00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:12.440
Fairness is arguably the central word
in our moral lives.

00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:15.920
Violations of fairness
are really powerful.

00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:18.880
They burn they
they can ruin relationships in an instant.

00:00:19.720 --> 00:00:22.960
A sensitivity to fairness
is extremely early developing.

00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:28.720
Right now, we're studying infants
in the first three months of life,

00:00:28.840 --> 00:00:31.920
and we're excited
to see how this turns out.

00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:34.840
Kids don't really have a say in
what's fair, what's not.

00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.840
It's always the adults that tell you.

00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.280
And then when we don't have a say

00:00:39.800 --> 00:00:42.120
then the adult can do what they want

00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:45.200
and we can't do anything to stop them.

00:00:46.720 --> 00:00:49.720
Imagine if there was a concept of fairness

00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:54.040
that people could use
to hold politicians to account.

00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:56.920
Now, that, I think would be a first.

00:00:58.360 --> 00:01:01.080
I would say the question is
why does oppression matter?

00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:04.960
Why does it matter
that entire groups of people

00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:09.280
don't have the same kind of opportunity
and access that others do?

00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:15.880
Fairness is an acceptance that we live
very interconnected lives.

00:01:16.600 --> 00:01:19.600
We need to roll back on this idea
that the only thing,

00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:23.040
the only measure of success is financial
wealth.

00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:07.480
One of the most striking features of the modern
world is the fact that inequality has risen

00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:11.080
in democratic countries,
without any real popular uprising.

00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.400
How is it that so many people can view

00:02:15.640 --> 00:02:20.000
these huge inequalities as fair?

00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:23.160
Why do people accept

00:02:23.200 --> 00:02:25.200
the kind of winner takes all society?

00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:37.600
What you will see today is a lab experiment

00:02:37.640 --> 00:02:40.120
that looks at economic decision making.

00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:44.080
Up to now, much of economic

00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.000
reasoning has been
that all inequalities are bad.

00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:49.920
But what we will see today
is that people,

00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:51.840
people have different ideas about that.

00:02:51.880 --> 00:02:53.040
So some people say,

00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:55.560
well, there are fair inequalities
in there, unfair inequalities.

00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:57.480
Okay.

00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:59.800
So everybody should now see
the instructions.

00:03:00.160 --> 00:03:03.000
Just take your time
and read them carefully and let us know

00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:04.400
when you have questions.

00:03:07.600 --> 00:03:09.240
They will first do a task.

00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:12.240
They will add numbers
and they will earn points.

00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:13.520
By doing that.

00:03:15.880 --> 00:03:19.800
Then we match or pair two participants
who have both been part of this.

00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.400
Then we say to each of them, well,
now it's your choice.

00:03:23.440 --> 00:03:26.920
I mean, here is the total amount of money
that you and this other guy produced,

00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:30.400
and you are now to decide
how to share this pie.

00:03:30.640 --> 00:03:33.520
It's a very simple task.
And and that's it.

00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:34.840
Nothing will happen afterwards.

00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:37.880
I mean, if you take all the money, you can
you can take all the money home.

00:03:37.920 --> 00:03:40.200
If you share with the other guy,
we'll get some of the money.

00:03:46.320 --> 00:03:47.840
We want to have people make

00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.120
decisions in real economic situations
where there are real stakes.

00:03:51.200 --> 00:03:54.880
So when we tell them that take on
their own money, they actually earn money.

00:04:06.480 --> 00:04:08.440
Okay, so I'll start

00:04:08.440 --> 00:04:11.920
explaining what we found in the experiment that we did.

00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:17.440
People who produce less than others,
they actually give away much more.

00:04:17.760 --> 00:04:22.680
This notion of meritocracy
as fairness, this notion

00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:27.360
that a guy who has done better deserves
more, is a powerful notion.

00:04:27.400 --> 00:04:30.160
And we see it very clearly in this experiment.

00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:33.840
People are willing to accept

00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:38.200
almost any inequality if they view it
as a result of a competition.

