02.462
without people making calls
and typing on their computers.

00:11:02.542 --> 00:11:03.903
They can't unplug anymore.

00:11:03.983 --> 00:11:06.306
It's truly an era
of endless work.

00:11:06.386 --> 00:11:10.230
And they say, "There, 3.5%.
How fantastic, how great!"

00:11:13.473 --> 00:11:16.155
Reel 19 coming up.

00:11:17.717 --> 00:11:19.158
What's he doing there?

00:11:19.239 --> 00:11:22.322
-He's camping in it.
-His tent over there.

00:11:22.402 --> 00:11:26.286
He's changing the film reel.

00:11:26.326 --> 00:11:28.368
Isn't this an old camera?

00:11:28.448 --> 00:11:30.129
You're using film?

00:11:30.210 --> 00:11:32.412
-Yeah, it's film.
-This isn't television here!

00:11:32.492 --> 00:11:37.016
-But it's not old!
-It's not an old camera?

00:11:37.096 --> 00:11:41.901
-No, but the cameraman is old.
-The cameraman is old.

00:11:42.342 --> 00:11:44.504
A French company
makes these cameras.

00:11:44.544 --> 00:11:46.145
Yeah?

00:11:46.266 --> 00:11:49.789
You might know the company,
Aaton. No?

00:11:49.869 --> 00:11:52.151
They come from Grenoble.

00:11:52.232 --> 00:11:55.114
-How's the camping going?
-Yeah, it's coming along...

00:11:55.194 --> 00:11:57.196
Okay.

00:11:57.277 --> 00:12:00.920
-Reel 19 starting up...
-We're rolling.

00:12:01.641 --> 00:12:07.567
If we could talk about economics
as a pure science,

00:12:08.448 --> 00:12:11.651
able to predict
everything in advance...

00:12:12.252 --> 00:12:15.014
There's Mr. Minc,
your dear friend,

00:12:15.094 --> 00:12:19.058
who talks about the universal
laws of economic gravitation.

00:12:19.138 --> 00:12:21.060
Well, you know the drill...

00:12:21.180 --> 00:12:27.907
Economic science
is really a big problem,

00:12:27.987 --> 00:12:31.070
exactly because it appears
to be a science.

00:12:31.190 --> 00:12:36.836
It has a scientific structure
with a Nobel Prize at the top,

00:12:36.916 --> 00:12:39.799
it has a mathematical language,
just like physics,

00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:42.362
more complicated
than physics sometimes.

00:12:42.442 --> 00:12:46.326
So it's very formalized
with lots of equations,

00:12:46.406 --> 00:12:52.612
it seems like a hard science,
just like physics or biology.

00:12:52.692 --> 00:12:56.856
But... do you want me to stop?
Are they too loud?

00:12:56.936 --> 00:12:57.977
No, it's okay.

00:12:58.057 --> 00:13:03.303
But in reality what is behind
all these equations?

00:13:03.383 --> 00:13:05.905
The equations tell a story
as old as Adam Smith,

00:13:05.985 --> 00:13:08.708
of supply and demand,
self-regulating markets,

00:13:08.828 --> 00:13:11.511
laissez-faire
and all will be well.

00:13:11.591 --> 00:13:13.833
Man is selfish,
and the more that clashes

00:13:13.913 --> 00:13:17.477
with the selfishness of others,
the happier humanity will be,

00:13:17.557 --> 00:13:18.878
forever and ever, amen.

00:13:18.958 --> 00:13:22.882
Because the economy
is about eternity, as well.

00:13:26.045 --> 00:13:29.088
There are exceptions in economy,
like Keynes, Marx, Schumpeter,

00:13:29.168 --> 00:13:32.732
but the strange thing is that
the dominant body of knowledge,

00:13:32.852 --> 00:13:35.174
and economics students
know this,

00:13:35.254 --> 00:13:38.938
built a science that completely
ignores two things.

00:13:39.018 --> 00:13:41.701
It's very formalized,
but ignores two things,

00:13:41.821 --> 00:13:45.745
and they are time, they consider
the future as fixed,

00:13:45.905 --> 00:13:48.868
and money.

00:13:48.948 --> 00:13:50.390
They have made these theories

00:13:50.470 --> 00:13:52.352
that leave money aside,

00:13:52.432 --> 00:13:55.755
which is pretty extraordinary,
to build an economic theory

00:13:55.875 --> 00:13:58.838
that disregards
both money and time.

00:13:58.918 --> 00:14:01.841
Economists like Keynes
tried to reintroduce...

00:14:01.921 --> 00:14:04.644
But the economy is there
to amuse professors,

00:14:04.724 --> 00:14:07.607
and that's just fine,
it can be playful.

00:14:07.687 --> 00:14:10.650
They build their little models
and theories.

00:14:10.730 --> 00:14:12.251
I don't reproach them.

00:14:12.331 --> 00:14:15.975
It's better than making
holes in the ozone layer.

00:14:16.055 --> 00:14:20.139
But the problem is that
those people are the authority,

00:14:20.219 --> 00:14:24.183
they act as intellectual armour,

00:14:24.263 --> 00:14:30.550
as a safeguard for the experts,
who are totally incompetent.

00:14:30.630 --> 00:14:33.593
And I would place Camdessus
at the head of these bunglers.

00:14:33.673 --> 00:14:36.315
I would definitely
not include Stiglitz,

00:14:36.436 --> 00:14:39.238
vice president
of the World Bank,

00:14:39.318 --> 00:14:41.200
he is an extremely
competent economist,

00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:43.042
but Camdessus, Trichet,

00:14:43.162 --> 00:14:46.606
people like that
who are politicians in disguise,

00:14:46.686 --> 00:14:49.288
I mean politicians
disguised as experts,

00:14:49.368 --> 00:14:51.210
who quibble all day long

00:14:51.290 --> 00:14:54.894
about wage suppression,
sacrifices, flexibility,

00:14:54.934 --> 00:14:57.336
rising inflation, etcetera.

00:14:57.417 --> 00:14:59.459
So this enormous
technocratic shield

00:14:59.539 --> 00:15:02.982
exists so people never see
what's behind the economy.

00:15:03.062 --> 00:15:06.345
ATTAC has been
so successful in France

00:15:06.385 --> 00:15:08.508
because, finally,
people are trying to see

00:15:08.588 --> 00:15:10.430
what's on the other side
of the wall.

00:15:10.510 --> 00:15:12.632
"They're talking about
the financial markets?

00:15:12.752 --> 00:15:15.034
"They say it's too complex
for us?

00:15:15.114 --> 00:15:17.557
"Let's try to have a look."

00:15:17.637 --> 00:15:20.480
What else can I say
about the science?

00:15:22.642 --> 00:15:27.206
About the fact that
it's become indisputable...

00:15:27.286 --> 00:15:29.328
But who can understand
the economy?

00:15:29.408 --> 00:15:35.695
Really, I challenge even
a really good physicist today,

00:15:35.775 --> 00:15:39.098
I challenge any good physicist
to jump into economics.

00:15:39.178 --> 00:15:41.461
He would have to make
a huge investment,

00:15:41.541 --> 00:15:43.382
since economists have
their own jargon

00:15:43.503 --> 00:15:45.505
and they've formalized
it to the utmost.

00:15:45.585 --> 00:15:47.867
They've repeated
what happened in casuistry,

00:15:47.947 --> 00:15:49.509
way back with the Jesuits.

00:15:49.589 --> 00:15:52.271
Only a Jesuit could
understand how casuistry worked.

00:15:52.351 --> 00:15:54.954
It was an internal thing,

00:15:55.074 --> 00:15:59.158
it was full of axiology
and highly developed logic...

00:15:59.238 --> 00:16:01.120
And what could the people do

00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.043
to fight against
this dogmatic religious power?

00:16:04.123 --> 00:16:05.885
They had to hit
from the outside.

00:16:06.005 --> 00:16:08.447
As Pascal did in his
Provincial Letters.

00:16:08.528 --> 00:16:11.891
He didn't try to get into it,
he couldn't.

00:16:12.011 --> 00:16:12.972
He went from the outside,
and he said,

00:16:14.053 --> 00:16:16.696
"This is who the casuists are."

00:16:16.776 --> 00:16:19.058
Would you then say, for example,

00:16:19.138 --> 00:16:21.981
that the representatives
and ministers

00:16:22.061 --> 00:16:24.263
don't understand the economy?

00:16:24.343 --> 00:16:25.384
I think so.

00:16:25.464 --> 00:16:30.349
I think that, outside of
the simplest concepts

00:16:30.429 --> 00:16:33.272
like "don't spend more
than you have,"

00:16:33.352 --> 00:16:36.716
and "be careful
with your budget..."

00:16:39.238 --> 00:16:42.602
What other simple concepts
have they grasped?

00:16:42.682 --> 00:16:45.885
"Give a little money to everyone
or people will get upset."

00:16:46.005 --> 00:16:48.568
I think that's about
as far as they got.

00:16:48.648 --> 00:16:51.410
But they don't have
specific ideas

00:16:51.531 --> 00:16:53.292
about what capitalism is.

00:16:53.412 --> 00:16:54.854
Few have thought about it.

00:16:54.934 --> 00:16:57.617
What is value and
where does it come from?

00:16:57.697 --> 00:16:59.779
What is wealth?
What is the new economy?

00:16:59.859 --> 00:17:01.300
It's not often considered.

00:17:01.380 --> 00:17:04.664
And they see it as
a kind of paradise,

00:17:04.744 --> 00:17:06.265
which is completely ridiculous.

00:17:06.345 --> 00:17:09.789
No, I think that
many politicians...

00:17:09.869 --> 00:17:12.071
Well, it's not their problem.

00:17:12.151 --> 00:17:15.555
Their problem is to find experts
to muzzle their opponents.

00:17:15.635 --> 00:17:17.516
When people talk
about the economy,

00:17:17.597 --> 00:17:19.518
they say,
"I don't understand a thing!"

00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:21.641
No one says,
"You're an economist?

00:17:21.721 --> 00:17:24.403
"You'll bore me to tears.
I don't understand a thing.

00:17:24.483 --> 00:17:25.765
"You win.”

00:17:25.845 --> 00:17:31.490
And that sort of thing,
it places me in a good position.

00:17:32.732 --> 00:17:35.975
I think people are more
interested in biology

00:17:36.095 --> 00:17:38.698
or physics or medicine
than in economics,

00:17:38.778 --> 00:17:40.580
because it's too complicated.

00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:42.461
You can try
to understand medicine,

00:17:42.541 --> 00:17:45.224
even the AIDS epidemic,
you can see how it happens,

00:17:45.264 --> 00:17:47.827
the envelope and the enzymes
and all that.

00:17:47.907 --> 00:17:50.189
But economics,
no way, too complicated.

00:17:50.269 --> 00:17:53.913
And the goal of the economist
is that it remains inexplicable.

00:17:53.993 --> 00:17:56.115
There's power in the jargon.

00:17:56.195 --> 00:17:58.477
-And how do...
-Do you want to stop for a bit?

00:17:58.557 --> 00:18:00.880
-Yes, please.
-Wait a second.

00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.364
Luz, we're having a problem
with the sound, can you...

00:18:06.285 --> 00:18:08.447
Reel 20 on its way.

00:18:08.527 --> 00:18:09.969
Rolling.

00:18:11.010 --> 00:18:14.774
Maybe you could finish up
by explaining

00:18:14.854 --> 00:18:19.699
a bit about how power
is used by the experts...

00:18:19.779 --> 00:18:22.942
It's a terrorism of words.

00:18:23.102 --> 00:18:26.425
Basically saying, "You
don't understand, so shut up."

00:18:26.505 --> 00:18:28.467
And watch out...

00:18:28.587 --> 00:18:31.150
That's even the byline
on the left.

00:18:31.270 --> 00:18:36.155
Don't believe that it's just
right-wingers who say that.

00:18:36.355 --> 00:18:39.518
So that's it.

00:18:39.598 --> 00:18:41.400
It's terrorism of words.

00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.283
It's deliberately making
economics incomprehensible.

00:18:44.363 --> 00:18:48.007
It's true that people who have
invested 10, 15, 20 years

00:18:48.127 --> 00:18:50.850
and have gained
a little bit of power

00:18:50.930 --> 00:18:52.972
they're like the doctor
in Molière

00:18:53.052 --> 00:18:55.655
who spoke Latin
so no one would understand.

00:18:55.735 --> 00:18:58.537
He was spouting nonsense,
but he said it in Latin...

