WEBVTT

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(upbeat jazz music)

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- I always have the sort of feeling

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that one should paint
just what\'s in your world.

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I look at the world and
try to understand it.

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Just to look at it.

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I think that\'s still what I\'m doing.

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I am a camera I guess.

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(upbeat jazz music continues)

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I\'ve taken the most boring subjects,

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(laughs)

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in a way that I could,

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and sometimes they\'re the most interesting

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(camera beeping)

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Well, you know, you don\'t really look

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for anything in particular

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because everything is an accident.

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You just sort of keep your eye open

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for something interesting

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and then you snap it (laughs)

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before it disappears

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For every one painting,
I\'ve taken 150 photos.

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Even with film, I would
go out a day shooting

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it would be maybe a dozen 24
exposure rolls of 120 film.

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So it was a lot of pictures.

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So not many of \'em really
ended up as paintings.

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Actually I think the first
film I ever developed,

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I was eight years old.

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My grandmother gave me a developing kit

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where you had trays of chemicals

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and you just dipped the film in that,

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worked it back and forth

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in the different chemicals and let it dry

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and then laid the negatives,

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because they were big
negatives, on photo paper

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and expose it and then developed that.

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(upbeat jazz music)

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- There you are! (laughing)

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- Richard has emerged as
by far the dominant figure,

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the best practitioner of photo realism.

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(soft jazz music)

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- Gradually, I just got to using photos.

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It saved me the trouble of
dealing with other people.

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If I needed models or anything, I could,

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you didn\'t have to get
someone to be there.

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It simplified things.

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I would just pick out different figures

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from different photos I\'ve taken

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and sort of put them in different places,

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tried doing sort of an
expressionistic style.

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It wasn\'t photographic

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and most of the paintings
ended up a disaster.

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(laughing)

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I still have a few left

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where you can see that I\'ve
painted out some figures

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and changed others and not finished \'em.

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This is one,

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a painting I probably
did in the early 60s,

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I use photographs and my memory

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and just would just sort of make marks

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and have them suggest things,

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I mean, it\'s completely
different than what I do now.

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I experimented with everything.

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I didn\'t know what I really wanted to do

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or what I could succeed with.

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I worked in advertising and so
this limited amount of time,

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usually just maybe on Saturdays
and Sundays on the weekend,

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I would try to do some painting.

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That\'s about all I could do.

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(upbeat music)

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The magazine I worked for the most

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is called \"Popular Science.\"

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I used to do these little diagrams

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of how atomic power plants
where or how to tie knots.

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I really, I wanted to be a painter,

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but I really didn\'t want
to do abstract paintings

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and to be it seemed like,

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just every painting has
an abstract quality,

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but it\'s sort of incomplete.

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It\'s like writing music without a melody.

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I go to Walmart or some place like that

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and buy the cheapest, extra,
extra, extra large T-shirts

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that I can so that, they\'re plenty full

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and I wear \'em until they
get sort of dirty with paint

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and I just throw them away.

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These rails, it\'s basically,
it\'s just a mahl stick,

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a different version of a mahl stick.

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You\'ve seen the, where the
artists they have this stick

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and then you rest your hand on it,

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so you\'d have a steady touch.

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And also it\'s very architectural,

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you can have all the lines

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really like with a T square.

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It is parallel.

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You\'re not just guessing.

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I have this other stick here,

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so if I want to do horizontal things.

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Also, you can calculate your perspectives,

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if you figure out what
the vanishing point is

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and you can just

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use that.

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(upbeat music)

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- It\'s obvious he uses photographs,

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but when one sees him at work,

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when one looks closely at
the surface of his paintings,

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to me it\'s obvious they are paintings.

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They are not equivalents of photographs.

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And even the pictures that
look most photographic

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often have wonderfully soft, delicate,

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even abstracted things

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that are not totally tight perspectival.

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The photographs are literally
sketches, they\'re studies.

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They\'re pieces of something larger

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that when he\'s working on it,

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becomes something else and it\'s
that transformative process

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that makes him a serious,
significant, interesting artist.

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- This is a a beautiful
camera, it\'s called a Linhof.

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It\'s four by five.

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And I\'ve used this

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for a lot of the earlier paintings

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this is the camera that I was using.

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Then once you\'ve got the, you know,

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you\'re all set, it\'s on a
easel, it\'s sitting there,

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then you close the lens.

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Then you have to crank it

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and then you set the shutter
speed and take the picture.

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(laughing)

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You think about the pictures
really when you\'re doing it,

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because you wait for exact,
just the right moment

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to click the shutter.

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If it\'s outdoors, like
in a street situation

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\'cause you don\'t want to click it

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and then have somebody walking in front

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of the camera when it clicks.

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So you got to make sure that
everything is just right.

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I don\'t even like to
show people my photos.

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It\'s sort of like my secret sketch book.

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I\'ve got thousands and thousands of photos

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lying around in my house.

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I tried, especially with
the digital camera now,

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you press the shutter
and it takes 10 pictures,

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so you get all these slight variations

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and then you sort of piece it together.

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I sort of learned a lot of this

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when I was working as a
commercial illustrator

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where before that it was sort of a,

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it was always considered sort of a sin

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and dishonest to use photos for your work.

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There\'s a pretty famous painting by Manet

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of the the railway station
Gare Saint-Lazare in Paris

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with two girls sort of sitting.

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You can go there even
now and see the same site

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and even the place where they
were sitting in the station.

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So it was obviously
done from a photograph.

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They always denied, I
think, or never mentioned

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that Eakins and Degas and Manet,

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they all used photos as
soon as photography came,

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which was about 1840.

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1850.

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I always liked to just
walk down streets in cities

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and just not necessarily
concentrate on the grand monuments,

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but just the general streets scene

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and everyday architecture.

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It\'s what makes it really interesting.

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(upbeat music)

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It\'s essentially the
chaos at Times Square.

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Sometimes I have more trouble
with a simple blue sky

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than I have with some complicated

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highly lettered facade.

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One of the things I had
the most problem with

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were these flowers actually.

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(laughing)

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Other things were easier.

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I think this is Prince.

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He was actually performing or
doing something at that point.

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Sometimes I\'ve put things,
like there\'s this one painting

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that I did a long time ago,
it was called The Cafeteria

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and there are these red
curtains on these sides,

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that was completely made up

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because I needed some color on the side.

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- Somebody was talking to
me and they said to me,

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\"How come anytime you
mention photo realism,

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Richard Estes is the
first name that comes up?\"

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Well, that\'s just a
reflection on how good he is

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and it\'s also that there
was no self promotion.

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There was no dealer promotion really.

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You just had to love his
paintings when you saw it,

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whether the critics told you to or not,

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whether anybody told
you it was good or not.

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If you walk into a house
or someplace or a museum

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and you saw it, you marveled at it.

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(upbeat music)

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- I assumed that I would
just do the painting

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to satisfy myself and earn a
living as a commercial artist,

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but I was lucky enough that I
started selling the paintings.

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I was able to give up the commercial art.

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New York was certainly a different place

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to live in those days.

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To pay $50 a month was a lot

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To get a luxury apartment.

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You can figure out things
as much as you can,

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but sometimes it\'s just suggestion.

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I mean, I can think of
drawings and paintings

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I\'ve seen by people like Degas or Sargent

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and it\'s just a wash

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you know, there\'s no distinction
between forms or anything

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because it\'s all hidden in shadows

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and yet it looks correct.

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A painting this size I can
probably do in a couple of weeks,

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actually.

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And three or four days
just getting this far

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then the rest of the time,

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I was just sharpening up
everything and making it,

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the first coat, the first layer of paint,

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it\'s just sort of sinks
in and sort of is dead.

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But it also

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makes it soak in

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and it makes it possible
then for the next coat

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not to soak in because
it\'s already soaked in.

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- [Interviewer] So how many
coats of paint do you use?

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- Well, this would be, maybe three.

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You know, it depends.

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Some parts I may not even touch.

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But especially,

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like here, these lamps.

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I mean, here it\'s all sort of dirty

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and it needs to be cleaned up.

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(laughs)

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- [Interviewer] Do you always know

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when you\'re finished with a painting?