00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:40.840
This is something you have
from sports, right?

00:04:40.880 --> 00:04:43.720
Even if somebody just wins
by a millisecond,

00:04:44.200 --> 00:04:46.840
he deserves gold and all the money.

00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:48.760
And you find that fair?

00:04:48.760 --> 00:04:52.200
And essentially,
I think some of that logic is taking into

00:04:52.440 --> 00:04:53.520
the economic sphere.

00:04:55.640 --> 00:04:59.160
We need to think carefully
about how the institutions are shaping

00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.520
the future generation’s ideas of fairness.

00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:05.080
So in Norway, it's the case that,
I mean, kids

00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:07.920
are treated in an extremely egalitarian manner

00:05:08.320 --> 00:05:12.040
up until they are around
12 years old, before adolescence.

00:05:12.080 --> 00:05:15.480
So then there is no very little
grading in school.

00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:18.200
When you play football,
if your team is down,

00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.600
you are allowed to add players,
so it evens out.

00:05:20.640 --> 00:05:23.520
So there are all these egalitarian institutions.

00:05:23.960 --> 00:05:26.120
But actually this changes a lot in Norway.

00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.640
When kids go into adolescence, then
the institutions become very meritocratic.

00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.800
We really reward that better performance
in sports.

00:05:33.840 --> 00:05:35.440
We start grading and so on.

00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:38.560
And I mean, the institutions shape
their ideas of fairness

00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.600
and turn them into meritocrats.

00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:45.760
Another really, really fascinating line
here is a lot of people,

00:05:45.880 --> 00:05:49.280
about 30% actually don't give anything.

00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:52.080
They don't give anything to the other guy.

00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:54.040
The students are actually outliers
typically.

00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.360
And in particular, students
at the business school.

00:05:56.400 --> 00:05:59.720
You're actually looking
at the most selfish group that we more

00:05:59.760 --> 00:06:02.760
or less have identified a part
from very young kids.

00:06:02.760 --> 00:06:06.000
Business students are the most selfish people
you would ever meet.

00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.600
I earnt £60,000 when I was 26.

00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.560
You shouldn't have put your ginger in just at this point.

00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:26.440
but it doesn't matter.

00:06:26.440 --> 00:06:28.560
But you just need to cook this until it’s

00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:29.840
golden brown.

00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.040
I had an old school friend
who is now a teacher.

00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:37.360
I would have been in my,
I suppose, early thirties,

00:06:37.840 --> 00:06:40.920
she wrote

00:06:40.960 --> 00:06:44.520
on Facebook, to me, on Facebook or something.

00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:46.880
I can't remember.
But she said she didn't think it was fair.

00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:49.440
She didn't think that it was fair

00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:53.520
that I got paid so much
and she got paid so little.

00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.880
And I argued with her

00:06:59.080 --> 00:07:02.200
and I said, Well, you know, people like me

00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:06.680
we’re, you know,
we're hard to find

00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:10.680
there’s market principles behind this, you know,
I mean, you know, there's lots of people

00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:11.880
who could be a teacher,

00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:14.000
but there's not that many people
who could do what I do

00:07:14.320 --> 00:07:21.240
Did you burn it? I burnt it too so I can’t really criticise!

00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:26.320
Why do we get paid so much?

00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.880
The conclusion I've come to

00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:34.200
is that there's just so much money
floating around in the city

00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.280
and there's so much scope to make money
when you're dealing

00:07:38.320 --> 00:07:41.600
with millions, hundreds of millions,
possibly even billions.

00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:45.200
Honestly, if you go around the city
and you just forced everybody's

00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:49.080
salaries down by half,
how many people would actually have left?

00:07:49.840 --> 00:07:52.160
I don't think anyone would have left.

00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.280
But we use them in various
different things.

00:07:54.280 --> 00:07:58.920
So if you if you'd like to buy it’s only,
50p for all of it.