00:18:58.617 --> 00:19:00.419
Here they're spouting nonsense,

00:19:00.499 --> 00:19:04.583
but it's in maths or statistics,
so no one understands a thing.

00:19:04.664 --> 00:19:06.946
Can you also talk a bit about

00:19:07.026 --> 00:19:10.189
how economics
is always presented

00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:13.753
not as an ideology,
not as a political tool,

00:19:13.833 --> 00:19:15.274
but rather as fact?

00:19:15.354 --> 00:19:18.397
Of course. And this is
extremely important.

00:19:18.517 --> 00:19:20.039
The force of economics

00:19:20.199 --> 00:19:22.762
is that is seems like
an obvious, neutral truth.

00:19:22.842 --> 00:19:26.485
A neutral discourse about
neither good nor evil,

00:19:26.605 --> 00:19:30.770
that is scientific, with all
the neutrality of science,

00:19:30.850 --> 00:19:33.532
that comes across as normal.

00:19:33.652 --> 00:19:38.337
Suppressing wages to cut
inflation is obvious and normal.

00:19:38.457 --> 00:19:40.659
It's obvious that
we can't have inflation.

00:19:40.780 --> 00:19:45.504
Even though avoiding inflation
generates phenomenal inequality,

00:19:45.624 --> 00:19:48.107
leads people into destitution,

00:19:48.267 --> 00:19:51.070
creates disparities
between north and south,

00:19:51.190 --> 00:19:54.914
creates a caste of elite
taking up the foreground,

00:19:55.034 --> 00:19:58.357
eradicates state power,
hurts social security.

00:19:58.477 --> 00:20:02.121
Despite all this,
there is but one obvious truth.

00:20:02.281 --> 00:20:05.725
"You can't possibly
be pro-inflation?"

00:20:05.845 --> 00:20:08.367
But if we look at truth
and history,

00:20:08.487 --> 00:20:10.730
we see that those rare times

00:20:10.850 --> 00:20:14.013
when capital was muzzled,
as in the Glorious Thirty,

00:20:14.133 --> 00:20:18.377
were inflationary periods
when wages could increase,

00:20:18.497 --> 00:20:22.101
because people who borrowed
for houses and the like,

00:20:22.221 --> 00:20:27.386
managed to pay off debt quickly
thanks to inflation.

00:20:27.506 --> 00:20:29.989
Now, it's the opposite,
an economy of the elite.

00:20:30.109 --> 00:20:35.074
You could ask, "Do you want
the rich to run the world?"

00:20:35.154 --> 00:20:39.959
Instead of, "Surely,
you must be against inflation?"

00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:46.886
Could you talk about the
infamous invisible hand theory?

00:20:47.006 --> 00:20:50.009
The invisible hand theory
is quite extraordinary.

00:20:50.129 --> 00:20:54.533
First, it assumes
that man is bad.

00:20:54.653 --> 00:20:58.818
It's quite realistic.
It says, we'll work with that.

00:20:58.938 --> 00:21:03.382
People are self-centred, greedy,
mean and self-interested.

00:21:03.502 --> 00:21:05.464
They dislike
collective thinking.

00:21:05.584 --> 00:21:09.308
They're unsupportive,
anti-social and narcissistic.

00:21:09.428 --> 00:21:12.671
Let's make this flaw

00:21:12.751 --> 00:21:19.158
into an advantage
for the collective and society.

00:21:19.318 --> 00:21:22.361
Let them go, and their
self-centred antagonism

00:21:22.441 --> 00:21:24.603
will give rise to
public happiness.

00:21:24.723 --> 00:21:26.485
That's the invisible hand.

00:21:26.525 --> 00:21:30.009
The idea is that
every time someone intervenes

00:21:30.129 --> 00:21:35.094
and tries to control
this selfish antagonism,

00:21:35.174 --> 00:21:38.417
the disruption of the system
makes it worse.

00:21:38.537 --> 00:21:41.180
One of the great
reactionary theses

00:21:41.340 --> 00:21:43.662
is the perversity thesis.

00:21:43.782 --> 00:21:46.625
It's Hirschman's thesis,
and it's great.

00:21:46.705 --> 00:21:49.909
Reactionary right-wingers

00:21:49.989 --> 00:21:53.913
have always accused leftists
of causing evil by doing good.

00:21:54.033 --> 00:21:56.475
You want to do good,
to help the poor,

00:21:56.595 --> 00:21:58.197
you'll create a lot of poverty.

00:21:58.317 --> 00:22:01.720
The Economist published
an amazing picture

00:22:01.841 --> 00:22:04.603
after the Seattle summit.

00:22:04.723 --> 00:22:09.208
It showed starving
Third World African children,

00:22:09.328 --> 00:22:13.853
with the caption, "Victims
of the Seattle failure."

00:22:13.973 --> 00:22:18.777
That is vile!
Worse than the Benetton ads.

00:22:18.898 --> 00:22:22.902
The message was, "You played
around at hindering the WTO.

00:22:23.022 --> 00:22:27.907
"And what happened? You created
poor, unhappy, starving people."

00:22:28.027 --> 00:22:34.033
Whereas this system creates
the poor, starving, unhappy.

00:22:34.153 --> 00:22:36.795
The invisible hand says,
"laissez-faire".

00:22:36.916 --> 00:22:39.678
You can't fix it.
Man is evil, bad.

00:22:39.758 --> 00:22:42.001
The only thing that can stop
one man's evil

00:22:42.121 --> 00:22:43.362
is another man's evil.

00:22:44.443 --> 00:22:46.926
Put two bad guys together,
it balances out.

00:22:46.966 --> 00:22:49.208
Laissez-faire
and all will be well.

00:22:49.288 --> 00:22:52.571
Can you explain a bit
about why the invisible hand

00:22:52.651 --> 00:22:55.174
doesn't work in real life?

00:22:55.254 --> 00:22:56.735
Why doesn't it work?

00:22:56.815 --> 00:23:01.941
For the invisible hand to work,

00:23:02.021 --> 00:23:05.784
people have to be completely
separate from each other,

00:23:05.864 --> 00:23:08.307
totally divided and independent.

00:23:08.427 --> 00:23:10.990
The reel is done,
we'll come back to this...

00:23:11.070 --> 00:23:12.711
It's a very
important question...

00:23:12.791 --> 00:23:15.754
I don't know, it's a bit...

00:23:15.834 --> 00:23:19.398
What I have to say, as well,

00:23:19.478 --> 00:23:21.720
is that the
right-wing economists

00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:24.403
have known this for 20 years.

00:23:24.483 --> 00:23:28.127
So someone who talks about
the invisible hand theory

00:23:28.207 --> 00:23:30.689
is either a swindler
or an idiot.

00:23:30.769 --> 00:23:35.214
There are no more liberal
economists worthy of the name

00:23:35.294 --> 00:23:39.458
that can honestly say that
the invisible hand theory works.

00:23:39.538 --> 00:23:40.579
Okay?

00:23:40.659 --> 00:23:43.022
But if I forget to say it,
remind me, all right?

00:23:43.102 --> 00:23:48.347
Because that's super important.
You're talking to economists...

00:23:48.427 --> 00:23:50.950
Later, we'll talk about Ricardo,

00:23:51.030 --> 00:23:53.312
Two examples keep coming up...

00:23:53.432 --> 00:23:55.274
-Did you study economics? No?
-No...

00:23:55.354 --> 00:23:58.958
-But you understand this?
-Yes, of course.

00:23:59.078 --> 00:24:01.560
Reel 21 coming up.

00:24:07.806 --> 00:24:10.449
It's on.

00:24:10.529 --> 00:24:11.810
We're rolling.

00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:15.054
Okay, let's get back
to the invisible hand.

00:24:15.174 --> 00:24:16.855
Why doesn't it work?

00:24:16.935 --> 00:24:19.338
Why doesn't it work?
For it to work...

00:24:19.458 --> 00:24:23.142
Economists have been studying
the invisible hand since 1776.

00:24:23.222 --> 00:24:27.786
So they've been studying
this problem for quite a while.

00:24:29.668 --> 00:24:34.593
For it to work, men have
to be separate and autonomous.

00:24:34.673 --> 00:24:37.316
No relationships,
no collectives,

00:24:37.396 --> 00:24:42.961
only their own rationality,
separate from that of others.

00:24:43.042 --> 00:24:45.084
It's a theory
of absolute individualism.

00:24:45.164 --> 00:24:46.645
That's the first condition.

00:24:46.725 --> 00:24:49.168
The second condition
is perfect information.

00:24:49.248 --> 00:24:54.333
Omniscience about future events
for centuries to come...

00:24:55.894 --> 00:24:59.658
That's the second condition.
Now, what's the third...

00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:04.223
Perfect information,

00:25:04.303 --> 00:25:07.386
and thirdly,
there can't be any uncertainty.

00:25:07.506 --> 00:25:09.868
No storms, no randomness,

00:25:09.948 --> 00:25:11.710
no chance of Ariane
breaking down

00:25:11.830 --> 00:25:16.355
on the 25th flight
and not the third.

00:25:16.435 --> 00:25:18.357
The world must be
without chance,

00:25:18.437 --> 00:25:22.641
tantamount to saying
you need perfect foresight.

00:25:22.721 --> 00:25:26.085
Under these conditions,

00:25:26.165 --> 00:25:30.609
the invisible hand might work,
but it's not even sure.

00:25:30.689 --> 00:25:33.612
What you have to know,
and it's extremely important,

00:25:33.652 --> 00:25:37.856
is that liberal economists,
the greatest, most rigid

00:25:37.936 --> 00:25:41.340
most prestigious,
the Nobel winners,

00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:46.985
what they have shown
for about 25 years,

00:25:47.106 --> 00:25:51.870
is that the invisible hand
theory doesn't work.

00:25:51.990 --> 00:25:53.952
It's bullshit.

00:25:54.073 --> 00:25:57.956
They've shown it.
Many suspected as much.

00:25:58.036 --> 00:26:00.959
Keynes suspected it.
He thought that

00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:05.204
the idea of equilibrium
did not apply to the economy.

00:26:05.324 --> 00:26:10.169
That the economy
was fundamentally chaotic.

00:26:10.289 --> 00:26:13.051
But the pure, hard,
mean economists,

00:26:13.132 --> 00:26:16.054
the most prestigious
free-market economists

00:26:16.135 --> 00:26:20.499
draped in the prestige
of the purest science,

00:26:20.659 --> 00:26:24.423
starting with Nobel winner
Gérard Debreu,

00:26:24.503 --> 00:26:26.945
said 25 years ago
that it doesn't work.

00:26:27.065 --> 00:26:31.870
Markets don't move toward
equilibrium or efficiency.

00:26:31.950 --> 00:26:33.592
Remember those two things.

00:26:33.712 --> 00:26:35.594
Markets don't move
toward equilibrium,

00:26:35.714 --> 00:26:38.157
so the law of supply
and demand means nothing.

00:26:38.237 --> 00:26:39.958
And they're not efficient.

00:26:40.038 --> 00:26:45.204
So the laissez-faire approach
is the worst solution.

00:26:45.444 --> 00:26:48.247
Thank you, "liberal" gentlemen.
Kind of you to say so.

00:26:48.327 --> 00:26:50.689
We thought as much,
but thanks for saying so.

00:26:50.809 --> 00:26:53.612
Today, anyone who talks about
the invisible hand,

00:26:53.692 --> 00:26:56.815
supply and demand, or market
equilibrium and efficiency

00:26:56.895 --> 00:26:59.778
is either a crook,
which is not uncommon,

00:26:59.858 --> 00:27:02.421
or else is hiding his eyes,
which also happens,

00:27:02.501 --> 00:27:04.102
someone who's willfully blind.

00:27:04.143 --> 00:27:05.944
He's what Sartre called
a bastard:

00:27:06.024 --> 00:27:07.786
someone who knows
but stays silent.

00:27:07.866 --> 00:27:11.350
Or else he's incompetent.
Those exist too.

00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:14.072
Let's talk now about
David Ricardo's

00:27:14.153 --> 00:27:17.035
theory of comparative advantage.

00:27:17.115 --> 00:27:18.757
Maybe you could explain
what it is

00:27:18.837 --> 00:27:20.839
and then talk about
why it doesn't work.

00:27:20.919 --> 00:27:23.442
Well, it's for the same
reasons that I just said.

00:27:23.562 --> 00:27:25.484
Comparative advantage

00:27:25.644 --> 00:27:28.167
is a theory
of international specialization.

00:27:28.247 --> 00:27:33.452
Basically, it states that
nations must specialize

00:27:33.532 --> 00:27:36.415
according to their
comparative advantages.