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- I\'m usually, I just
give up on a painting.

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I don\'t finish it.

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(laughing)

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(upbeat music)

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I think this is one of the first places

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I decided to try to paint.

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In the 60s, they had
the so called blue laws.

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Nothing could be open on Sunday,

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so you could come to Times
Square on a Sunday morning

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and it would be absolutely deserted.

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In fact, all of New York was deserted

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and that was the time I like
to go out and photograph

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and probably why in the early pictures

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there aren\'t that many figures

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\'cause there simply were not

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that many figures on the street then.

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There was another theater
up here that I painted,

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I think it was called
Hot Girls or something.

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And that\'s now, that was
bought by the shah of Iran.

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It\'s probably in the
basement of some museum

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in Tehran if they haven\'t destroyed it.

00:18:13.822 --> 00:18:15.519
(upbeat music)

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So I used to come here to draw

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because you could count on the people

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just sort of sitting still for 40 minutes.

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Whereas if you were
doing it in a restaurant

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and people are constantly
getting up and moving,

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but here in Staten Island Ferry

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they would sort of come

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and more or less stay where
they were for the journey,

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which was about half an hour.

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So I\'d have time to do a little sketch.

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This must\'ve been after 9/11

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because there\'s no World Trade Center.

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The only thing I remember
about this painting is

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to get all those colors blended
was the biggest challenge.

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The water is easy.

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I mean, you just scribble it
in and it always looks right.

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I did a lot of paintings
on the Staten Island Ferry.

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I\'m sort of obsessed with
public transportation, subways,

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the Staten Island Ferry.

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I was using slides at first.

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They didn\'t have good
color prints until the 70s.

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These you just lay on the negatives,

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you lay it on a sheet of photo paper

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and expose it and develop it.

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Then you have all these
pictures and you cut it out

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and put them together.

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Sometimes I would just
take out a few pictures

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that I had assembled on in the folders

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and just the ones that I thought
had the best possibilities

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and put them in a separate envelope

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with the picture on
the outside, the proof,

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and inside are the negatives
to make larger prints

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that I would use to work from.

00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:36.783
Here you can see there\'s
one photo taken using,

00:20:38.310 --> 00:20:42.293
out the window and then the inside,

00:20:43.760 --> 00:20:45.173
so they don\'t really,

00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:51.083
you don\'t see this, if
you\'re seeing this really.

00:20:53.120 --> 00:20:55.443
Or exactly that perspective.

00:20:55.444 --> 00:20:58.473
(upbeat music)

00:20:58.474 --> 00:21:01.149
I think from the very
beginning they always thought

00:21:01.150 --> 00:21:02.649
I was a little bit strange.

00:21:02.650 --> 00:21:04.709
Like I used to remember putting on

00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:07.568
my mother\'s high heels when I was four.

00:21:07.569 --> 00:21:09.902
(laughing)

00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:16.300
I don\'t think my family ever
really recognized anything.

00:21:16.610 --> 00:21:20.583
They sort of, probably was
in the back of their minds,

00:21:22.084 --> 00:21:23.793
but they never said anything.

00:21:24.780 --> 00:21:27.839
When I was a sophomore in high school,

00:21:27.840 --> 00:21:31.889
we moved to Evanston, a suburb of Chicago.

00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:36.890
The high school there had a
really great art department.

00:21:37.478 --> 00:21:39.509
I was always the artist

00:21:39.510 --> 00:21:42.649
and the one that was asked to decorate

00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:47.650
if they had a prom or some
sort of play or performance.

00:21:48.310 --> 00:21:53.310
I was really a loner actually,
I didn\'t have any friends

00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:55.593
To speak of in high school,

00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:58.989
which is why I think I
got interested in art

00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:01.339
and music in the first place.

00:22:01.340 --> 00:22:03.059
I liked to go to the library

00:22:03.060 --> 00:22:06.339
and they had a beautiful
library in Evanston

00:22:06.340 --> 00:22:10.933
where you could take out
records, for example.

00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.079
\'Cause I, you know, growing
up in Sheffield, Illinois,

00:22:15.080 --> 00:22:19.863
I\'d never heard anything
like Wagner or Beethoven.

00:22:21.947 --> 00:22:24.163
If we had stayed there,

00:22:25.670 --> 00:22:29.629
I never would have, I
might be operating a garage

00:22:29.630 --> 00:22:30.750
like my father did.

00:22:30.751 --> 00:22:33.100
(laughing)

00:22:33.101 --> 00:22:34.329
When I got out of high school,

00:22:34.330 --> 00:22:36.909
I decided I wanted to go to Europe,

00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:38.029
but I didn\'t have the money,

00:22:38.030 --> 00:22:41.260
so actually I worked for one year

00:22:42.557 --> 00:22:46.529
as a file clerk, putting
things away was miserable,

00:22:46.530 --> 00:22:48.890
but I did manage to save enough money

00:22:49.760 --> 00:22:52.043
to take this trip to Europe.

00:22:53.620 --> 00:22:57.929
So that\'s where I went to
a lot of great museums.

00:22:57.930 --> 00:23:00.799
I had planned on staying
well into the fall,

00:23:00.800 --> 00:23:05.800
but I got rather homesick,
decided to go back home.

00:23:06.520 --> 00:23:08.329
I think it was mid September.

00:23:08.330 --> 00:23:12.499
I had money left that I
didn\'t spend in Europe.

00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:14.509
After I returned from Europe,

00:23:14.510 --> 00:23:17.369
I went to the Chicago Art Institute.

00:23:17.370 --> 00:23:20.274
One of the best parts of
going to the Art Institute

00:23:20.275 --> 00:23:22.579
was the fact that you were actually

00:23:22.580 --> 00:23:24.443
just there in the galleries.

00:23:26.030 --> 00:23:27.899
I had an etching class, for example,

00:23:27.900 --> 00:23:29.649
which was right upstairs.

00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:31.479
You just went up sort of a back stairway

00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.373
from one of the main galleries.

00:23:35.350 --> 00:23:38.469
Going to art school, made it a routine,

00:23:38.470 --> 00:23:41.439
a habit to draw and to paint.

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.909
And we had different
people, visiting artists.

00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:46.879
I remember once there was this,

00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:51.880
I think Jack Levine and I
remember him talking about this,

00:23:52.130 --> 00:23:55.369
I think it was the Caravaggio
or attributed to Caravaggio

00:23:55.370 --> 00:24:00.370
and criticizing it because
Caravaggio\'s ascending Christ

00:24:01.402 --> 00:24:04.679
had no place to ascend from or something.

00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.703
It was, you know, the space was not right.

00:24:07.704 --> 00:24:09.406
(laughing)

00:24:09.407 --> 00:24:10.380
(upbeat music)

00:24:10.381 --> 00:24:14.089
- Edward Hopper\'s \"Nighthawks\"
is the most famous

00:24:14.090 --> 00:24:18.433
early 20th century American
work in the Art Institute.

00:24:19.333 --> 00:24:21.789
And \"Nighthawks\" has a glass window,

00:24:21.790 --> 00:24:25.559
it has figures seated at a cafe counter.

00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:27.769
It\'s about reflections.

00:24:27.770 --> 00:24:29.509
It\'s about light and dark.

00:24:29.510 --> 00:24:33.659
And of course it\'s a touchstone
for a lot of Richard\'s work.

00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:37.139
In the permanent collection of early art

00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:39.069
there would be a natural source

00:24:39.070 --> 00:24:42.939
for what finally shaped both
his style, working methods

00:24:42.940 --> 00:24:45.019
and modes of composition.

00:24:45.020 --> 00:24:48.859
18th century Italian art,
Bellotto to an extent,

00:24:48.860 --> 00:24:52.089
but particularly, not
surprisingly, Canaletto,

00:24:52.090 --> 00:24:55.055
with his precision, with
his views of Venice,

00:24:55.056 --> 00:24:58.557
places that Richard had begun to visit.

00:24:58.558 --> 00:25:02.039
- Canaletto, I think his
son in law was Bellotto.

00:25:02.040 --> 00:25:03.559
I sort of prefer Bellotto,

00:25:03.560 --> 00:25:07.853
but Canaletto, is by far the most famous.