00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:02.440
Bags of taste
is a behavioral change program

00:08:02.960 --> 00:08:05.840
that enables people to,

00:08:06.440 --> 00:08:07.960
ultimately, they go through the whole thing

00:08:07.960 --> 00:08:10.480
and they find that they magically cook
at the end of it.

00:08:12.440 --> 00:08:15.520
We designed recipes
that cost less than £1 a portion to make

00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.240
so that they're comparable
to fast foods and things.

00:08:18.640 --> 00:08:21.440
And we're keen to get people
to have better diets

00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:23.320
and we're keen to help and save money.

00:08:23.840 --> 00:08:25.760
And we know there's an issue of debt

00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:29.040
amongst people who are on lower
incomes.

00:08:29.440 --> 00:08:31.840
Employers are getting away
with paying people too little.

00:08:31.880 --> 00:08:35.640
I mean, so much of
where we are in life is luck. And

00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:38.000
I don't know how many people

00:08:38.040 --> 00:08:40.360
really appreciate that,
especially at the top level

00:08:40.400 --> 00:08:42.480
when you actually ask them,
Oh, how did you get here?

00:08:42.520 --> 00:08:44.640
They always think it's their own merit.

00:08:44.680 --> 00:08:47.160
And in fact, the research shows
that generally isn't their own merit.

00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:49.000
It's very often luck,

00:08:49.040 --> 00:08:51.920
but the richer you are, the more you think
that you're just brilliant, you know.

00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:52.760
And and.

00:08:52.800 --> 00:08:53.720
Yeah, I think I'm brilliant.

00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:54.640
Of course I think I'm brilliant.

00:08:54.640 --> 00:08:58.440
But, you know, I am also very conscious
that it's just luck.

00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.320
The people that I met,
the parents that I had,

00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:02.960
the education I was given.

00:09:03.400 --> 00:09:07.120
And I see people that have nothing of what I have,
literally nothing.

00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:08.880
And they were just unlucky.

00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:10.560
I just don't think that's fair.

00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:11.680
That just isn't fair.

00:09:11.680 --> 00:09:14.160
And if I can help that, I will.

00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:15.280
You know,

00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:18.280
I stopped short of selling my house

00:09:18.280 --> 00:09:21.080
and equally distributing
all the money to everybody.

00:09:21.280 --> 00:09:23.880
So that probably is, you know, my own.

00:09:23.920 --> 00:09:26.000
That's that's that's my own limit.

00:09:41.520 --> 00:09:44.640
London is a playground for the rich,

00:09:44.680 --> 00:09:48.160
a treadmill of the middle classes

00:09:50.680 --> 00:09:53.760
and a warehouse for the poor.

00:09:53.800 --> 00:09:55.800
And our purpose, or at least my purpose.

00:09:55.800 --> 00:09:59.960
My intention is to try something new.

00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:00.480
Really.

00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:06.200
It's to see if we can have a debate
about fairness that results in Londoners

00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.280
owning what fairness is,
as opposed to politicians.

00:10:10.760 --> 00:10:14.280
And I'll just be honest, I get completely,
utterly fed up with the notion that,

00:10:15.280 --> 00:10:18.600
you know, doesn’t matter which political party
somebody is telling us what's fair

00:10:18.640 --> 00:10:19.640
and what isn't.

00:10:19.800 --> 00:10:22.320
It's a bit like social justice
like department directorate.

00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.000
You own fairness!

00:10:24.040 --> 00:10:25.680
Londoners own fairness.

00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:26.760
You decide what fairness is.

00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.400
I say we’ll be up to 80 or 90 at the very least.

00:10:36.760 --> 00:10:38.160
Oh, I think so, yes.

00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:38.680
Okay.

00:10:38.680 --> 00:10:44.960
Well, if things don't turn out like that,
if it's 80 or 90, we haven't got enough chairs.

00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:45.560
Hello, Lizzie.

00:10:47.560 --> 00:10:49.960
But if they don't, we'll have a.

00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.840
We'll come together. And quickly
reduce the number of chairs.