00:27:36.495 --> 00:27:38.537
It's a purely static theory,

00:27:38.577 --> 00:27:41.540
in which you have a box,
and the pawns are shifted around

00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:43.382
but we never question
the box's form

00:27:43.462 --> 00:27:48.267
or whether the box evolves
with the pawn configuration.

00:27:48.347 --> 00:27:53.472
The theory is purely immediate.
So, why doesn't it work?

00:27:53.552 --> 00:27:58.597
Because international trade
isn't just neutral exchange,

00:27:58.757 --> 00:28:05.043
where the kindly Natives trade
with the charming conquistadors.

00:28:05.123 --> 00:28:07.726
It doesn't work like that
and it never did.

00:28:07.806 --> 00:28:10.209
The conquistadors kill everyone.

00:28:10.329 --> 00:28:14.373
Then trade comes in
as phase two of pacification.

00:28:14.453 --> 00:28:16.855
But in international trade,

00:28:16.935 --> 00:28:19.218
which is the matrix
of business...

00:28:19.298 --> 00:28:21.220
And that's another
preconceived notion.

00:28:21.300 --> 00:28:23.462
Trade doesn't start
between villages,

00:28:23.542 --> 00:28:26.104
then cities, then regions,
then nations,

00:28:26.184 --> 00:28:28.106
then internationally.

00:28:28.186 --> 00:28:31.350
It never worked that way.
Quite the contrary.

00:28:31.430 --> 00:28:33.712
International business
follows the military.

00:28:34.793 --> 00:28:37.075
It follows predation.

00:28:37.155 --> 00:28:42.200
Then comes an inward
pacification process.

00:28:42.321 --> 00:28:47.286
Your book discusses
Montesquieu's "gentle commerce"

00:28:47.366 --> 00:28:48.647
Oh, yes.

00:28:48.767 --> 00:28:50.889
Can you talk a bit about how,
historically...

00:28:50.969 --> 00:28:53.732
But the idea of gentle commerce
is to say,

00:28:53.852 --> 00:28:56.975
"Make trade, not war."

00:28:57.055 --> 00:29:00.178
But it's never worked that way.

00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:05.984
Even now, I'd be curious to see
how international trade works,

00:29:06.064 --> 00:29:08.747
but I'm utterly convinced
that it's always the military

00:29:09.828 --> 00:29:12.911
that sparks spending and growth
in economies.

00:29:12.991 --> 00:29:14.793
Look at the US, for example.

00:29:14.873 --> 00:29:17.676
Each and every American
president was voted in

00:29:17.796 --> 00:29:21.199
by proposing an increase
in military spending.

00:29:21.320 --> 00:29:23.562
Just look at Bush's platform,
the proposed hike

00:29:23.642 --> 00:29:24.843
in military spending.

00:29:24.923 --> 00:29:28.166
There's first and foremost
a predatory aspect,

00:29:28.246 --> 00:29:30.529
a military aspect
that comes before trade.

00:29:30.649 --> 00:29:33.292
And as for trade,
it's not complicated.

00:29:33.372 --> 00:29:35.454
It's the fox set free
in the henhouse.

00:29:35.534 --> 00:29:38.857
The powerful impose
their will on the weak,

00:29:38.937 --> 00:29:40.379
that's what trade is.

00:29:40.459 --> 00:29:42.461
What can I trade?

00:29:42.541 --> 00:29:44.503
What is the job market
for that matter?

00:29:44.583 --> 00:29:46.465
What am I compared
to Bill Gates?

00:29:46.545 --> 00:29:49.267
Do I choose my boss,
or does the boss choose me?

00:29:49.348 --> 00:29:51.710
Don't make me laugh.

00:29:51.950 --> 00:29:58.917
What about the common saying
that inequality creates wealth?

00:29:58.997 --> 00:30:03.642
Or maybe "The greater our
equality, the less our wealth"?

00:30:03.722 --> 00:30:06.204
But that's a very
neo-liberal idea,

00:30:06.284 --> 00:30:10.288
that we have to stop people
from getting lazy.

00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:12.130
We have to stimulate them.

00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:14.333
And to stimulate them,
we need inequality

00:30:14.413 --> 00:30:19.297
because if everyone is equal,
no one will be stimulated!

00:30:19.378 --> 00:30:24.102
So in order to get people
very, very stimulated,

00:30:24.182 --> 00:30:27.506
they have to see these
outrageously fabulous things

00:30:27.586 --> 00:30:30.989
that it'll take
four centuries to buy

00:30:31.069 --> 00:30:33.992
with their salary vs.
the salary of Disney's CEO.

00:30:34.072 --> 00:30:36.835
And that's just fine,
it will stimulate them.

00:30:36.915 --> 00:30:38.236
But if you help people,

00:30:38.316 --> 00:30:41.520
if you give them subsidies,
welfare, grants,

00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:44.643
they'll turn lazy,
and so you shouldn't.

00:30:44.763 --> 00:30:47.686
So inequality
is a driving force.

00:30:47.726 --> 00:30:50.008
You can see it with men
and women.

00:30:50.088 --> 00:30:53.372
For women to become better,
you have to suppose

00:30:53.452 --> 00:30:55.654
that women's salaries
are half as much,

00:30:55.734 --> 00:30:56.975
and they'll get better.

00:30:57.055 --> 00:30:58.977
Or to get men working better,

00:30:59.057 --> 00:31:01.099
start paying women
twice as much.

00:31:01.179 --> 00:31:03.862
That's another idea
justifying inequality.

00:31:03.942 --> 00:31:07.946
I think it’s become
wrong to show inequality.

00:31:08.026 --> 00:31:11.870
The fact that we publish,

00:31:11.950 --> 00:31:18.877
like a lottery winner,
like hard-cash miracles,

00:31:18.997 --> 00:31:22.521
the severance packages
of CEOs.

00:31:23.001 --> 00:31:26.044
It's mind-boggling
seeing the CEO of Coca-Cola

00:31:26.124 --> 00:31:31.289
get 900 million francs
just for being fired,

00:31:31.369 --> 00:31:34.132
900 million francs just
for being sacked.

00:31:34.252 --> 00:31:37.656
It's such a huge amount
as to be inconceivable.

00:31:37.736 --> 00:31:41.500
But it has a magical effect
on the population.

00:31:41.580 --> 00:31:45.223
They say, "Look at these stars,
they're so talented..."

00:31:45.343 --> 00:31:48.627
They're not talented,
they took someone else’s money.

00:31:48.707 --> 00:31:52.591
It's not like being a dancer
or a tennis player or whatever.

00:31:52.671 --> 00:31:55.273
And another figure of speech,

00:31:55.353 --> 00:31:58.917
"The smaller the state,
the greater the freedom."

00:31:59.037 --> 00:32:01.600
Or maybe "More competition means
more freedom."

00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:02.801
No, that's wrong.

00:32:06.044 --> 00:32:11.850
The law liberates.

00:32:11.970 --> 00:32:14.813
You must understand that norms
and laws are freeing.

00:32:14.933 --> 00:32:16.334
It's a paradox of life,

00:32:16.414 --> 00:32:19.778
but in the absence of laws,
the mafia moves in.

00:32:19.858 --> 00:32:21.620
And by mafia I mean private law.

00:32:21.700 --> 00:32:24.503
I mean privilege,
in the etymological sense.

00:32:24.583 --> 00:32:27.586
If we want to abolish privilege,
we need public laws.

00:32:27.666 --> 00:32:33.992
That's why privileged people
are against public laws.

00:32:34.593 --> 00:32:38.517
And what we call social norms,
the right to work, etcetera,

00:32:38.597 --> 00:32:41.480
are founded in
collective action.

00:32:41.560 --> 00:32:44.763
That is, from the State that,
for once in its life,

00:32:44.843 --> 00:32:51.049
a rare occurrence, but it
happened from 1880 to 1950,

00:32:51.129 --> 00:32:53.692
it took the side of the weak.

00:32:53.772 --> 00:32:56.735
It happens. And why?
Because the weak were stronger.

00:32:56.815 --> 00:32:57.856
Not for long.

00:32:57.976 --> 00:33:00.699
But the State is always
on the side of the strong.

00:33:00.819 --> 00:33:03.702
So for a short time,
it succeeded...

00:33:03.782 --> 00:33:06.745
We forced it to do
what was required.

00:33:06.825 --> 00:33:10.108
Yesterday or the day before
on Capital, a thing about Davos.

00:33:10.188 --> 00:33:12.831
Amazing! Really,
I'd never seen anything like it.

00:33:12.911 --> 00:33:15.794
A report on Davos that showed
how things worked and all that.

00:33:15.874 --> 00:33:19.077
It was so instructive!
Excellent!

00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.803
-Did you keep the tape?
-No, I stumbled on it by chance.

00:33:24.883 --> 00:33:26.685
We can try to go next time.

00:33:26.765 --> 00:33:30.168
We could try. We could
get media accreditation.

00:33:30.248 --> 00:33:33.692
Yes.

00:33:35.614 --> 00:33:38.216
Let's not forget.
We'll do it right away.

00:33:38.296 --> 00:33:40.258
Twenty-two!

00:33:40.378 --> 00:33:42.661
We're not stopping.

00:33:44.182 --> 00:33:50.148
If we can go back to liberalism,
liberty and fear...

00:33:50.228 --> 00:33:55.714
I'm struck by...

00:33:56.635 --> 00:33:59.397
Let's admit that unemployment
fell a little in the US,

00:33:59.477 --> 00:34:02.120
probably much less
than the Americans say it did.

00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:06.565
But the thing that is surprising
American leaders,

00:34:06.645 --> 00:34:12.971
like Greenspan and
Steve Case, CEO of Intel,

00:34:13.091 --> 00:34:16.134
is the fear which the Americans
have internalized.

00:34:16.214 --> 00:34:20.739
They are so afraid,
Case even talks about paranoia,

00:34:20.819 --> 00:34:24.502
they are so obsessed
by the thought of being fired,

00:34:24.583 --> 00:34:26.785
and they're so caught up
in the system,

00:34:26.865 --> 00:34:29.347
of "What if I get let go?”

00:34:29.427 --> 00:34:31.549
that they no longer
make any demands.

00:34:31.630 --> 00:34:32.951
They don't demand anything!

00:34:33.071 --> 00:34:36.675
They've become fearful,
like indentured servants,

00:34:36.755 --> 00:34:39.437
they've succeeded
in the difficult task

00:34:39.557 --> 00:34:42.120
of becoming their own censors.

00:34:42.200 --> 00:34:44.202
They self-mutilate, self-censor,

00:34:44.322 --> 00:34:46.204
tell themselves
to watch their step.

00:34:46.324 --> 00:34:48.286
And it has
extraordinary results.

00:34:48.366 --> 00:34:51.209
Harassment at work,
workplace denunciations,

00:34:51.289 --> 00:34:55.173
and more concretely,
a sort of neo-Stakhanovism

00:34:55.253 --> 00:34:58.937
leading to more workplace
accidents in the US.

00:34:59.017 --> 00:35:00.619
But especially the fear.

00:35:00.699 --> 00:35:03.982
It's like the Cheshire Cat
in Alice in Wonderland,

00:35:04.142 --> 00:35:06.144
the cat is gone,
but the smile remains.

00:35:06.224 --> 00:35:09.788
Here, unemployment is gone,
but the fear of it remains.

00:35:09.868 --> 00:35:12.270
It's amazing! Extraordinary!

00:35:12.350 --> 00:35:14.793
But unemployment is actually
quite high in the US.

00:35:14.873 --> 00:35:16.114
Of course!

00:35:16.194 --> 00:35:22.921
You add the 2% in prison,
the consultants are another 2%,

00:35:23.001 --> 00:35:26.324
2% for jobs that you only see
in under-developed nations,

00:35:26.404 --> 00:35:28.166
that no longer exist in France,

00:35:28.246 --> 00:35:31.890
the low-paid servers in the US,
the guys who run the elevator...

00:35:31.970 --> 00:35:37.976
Then you're at the same rates
as Europe, as France.

00:35:38.056 --> 00:35:39.337
Another rhetorical phrase:

00:35:39.457 --> 00:35:41.860
"By creating wealth,
we're creating jobs."

00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:43.822
Yeah.

00:35:43.902 --> 00:35:46.705
So that if there's growth,
there's job creation.

00:35:46.785 --> 00:35:50.869
Can you talk a bit about...

00:35:51.149 --> 00:35:55.273
You could talk about
how it's false...

00:36:01.439 --> 00:36:04.082
Businesses don't even
create wealth anymore,

00:36:04.202 --> 00:36:06.284
they create value.
And what is value?