00:25:10.820 --> 00:25:14.703
I just consider myself
an old fashion realist.

00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.189
I think if Canaletto we\'re living today

00:25:19.190 --> 00:25:22.283
and painting pictures, they\'d
look a little bit like mine

00:25:22.284 --> 00:25:24.603
because that\'s what it looks like.

00:25:26.939 --> 00:25:29.689
(camera beeping)

00:25:36.050 --> 00:25:37.519
- [Interviewer] You would
never take your easel out

00:25:37.520 --> 00:25:40.789
and sort of set it up on the
sidewalk or even a sketchbook.

00:25:40.790 --> 00:25:42.123
- It would be a nightmare.

00:25:43.148 --> 00:25:44.590
Can you imagine?

00:25:44.591 --> 00:25:47.623
Dealing with wind, curious tourists,

00:25:48.600 --> 00:25:53.513
crazy people trying to get
something or sell you something.

00:25:54.940 --> 00:25:57.209
I don\'t even want anybody in my studio

00:25:57.210 --> 00:26:02.210
let alone these out doors
with the whole world looking.

00:26:03.430 --> 00:26:05.949
For the most part,
probably just ignoring me.

00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:09.382
In New York you can do just about anything

00:26:09.383 --> 00:26:13.697
and nobody pays any attention.

00:26:32.560 --> 00:26:36.753
These are my basic colors,
probably about 12 colors I use.

00:26:43.533 --> 00:26:47.950
And just started this a
couple of weeks ago actually.

00:26:50.270 --> 00:26:54.447
It\'s about four days worth I\'d say.

00:26:54.448 --> 00:26:56.045
It\'s the underpainting.

00:26:56.046 --> 00:26:59.149
It\'s just to get the drawing

00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:02.833
and the basic values and colors.

00:27:04.510 --> 00:27:07.299
And the composition,

00:27:07.300 --> 00:27:11.719
and once I figure that out,

00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.719
then I ordered stretchers and stretch it,

00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:17.599
which means all of these lines

00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:20.279
that I so carefully made straight

00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:22.169
sometimes get shifted around

00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:24.900
because when you\'re stretching the canvas

00:27:26.164 --> 00:27:27.879
you pull it.

00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:32.880
So it\'s always has to
be redone a little bit.

00:27:32.983 --> 00:27:36.066
(upbeat jazz music)

00:28:36.470 --> 00:28:39.349
- [John] Craft alone
doesn\'t make a great artist.

00:28:39.350 --> 00:28:43.949
It\'s the combination of
intellect, of imagination.

00:28:43.950 --> 00:28:46.942
In a way he teaches you how to see

00:28:46.943 --> 00:28:50.873
and perceive the familiar in new ways.

00:28:50.874 --> 00:28:55.409
His tricks of painting window
surfaces that both reflect

00:28:55.410 --> 00:28:58.159
and are transparent simultaneously

00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.969
when you engage those passages,

00:29:00.970 --> 00:29:04.450
they\'re stimulating to
the mind, to the brain.

00:29:04.451 --> 00:29:07.118
(upbeat music)

00:29:16.052 --> 00:29:18.275
- But then I came across another one

00:29:18.276 --> 00:29:20.729
that I was particularly interested in

00:29:20.730 --> 00:29:24.166
about this car reflection.
- This painting.

00:29:24.167 --> 00:29:25.635
But it\'s upside down.

00:29:25.636 --> 00:29:28.329
- Yes, I know, but...
- That\'s the way it should be,

00:29:28.330 --> 00:29:30.209
- I know when I went to work

00:29:30.210 --> 00:29:32.539
for the Indianapolis Museum of Art,

00:29:32.540 --> 00:29:35.746
I went into the galleries and I said,

00:29:35.747 --> 00:29:37.289
\"The painting is upside down.\"

00:29:37.290 --> 00:29:38.779
So they said, no, it wasn\'t upside down,

00:29:38.780 --> 00:29:40.729
but it was upside down.

00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:42.600
- All this is a reflection of...

00:29:42.601 --> 00:29:44.169
- Of that.
- Of the hood, of the car.

00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:46.339
- Yeah, yeah.
- You can see it\'s backwards.

00:29:46.340 --> 00:29:47.499
- So have you had that happen

00:29:47.500 --> 00:29:49.523
with other of your works?

00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.142
- No, actually, this is,

00:29:52.143 --> 00:29:53.889
it\'s sort of tricky this one.

00:29:53.890 --> 00:29:56.473
You can see why they\'d
make that mistake actually.

00:30:00.510 --> 00:30:01.622
- [Interviewer] When did you start

00:30:01.623 --> 00:30:05.539
becoming really interested
in painting reflections?

00:30:05.540 --> 00:30:06.373
- Well, I don\'t know.

00:30:06.374 --> 00:30:07.929
I think we were still living

00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.099
in the period of abstract expressionism.

00:30:11.100 --> 00:30:14.609
I was thinking well, this
is a way to sort of be

00:30:14.610 --> 00:30:19.563
abstract expressionist, at
the same time super realism.

00:30:23.410 --> 00:30:26.688
You see this single figure
there, there, and there,

00:30:26.689 --> 00:30:29.879
three times again, using reflection,

00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:31.609
which is terribly interesting to Richard.

00:30:31.610 --> 00:30:33.199
In many ways he always
thinks that a reflection

00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:36.859
is somehow realer to him than the object

00:30:36.860 --> 00:30:39.539
that might be being reflected
and the world around him.

00:30:39.540 --> 00:30:42.139
And as you can see very
carefully and meticulously paints

00:30:42.140 --> 00:30:45.239
the same level of detail
of the undulating surface

00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.332
of the flat iron building
at the edge of that mirror.

00:30:48.333 --> 00:30:51.000
(upbeat music)

00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.839
- Your eye tends to filter.

00:31:02.840 --> 00:31:05.249
When you look at something,

00:31:05.250 --> 00:31:08.879
you decide to look at certain objects

00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.764
and so your mind puts out...

00:31:10.765 --> 00:31:13.089
- The rest of the information.
- The rest of it,

00:31:13.090 --> 00:31:15.419
but that\'s what is actually out there.

00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:17.745
Maybe that\'s what I meant with,

00:31:17.746 --> 00:31:21.579
if I said that the reflection is truer,

00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:23.540
because then it shows you everything

00:31:25.625 --> 00:31:28.619
if that\'s in the mind,
it\'s not in the reflection.

00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:32.108
- So the camera can do a
better job of capturing reality

00:31:32.109 --> 00:31:33.763
than a memory can.

00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:36.809
- Well, yeah, in a way,

00:31:36.810 --> 00:31:39.593
because it focuses evenly on everything.

00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:48.019
One of my teachers at the Art
Institute used to say was,

00:31:48.020 --> 00:31:50.989
you have to be careful
with your perspective.

00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:53.769
It goes in, you know,
something draws your eye in

00:31:53.770 --> 00:31:56.159
and them you have to have
something counteracting that

00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.029
to go out again, so you don\'t get stuck

00:31:59.030 --> 00:32:00.703
at the vanishing point.

00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:06.019
So that\'s one of the
functions of the reflections

00:32:06.020 --> 00:32:11.020
in a way is it goes in and
then the other part comes out.

00:32:11.429 --> 00:32:14.096
(upbeat music)

00:32:17.260 --> 00:32:20.564
New York was the place to be.

00:32:20.565 --> 00:32:22.049
(laughing)

00:32:22.050 --> 00:32:24.349
Maybe that\'s why I came
to New York actually,

00:32:24.350 --> 00:32:25.539
not for art or anything,

00:32:25.540 --> 00:32:30.503
but to live the lifestyle.

00:32:32.610 --> 00:32:34.993
You had to be more careful in those days.

00:32:37.443 --> 00:32:40.209
I had many relationships in my life,

00:32:40.210 --> 00:32:44.420
but I think the first serious
one was with Jose Saenz

00:32:45.340 --> 00:32:50.033
who I met in early, the 70s, around 71.

00:32:51.035 --> 00:32:53.319
- I loved Jose, everybody loved Jose.