00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:58.840
Yes, it's much better to have a slightly
crowded looking room than a empty looking one.

00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:01.080
I forgotten your name. Andy.

00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:04.520
If you can create a consensus

00:11:04.520 --> 00:11:06.560
that fairness can be owned by the people,

00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:09.560
it actually speaks to the notion
that our politicians

00:11:09.800 --> 00:11:12.120
should fear the public,
not the other way around.

00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:15.280
I think it's cheating
when politicians on the left or the right

00:11:15.760 --> 00:11:19.920
or the center say, Well, it's, you know,
that's fair or unfair.

00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.320
The question that should be asking is,
what do you think?

00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:27.760
The thing that I find obscene
is the term affordable for housing.

00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.000
It's a need-  look at Maslow's hierarchy.

00:11:31.880 --> 00:11:34.680
Having a roof over
your head is one of those basic things.

00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.640
The Fairness Commission
was the first London-wide

00:11:37.760 --> 00:11:40.640
attempt to look at fairness across the city,

00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.440
and it's the first attempt
to do that really since about 1890.

00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:48.400
Booth...who invented the poverty line

00:11:48.520 --> 00:11:49.720
And we're talking about fairness.

00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:51.800
What does that mean?
When we say that we've got legislation.

00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:53.680
We’ve got policies, we've got.....

00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:55.800
What I hope to achieve through the Fairness
Commission

00:11:55.800 --> 00:11:58.280
is what constitutes a fair city?

00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.600
and what policies mitigate towards

00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:04.040
fairness?

00:12:06.680 --> 00:12:12.080
Well, I keep thinking back to is people
just sitting and doing hundreds of applications.

00:12:12.560 --> 00:12:14.200
And not hearing back from anything.

00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:19.320
The most visceral feelings, the most deep
feelings of unfairness were in London's young.

00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:23.000
Some parents wants to help their kids.

00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:25.120
But they can't because of  this and this and that.

00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:30.120
The notion of meritocracy is a fantasy.
Poor kids that are born intelligent, i.e.

00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:35.320
more intelligent than their richer counterparts
are overtaken by their less intelligent,

00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.400
wealthy counterparts by the age of seven

00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:40.600
as a direct result of access, privilege.

00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:43.000
Now, that can't be good for society.

00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:45.560
Okay the next one is house prices.

00:12:45.560 --> 00:12:47.760
Where am I going to live? Says Hannah.

00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:51.160
There's a feeling
when I talk to young people in London

00:12:51.400 --> 00:12:55.560
that they are being
cut out of the equation.

00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:59.680
I would not want to
see a capital city which has

00:13:01.760 --> 00:13:03.560
a well, it's been a kind of

00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:04.720
social cleansing.

00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:14.960
What kind of city do we want London to be?

00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.040
What extent should society's
infrastructures

00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:24.520
be skewed to favor someone just because
they’re born wealthy -lucky

00:13:24.800 --> 00:13:26.880
as opposed to born intelligent-lucky

00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.200
People have called me an idealist.

00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.160
The. Fairness commission, what a ridiculous thing.

00:13:33.160 --> 00:13:37.040
It strikes me that often the people who
say ‘the world is unfair get used to it’

00:13:37.280 --> 00:13:40.880
Are the people who've benefited from unfairness

00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:48.560
I believe human beings are born with a sense of fairness.

00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:53.560
But society can just structurally condition
people to not give a damn really.

00:13:54.400 --> 00:13:59.200
Or it can create the conditions in which people
will choose to go with what is inherently human nature.

00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.880
Right now, we're increasingly interested
in the origins of justice motivations.

00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:25.200
If someone's helpful,
you want to react to them positively.

00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.680
But if someone's bad themselves,
we feel exactly the opposite.

00:14:30.640 --> 00:14:33.800
And your head is like
half your body weight.

00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:34.640
All right.

00:14:34.680 --> 00:14:35.960
Good choice. Good work.