00:36:06.404 --> 00:36:10.168
It's the stocks going up
in the stock market.

00:36:11.609 --> 00:36:14.652
But is it really
factories opening,

00:36:14.733 --> 00:36:17.896
buildings being built?

00:36:17.976 --> 00:36:20.939
Is value really those things?
It's not. Not anymore.

00:36:21.019 --> 00:36:25.343
It's only speculation on profits
that will come sooner or later.

00:36:25.423 --> 00:36:30.428
And the Internet assigns
profits because...

00:36:33.752 --> 00:36:37.035
The thing that creates value
is unemployment.

00:36:37.115 --> 00:36:42.000
Because unemployment is high
because wages are low,

00:36:42.080 --> 00:36:43.601
because of the lack of strikes.

00:36:43.681 --> 00:36:47.365
France has a history of strikes,
but now there aren't any more,

00:36:47.445 --> 00:36:49.768
except sometimes
in the public sector,

00:36:49.848 --> 00:36:52.971
but overall, France has never
seen such a calm period

00:36:53.091 --> 00:36:56.815
since the dawn of capitalism.

00:36:59.137 --> 00:37:00.698
You keep looking...

00:37:00.819 --> 00:37:03.661
The noise doesn't bother me,
but you keep turning to look.

00:37:03.742 --> 00:37:07.826
-There's so much noise.
-Do you want to stop?

00:37:07.906 --> 00:37:09.587
No?

00:37:09.667 --> 00:37:12.430
-It's just so loud here.
-Is it bothering you?

00:37:12.510 --> 00:37:13.992
Yes, a bit.

00:37:15.994 --> 00:37:18.476
-Rolling.
-Twenty-three.

00:37:20.759 --> 00:37:24.362
Hold on.

00:37:24.442 --> 00:37:27.285
This isn't okay here,
we should go next door.

00:37:27.365 --> 00:37:29.888
We can't prevent them from...

00:37:34.532 --> 00:37:37.415
I'm extremely happy with
the latest issue.

00:37:37.655 --> 00:37:40.258
-It's a good one?
-Yeah. Didn't you see it?

00:37:40.338 --> 00:37:44.462
I didn't see it. I bought it,
but I had to finish this up.

00:37:48.466 --> 00:37:51.509
-Do you want coffee?
-I'm all right.

00:37:55.473 --> 00:37:57.155
Know who I'm dining
with tonight?

00:37:57.275 --> 00:37:59.357
No. DSK?

00:37:59.477 --> 00:38:02.801
-Line Renaud!
-No!

00:38:04.883 --> 00:38:06.925
Oh, yeah! That's great.

00:38:10.048 --> 00:38:12.050
You're really part of
Paris’s finest now!

00:38:12.130 --> 00:38:15.814
I'm visiting an old friend
of Sylvie's, and she said,

00:38:16.855 --> 00:38:21.499
"I hope it doesn't bother you,
but there's a chance that..."

00:38:23.181 --> 00:38:27.785
-I hope it's not recording now?
-Oh, yes, we're rolling.

00:38:28.346 --> 00:38:31.629
-So I thought of you.
-Of course!

00:38:34.392 --> 00:38:38.316
She'd be furious
if she knew I'd told you.

00:38:38.837 --> 00:38:41.119
-Line Renaud is...?
-A singer.

00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:43.922
She'll say, "I love Charlie!"

00:38:57.175 --> 00:38:59.898
I'm not here Monday or Sunday.

00:38:59.978 --> 00:39:02.260
-The meeting's on Sunday?
-Yes.

00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:06.104
-Have you written your article?
-No, I'll do it tomorrow.

00:39:07.785 --> 00:39:10.428
-Should we continue?
-Let's go.

00:39:10.508 --> 00:39:13.351
Where was I?

00:39:15.233 --> 00:39:17.155
Twenty-four!

00:39:18.436 --> 00:39:20.478
Twenty-five!

00:39:20.558 --> 00:39:27.045
One of the arguments often used
by the Financial Times,

00:39:27.125 --> 00:39:32.650
is that globalization will bring
lots of work to poor countries.

00:39:34.532 --> 00:39:37.175
At this point,
it creates a lot of slums.

00:39:37.255 --> 00:39:40.138
But maybe there will be work
for people to tear those down

00:39:40.218 --> 00:39:42.140
and build something else
in their place.

00:39:42.220 --> 00:39:45.583
But no, there's no...

00:39:45.663 --> 00:39:49.908
Yes, there is economic activity
in poor countries,

00:39:50.148 --> 00:39:53.631
but as far as I know,
it's not really changing much.

00:39:53.711 --> 00:39:57.835
2.4 billion human beings
with less than a dollar a day,

00:39:57.916 --> 00:40:01.039
and things aren't changing much.

00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:05.443
I think I read someplace

00:40:05.523 --> 00:40:08.446
that on a global level,
job creation has decreased.

00:40:08.526 --> 00:40:12.931
-Job creation is falling?
-That's what I understood.

00:40:15.693 --> 00:40:19.817
But it's true that there are
countries, like South Korea,

00:40:19.897 --> 00:40:22.660
that have developed
industrial activities.

00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:24.022
But at what price?

00:40:24.102 --> 00:40:28.626
Or China, which is "taking off,"

00:40:28.706 --> 00:40:31.189
and becoming
an industrialized country.

00:40:31.269 --> 00:40:33.591
But again, at what price?

00:40:33.671 --> 00:40:35.633
What does this new wealth
in China mean?

00:40:35.713 --> 00:40:38.796
What do these
new industries entail?

00:40:38.876 --> 00:40:40.798
The country already has
water problems,

00:40:40.878 --> 00:40:44.202
massive pollution
and contamination problems.

00:40:44.282 --> 00:40:48.126
Is that what development is?
I don't think so.

00:40:48.206 --> 00:40:50.168
Look at Russia for a minute,

00:40:50.248 --> 00:40:53.491
Bill Gates is richer
than Russia.

00:40:53.571 --> 00:40:57.535
Great. An individual is richer
than a huge state like Russia.

00:40:57.615 --> 00:40:59.617
A single individual
in the United States.

00:40:59.737 --> 00:41:02.620
Is that globalization?
Well, that's great.

00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:06.504
Crime, the mafia,
dropping life expectancies...

00:41:10.788 --> 00:41:13.711
Can you talk about
the natural unemployment rate?

00:41:13.791 --> 00:41:17.635
Or the Non-Accelerating
Inflation Rate of Unemployment?

00:41:18.796 --> 00:41:20.358
It's the unemployment rate

00:41:20.478 --> 00:41:22.080
that doesn't result
in inflation.

00:41:22.160 --> 00:41:24.642
Which means that...

00:41:25.923 --> 00:41:30.328
the fear of losing your job
is enough

00:41:30.408 --> 00:41:33.771
to prevent workers
from asking for pay raises.

00:41:33.851 --> 00:41:37.255
It was developed
by economists

00:41:37.335 --> 00:41:39.937
who said that countries
need unemployment

00:41:40.058 --> 00:41:42.860
to be just high enough
so that salaries don't budge.

00:41:42.940 --> 00:41:46.024
If there's a lot of work,
people will demand pay raises.

00:41:46.104 --> 00:41:48.026
Of course, when you pay
workers more,

00:41:48.146 --> 00:41:49.187
you make less profit.

00:41:49.267 --> 00:41:52.110
The economy is pretty simple.
It's like a cake.

00:41:52.190 --> 00:41:55.153
Who cuts the pieces
and who gives them out?

00:41:55.273 --> 00:42:00.678
For now, the cake is shared
among the rich and powerful,

00:42:00.758 --> 00:42:03.561
and there are crumbs
for the rest.

00:42:03.641 --> 00:42:04.762
Not much.

00:42:04.842 --> 00:42:10.048
The natural unemployment rate
was conceived so that

00:42:10.128 --> 00:42:15.053
those with the small piece
never ask for a larger piece.

00:42:15.133 --> 00:42:19.977
But what is behind
the fight against inflation?

00:42:20.058 --> 00:42:23.901
The leaders
must have their reasons...

00:42:23.981 --> 00:42:27.225
What's behind it all,
it's not so complicated,

00:42:27.305 --> 00:42:29.947
is that a lack of inflation
is good for creditors,

00:42:30.027 --> 00:42:32.110
for those who have
ready money to lend,

00:42:32.190 --> 00:42:33.711
who accumulate wealth.

00:42:33.791 --> 00:42:37.755
The creditors are...

00:42:37.875 --> 00:42:40.158
The richer you are,
the more you can lend.

00:42:40.198 --> 00:42:42.480
The poorer you are,
the more you need loans.

00:42:42.600 --> 00:42:45.843
And if you want to accumulate
wealth, you have to borrow.

00:42:45.923 --> 00:42:49.247
An inflation-free economy
favours the lender,

00:42:49.327 --> 00:42:51.289
it doesn't favour the borrower.

00:42:51.369 --> 00:42:55.373
It doesn't favour businesses
that make a habit of borrowing,

00:42:55.453 --> 00:42:58.256
but it favours the banks
that lend to those businesses.

00:42:58.336 --> 00:43:00.138
So the banks
lend to the businesses

00:43:00.218 --> 00:43:02.300
and the businesses
repay them by passing on

00:43:02.380 --> 00:43:08.226
the costs of the loan
to their employees.

00:43:09.747 --> 00:43:15.193
There's an expression
that's often used in politics,

00:43:15.273 --> 00:43:19.437
"You shouldn't spend
more than you earn."

00:43:19.517 --> 00:43:21.719
In the US, it's the opposite.

00:43:21.839 --> 00:43:24.722
What I like about Americans
is that they generally do

00:43:24.802 --> 00:43:26.724
the exact opposite
of what they say.

00:43:26.844 --> 00:43:28.926
They say, "Don't spend
more than you earn,"

00:43:29.006 --> 00:43:30.448
but it's exactly what they do.

00:43:30.528 --> 00:43:32.370
They borrow money to buy stocks.

00:43:32.450 --> 00:43:35.893
The US is the only country
with negative savings.

00:43:35.973 --> 00:43:40.378
They don't have enough money
to buy their stocks.

00:43:40.458 --> 00:43:42.940
So they borrow
from Europe and Japan.

00:43:43.020 --> 00:43:47.865
So that's the proof that you can
spend more than you earn.

00:43:47.945 --> 00:43:52.350
Can you explain how
it's a myth,

00:43:52.430 --> 00:43:55.273
because there would be
no growth...

00:43:55.353 --> 00:43:59.036
-Oh, the thing I was saying?
-Yes.

00:43:59.116 --> 00:44:01.439
-Yes.
-Can you develop that a bit?

00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:03.881
The economy can't develop
without credit.

00:44:03.961 --> 00:44:07.245
People have to make bets,
if you want economic growth.

00:44:07.325 --> 00:44:09.887
Personally,
I don't want economic growth.

00:44:10.007 --> 00:44:13.691
I think what we call growth,
is a rampant urban plague.

00:44:13.771 --> 00:44:15.333
For me, that's not growth.

00:44:15.453 --> 00:44:17.535
But if you accept
that growth is necessary,

00:44:17.655 --> 00:44:20.017
for growth to happen,
people have to anticipate

00:44:20.137 --> 00:44:21.859
things being built
in the future.

00:44:21.939 --> 00:44:25.223
Buildings, houses, workshops
and all that.

00:44:25.303 --> 00:44:28.666
So you have to create money
and borrow to have credit.

00:44:28.746 --> 00:44:31.709
If I can only spend money
that already exists,

00:44:31.789 --> 00:44:34.752
I'd be forced to sell,
or to ruin a small sector

00:44:34.832 --> 00:44:37.955
to get the cash flow I need
to transfer to another sector.

00:44:38.035 --> 00:44:39.917
It's a zero-sum endeavour,

00:44:39.997 --> 00:44:42.600
which means that I'll never
create a positive surplus.

00:44:42.720 --> 00:44:45.323
For a positive surplus
to happen in the economy,

00:44:45.403 --> 00:44:48.366
I have to bet on the future,
and for that, I need credit.

00:44:48.486 --> 00:44:53.451
So if I respect the saying about
not spending more than I earn,

00:44:53.531 --> 00:44:58.095
the economy will die.
It will stop in its tracks.

00:44:58.216 --> 00:45:00.378
But take care,
because what's happening today

00:45:00.458 --> 00:45:04.342
is that the economy creates
10, 20% of its money per year.

00:45:04.422 --> 00:45:06.624
That's huge, it's colossal.