00:32:53.320 --> 00:32:56.839
Jose was just an extraordinary person.

00:32:56.840 --> 00:32:59.649
So friendly and warm.,

00:32:59.650 --> 00:33:01.300
I mean, he was part of the scene.

00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:11.059
- I had a job with this advertising agency

00:33:11.060 --> 00:33:12.352
and they fired me.

00:33:12.353 --> 00:33:15.407
(laughing)

00:33:15.408 --> 00:33:19.470
And so I got unemployment
for about six months,

00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:23.749
and finally I got enough
money to sort of survive

00:33:23.750 --> 00:33:24.610
for a little bit.

00:33:24.611 --> 00:33:25.859
And so I did some painting,

00:33:25.860 --> 00:33:28.019
that\'s when I did these paintings,

00:33:28.020 --> 00:33:30.363
which I took around.

00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:35.113
I started on 57th
street, worked my way up.

00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:38.669
And was rejected by everyone

00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:42.339
until I got to Ivan Karp and Castelli.

00:33:42.340 --> 00:33:46.253
And Ivan was sort of
interested and Leo wasn\'t.

00:33:47.220 --> 00:33:49.449
He said his other artists wouldn\'t approve

00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:51.519
of such a realistic artist.

00:33:51.520 --> 00:33:54.753
Yeah, I really didn\'t fit in
with any of the movements.

00:33:55.991 --> 00:33:59.149
I managed to get a show with Allan Stone

00:33:59.150 --> 00:34:02.444
and they sold out the
show and that was it.

00:34:02.445 --> 00:34:03.340
(laughing)

00:34:03.341 --> 00:34:08.183
From then on, it was just
clear sailing, I guess.

00:34:09.773 --> 00:34:12.919
- Well, I was quite surprised
when the work started to sell.

00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.549
I mean, I was very gratified,
but I was surprised.

00:34:15.550 --> 00:34:17.409
It was so different.

00:34:17.410 --> 00:34:21.089
Richard, you know, don\'t forget
here you have this extremely

00:34:21.090 --> 00:34:24.090
the photo realistic work coming

00:34:24.980 --> 00:34:27.639
and being shown at a time
when people were still talking

00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:29.992
about abstract expressionism

00:34:29.993 --> 00:34:32.269
and the work was totally different

00:34:32.270 --> 00:34:35.329
from almost anything else that was around.

00:34:35.330 --> 00:34:38.119
- People were really taken with this work.

00:34:38.120 --> 00:34:41.029
I mean, it was huge.

00:34:41.030 --> 00:34:42.253
It was exciting.

00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:45.429
The phone was ringing off
the hook at the gallery.

00:34:45.430 --> 00:34:47.559
People were dying to come
in and look at the work,

00:34:47.560 --> 00:34:49.871
buy a painting, etc.

00:34:49.872 --> 00:34:52.689
It was very, it was a big deal.

00:34:52.690 --> 00:34:55.629
Richard was as surprised
as Allan was in a way.

00:34:55.630 --> 00:34:58.896
I mean, it was having tremendous impact.

00:34:58.897 --> 00:34:59.979
(upbeat music)

00:34:59.980 --> 00:35:02.959
- I think maybe people
had a hunger for realism

00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:04.650
or something, I don\'t know.

00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:09.629
There was that telephone booth painting.

00:35:09.630 --> 00:35:12.919
That started as an illustration

00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:16.479
that I was hired by the \"Reader\'s Digest\"

00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:21.480
to illustrate this book,
which was called \"Vanished.\"

00:35:28.080 --> 00:35:33.080
One of the scenes was
just one telephone booth

00:35:33.140 --> 00:35:35.029
with a person calling,

00:35:35.030 --> 00:35:37.669
But then I said, well, that
might be an interesting painting

00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:39.929
just to sort of abstract,

00:35:39.930 --> 00:35:42.809
but at the same time it\'s
completely realistic.

00:35:42.810 --> 00:35:45.659
There was one of an automat.

00:35:45.660 --> 00:35:47.869
It\'s one of the old automats

00:35:47.870 --> 00:35:51.163
that used to be all over New York City.

00:35:53.530 --> 00:35:56.729
I think that\'s one of the
reasons they went out of business

00:35:56.730 --> 00:36:00.749
because people would go and
buy a five cent cup of coffee

00:36:00.750 --> 00:36:03.069
and just sit there all day long.

00:36:03.070 --> 00:36:08.070
I decided at one point
to give it to my mother

00:36:08.580 --> 00:36:10.969
who lived in California,

00:36:10.970 --> 00:36:12.809
but in order to get it to California,

00:36:12.810 --> 00:36:16.269
it was too big to ship on the airplane,

00:36:16.270 --> 00:36:19.531
so I cut it into four equal parts

00:36:19.532 --> 00:36:22.070
so it was about the size of the suitcase

00:36:22.071 --> 00:36:24.389
and took it on the airplane with me

00:36:24.390 --> 00:36:26.939
and then when I got to California,

00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.477
I took it out, put it back together,

00:36:29.478 --> 00:36:32.649
and it stayed with my
mother until she died

00:36:32.650 --> 00:36:34.201
and then I brought it here.

00:36:34.202 --> 00:36:36.869
(upbeat music)

00:36:55.020 --> 00:37:00.020
I simply couldn\'t deal with
the lithographic technique,

00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:03.749
saw some prints in the
silk screen technique

00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:07.773
and I think maybe that
would be a possibility.

00:37:08.700 --> 00:37:12.379
So we found this printer
in Germany, Domberger,

00:37:12.380 --> 00:37:15.141
and found out that yeah,
I feel this sort of,

00:37:15.142 --> 00:37:18.409
that\'s the way I prefer to make prints.

00:37:18.410 --> 00:37:21.649
- I first met Richard in 1971

00:37:21.650 --> 00:37:24.829
and I was a Helena Rubinstein
Fellow at the Whitney Museum.

00:37:24.830 --> 00:37:27.139
He was at the beginning of his career.

00:37:27.140 --> 00:37:31.619
Richard was included in Jim
Monte\'s 22 Realists exhibition

00:37:31.620 --> 00:37:34.179
at the Whitney Museum,
which was a key factor

00:37:34.180 --> 00:37:36.423
in getting him out there in the public.

00:37:37.289 --> 00:37:40.849
At the time that I was at
the Whitney was Phil Glass

00:37:40.850 --> 00:37:43.229
and Laurie Anderson, people like that.

00:37:43.230 --> 00:37:45.239
And Richard didn\'t belong to those groups.

00:37:45.240 --> 00:37:48.479
He kind of belonged outside of that.

00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:50.379
And he worked very well at that.

00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:52.083
I mean, he had friends,

00:37:52.084 --> 00:37:55.539
Audrey Flack and the
photo realist Chuck Close

00:37:55.540 --> 00:37:57.489
and people like that.

00:37:57.490 --> 00:37:58.323
- The photo realists,

00:37:58.324 --> 00:38:00.669
they have to work eight, 10 hours a day

00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:02.469
to produce what they do.

00:38:02.470 --> 00:38:05.569
They don\'t drink, they don\'t
smoke, they don\'t get divorced,

00:38:05.570 --> 00:38:07.749
they don\'t get into scandals.

00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:10.169
They\'re a completely
different breed of artist.

00:38:10.170 --> 00:38:13.259
- The photo realists were
pretty much the same generation,

00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.969
actually did exchange ideas,
went to each other\'s openings,

00:38:16.970 --> 00:38:21.109
tended to know each other\'s
work, remain friends, et cetera.

00:38:21.110 --> 00:38:22.930
So there was more of a collegiality

00:38:24.429 --> 00:38:27.096
(upbeat music)

00:38:37.030 --> 00:38:42.030
- Salvador Dali was very
encouraging towards me actually.

00:38:42.930 --> 00:38:46.393
He invited me and introduced
me to all of these people.

00:38:47.449 --> 00:38:49.613
It was the Warhol type crowd too.

00:38:51.470 --> 00:38:54.749
I think every Sunday,
it was at Trader Vic\'s,

00:38:54.750 --> 00:38:56.909
it was in the Plaza hotel

00:38:56.910 --> 00:38:59.709
and there\'d probably be 30 or 40 people.