00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:39.560
Thank you very much, Here’s your shark.

00:14:40.760 --> 00:14:44.120
There's a sense in fairness
in how people should treat each other.

00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:49.560
And so I'm really curious to discover
whether that has any origins in infancy.

00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.840
Luna do you want to play a game with us?

00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:54.960
Yeah, Should we go play a game.

00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:57.760
Yeah, yeah. Okay, can mummy come too?

00:14:58.080 --> 00:14:58.800
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:58.840 --> 00:14:59.400
Okay.

00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.920
In this study, we're asking whether infants

00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:11.520
are responding nicer
to those who've been nice to others

00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.160
and potentially less nicely to those
who've been mean to others.

00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.800
Infants first watch a interaction
where there's one character

00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:27.120
who has an unfulfilled goal.

00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:32.920
He's trying and failing to jump up
onto a shelf to get an airplane toy.

00:15:35.560 --> 00:15:41.520
One of them runs up, jumps on top of the
shelf and gives the boy the airplane toy.

00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:43.080
So this is the nice puppet.

00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.240
The other puppet is the mean puppet.

00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:58.480
Basically we're interested in what children's
reactions to characters

00:15:58.520 --> 00:16:03.080
who've been helpful to others or harmful
to others is.

00:16:04.280 --> 00:16:06.680
Oh Wow! A duck!

00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:11.040
Quack, quack.

00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.760
Later we show infants

00:16:13.800 --> 00:16:18.840
that one of the characters, either
the girl who was nice or the girl who is mean,

00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.400
has a preference for one kind of toy over another.

00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:25.920
What we do is see whether infants respond differently

00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:29.480
depending on whether the character
was helpful before or unhelpful before.

00:16:29.680 --> 00:16:31.200
Oh, goodie!

00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:33.240
Just what I wanted.

00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:35.040
Can you give me one?

00:16:43.800 --> 00:16:47.320
What we find is that when children
are interacting with the mean puppet,

00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:50.320
about a third of them say,
No, you can't have anything at all.

00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.720
About a third of them
give her the toy that she disliked,

00:16:54.760 --> 00:16:56.760
and about a third of them
give her the toy she liked.

00:16:56.800 --> 00:16:59.760
So they seem much less careful
about being nice

00:16:59.800 --> 00:17:01.920
if you are previously mean
to somebody else.

00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:04.040
Can you give me one?

00:17:04.840 --> 00:17:08.920
When they do give something
to the one that was nice,

00:17:09.120 --> 00:17:12.040
they all give the toy that she liked.

00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:12.800
Hello!

00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:15.480
A hug for Mr Lion?

00:17:16.800 --> 00:17:18.360
Give them a big hug.

00:17:18.360 --> 00:17:20.280
So sweet.

00:17:20.320 --> 00:17:23.880
We find that very young
infants are already sort of showing

00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.080
positive emotional benefits from being generous.

00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.200
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.

00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.200
Yeah. You don't mind sharing.

00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.400
You just didn't want to share
with that nasty puppet.

00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.400
I think this is sort of smacks
against the assumption that children

00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:41.200
are inherently selfish and that they don't
want to give their stuff away.

00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:52.320
Oh, okay.

00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.200
In this study, we're interested in

00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:01.880
whether infants are surprised
by unfair interactions.

00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:03.280
And by that I mean

00:18:03.320 --> 00:18:07.400
more goods are given to one character
than another for no apparent reason.

00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.920
In late infancy, infants seem sensitive to this,

00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.040
so they look longer after they see
an event in which someone's been unfair.

00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:17.400
Here you go.

00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.960
This what we mean by more action than normal in our study!

00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:29.160
Not all infants respond in this way,
but it's common enough

00:18:29.560 --> 00:18:33.040
that children seem
to just be totally shocked by this.

00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.840
That child was 15 months old.

00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:42.640
At 15 months, it looks as though infants prefer
fair characters to unfair ones.

00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.680
But of course, some children may be more
sensitive to fairness than others.