00:45:06.744 --> 00:45:08.826
You want credit? We got it.

00:45:09.587 --> 00:45:13.190
That's how 3 to 4% of growth
is financed, and the rest,

00:45:13.271 --> 00:45:15.913
it goes to the stock market,
it goes to the rich

00:45:15.993 --> 00:45:18.556
who buy up the stocks
and send stock prices rocketing.

00:45:18.636 --> 00:45:20.718
We'll change the reel.

00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:26.364
That's the problem
with using film...

00:45:26.444 --> 00:45:30.007
With video, we can shoot
for hours without stopping.

00:45:30.087 --> 00:45:32.250
It's nice to take a break.

00:45:34.372 --> 00:45:37.255
When you were talking about

00:45:37.335 --> 00:45:40.658
Bill Gates
being richer than Russia,

00:45:40.818 --> 00:45:43.180
it's like a sort of
capitalist monarchy.

00:45:43.261 --> 00:45:47.224
It's the return of the monarchy,
isn't it?

00:45:47.305 --> 00:45:50.187
But the monarchy never left.

00:45:50.268 --> 00:45:54.312
The funny thing is,
even here at Charlie,

00:45:55.633 --> 00:45:57.435
which is a business,

00:45:57.515 --> 00:45:59.677
sometimes,
when the business side

00:45:59.837 --> 00:46:01.919
takes precedence over
the creative side,

00:46:01.999 --> 00:46:04.522
you can see the feudalism
coming back.

00:46:04.602 --> 00:46:07.325
The master, the serfs,

00:46:07.405 --> 00:46:11.769
the knighting ceremonies,
the relationship with authority.

00:46:12.330 --> 00:46:15.333
We shouldn't delude ourselves,
business is a feudal system.

00:46:15.413 --> 00:46:19.136
I don't believe in business.
Maybe you have a business...

00:46:20.298 --> 00:46:23.381
I don't know,
a millennial business.

00:46:23.461 --> 00:46:26.183
But business...

00:46:27.184 --> 00:46:32.229
In business, there's a boss
and that's it, that's all.

00:46:32.310 --> 00:46:34.472
You're a shareholder
at Charlie, aren't you?

00:46:34.552 --> 00:46:36.914
Yes, I'm one of the bosses.
A little boss.

00:46:36.994 --> 00:46:38.796
Charlie has three owners?

00:46:38.876 --> 00:46:43.801
Well, there's Val...
The owners areVal and Cabu.

00:46:43.881 --> 00:46:46.083
There are small shareholders.

00:46:46.163 --> 00:46:49.006
A mid-sized shareholder, Gébé,
and small shareholders,

00:46:49.086 --> 00:46:50.728
me and two others.

00:46:52.249 --> 00:46:55.613
The singer, Renaud, was with us,
but he sold his shares.

00:46:56.053 --> 00:46:58.336
Twenty-six on the way.

00:46:59.857 --> 00:47:01.098
Rolling.

00:47:02.259 --> 00:47:04.702
We had been talking
about growth.

00:47:04.822 --> 00:47:08.626
Can you explain what
underlies the idea of growth?

00:47:08.706 --> 00:47:11.949
That's very interesting,

00:47:12.029 --> 00:47:15.753
because when you look at
growth statistics,

00:47:15.873 --> 00:47:17.835
what is behind
the recorded growth?

00:47:19.036 --> 00:47:22.560
When I'm in a traffic jam
on an urban expressway,

00:47:22.640 --> 00:47:27.445
I'm contributing to growth
because I'm using gas,

00:47:27.525 --> 00:47:29.527
and the gross domestic product

00:47:29.607 --> 00:47:31.849
is equal to consumption
plus investment.

00:47:31.929 --> 00:47:34.412
I'm consuming,
so I'm contributing to growth.

00:47:34.492 --> 00:47:38.215
When I'm demolishing something,
like a landscape, that's growth.

00:47:38.295 --> 00:47:41.258
When I'm exterminating
an animal species,

00:47:41.338 --> 00:47:43.300
I'm contributing
to economic growth.

00:47:43.381 --> 00:47:47.184
So ultimately, growth is
whatever we want it to be.

00:47:47.264 --> 00:47:50.307
Every human activity,
no matter what it is,

00:47:50.388 --> 00:47:52.990
I can define it as growth.

00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:55.873
And that is extremely important,

00:47:55.953 --> 00:47:58.155
because we have to see
capitalism

00:47:58.235 --> 00:47:59.517
as beyond good and evil.

00:47:59.597 --> 00:48:03.160
Capitalism is blind
to good and evil.

00:48:03.240 --> 00:48:05.362
If you tell it
to empty the Aral Sea,

00:48:05.443 --> 00:48:07.805
this is Stalinist
state capitalism,

00:48:07.925 --> 00:48:11.328
which is still a form
of capitalism. It will do it.

00:48:11.409 --> 00:48:14.692
If you tell it to pollute
all of Brittany in France,

00:48:14.772 --> 00:48:17.935
with intensive pig farming,
it does it.

00:48:18.015 --> 00:48:19.697
If the next day you tell it,

00:48:19.777 --> 00:48:22.420
"You have to clean things up,
decontaminate,"

00:48:22.500 --> 00:48:25.142
it will do that, too.
And it will make money doing it.

00:48:25.222 --> 00:48:27.585
Making money is capitalism's
main concern.

00:48:27.665 --> 00:48:31.108
You tell it, "The human genome
has to be chopped into chunks,

00:48:31.188 --> 00:48:34.111
"packaged, patented and sold,"
it will do it.

00:48:35.833 --> 00:48:42.800
Anything that may be a source
of profit is fair game.

00:48:43.080 --> 00:48:46.043
And it systematically seeks
to destroy the collective.

00:48:46.123 --> 00:48:47.364
It can't help itself.

00:48:47.445 --> 00:48:50.367
It seeks out things
that are organized collectively.

00:48:50.448 --> 00:48:53.050
Once, that was land,
now land is totally privatized.

00:48:53.090 --> 00:48:55.252
There are a few forests
left here and there.

00:48:55.332 --> 00:48:57.615
Soon, even the air
will be privatized.

00:48:57.695 --> 00:49:01.378
Life is privatized,
information is privatized.

00:49:01.459 --> 00:49:02.780
Capitalism survives

00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:05.262
by progressively destroying
collective ownership.

00:49:05.342 --> 00:49:08.986
So what underlies growth
is whatever we put there.

00:49:09.066 --> 00:49:10.548
One day, someone will say,

00:49:10.628 --> 00:49:15.793
"With every car that's built,
humanity becomes unhappier”

00:49:15.873 --> 00:49:17.675
and I have no problem with that.

00:49:17.755 --> 00:49:21.118
That means we have to take
everything we've seen as growth

00:49:21.198 --> 00:49:23.360
and we have to look at it
as negative growth.

00:49:23.481 --> 00:49:27.404
What is generally meant by
externalizing...

00:49:27.485 --> 00:49:30.167
Well, an oil corporation

00:49:30.207 --> 00:49:34.732
that leaks its oil
into the collective,

00:49:34.812 --> 00:49:37.014
onto what belongs
to humanity in general,

00:49:37.094 --> 00:49:38.896
the ocean, a beach,
or anything else,

00:49:39.016 --> 00:49:40.698
it is externalizing its costs.

00:49:40.778 --> 00:49:45.142
It's a private entity
throwing things over the fence,

00:49:45.222 --> 00:49:49.987
things that then must
be dealt with by the collective.

00:49:50.067 --> 00:49:51.669
That's externalizing costs.

00:49:51.749 --> 00:49:53.831
Similarly, a boss that
lays off his workers

00:49:53.911 --> 00:49:55.272
is externalizing his costs,

00:49:55.352 --> 00:49:58.756
by which I mean misery,
suffering, food,

00:49:58.836 --> 00:50:01.599
housing, illness, etcetera.

00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:03.360
He transfers that to others,

00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:06.884
to families and friends,
to associations,

00:50:07.004 --> 00:50:09.486
to the State, if it has any
money to give them.

00:50:09.567 --> 00:50:13.771
But the boss doesn't care.
He's externalizing his costs.

00:50:13.891 --> 00:50:17.895
And externalization
is key to this system

00:50:18.015 --> 00:50:21.779
that has absolutely no notion
of what solidarity means.

00:50:22.540 --> 00:50:24.421
And that is wrong.

00:50:24.782 --> 00:50:26.584
And the expression...

00:50:26.664 --> 00:50:28.185
Look at the oil tanker Erika,

00:50:28.265 --> 00:50:31.749
a guy shows up and tries to
save a few pennies.

00:50:31.829 --> 00:50:34.391
Seriously, the savings
were nothing compared

00:50:34.471 --> 00:50:36.153
to the profits
they were making.

00:50:36.233 --> 00:50:38.475
He charters a leaky tub
of a tanker,

00:50:38.556 --> 00:50:41.398
he externalizes his costs
all over the coast,

00:50:41.478 --> 00:50:44.361
and the poor idiots are there
with their shovels and pails,

00:50:44.441 --> 00:50:46.764
and they're probably
going to get cancer

00:50:46.884 --> 00:50:49.206
because of the stupid shit
that guy did.

00:50:49.286 --> 00:50:53.090
That guy externalized his costs
all over the collective.

00:50:53.170 --> 00:50:55.693
What a mess.

00:50:55.773 --> 00:50:58.215
And this can happen also...

00:50:58.295 --> 00:50:59.897
I don't know, can you talk about

00:50:59.977 --> 00:51:02.780
the bad debts held by
financial institutions...

00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:04.702
Well, of course.

00:51:04.782 --> 00:51:08.065
The banks were crippled by
the savings and loan crisis.

00:51:08.145 --> 00:51:10.467
American savings banks
went bankrupt,

00:51:10.507 --> 00:51:12.069
and the taxpayers
paid for it.

00:51:12.149 --> 00:51:15.072
When in 1982,
Mexico defaulted on their debt

00:51:15.152 --> 00:51:17.915
what did the banks do?

00:51:17.995 --> 00:51:20.557
They forgave the debt.
The taxpayers bailed them out.

00:51:20.638 --> 00:51:25.122
The French were crippled
by mortgage loans in '94-'95,

00:51:25.202 --> 00:51:29.006
the Crédit Lyonnais
cost the French 100 billion.

00:51:29.126 --> 00:51:32.289
We wrote it off, we forgave the
debt, the taxpayers paid.

00:51:32.369 --> 00:51:35.412
When the stock bubble pops,
resulting in massive bankruptcy,

00:51:35.532 --> 00:51:36.814
what's going to happen?

00:51:36.894 --> 00:51:39.536
We're going to have
to bail out the banks.

00:51:39.657 --> 00:51:46.664
The taxpayers will pay for it
with blood, sweat and tears.

00:51:48.946 --> 00:51:51.588
Can you talk a bit about
the new economy,

00:51:51.669 --> 00:51:53.030
about what that means?

00:51:53.190 --> 00:51:55.953
The new economy.

00:51:56.033 --> 00:51:59.356
It's a big problem.

00:52:00.317 --> 00:52:01.839
An article in Le Monde said

00:52:01.919 --> 00:52:04.601
the new economy pollutes
less than the old one.

00:52:04.682 --> 00:52:07.645
I guess it's better to be
sitting at a computer

00:52:07.725 --> 00:52:10.167
than in a traffic jam,
or destroying a forest

00:52:10.287 --> 00:52:13.010
to make furniture
out of exotic wood.

00:52:13.130 --> 00:52:14.571
Fine.

00:52:14.652 --> 00:52:17.815
That being said, the new economy
isn't about knowledge,

00:52:17.895 --> 00:52:21.418
it's about selling information,
which is completely different.

00:52:21.498 --> 00:52:24.501
I'm not going to get into how
the Internet is being exploited.

00:52:24.581 --> 00:52:26.343
It was a private,
collective space,

00:52:26.423 --> 00:52:28.585
created by
disinterested individuals,

00:52:28.666 --> 00:52:30.948
and they built something
completely natural...

00:52:31.028 --> 00:52:32.429
Not natural,

00:52:32.509 --> 00:52:36.273
but something collective
and non-commercial,

00:52:36.353 --> 00:52:39.636
and then, boom,
taken over by business.

00:52:39.717 --> 00:52:41.598
Because business
knows only

00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:44.481
how to privatize things
that are collectively owned.

00:52:44.561 --> 00:52:48.686
But the fascinating thing
about the new economy

00:52:48.726 --> 00:52:51.368
is that it promises
infinite growth.