00:38:59.710 --> 00:39:02.739
He would line people up,
talk to someone for a while

00:39:02.740 --> 00:39:05.219
and then he said, disappear.

00:39:05.220 --> 00:39:08.959
And so somebody else
would be put next to him.

00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:13.629
I remember he came to, I was
at the Biennial at the Whitney,

00:39:13.630 --> 00:39:16.149
looked at my paintings but he refused

00:39:16.150 --> 00:39:19.389
to look at anybody
else, any of the others.

00:39:19.390 --> 00:39:20.890
So that was rather flattering.

00:39:21.917 --> 00:39:24.334
(chattering)

00:39:48.720 --> 00:39:52.689
- Richard Estes is one of the
great painters working today.

00:39:52.690 --> 00:39:55.151
He\'s doing something
that\'s very difficult,

00:39:55.152 --> 00:39:59.449
very challenging, Very
few artists can do it.

00:39:59.450 --> 00:40:03.489
Hopper was a master of
it, he is a master of it.

00:40:03.490 --> 00:40:07.449
He is what I call an
indoor/outdoor painter,

00:40:07.450 --> 00:40:09.645
which is very difficult to do.

00:40:09.646 --> 00:40:14.646
He convincingly conveys
the interior of the subway,

00:40:15.290 --> 00:40:20.290
at the same time, this
beautiful exterior of New York.

00:40:21.210 --> 00:40:24.126
And one of the things
I love about this is,

00:40:24.127 --> 00:40:28.039
and many of us have seen
this, this monument.

00:40:28.040 --> 00:40:31.169
Is his command of texture.

00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:35.209
Beautiful bronze, cold marble,

00:40:35.210 --> 00:40:39.493
a beautiful evocative sky.

00:40:43.650 --> 00:40:46.169
- So it\'s one of the first
of his portraits effectively.

00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:47.809
He\'s made portraits of figures

00:40:47.810 --> 00:40:49.853
that kind of dot has work as well.

00:40:54.270 --> 00:40:58.249
- Richard, this 1979
painting of the Guggenheim

00:40:58.250 --> 00:41:00.549
is kind of a rarity in your work.

00:41:00.550 --> 00:41:03.119
It seems to me very seldom do you paint

00:41:03.120 --> 00:41:06.463
an iconic architectural
building on its own.

00:41:07.350 --> 00:41:09.599
- Well, I think it\'s
because I was commissioned.

00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:11.646
- Oh, you were commissioned?
- Commissioned to do it, yeah.

00:41:11.647 --> 00:41:13.539
- How did that come about?
- Most of the commissions

00:41:13.540 --> 00:41:15.519
I\'ve had-
- Were early on.

00:41:15.520 --> 00:41:17.369
- When they were finished,

00:41:17.370 --> 00:41:20.981
the collector had either
changed his mind or her mind-

00:41:20.982 --> 00:41:21.840
- And didn\'t want it.

00:41:21.841 --> 00:41:23.224
- Or had gone bankrupt or something.

00:41:23.225 --> 00:41:25.159
(laughing)

00:41:25.160 --> 00:41:29.439
I had an exhibition
that traveled in Japan.

00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.249
So I was there, I think
a year before the exhibit

00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:33.629
to get material.

00:41:33.630 --> 00:41:38.459
Took photographs, because they
wanted me to do a painting

00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:42.109
for the Hiroshima museum, which I did,

00:41:42.110 --> 00:41:44.403
but then there was a currency crisis.

00:41:45.330 --> 00:41:46.689
They didn\'t have any money,

00:41:46.690 --> 00:41:48.509
they couldn\'t afford the painting,

00:41:48.510 --> 00:41:51.124
so I still have it here myself.

00:41:51.125 --> 00:41:54.209
(upbeat music)

00:41:54.210 --> 00:41:57.559
A friend, I knew this woman, famous woman,

00:41:57.560 --> 00:41:59.999
Marguerite Yourcenar, French author,

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:03.219
was elected into the French Academy.

00:42:03.220 --> 00:42:07.639
And part of being elected
in the French Academy

00:42:07.640 --> 00:42:10.489
is that you have your portrait painted.

00:42:10.490 --> 00:42:14.399
So she asked me if I would
like to do the portrait,

00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:15.413
which I did.

00:42:18.429 --> 00:42:20.920
Then I did I.M Pei.

00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:26.860
Usually if you do a portrait
of someone, they don\'t like it.

00:42:27.170 --> 00:42:31.389
Somehow nobody really
knows what they look like

00:42:31.390 --> 00:42:34.289
and they think they look different
than what they really do.

00:42:34.290 --> 00:42:39.290
And so it\'s almost impossible to satisfy.

00:43:05.950 --> 00:43:07.654
Well, here we are.
- Hello.

00:43:07.655 --> 00:43:08.488
(laughing)

00:43:08.488 --> 00:43:09.470
Good to see you.

00:43:09.471 --> 00:43:11.487
- How many years ago was that?

00:43:11.488 --> 00:43:14.083
- Well, it was, you think 30?

00:43:14.084 --> 00:43:19.084
Now remind me of why
this spot was so special.

00:43:20.890 --> 00:43:24.829
Church painted his view
of Cadillac Mountain.

00:43:24.830 --> 00:43:26.509
And it\'s in the Boston Museum.

00:43:26.510 --> 00:43:28.429
I just saw it a couple of weeks ago.

00:43:28.430 --> 00:43:30.207
- Oh, well, I have to go see that.

00:43:30.208 --> 00:43:33.460
- Richards\' appreciation of nature

00:43:34.550 --> 00:43:38.419
is as astute and scrupulous,

00:43:38.420 --> 00:43:41.049
when he observes things in the city,

00:43:41.050 --> 00:43:44.349
he is really observing things in the city.

00:43:44.350 --> 00:43:48.399
But after he moved to Mount Desert,

00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:53.400
he applied the same skills and
observation to that geography

00:43:54.470 --> 00:43:56.680
as he did to New York.

00:43:56.681 --> 00:43:59.348
(upbeat music)

00:44:11.922 --> 00:44:13.499
- There were moments in his career

00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:15.169
when he painted landscape.

00:44:15.170 --> 00:44:16.949
I think we tend to forget that.

00:44:16.950 --> 00:44:19.199
The most important and
most beautiful picture

00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:22.422
is in the earlier work, Central Park,

00:44:22.423 --> 00:44:26.689
where the figures are lounging
on the edge of the lake

00:44:26.690 --> 00:44:28.099
on the rocky shore.

00:44:28.100 --> 00:44:29.309
And you can tell that

00:44:29.310 --> 00:44:32.839
it\'s sort of a warm spring or summer day.

00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:35.779
It\'s got what I would call
a Richard subject matter,

00:44:35.780 --> 00:44:38.427
that\'s to say he\'s fascinated with light.

00:44:38.428 --> 00:44:41.229
There\'s water and that, for me,

00:44:41.230 --> 00:44:44.579
was the first real continuity,

00:44:44.580 --> 00:44:49.580
that water is not that
different from glass.

00:44:49.730 --> 00:44:50.909
It\'s another form.

00:44:50.910 --> 00:44:55.359
Gave him, I think, a
kind of way of beginning

00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:58.279
to paint around the Maine landscape.

00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:02.276
To me, probably the greatest
work he\'s painted here

00:45:02.277 --> 00:45:04.839
is the \"Water Taxi\".

00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:06.269
It\'s a wonderful painting

00:45:06.270 --> 00:45:10.199
where he was able to
bring together the figures

00:45:10.200 --> 00:45:12.149
with a kind of interior.

00:45:12.150 --> 00:45:16.979
And of course the water taxi
has glass and plexi windows,

00:45:16.980 --> 00:45:19.763
so there\'s a Richard subject there.

00:45:23.990 --> 00:45:27.513
- Richard is very well
respected in this area of Maine.

00:45:28.640 --> 00:45:30.099
He\'s pretty private up here.

00:45:30.100 --> 00:45:32.799
He prefers to be private up here.

00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:36.003
He\'s kind of an uncle to
me really at this point.