00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:48.520
Who do you like?

00:18:48.560 --> 00:18:50.600
Everybody!

00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.040
Right now in the lab,
we're running studies looking at

00:18:53.080 --> 00:18:56.880
whether younger babies
also show the same patterns.

00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:59.280
There you go.

00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:01.920
Are you practicing your baby push ups?

00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:06.560
At least by three months of age infants
seem particularly sensitive to harm.

00:19:06.760 --> 00:19:11.840
To me, that is the strongest evidence
that there is something innate

00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:16.000
going on here, because it's unlikely,
I would argue, that they're experiencing

00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:18.040
in the first couple of months
of their life

00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:21.160
much anti social action
happening in their environment.

00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:23.880
What if they were animal puppets?

00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.240
Would that be different?

00:19:25.280 --> 00:19:27.400
Animal puppets

00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.600
Animal puppets?
Do you want to see some animal puppets?

00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:31.520
No.

00:19:32.360 --> 00:19:36.480
One thing that we’ve found with infants that's not particularly nice

00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.360
Infants seem to have very strong in-group biases.

00:19:40.560 --> 00:19:43.240
They like it when you help strangers.

00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.080
They like it when you help those who they like,

00:19:46.600 --> 00:19:49.240
but they like it when you harm those who they dislike.

00:19:49.600 --> 00:19:51.720
Hey, you want to try some?

00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:56.840
She's a cracker fan.

00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:58.040
She is.

00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:02.920
Yuck! I don't like gram crackers.

00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:05.840
Infants, as young as nine months of age,

00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.480
like it when you harm those who simply
don't share their food preference.

00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.000
The similarity of a baby to an adult
is sort of very striking.

00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:21.200
They have this ability to show
remarkable bias

00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.240
depending on very simple, you know, do you
are you similar to me or not?

00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:27.240
Well, I can't hold any more.

00:20:27.280 --> 00:20:31.600
So it seems as though the origins of sort
of liking goodness and fairness

00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:36.600
may be present extremely early on,
but also the origins of biases

00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.160
for the in-group and disliking difference
in other individuals.

00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.280
That's present really early on too.

00:20:43.280 --> 00:20:51.240
And so, development might be learning to sort of
distinguish between what is the right kind of fair behavior

00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:52.680
and what's the wrong kind.

00:21:12.320 --> 00:21:16.600
I think fairness is one of those things
that people feel very strongly about.

00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:24.760
One of the things that we'd like to know more about is
Why?

00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:27.560
What's the evolutionary function of this behavior?

00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:34.680
So this is the primate center and you can go inside...

00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:36.600
and see the monkeys.

00:21:41.600 --> 00:21:44.200
Here's the cucumber.

00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.440
I have to have gloves on when I'm touching food.

00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.880
Generally speaking, the sweeter
something is, the better they like it.

00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.320
So, one good way of judging
what they're going to like best

00:21:55.360 --> 00:21:59.240
is if it's expensive in the supermarket,
that means they like it.

00:21:59.800 --> 00:22:02.160
So their most preferred foods
are the grapes,

00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:05.840
and their second
most preferred food is actually cucumbers.

00:22:06.040 --> 00:22:08.520
So they like cucumbers quite a lot,
and then their least

00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:10.200
preferred food is the bell peppers.

00:22:12.520 --> 00:22:16.480
So when we do these studies, what we're really
measuring is inequity aversion,

00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.920
or how individuals respond when they get a
less valuable reward than their partner does.

00:22:22.320 --> 00:22:22.960
See, these?

00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:25.640
Those are food calls.

00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.080
The little hoo, hoo, hoo, means they're excited.

00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:33.360
So this is Logan and this is Liam
and we're going to do a trade and Liam's

00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.520
going to trade and he's going to get a bell pepper
and then Logan's going to trade and get a grape.

00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:41.120
So sometimes we get really interesting
responses where they get very upset.