00:52:51.448 --> 00:52:54.491
It's true that knowledge
is infinite,

00:52:54.571 --> 00:52:56.734
so you can't saturate.

00:52:56.814 --> 00:52:58.335
You can be saturated
with cars,

00:52:58.415 --> 00:53:00.377
if you get a new car
every day,

00:53:00.457 --> 00:53:05.022
you'll have 365 cars,
and that's it.

00:53:05.102 --> 00:53:07.504
You'll have your parking lot
with 365 cars.

00:53:07.584 --> 00:53:10.187
You can't have more than that.
You can, but with difficulty.

00:53:11.268 --> 00:53:16.033
However, knowledge
is something infinite.

00:53:16.113 --> 00:53:19.036
So we make people believe

00:53:19.116 --> 00:53:23.080
that the appearance of knowledge
is knowledge itself.

00:53:23.200 --> 00:53:27.004
We say, "Here's amazon.com
with a billion titles!"

00:53:27.044 --> 00:53:28.726
I'm exaggerating...

00:53:28.806 --> 00:53:33.050
"A million books available,
it's that amazing?"

00:53:33.130 --> 00:53:35.132
And we tell ourselves
that's amazing.

00:53:35.252 --> 00:53:37.254
But the time we spend
on amazon.com

00:53:37.334 --> 00:53:38.936
is time we don't spend reading.

00:53:39.056 --> 00:53:41.658
And no matter what we do,
we're not going to read

00:53:41.739 --> 00:53:44.141
more than 1000 books
in our lives anyway.

00:53:44.261 --> 00:53:46.744
Maybe 1500,
if we're really keen.

00:53:46.864 --> 00:53:50.667
But we say, "Wow!
A million books available!"

00:53:50.748 --> 00:53:53.030
Sure, but what does that mean?

00:53:53.110 --> 00:53:55.152
Between the virtual
and the real?

00:53:55.272 --> 00:53:59.356
The new economy holds out
the bait of knowledge

00:53:59.436 --> 00:54:01.398
to attract people,
to entice them,

00:54:01.478 --> 00:54:03.520
to continue selling them
the old economy.

00:54:03.600 --> 00:54:06.163
A new computer
every two years isn't enough,

00:54:06.283 --> 00:54:08.045
now you need one
every six months.

00:54:08.125 --> 00:54:10.848
A new car every six months,
and all that.

00:54:10.928 --> 00:54:13.410
So we'll keep making
the same old things,

00:54:13.530 --> 00:54:16.814
keep pillaging
and destroying the planet

00:54:16.894 --> 00:54:22.339
in the name of great things
like knowledge.

00:54:22.419 --> 00:54:24.822
It's just like the idea
of workplace flexibility.

00:54:24.902 --> 00:54:27.945
They say, "You're going
to be free! You're free!"

00:54:28.025 --> 00:54:30.427
But you're not free,
you're a slave with a chain

00:54:30.547 --> 00:54:32.629
that's even stronger
than the old chain,

00:54:32.709 --> 00:54:35.512
because before,
at least you had work stability,

00:54:35.592 --> 00:54:39.076
and before you knew who to hate.

00:54:39.156 --> 00:54:41.758
You don't even know
who to hate anymore,

00:54:41.839 --> 00:54:44.001
because we're all the same,
all equal,

00:54:44.081 --> 00:54:45.923
your boss has Nikes
just like yours.

00:54:46.003 --> 00:54:47.644
It’s completely disgusting.

00:54:47.764 --> 00:54:50.848
They said that
flexibility is freedom

00:54:50.928 --> 00:54:55.012
when it's really just slavery.

00:54:55.092 --> 00:55:00.497
Can you talk about why some
new IT stock is taking off

00:55:00.577 --> 00:55:03.500
when the companies aren't even
turning a profit?

00:55:03.580 --> 00:55:07.664
It's just betting on the future.
It's the same old thing.

00:55:07.744 --> 00:55:09.867
There was speculation on tulips
in Holland,

00:55:09.947 --> 00:55:12.149
there were the railroads
in Great Britain,

00:55:12.229 --> 00:55:15.152
and that speculation was even
stronger than today's.

00:55:15.312 --> 00:55:18.836
In 1900, before World War One,
everyone was buying up...

00:55:18.876 --> 00:55:21.638
The stock market was soaring
and it dropped like a shot,

00:55:21.718 --> 00:55:24.882
it was even bigger than
the stock bubbles today.

00:55:24.962 --> 00:55:26.763
People speculate
on the future,

00:55:26.844 --> 00:55:29.967
on the fact that everyone
is going onto the Internet,

00:55:30.047 --> 00:55:31.088
but it'll come down.

00:55:31.168 --> 00:55:33.931
I don't know when.
If I knew, I'd be a billionaire,

00:55:34.051 --> 00:55:36.493
because I'd buy up
and sell the next day.

00:55:36.573 --> 00:55:39.616
Or I'd buy two days before
and sell the day before.

00:55:39.696 --> 00:55:41.859
But it's pure speculation

00:55:41.939 --> 00:55:44.661
on something
completely baseless.

00:55:46.183 --> 00:55:50.507
It's no big deal, as long as
people aren't paying for it.

00:55:50.587 --> 00:55:53.230
But at some point,
people are going to have to pay.

00:55:53.350 --> 00:55:54.551
And the people who pay

00:55:54.631 --> 00:55:56.874
are going to want a return
on their investment.

00:55:56.954 --> 00:55:58.235
They'll be told to wait.

00:55:58.355 --> 00:56:01.558
But at some point, they'll say,
"I'm selling, I'm not waiting."

00:56:01.638 --> 00:56:05.042
And at that point,
the bubble will pop.

00:56:05.122 --> 00:56:08.085
There's no doubt
that it will happen.

00:56:08.165 --> 00:56:12.529
If the bubble pops without
making a mess, we'll be fine.

00:56:12.569 --> 00:56:14.731
But it will come with
bankruptcy dominoes.

00:56:14.851 --> 00:56:18.295
The banks are invested
up to here in the new economy.

00:56:18.415 --> 00:56:21.458
You have to have the cash flow
to send stock prices up so high.

00:56:21.578 --> 00:56:24.621
And who lends the money?
The banks!

00:56:24.701 --> 00:56:26.944
The banks are stupid, though.

00:56:27.024 --> 00:56:28.585
Why are they stupid?

00:56:28.665 --> 00:56:30.307
They're always wrong.

00:56:30.427 --> 00:56:31.868
They were wrong in Mexico,

00:56:31.949 --> 00:56:35.112
they were wrong about real
estate and emerging countries.

00:56:35.192 --> 00:56:37.274
Now they're wrong
about the new economy.

00:56:37.394 --> 00:56:39.756
Bankers are stupid,
they don't see the future,

00:56:39.836 --> 00:56:41.158
they don’t know!

00:56:41.278 --> 00:56:43.880
They see everyone speculating
and try it, too.

00:56:44.001 --> 00:56:47.644
They rev the engine
until it explodes.

00:56:47.724 --> 00:56:50.567
Can you talk about
how wealth

00:56:50.647 --> 00:56:53.810
is created
in the stock market?

00:56:53.890 --> 00:56:56.533
-There's no wealth there.
-Or value.

00:56:56.613 --> 00:56:58.575
Value. There's no wealth.

00:56:58.655 --> 00:57:00.777
Wealth only exists
when it is actualized.

00:57:00.857 --> 00:57:03.700
Markets only give
a promise of wealth.

00:57:03.780 --> 00:57:08.025
It's not like a 100-dollar bill.
Be careful.

00:57:08.105 --> 00:57:09.906
To have wealth
in the stock market,

00:57:09.987 --> 00:57:11.228
I have to sell.

00:57:11.308 --> 00:57:13.510
I have to buy something,
some land, a car,

00:57:13.590 --> 00:57:18.956
I have to go to a spa,
buy a book, go to the movies.

00:57:19.036 --> 00:57:20.357
If everyone did that,

00:57:20.517 --> 00:57:22.919
the stock market
would be worthless.

00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:25.362
So it's a promise of value.

00:57:25.482 --> 00:57:28.085
A dollar bill is actual value.

00:57:28.765 --> 00:57:31.328
If everyone buys something
with their money,

00:57:31.448 --> 00:57:34.811
the bubble won't burst,
there will be no crash.

00:57:34.891 --> 00:57:38.215
The economy will be fine.
It's not the same.

00:57:38.295 --> 00:57:40.617
So how does it create value?

00:57:40.737 --> 00:57:43.180
Because there are people
who fan the flames.

00:57:43.260 --> 00:57:46.863
They say, "It'll go up!"
so the rumours go around.

00:57:46.943 --> 00:57:52.069
"It's going up, we should buy,
so-and-so said it would."

00:57:52.149 --> 00:57:53.510
Someone else says,

00:57:53.590 --> 00:57:56.353
"He said that he said
that it was going up."

00:57:56.473 --> 00:57:58.755
And then everyone buys it
and it goes up.

00:57:58.835 --> 00:58:04.121
So the first guy says,
"I told you so! It went up!"

00:58:04.201 --> 00:58:07.964
It's called a self-fulfilling
prophecy.

00:58:08.045 --> 00:58:09.846
Like a couple that says,

00:58:09.926 --> 00:58:11.808
"I think we're going to
argue..."

00:58:11.888 --> 00:58:14.691
"No, why would we fight?"
"Okay, let's not."

00:58:14.771 --> 00:58:17.654
They talk so much about
whether or not they’ll fight

00:58:17.734 --> 00:58:19.376
they end up
fighting about it.

00:58:19.496 --> 00:58:22.099
So they created
a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00:58:23.860 --> 00:58:26.583
It's the same thing
with the stock market.

00:58:26.663 --> 00:58:29.106
Let's change the reel.

00:58:29.186 --> 00:58:32.269
In a relationship, when you say,

00:58:32.349 --> 00:58:36.353
"Listen, dear, I'm not trying
to fight, I swear"

00:58:36.513 --> 00:58:39.996
You can be sure that
it will end in...

00:58:42.359 --> 00:58:45.642
You make the future happen
like that.

00:58:48.885 --> 00:58:52.849
We're going to talk a bit more
about financial markets...

00:58:52.929 --> 00:58:55.252
Yeah, maybe.

00:58:55.332 --> 00:58:58.975
I can't say when,
but this bubble is not normal.

00:58:59.056 --> 00:59:01.138
The Americans
are running scared,

00:59:01.218 --> 00:59:04.821
trying to get it
to come down gently.

00:59:04.901 --> 00:59:07.544
Twenty-seven!

00:59:07.624 --> 00:59:14.271
Can you give a simple
explanation about derivatives?

00:59:14.311 --> 00:59:16.313
Yes, that's really important.

00:59:16.393 --> 00:59:20.717
Because they're things
that didn't exist,

00:59:20.797 --> 00:59:24.681
they were created
in tandem with globalization,

00:59:24.761 --> 00:59:27.844
around the 1970s.

00:59:29.966 --> 00:59:32.609
They're basically
insurance contracts.

00:59:32.729 --> 00:59:35.252
In other words,

00:59:35.332 --> 00:59:39.216
you are insured
against future fluctuations

00:59:39.336 --> 00:59:42.499
in interest rates and currency.

00:59:42.659 --> 00:59:49.506
You sign a contract
payable in 6 months.

00:59:50.066 --> 00:59:54.030
The contract is in dollars.

00:59:54.791 --> 00:59:58.355
If the dollar rises,
you're in trouble.

00:59:58.435 --> 01:00:02.319
In 6 months, you'll have to
buy dollars at a 10% premium.

01:00:02.359 --> 01:00:07.644
So you take out insurance
on the value of the dollar.

01:00:07.764 --> 01:00:13.690
A guy takes on the risk.
You pay him 3% or 4% extra.

01:00:13.770 --> 01:00:19.015
If the dollar rises or falls,
you're set, you have insurance.

01:00:19.095 --> 01:00:21.338
And the guy wins if it falls.

01:00:21.418 --> 01:00:23.019
That's a derivative product.

01:00:23.099 --> 01:00:27.504
The interesting thing is
it creates a risk economy.

01:00:27.664 --> 01:00:29.906
Currency
is no longer controlled,

01:00:29.986 --> 01:00:31.988
capital flux isn't monitored.

01:00:32.068 --> 01:00:35.111
It's an economy
where risk is maintained

01:00:35.192 --> 01:00:38.795
in order to create,
on top of this system,

01:00:38.875 --> 01:00:42.959
an insurance system
where risk is covered.

01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:48.325
But the difference between this
and risks like car accidents

01:00:48.405 --> 01:00:51.328
is that accidents are
predictable.