00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:39.293
I\'ve known him about 40 years or so now.

00:45:40.230 --> 00:45:42.049
It was a summertime job

00:45:42.050 --> 00:45:46.579
and I worked right up until
school started in the fall

00:45:46.580 --> 00:45:49.119
mowing lawns, helping with the gardens

00:45:49.120 --> 00:45:52.357
and it just grew into this
huge maintenance nightmare.

00:45:52.358 --> 00:45:54.998
(laughing)

00:45:54.999 --> 00:45:57.916
(soft piano music)

00:46:00.804 --> 00:46:04.435
Jose was so large,

00:46:04.436 --> 00:46:07.759
a large person, I don\'t know
how else to describe it.

00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:09.789
I mostly dealt with him.

00:46:09.790 --> 00:46:11.563
I knew Richard on the side

00:46:11.564 --> 00:46:14.683
and what I knew about him was from Jose.

00:46:16.630 --> 00:46:19.729
- I did a portrait of
Jose when he was sick,

00:46:19.730 --> 00:46:21.769
actually quite sick.

00:46:21.770 --> 00:46:23.359
He was working in the garden

00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:26.863
and I took some photos
and made a portrait.

00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.809
Well, he just was not feeling
well or strange things,

00:46:32.810 --> 00:46:35.269
and he just kept getting sicker

00:46:35.270 --> 00:46:37.449
and they didn\'t know what to do.

00:46:37.450 --> 00:46:41.139
So we went and had the
test and he was positive.

00:46:41.140 --> 00:46:44.343
He got AIDS and, well, he died in 92.

00:46:50.700 --> 00:46:55.700
I lost just about all my close
friends to AIDS at that time.

00:46:57.050 --> 00:46:59.967
Everybody, it was a wipe out.

00:47:06.879 --> 00:47:08.809
- I remember after Jose died,

00:47:08.810 --> 00:47:12.149
I thought he\'s never going
to eat a good meal again.

00:47:12.150 --> 00:47:14.219
But he took out the cookbooks

00:47:14.220 --> 00:47:16.419
and started learning how to cook

00:47:16.420 --> 00:47:18.859
and he\'s a pretty good cook, you know.

00:47:18.860 --> 00:47:20.129
I wouldn\'t turn down a meal

00:47:20.130 --> 00:47:22.329
if Richard invited me to dinner.

00:47:22.330 --> 00:47:25.733
So his sense of curiosity is unparalleled.

00:47:37.200 --> 00:47:41.659
- One of the unique qualities is,

00:47:41.660 --> 00:47:44.140
I think it\'s necessary for a painter

00:47:44.990 --> 00:47:49.990
or an artist is that they
have to work by themselves.

00:47:53.140 --> 00:47:54.979
When I\'m working I\'m by myself,

00:47:54.980 --> 00:47:57.963
I don\'t want anybody around helping me.

00:47:58.950 --> 00:48:01.713
I don\'t want to have a
studio with assistants.

00:48:04.558 --> 00:48:07.159
I just do it myself,
I\'m not an art director.

00:48:07.160 --> 00:48:08.683
I\'m a painter.

00:48:09.740 --> 00:48:14.049
- One of the reasons Allan
actually brought him up to Maine

00:48:14.050 --> 00:48:16.929
was because he cared about him enough

00:48:16.930 --> 00:48:20.899
so that he felt he wanted
him to come up here

00:48:20.900 --> 00:48:22.409
and have more time to work

00:48:22.410 --> 00:48:25.539
and have a beautiful place to work.

00:48:25.540 --> 00:48:28.179
And they made this amazing trade

00:48:28.180 --> 00:48:32.369
where the house that
we had been living in,

00:48:32.370 --> 00:48:34.889
Allan decided that it might be something

00:48:34.890 --> 00:48:36.383
that could work for Richard.

00:48:38.060 --> 00:48:39.829
And they ended up trading

00:48:39.830 --> 00:48:42.349
and I can\'t remember
the number of pictures

00:48:42.350 --> 00:48:43.859
he traded for the house.

00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:46.759
I\'m not sure.

00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:48.409
- I\'d probably been here 10 years

00:48:48.410 --> 00:48:51.523
before I actually did a Maine scene.

00:48:53.071 --> 00:48:57.169
When I work I really don\'t
think about the subject matter

00:48:57.170 --> 00:48:58.409
that much anyhow.

00:48:58.410 --> 00:49:01.513
It\'s usually just how to render things,

00:49:02.976 --> 00:49:07.413
and so sort of make it look
like what it should look like.

00:49:09.160 --> 00:49:11.349
- [Interviewer] So is
it more the challenge

00:49:11.350 --> 00:49:13.909
to see if you can execute something that-

00:49:13.910 --> 00:49:14.949
- Sort of, yeah.

00:49:14.950 --> 00:49:15.950
It\'s like a,

00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.571
like a basketball player.

00:49:20.572 --> 00:49:22.059
(laughing)

00:49:22.060 --> 00:49:23.454
The challenge of going through the hoop.

00:49:23.455 --> 00:49:26.122
(upbeat music)

00:49:45.843 --> 00:49:47.709
My excuse for going is

00:49:47.710 --> 00:49:52.103
I\'m looking for material to work from.

00:49:53.290 --> 00:49:57.293
So I always take a lot of
photos and I do paintings.

00:50:01.160 --> 00:50:03.189
- [John] Richard loves to travel.

00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:05.483
Been to Japan, all over Europe.

00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.253
One major connection is really water.

00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.699
There are the paintings
crossing Lake Champlain,

00:50:15.700 --> 00:50:19.303
the Sea of Marmara,
the Venetian paintings.

00:50:20.330 --> 00:50:21.979
- If I\'m traveling,

00:50:21.980 --> 00:50:25.465
I\'ll take off a month
where I don\'t really,

00:50:25.466 --> 00:50:29.629
because it\'s not practical to
carry around, for me at least,

00:50:29.630 --> 00:50:31.269
carry around a sketchbook.

00:50:31.270 --> 00:50:33.943
I think I just don\'t enjoy sitting there

00:50:33.944 --> 00:50:38.089
with a bunch of people looking at you

00:50:38.090 --> 00:50:39.513
doing sketches or something.

00:50:40.826 --> 00:50:43.409
(upbeat music)

00:50:44.890 --> 00:50:47.343
Travel time recharges my batteries.

00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:09.999
- He has in fact painted
some of his very best

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:12.719
New York pictures here in Maine,

00:51:12.720 --> 00:51:15.829
which leads one to realize I think

00:51:15.830 --> 00:51:18.379
that he\'s painting from memory,

00:51:18.380 --> 00:51:23.380
he\'s painting from concept, from idea.

00:51:24.120 --> 00:51:26.609
To me, it\'s like an artist
he\'s very much admired,

00:51:26.610 --> 00:51:31.279
Frederic Church, who also
painted here brilliant studies,

00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.129
brilliant sketches, but
he went back to New York

00:51:34.130 --> 00:51:35.639
and painted in the studio

00:51:35.640 --> 00:51:40.113
and created what then were
called great salon paintings.

00:51:40.114 --> 00:51:43.425
In reverse, in a way what
Richard is doing here,

00:51:43.426 --> 00:51:46.359
which means the New York world

00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:50.113
where he began is now in his mind\'s eye.

00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:54.330
- Do you think you\'re painting

00:51:54.331 --> 00:51:56.763
more sort of alla prima, is it looser?

00:51:58.210 --> 00:51:59.406
- A little bit, yeah.

00:51:59.407 --> 00:52:02.943
I used to, it was a
more elaborate process.

00:52:04.347 --> 00:52:06.359
I used to do these acrylic underpaintings,

00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:07.939
but this is not acrylic.

00:52:07.940 --> 00:52:11.009
It\'s just direct oil.
- Yeah.

00:52:11.010 --> 00:52:12.253
- And in a way,

00:52:14.140 --> 00:52:16.569
I could probably get
away with just leaving it

00:52:16.570 --> 00:52:19.069
and then saying it with
my new loose style.

00:52:19.070 --> 00:52:20.179
(laughing)

00:52:20.180 --> 00:52:22.923
Forget about working anymore.

00:52:26.570 --> 00:52:29.919
- Your fundamental thing is design.

00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:32.529
I mean, it\'s all about the
design itself, it\'s composition.

00:52:32.530 --> 00:52:37.439
It\'s more than color or almost
more than subject matter.

00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:39.619
It almost doesn\'t matter
what you\'re painting

00:52:39.620 --> 00:52:41.239
as long as it\'s well designed.

00:52:41.240 --> 00:52:42.769
- Sometimes the best paintings

00:52:42.770 --> 00:52:45.347
are the ugliest things actually.

00:52:45.348 --> 00:52:46.181
(laughing)

00:52:46.182 --> 00:52:47.379
Basically I don\'t paint things

00:52:47.380 --> 00:52:48.849
because I think they\'re beautiful.

00:52:48.850 --> 00:52:50.149
Sometimes it is,

00:52:50.150 --> 00:52:52.799
but a lot of times it\'s really, you know,

00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:54.299
it\'s not the least bit,

00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:56.209
I don\'t find it the least bit attractive.

00:52:56.210 --> 00:53:01.210
Maybe it\'s a way of dealing with ugliness.

00:53:01.340 --> 00:53:03.667
You sort of execute the ugliness

00:53:03.668 --> 00:53:07.429
by turning it into something nice.

00:53:07.430 --> 00:53:10.259
There\'s nothing beautiful
about the massacres

00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:13.479
and executions that you find

00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:15.647
in an awful lot of great paintings.

00:53:23.670 --> 00:53:25.473
That\'s to lift it up just slightly.

00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:34.780
There.

00:53:35.600 --> 00:53:36.803
Okay, yeah.

00:53:37.765 --> 00:53:40.862
See how you can go up and down?

00:53:40.863 --> 00:53:41.863
With the easel.

00:53:45.051 --> 00:53:47.551
(soft music)

00:53:52.102 --> 00:53:54.899
The most difficult part is,

00:53:54.900 --> 00:53:57.319
is to get everything the right value

00:53:57.320 --> 00:53:59.599
because it\'s just a waste of time

00:53:59.600 --> 00:54:01.389
to work on a lot of details

00:54:01.390 --> 00:54:03.945
and then have it all
too dark or too light.

00:54:03.946 --> 00:54:06.549
Then you say you have to do it over again.

00:54:06.550 --> 00:54:11.200
So the first thing to
do is sort of establish

00:54:12.690 --> 00:54:14.959
the lights and the darks.

00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.796
The darks look like,

00:54:17.797 --> 00:54:21.769
like a dozen blacks,
different grays, blacks,

00:54:21.770 --> 00:54:25.909
would all look the same if
it\'s just on a white thing.

00:54:25.910 --> 00:54:28.829
It\'s only when it gets all together

00:54:28.830 --> 00:54:32.523
that you can even see a lot of the values.

00:54:36.950 --> 00:54:41.489
- I watch him develop his
paintings and his style,

00:54:41.490 --> 00:54:42.639
which is really interesting

00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:46.019
because I don\'t think a lot
of people see that side of it.

00:54:46.020 --> 00:54:48.649
To me having a construction background,

00:54:48.650 --> 00:54:50.259
you start as a framework

00:54:50.260 --> 00:54:52.889
and you build into the finished product

00:54:52.890 --> 00:54:54.019
and that\'s what Richard does.

00:54:54.020 --> 00:54:57.829
He starts and he just
pencils in a rough whatever

00:54:57.830 --> 00:55:02.790
of what he\'s going to do and
then he\'ll do a rough painting

00:55:04.020 --> 00:55:09.020
and slowly bring it to where
it\'s this glass mirror image,

00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:10.913
you know, phenomenon.

00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:15.729
It has really impressed me seeing that.

00:55:15.730 --> 00:55:18.959
And again, to me, having grown up here

00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.279
and not knowing anything
about the art world

00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:24.639
or artists and what all this is,

00:55:24.640 --> 00:55:25.863
this is just amazing.

00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:31.469
- Richard doesn\'t do a
hard sketch, pencil sketch,

00:55:31.470 --> 00:55:35.009
and finish it off to start a painting.

00:55:35.010 --> 00:55:38.939
What Richard does is starts
very loose and tightens up

00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:41.189
and he tightens up as he goes along.

00:55:41.190 --> 00:55:43.839
And it\'s much easier
for him to work that way

00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.459
and it\'s much faster I believe
for Richard to work that way,

00:55:46.460 --> 00:55:50.079
but that\'s, I think a
very different approach.

00:55:50.080 --> 00:55:51.709
- [Richard] Right now the
one I\'m working on now

00:55:51.710 --> 00:55:54.559
is just the first layer
and it\'s the worst.

00:55:54.560 --> 00:55:59.560
You just get everything
basically laid out.

00:56:00.180 --> 00:56:03.259
And then to finish it up,

00:56:03.260 --> 00:56:07.833
it gets a little more
pleasurable and a little easier.

00:56:09.540 --> 00:56:10.859
- [Interviewer] So it\'s the beginning part

00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:12.549
in a way that\'s hardest?

00:56:12.550 --> 00:56:13.853
- In a way, yeah.

00:56:15.750 --> 00:56:18.659
Even just deciding on
what to do is sort of,

00:56:18.660 --> 00:56:21.939
I could spend a week just
saying, oh, should I do this

00:56:21.940 --> 00:56:23.496
or should I do that?

00:56:23.497 --> 00:56:26.018
(laughs)

00:56:26.019 --> 00:56:28.686
(upbeat music)

00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:42.879
- The bottom line is that Richard

00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:47.880
is still among the top three
most famous photo realists.

00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:52.819
And he got there purely on
the value and importance

00:56:52.820 --> 00:56:54.949
and beauty of his work

00:56:54.950 --> 00:56:56.709
without anybody having to say anything.

00:56:56.710 --> 00:56:59.369
That\'s what\'s remarkable about him.

00:56:59.370 --> 00:57:01.229
Recently about a year ago, we had a party

00:57:01.230 --> 00:57:04.369
and Richard was here with a
number of the newer realists

00:57:04.370 --> 00:57:06.479
who were just thrilled and fascinated

00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:08.330
that they could be here with Richard.

00:57:10.130 --> 00:57:11.799
- Yeah, I have this little Foundation

00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:15.209
where I invite different
realists up to Maine.

00:57:15.210 --> 00:57:18.349
Where we try not necessarily
to do young painters.

00:57:18.350 --> 00:57:19.872
- [Interviewer] Yeah, of course.

00:57:19.873 --> 00:57:23.649
- This emphasis, the way
these galleries now days,

00:57:23.650 --> 00:57:25.019
apparently they\'re going off

00:57:25.020 --> 00:57:29.069
and looking for young stars all the time,

00:57:29.070 --> 00:57:34.070
but to be a good painter it
takes probably about 12 years.

00:57:34.130 --> 00:57:36.339
I started the Acadia Foundation.

00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:39.838
I\'ve sort of modeled on
The McDowell Foundation.

00:57:39.839 --> 00:57:44.549
The idea was to provide
artists with a studio

00:57:44.550 --> 00:57:47.329
and the opportunity to work.

00:57:47.330 --> 00:57:50.830
I would invite artists to come and stay

00:57:51.855 --> 00:57:56.239
from two weeks to a month and
just do whatever they wanted.

00:57:56.240 --> 00:57:58.119
- I had heard about his foundation

00:57:58.120 --> 00:58:03.069
and so I got to go up in 2017.

00:58:03.070 --> 00:58:05.509
So to have this opportunity for two weeks

00:58:05.510 --> 00:58:08.339
to leave my other work behind

00:58:08.340 --> 00:58:13.259
and work plein air up there in
the countryside was amazing.

00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:16.879
I guess the word we use is
a representational painter.

00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:19.869
I am working from life most of the time

00:58:19.870 --> 00:58:23.359
and what I was wanting
to do is capture nature

00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:26.319
with what\'s happening with global warming

00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:28.889
and the way landscape is
fracturing within that.