01:00:51.408 --> 01:00:53.730
It's the law of probability.

01:00:53.810 --> 01:00:59.176
Whereas risks
in the financial markets

01:00:59.296 --> 01:01:02.379
are rare epiphenomena

01:01:02.459 --> 01:01:05.021
that can't be
statistically quantified.

01:01:05.101 --> 01:01:08.144
Absolute risks,
absolutely unforeseeable.

01:01:08.225 --> 01:01:12.829
So these insurance contracts
that top off the normal economy

01:01:12.909 --> 01:01:15.792
create a second layer
that's even riskier.

01:01:15.912 --> 01:01:21.358
So, sometimes people take out
insurance on their insurance.

01:01:21.438 --> 01:01:24.801
You see where this can lead.
You create a risk pyramid.

01:01:24.881 --> 01:01:28.004
And people speculate on that.

01:01:28.084 --> 01:01:32.769
You create a purely speculative
economy by sustaining risk.

01:01:32.889 --> 01:01:35.812
A trait of
contemporary capitalism

01:01:35.932 --> 01:01:38.575
is this economy
where financial risk

01:01:38.695 --> 01:01:44.421
is systematically maintained,
and systematically marketed.

01:01:44.541 --> 01:01:47.424
Okay?

01:01:47.544 --> 01:01:51.468
Can you give an idea
of the value

01:01:51.548 --> 01:01:57.033
of the bubble created
from the derivatives market?

01:01:57.113 --> 01:01:59.035
And of the danger
of that bubble?

01:01:59.075 --> 01:02:01.638
I know that it's a little more
than the stock market,

01:02:01.758 --> 01:02:05.001
but I can't say
how much exactly.

01:02:05.442 --> 01:02:07.404
And these are markets
that didn't exist.

01:02:07.484 --> 01:02:11.328
So normal markets can work
without derivatives markets.

01:02:11.408 --> 01:02:15.051
And can you explain the danger
they pose

01:02:15.131 --> 01:02:17.133
to the overall economy?

01:02:17.213 --> 01:02:22.138
For example,
there's a fund called LTCM,

01:02:22.218 --> 01:02:24.301
Long Term Management...

01:02:24.381 --> 01:02:28.385
Long Term Capital Management.

01:02:28.465 --> 01:02:31.508
This is a derivative fund

01:02:31.588 --> 01:02:36.112
that speculates
on derivative products.

01:02:36.192 --> 01:02:39.756
It speculates on insurance
taken out on bonds.

01:02:39.836 --> 01:02:43.320
The fund manager,
named Meriwether,

01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:50.407
he speculated on
people hedging American bonds,

01:02:50.767 --> 01:02:53.290
on the interest rates
of American bonds.

01:02:53.370 --> 01:02:54.931
And what did he do?

01:02:55.011 --> 01:03:00.216
With people hedging
Russian loans, for example.

01:03:00.297 --> 01:03:02.299
He speculated on them.

01:03:02.379 --> 01:03:05.822
Just a typical guy speculating
on derivatives markets.

01:03:05.902 --> 01:03:08.345
And then what happened?

01:03:08.425 --> 01:03:12.509
The guy is in huge trouble
because of the Russian bonds.

01:03:12.549 --> 01:03:15.271
He thought it was going up
but it went down.

01:03:15.352 --> 01:03:17.954
Shit!
So he's bankrupt.

01:03:18.034 --> 01:03:20.276
No one knows how much he lost,

01:03:20.357 --> 01:03:22.559
but we imagine
an astronomical amount,

01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:25.402
we imagine it's more than
a trillion dollars.

01:03:25.482 --> 01:03:28.445
It's so big we think
if he really goes bankrupt,

01:03:28.525 --> 01:03:31.167
he will take the economy
down with him.

01:03:31.247 --> 01:03:32.609
So we have to bail him out.

01:03:32.689 --> 01:03:36.973
So Greenspan forms
a consortium of banks,

01:03:37.053 --> 01:03:40.497
private banks, of course,
that covers this guy.

01:03:40.577 --> 01:03:43.219
That means that it's
you and I who pay

01:03:43.299 --> 01:03:46.623
because they're private banks,
who claim it as an expense.

01:03:46.703 --> 01:03:48.545
So the risk is huge.

01:03:48.625 --> 01:03:50.507
LTCM is a great story,

01:03:50.587 --> 01:03:53.269
because it gives us an idea
of the economy's opacity.

01:03:53.309 --> 01:03:56.072
Greenspan's problem is not
that he has to cover for LTCM,

01:03:56.152 --> 01:03:58.435
it's that he doesn't know
how much was lost.

01:03:58.515 --> 01:04:00.757
He can't take the risk
of not covering them.

01:04:00.917 --> 01:04:04.160
Maybe if he knew exactly
how much was lost,

01:04:04.240 --> 01:04:06.643
he could say
"Oh well, too bad for you."

01:04:06.723 --> 01:04:10.246
"You deserved it."
But he can't take the risk.

01:04:10.326 --> 01:04:16.292
He thinks the amount
is so huge he has to cover it.

01:04:17.894 --> 01:04:21.498
We were talking about opacity,
can you explain

01:04:21.578 --> 01:04:25.542
how everything is hidden,
off the books?

01:04:26.302 --> 01:04:28.064
Take France as an example.

01:04:28.144 --> 01:04:30.467
Banks are controlled
by a kind of bank police:

01:04:30.547 --> 01:04:32.389
the Banking
Supervision Commission.

01:04:32.469 --> 01:04:34.511
The Commission is responsible

01:04:34.631 --> 01:04:36.913
for keeping an eye on
the bank books,

01:04:36.993 --> 01:04:39.396
making sure they're
being responsible,

01:04:39.476 --> 01:04:42.919
that they don't lend too much
to South Korea,

01:04:42.999 --> 01:04:45.522
to the emerging countries,
to Russia, etcetera.

01:04:45.602 --> 01:04:48.685
They make sure
things are done responsibly,

01:04:48.765 --> 01:04:51.528
that banks lend to people
who will pay their debts.

01:04:51.608 --> 01:04:53.209
Fine.

01:04:54.170 --> 01:04:57.253
Before,

01:04:57.333 --> 01:05:03.740
nearly all banking operations
until the '70s were monitored.

01:05:03.820 --> 01:05:08.384
All these operations went
to the central bank of France

01:05:08.465 --> 01:05:10.507
which kept track of them.

01:05:10.587 --> 01:05:14.030
Now the problem is,
banks transact over the counter.

01:05:14.110 --> 01:05:20.076
They've taken out just over
half of their business figures,

01:05:20.156 --> 01:05:22.158
because over-the-counter
transactions

01:05:22.238 --> 01:05:24.120
are outside market control.

01:05:24.240 --> 01:05:27.203
It's as though there were
a normal market,

01:05:27.283 --> 01:05:28.605
and a black market.

01:05:28.685 --> 01:05:30.487
It's like a grocery store

01:05:30.567 --> 01:05:33.169
with posted prices
and a cash register,

01:05:33.249 --> 01:05:37.133
and right next door,
a mysterious black market.

01:05:37.213 --> 01:05:39.616
According to the Bank of France,

01:05:39.696 --> 01:05:42.579
which checks
these banks' reports,

01:05:42.659 --> 01:05:46.463
about half of bank transactions
are unreported,

01:05:46.543 --> 01:05:50.226
beyond the control
of a superior authority

01:05:50.306 --> 01:05:54.270
like a public treasury
or a central bank.

01:05:54.350 --> 01:05:56.753
These unreported activities

01:05:56.833 --> 01:06:01.317
mean that the government
counts for nothing.

01:06:02.398 --> 01:06:09.005
There must be
at least $500 billion

01:06:09.085 --> 01:06:13.289
circulating every day
in offshore funds.

01:06:13.369 --> 01:06:18.254
If a government hassles a bank,
it doesn't care.

01:06:18.495 --> 01:06:20.977
It just stocks up with
one of its foreign counterparts,

01:06:22.058 --> 01:06:27.303
another multi-national bank,
an offshore fund or elsewhere.

01:06:27.383 --> 01:06:29.506
No problem.
Money's mobile now.

01:06:29.586 --> 01:06:33.349
It's beyond the control
of any public authority.

01:06:33.750 --> 01:06:39.155
Over-the-counter transactions

01:06:40.517 --> 01:06:43.760
are a very serious problem.

01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:48.484
To control the economy,
you must control money.

01:06:48.565 --> 01:06:50.406
We're going to
change the reel.

01:06:50.486 --> 01:06:52.088
Are you tired, Oncle B.?

01:06:52.168 --> 01:06:55.291
Yeah, I'm getting
exhausted here.

01:06:55.371 --> 01:06:58.775
Baillargeon!
What a character, that one.

01:06:58.855 --> 01:07:01.177
Yeah, I'm looking forward
to interviewing him.

01:07:01.257 --> 01:07:03.820
What a guy!
Say hello from me.

01:07:03.900 --> 01:07:05.822
I like that guy.

01:07:06.823 --> 01:07:10.547
-What's his name?
-Normand.

01:07:12.789 --> 01:07:15.552
Twenty-eight!

01:07:15.632 --> 01:07:18.034
Rolling.

01:07:18.154 --> 01:07:22.478
So if we could talk a bit
about pension funds...

01:07:23.720 --> 01:07:29.966
Pension funds are truly
the biggest con job,

01:07:30.086 --> 01:07:34.290
since the myth
of profits creating jobs.

01:07:34.370 --> 01:07:36.733
Remember we said that
it's really unemployment

01:07:36.813 --> 01:07:39.255
that creates profits,
I think that's understood.

01:07:39.335 --> 01:07:42.659
But this business of
pension funds is amazing,

01:07:42.739 --> 01:07:45.181
especially in a country
like France.

01:07:46.142 --> 01:07:51.387
Because they say,
"You won't have a pension."

01:07:51.467 --> 01:07:53.950
That's the first lie.

01:07:54.070 --> 01:07:55.632
Then they say,

01:07:55.712 --> 01:07:58.314
"French companies
don't have enough cash flow,

01:07:58.394 --> 01:08:01.718
"so employees must rally
to help the capitalist,

01:08:01.798 --> 01:08:03.960
"or he won't have
enough cash."

01:08:04.080 --> 01:08:05.361
That's completely false.

01:08:05.441 --> 01:08:07.604
French companies
are stuffed full of cash,

01:08:07.684 --> 01:08:09.205
and export it to foreign banks.

01:08:09.285 --> 01:08:11.527
They can't invest
all their money in France,

01:08:11.608 --> 01:08:14.170
so they invest it elsewhere,
like in the US.

01:08:14.250 --> 01:08:17.373
And people say,
"They should stay French,

01:08:17.453 --> 01:08:20.176
"if we want French companies
to belong to French people,

01:08:20.256 --> 01:08:22.098
"France for the French."

01:08:22.178 --> 01:08:24.340
"The workers have to
make an effort

01:08:24.460 --> 01:08:26.462
"to help the capitalist bosses."

01:08:26.542 --> 01:08:31.868
That's a dirty trick,
because it's obvious

01:08:31.988 --> 01:08:34.711
that the Frenchest of French
pension funds

01:08:34.791 --> 01:08:36.793
will seek out
the highest profit.

01:08:36.873 --> 01:08:40.757
They won't aim for 5%
in France just to please people.

01:08:40.877 --> 01:08:45.041
They're going to try for 10%
or 15% in the US or elsewhere.

01:08:45.161 --> 01:08:46.803
Just as they should.

01:08:46.883 --> 01:08:48.524
And fourthly, they say,

01:08:48.604 --> 01:08:50.606
"It's because of
widows in Scotland.

01:08:50.687 --> 01:08:53.209
"The French are paying
for the pensions

01:08:53.289 --> 01:08:54.771
"of widows in Scotland

01:08:54.851 --> 01:08:58.735
"and California railway workers,
and Iowa schoolteachers."

01:08:58.815 --> 01:09:03.980
That is an enormous
moral swindle!

01:09:04.981 --> 01:09:08.064
It's a scandal,
to make people believe that.

01:09:08.184 --> 01:09:10.066
It's right-wing Le Pen-style!

01:09:10.186 --> 01:09:13.549
It's like saying immigrants
are stealing your jobs.

01:09:13.629 --> 01:09:18.154
"Scotland’s widows
are stealing your bread."

01:09:18.234 --> 01:09:21.037
That's just nasty,
that kind of argument.

01:09:21.077 --> 01:09:23.279
So I'll return
to the first argument,

01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:25.441
that people
won't have a pension.