00:58:28.890 --> 00:58:32.349
And I think the idea of using
a mirrored surface in itself

00:58:32.350 --> 00:58:34.662
was a really nice thing to do

00:58:34.663 --> 00:58:38.163
as it references in some
ways Richard\'s work.

00:58:39.640 --> 00:58:42.298
Richard\'s work has always reflected

00:58:42.299 --> 00:58:44.459
the time that he lives in.

00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:47.689
When we see his paintings
in the 70s of New York

00:58:47.690 --> 00:58:50.449
with all the reflections and the style

00:58:50.450 --> 00:58:52.139
and the fashions of the
time, they\'re all there.

00:58:52.140 --> 00:58:53.893
He\'s capturing that moment.

00:58:57.210 --> 00:59:00.539
Having dinners with Richard
or visiting him in his studio

00:59:00.540 --> 00:59:04.283
is a time where you can talk
about painting in general.

00:59:06.930 --> 00:59:10.649
It\'s incredibly helpful for a
younger generation of artists

00:59:10.650 --> 00:59:13.939
to work with such a great painter

00:59:13.940 --> 00:59:17.609
and even to see his easel is fascinating

00:59:17.610 --> 00:59:19.999
because he works very differently from me.

00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:22.779
So it\'s just incredible
to see his working methods

00:59:22.780 --> 00:59:24.663
and how he produces those paintings.

00:59:26.970 --> 00:59:30.879
To allow us to go

00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.589
and share his view,

00:59:34.590 --> 00:59:38.110
his world that he has
up there is incredible.

00:59:41.356 --> 00:59:45.879
And to just be given the time
to come out of your world,

00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:47.689
come out of my studio world,

00:59:47.690 --> 00:59:51.639
which is often in Bushwick in
Brooklyn, really changes work.

00:59:51.640 --> 00:59:54.072
I mean, it changed my work.

00:59:54.073 --> 00:59:56.740
(upbeat music)

01:00:16.096 --> 01:00:21.096
- I think that a lot of good
painting is sort of ignored

01:00:21.221 --> 01:00:24.009
in the art world

01:00:24.010 --> 01:00:26.866
and a lot of really
bad painting is highly-

01:00:26.867 --> 01:00:29.683
- Highly admired.
- Admired, yeah.

01:00:30.620 --> 01:00:31.620
It\'s almost

01:00:34.230 --> 01:00:37.003
sacrilegious to have skill.

01:00:38.360 --> 01:00:41.812
No, it doesn\'t get any easier
and it doesn\'t get any faster.

01:00:41.813 --> 01:00:43.639
(laughing)

01:00:43.640 --> 01:00:44.963
That I\'m aware of.

01:00:45.990 --> 01:00:48.389
It gets, you know, in a
way my eyes aren\'t as good

01:00:48.390 --> 01:00:50.809
as they used to be either.

01:00:50.810 --> 01:00:53.793
My muscles are not quite so steady.

01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:58.129
- It\'s a discipline,
it\'s a real discipline.

01:00:58.130 --> 01:01:02.126
I mean, every afternoon
he\'s in the studio painting.

01:01:02.127 --> 01:01:07.127
So the idea that these things
can be tossed off easily

01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:09.289
is not true.

01:01:09.290 --> 01:01:11.829
He works and he works very hard

01:01:11.830 --> 01:01:14.289
and he has sometimes has to change things

01:01:14.290 --> 01:01:16.559
and he gets frustrated.

01:01:16.560 --> 01:01:19.673
- If I had an unsuccessful
day I feel depressed.

01:01:19.674 --> 01:01:22.007
(laughing)

01:01:23.070 --> 01:01:26.003
- [Interviewer] And what is
an unsuccessful day mean?

01:01:28.360 --> 01:01:30.558
- Well, just not quite right

01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:33.490
so you have to do it over again.

01:01:33.491 --> 01:01:35.209
(upbeat music)

01:01:35.210 --> 01:01:37.749
- One of the fun things
about Richard\'s paintings

01:01:37.750 --> 01:01:40.629
is how he hides his signature.

01:01:40.630 --> 01:01:42.509
And it\'s always a little
bit of a guessing game

01:01:42.510 --> 01:01:44.969
to figure out where did
he put his signature

01:01:44.970 --> 01:01:45.870
in this picture?

01:01:45.871 --> 01:01:48.239
And it\'s very clever.

01:01:48.240 --> 01:01:50.929
Because it sometimes can take hours

01:01:50.930 --> 01:01:53.253
before you can figure out where it is.

01:01:55.270 --> 01:01:58.476
I was going to try to find his signature

01:01:58.477 --> 01:02:01.803
since we talked about that earlier today.

01:02:04.740 --> 01:02:07.529
How fun. (laughing)

01:02:07.530 --> 01:02:08.949
This is quite interesting

01:02:08.950 --> 01:02:11.529
because I\'m not seeing it right away.

01:02:11.530 --> 01:02:12.939
- The signatures are hidden,

01:02:12.940 --> 01:02:15.549
sometimes they\'re hidden
as it were in plain sight.

01:02:15.550 --> 01:02:17.709
He just simply incorporates his signature

01:02:17.710 --> 01:02:19.129
at the bottom there.

01:02:19.130 --> 01:02:21.569
Richard Estes, or in this work,

01:02:21.570 --> 01:02:23.319
he incorporates the
signature a different way

01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:26.969
at the top of this
building, Richard W Estes.

01:02:26.970 --> 01:02:31.069
- I decided that these
Picasso\'s or Matisse\'s

01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:34.246
with these great big sprawling signatures

01:02:34.247 --> 01:02:37.419
was not my way of doing things.

01:02:37.420 --> 01:02:40.759
And in fact, I rather admire someone

01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.249
like some of the medieval painters

01:02:44.250 --> 01:02:48.879
who would write it down
on some sort of scroll

01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:51.509
on the earth their names,

01:02:51.510 --> 01:02:53.373
this was made by so and so.

01:02:54.860 --> 01:02:57.239
So starting out with that

01:02:57.240 --> 01:03:01.139
and since I\'m doing all these, you know,

01:03:01.140 --> 01:03:05.609
signage in the various New York scenes,

01:03:05.610 --> 01:03:08.940
what better place to
sort of stick your name

01:03:11.688 --> 01:03:13.976
than in the restaurant menu or something.

01:03:13.977 --> 01:03:15.082
(laughing)

01:03:15.083 --> 01:03:17.750
(upbeat music)

01:04:06.530 --> 01:04:08.869
- [Clare] New York
doesn\'t look like it did

01:04:08.870 --> 01:04:11.639
when Richard painted those pictures

01:04:11.640 --> 01:04:16.640
and that part of New York is gone now.

01:04:16.780 --> 01:04:18.383
It was a great moment.

01:04:47.390 --> 01:04:49.309
- I don\'t know, right now I\'m thinking

01:04:49.310 --> 01:04:53.299
maybe I\'ll emphasize just people more

01:04:53.300 --> 01:04:54.893
and forget about these,

01:04:55.830 --> 01:04:58.969
I\'ve done enough to store
fronts and street scenes,

01:04:58.970 --> 01:05:02.541
now maybe I\'ll do some figure,

01:05:02.542 --> 01:05:06.023
with more of an emphasis on figures.

01:05:07.392 --> 01:05:08.360
It\'s a possibility, I don\'t know.

01:05:08.361 --> 01:05:10.060
I haven\'t really done it yet, but.

01:05:11.200 --> 01:05:15.963
It\'s funny when you
usually, at least with me,

01:05:16.810 --> 01:05:19.759
I end up thinking I\'m
going to do one thing

01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:22.563
and I ended up doing something else.

01:05:26.083 --> 01:05:28.309
- [Interviewer] So it\'s kind of in a way

01:05:28.310 --> 01:05:30.173
sort of trial and error maybe?

01:05:32.347 --> 01:05:33.609
- Yeah, yeah.

01:05:33.610 --> 01:05:36.782
It\'s error and trial I guess.

01:05:36.783 --> 01:05:39.033
(laughing)

01:05:40.660 --> 01:05:43.243
(upbeat music)

01:05:52.773 --> 01:05:55.690
(soft piano music)

01:06:26.734 --> 01:06:29.817
(upbeat jazz music)