01:09:25.521 --> 01:09:27.323
I think that debate is closed.

01:09:27.403 --> 01:09:30.847
Even the neo-liberals admit
they took us for fools.

01:09:30.927 --> 01:09:32.488
When you read the latest reports

01:09:32.568 --> 01:09:34.811
like the Charpin Report
in France,

01:09:34.891 --> 01:09:38.895
and the latest report on pension
funds, you see it isn't true.

01:09:38.975 --> 01:09:41.337
Because generally,
people say,

01:09:41.417 --> 01:09:44.540
"There will be fewer workers
and more pensioners,

01:09:44.660 --> 01:09:45.822
"what should I do?

01:09:45.902 --> 01:09:51.107
"I'll work and save some money,
then use it when I'm old."

01:09:51.227 --> 01:09:54.711
Except if I put that money
under my mattress,

01:09:54.791 --> 01:09:56.432
it won't work for me.

01:09:56.512 --> 01:09:59.595
So I have to find some idiot
to make it work for me,

01:09:59.675 --> 01:10:01.277
if I want to have
a good pension.

01:10:01.357 --> 01:10:03.079
You never hear that!

01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:06.282
So you always have to have
a working population,

01:10:06.362 --> 01:10:08.885
even in a pension fund system,

01:10:08.965 --> 01:10:11.287
you still need workers
to make the money grow.

01:10:11.327 --> 01:10:12.929
That's how capitalism works.

01:10:13.009 --> 01:10:16.212
For now, if I put $100
under my mattress,

01:10:16.292 --> 01:10:20.937
it's still going to be $100
when I take it out again.

01:10:21.017 --> 01:10:24.340
If I have Russian loans,
and my money doesn't grow,

01:10:24.420 --> 01:10:25.982
I'm going to be appalled!

01:10:26.823 --> 01:10:28.905
We need there to be
a working population

01:10:28.985 --> 01:10:32.708
we need jobs, economic activity,
intelligence, culture, etcetera,

01:10:32.789 --> 01:10:34.230
that make investments grow.

01:10:34.310 --> 01:10:37.313
So pension funds are bullshit!

01:10:37.393 --> 01:10:39.595
They're laughing in our faces.

01:10:39.675 --> 01:10:44.720
They can see social security
is in public hands.

01:10:44.801 --> 01:10:46.883
"But then again,
we'd like some money!

01:10:46.963 --> 01:10:49.806
It's too bad that all that money
has to stay..."

01:10:49.886 --> 01:10:51.928
“Why shouldn't it be
in private hands?”

01:10:52.008 --> 01:10:54.610
That's why Americans
have next to no pension,

01:10:54.690 --> 01:10:55.731
compared to France.

01:10:55.812 --> 01:10:58.734
That's why the American medical
system is so poor,

01:10:58.855 --> 01:11:02.899
and the English one
is pathetic!

01:11:02.979 --> 01:11:06.142
That's why English trains
derail regularly.

01:11:06.302 --> 01:11:08.865
Pension funds
are like telling people,

01:11:08.985 --> 01:11:15.431
"Beware of foreigners!"
It's like a kind of racism.

01:11:15.511 --> 01:11:17.193
"Come get exploited
by the French,

01:11:17.313 --> 01:11:19.675
"We all know that the French
are much nicer

01:11:19.755 --> 01:11:21.077
"when they exploit people

01:11:21.157 --> 01:11:22.959
"than the Japanese
or the Americans."

01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:26.002
The people that say that
obviously never worked

01:11:26.082 --> 01:11:29.605
at Michelin, or Peugeot,
which treat people like slaves,

01:11:29.685 --> 01:11:31.127
there's no other word for it.

01:11:31.287 --> 01:11:35.051
So pension funds are a system
that lets us believe

01:11:35.171 --> 01:11:37.733
that American retirees
will be rich.

01:11:37.814 --> 01:11:38.975
It's not true!

01:11:39.055 --> 01:11:41.417
The commercial banks
reap the profits.

01:11:41.497 --> 01:11:46.142
American workers
fill their pension funds.

01:11:46.302 --> 01:11:49.465
The money isn't managed directly
by the pension funds,

01:11:49.545 --> 01:11:51.828
it's managed by what we call
fund managers.

01:11:51.908 --> 01:11:54.030
And fund managers work
for investment banks,

01:11:54.110 --> 01:11:55.912
like Merrill Lynch, etcetera.

01:11:55.992 --> 01:11:58.074
The fund managers
at the investment banks

01:11:58.194 --> 01:11:59.836
tell the companies,

01:11:59.916 --> 01:12:04.440
"We want to make a profit,
we want 15% net on our capital,

01:12:04.520 --> 01:12:08.164
"get working,
I want to see 15% net."

01:12:08.244 --> 01:12:09.685
And the moral is?

01:12:09.765 --> 01:12:13.769
As an employee, I fire people
so I can make 15% net.

01:12:13.850 --> 01:12:15.451
But I'm an idiot if I do that,

01:12:15.531 --> 01:12:17.854
because if I fire people,
who is going to pay me?

01:12:17.974 --> 01:12:19.976
Who's going to make
my money grow?

01:12:20.056 --> 01:12:24.580
So the 15% net, I get it
by putting pressure on workers.

01:12:24.660 --> 01:12:28.344
And then the banks take 5%,
and the pension fund takes 5%,

01:12:28.424 --> 01:12:31.107
and there's 5% left over
for me, the little employee.

01:12:31.187 --> 01:12:34.790
American pension funds
can't keep pace with stocks.

01:12:34.871 --> 01:12:36.913
Pension funds
just aren't very profitable.

01:12:36.993 --> 01:12:40.276
If we look at the big picture
of pension funds,

01:12:40.396 --> 01:12:42.478
everything is wrong!

01:12:42.598 --> 01:12:44.881
It's a real scandal,
the idea of pension funds!

01:12:44.961 --> 01:12:46.522
And whom do they profit?

01:12:46.602 --> 01:12:49.245
Insurance companies and
guys like Bébéar!

01:12:49.365 --> 01:12:51.928
Now, this idiot...
Sorry, but I'm a little tired,

01:12:52.008 --> 01:12:56.732
so I'm not choosing
my words carefully.

01:12:56.812 --> 01:13:00.776
But look at Bébéar,

01:13:00.856 --> 01:13:03.619
all of a sudden
he takes off his mask.

01:13:03.699 --> 01:13:05.261
What does he do?

01:13:05.381 --> 01:13:09.505
Disabled people
are starting to cost him money,

01:13:09.585 --> 01:13:13.269
so he doubles the premiums,
just like that.

01:13:13.389 --> 01:13:15.231
And we say,
"That's despicable!"

01:13:15.311 --> 01:13:17.553
Some people who have
taken out life insurance

01:13:17.633 --> 01:13:20.596
because they have disabled
children can't pay anymore.

01:13:20.676 --> 01:13:23.119
He says, "Solidarity is
not my problem.

01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:24.800
"I care about making money.

01:13:24.880 --> 01:13:27.043
"I'll leave solidarity
to everyone else."

01:13:27.123 --> 01:13:28.564
And what does this guy want?

01:13:28.644 --> 01:13:30.566
He wants to privatize
social security,

01:13:30.646 --> 01:13:32.328
but not insure
solidarity.

01:13:32.448 --> 01:13:35.171
So that's the fabulous tale
of pension funds.

01:13:35.251 --> 01:13:41.297
Between Total Oil and AXA,
who doesn't want to pay up,

01:13:41.457 --> 01:13:44.260
who doesn't want to finance
life insurance contracts

01:13:44.340 --> 01:13:47.863
of parents of disabled children,
things took a nosedive.

01:13:47.944 --> 01:13:51.147
Things went back 20 years.
They almost had it.

01:13:51.227 --> 01:13:54.030
They almost had social security.

01:13:54.110 --> 01:13:57.433
But they made a mistake,
a big one.

01:13:57.513 --> 01:14:00.316
You think the Socialists
would have given it to them?

01:14:00.436 --> 01:14:04.320
No, we'll have to wait
another 20 years.

01:14:04.440 --> 01:14:06.162
Maybe the next generation.

01:14:06.242 --> 01:14:08.844
Speaking of privatization,
can you...

01:14:11.047 --> 01:14:14.170
Why is the CAC 40
owned by foreigners?

01:14:14.330 --> 01:14:18.374
The French stock market!
Why?

01:14:18.534 --> 01:14:24.580
Because we privatized
our state corporations.

01:14:26.382 --> 01:14:28.104
-Fischettuche!
-It’s not him.

01:14:30.266 --> 01:14:32.388
We privatized
our state corporations.

01:14:32.508 --> 01:14:34.950
When people’s savings
are monopolized

01:14:35.031 --> 01:14:36.872
by life insurance contracts,

01:14:36.993 --> 01:14:39.355
you can't buy into
privatized corporations.

01:14:39.475 --> 01:14:41.877
Who will buy them up?
Foreigners.

01:14:41.957 --> 01:14:44.600
That said, the numbers
are manipulated.

01:14:44.680 --> 01:14:49.045
We have the idiot Socialists,
like Senator Weber, who say,

01:14:49.125 --> 01:14:51.607
"Oh no! 50% of the CAC 40..."
But it's not true.

01:14:51.687 --> 01:14:56.372
If we look at who really owns
the capital in French companies,

01:14:56.532 --> 01:14:59.815
we see it's 25% foreign-owned,
like everywhere else.

01:15:00.016 --> 01:15:02.618
Anyway, being exploited
by the Chinese or the Japanese

01:15:02.698 --> 01:15:05.101
or a Martian or a Frenchman
with smelly feet...

01:15:05.221 --> 01:15:07.983
What difference does it make?

01:15:08.104 --> 01:15:10.186
It's still exploitation.

01:15:10.306 --> 01:15:13.869
Can you talk a bit about
the financialization

01:15:13.949 --> 01:15:17.313
of the economy
that eats up all the money,

01:15:17.393 --> 01:15:19.715
and how that's related
to employment?

01:15:19.795 --> 01:15:24.160
Well, that's a bit
complicated...

01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:29.765
It's in the distribution...
The economy isn't complicated.

01:15:29.805 --> 01:15:35.291
Whoever is holding the knife
gets to cut up the cake.

01:15:35.371 --> 01:15:39.775
So financialization is like
taking the knife from one hand

01:15:39.855 --> 01:15:42.378
and putting it
in your other hand.

01:15:43.059 --> 01:15:46.462
So basically, financialization
means that rich people,

01:15:46.542 --> 01:15:49.225
the economy's creditors,
who create money,

01:15:49.305 --> 01:15:51.947
the people
who circulate the money,

01:15:52.027 --> 01:15:54.350
the people who lend
and have savings,

01:15:54.430 --> 01:15:57.473
the people who
already have capital,

01:15:57.593 --> 01:15:59.355
they hold the knife.

01:15:59.435 --> 01:16:03.079
In financialization,
each time they cut the cake,

01:16:03.159 --> 01:16:06.962
they're going to cut smaller and
smaller pieces for the others.

01:16:07.042 --> 01:16:10.486
It's only human!
Capitalism isn't democracy.

01:16:10.606 --> 01:16:14.490
Everyone's watching the guy
holding the knife.

01:16:14.610 --> 01:16:18.334
If they're powerful, they say,
"Give us a little more."

01:16:18.974 --> 01:16:21.617
But the weak
just watch it happen.

01:16:21.937 --> 01:16:24.180
So financialization
gives the knife

01:16:24.260 --> 01:16:26.702
to those with financial capital,

01:16:26.822 --> 01:16:29.185
and a weak labour market
and high unemployment

01:16:29.265 --> 01:16:32.868
let these guys cut the cake
however they want.

01:16:32.948 --> 01:16:35.871
That's not so complicated.

01:16:35.951 --> 01:16:40.236
That ass Schweitzer,
is so proud of 15% profits,

01:16:40.316 --> 01:16:44.079
because he fires people and
closes a facility at Vilvoorde.

01:16:44.160 --> 01:16:49.125
What pride is there in that?
How can he be proud?

01:16:54.049 --> 01:16:55.371
Should we do one more?

01:16:55.451 --> 01:16:58.334
One for the road?
What time is it? Oh no...

01:16:58.414 --> 01:16:59.895
-Can we stop?
-Okay.

01:16:59.975 --> 01:17:02.258
Because I have to go.

01:17:02.338 --> 01:17:06.342
Is it okay?
Did you get all you wanted?

01:17:06.422 --> 01:17:10.146
-We got the cake and the icing!
-You got the icing and the cake!

01:18:48.724 --> 01:18:53.369
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