00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:45.560
They'll bang on the cage or throw tokens,
or sometimes they'll just go in the back

00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:47.720
and they'll refuse to come over
and interact with us at all.

00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:49.960
Here you go Logan.

00:22:50.760 --> 00:22:52.320
Good job!

00:22:52.840 --> 00:22:53.520
See this?

00:22:56.320 --> 00:22:56.880
Liam?

00:22:59.040 --> 00:23:00.480
Here you go Liam

00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:02.160
Hand that back.

00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:07.760
Not interested?

00:23:08.280 --> 00:23:13.360
We don't quite understand why fairness
causes this outraged reaction,

00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:14.760
but we know it does.

00:23:14.800 --> 00:23:17.440
The question is, if people are getting enough,

00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.800
why should they care
if some individuals are getting more?

00:23:19.840 --> 00:23:21.160
And yet we clearly do.

00:23:23.800 --> 00:23:28.320
The reaction to fairness itself
is probably actually at heart an emotional reaction.

00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.800
It's just that frustration,
that moment of realization

00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:35.040
that you're getting less, which is what
we probably see in primates.

00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:36.160
I dropped it.

00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:40.640
One of the hypotheses about the sense
of fairness is that it's a mechanism

00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.000
by which individuals determine
the value of their cooperative partners.

00:23:44.520 --> 00:23:47.760
If you're working with someone else
and you begin to feel frustrated

00:23:47.800 --> 00:23:50.880
because you feel like they're
taking more than you, then that can be

00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:54.880
an easy rule of thumb that it's time
to go find another cooperative partner.

00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:58.680
And this is true whether you're
talking about humans or to other species.

00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.680
Liam.

00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:05.080
Liam, Liam.

00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.320
For a long time, cooperation was ignored
because it was considered

00:24:08.360 --> 00:24:11.880
to be antithetical
to this idea of natural selection,

00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:13.880
where it's every individual
for themselves.

00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:16.680
They're faster than I am.

00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:21.240
And it's true that that is the goal
of evolution, but that overlooks the fact

00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:24.560
that sometimes you can best meet that goal
by working together.

00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:25.800
See this?

00:24:26.280 --> 00:24:29.920
And that's where I think we could learn
a lesson from capuchin monkeys here.

00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:32.960
We need to be careful not to always be
the ones that are dominating

00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:36.040
and taking the grape and make sure
that others get them sometimes as well.

00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:04.200
Amtrak wishes you a good day.

00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.000
This is the last stop for Boston Massachusets

00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:10.080
And what's your name? James.

00:25:10.120 --> 00:25:11.640
Cool. What?

00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:13.680
What are we doing with that?

00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:15.240
You want to find out? Yeah.

00:25:15.280 --> 00:25:17.520
You guys want to play a game with some Skittles.
Yeah.

00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:19.120
All right, cool.

00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:22.480
We study children
because we want to understand

00:25:22.520 --> 00:25:28.240
which aspects of fairness are likely
to be universal or possibly evolved.

00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.920
We focus on one very foundational element,

00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:34.880
which is this idea
of equality and inequality

00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.400
and how did children respond
to inequality?

00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:40.720
We've done one recent study

00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:45.880
where we used our inequity aversion
apparatus to test children

00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.000
in seven different cultures,
seven different societies,

00:25:50.080 --> 00:25:52.880
the US and Canada,
which were our Western group.

00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:58.000
But we also had Senegal,
Uganda, India, Peru and Mexico.

00:25:58.120 --> 00:25:58.480
All right.

00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.680
So we're going to do a game with Skittles.

00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:01.640
You guys like Skittles.

00:26:02.600 --> 00:26:03.640
So if I

00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.520
pull the red handle, this is what happens.

00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:10.320
The candy drops into the middle bowl
and nobody gets those.

00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:14.960
You know, if I pull the green handle,
the trays tilt outward.

00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:17.640
Sometimes you have to pull that one
a little more

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:20.560
and you both get whatever is on the trays

00:26:20.800 --> 00:26:21.280
Okay.

00:26:21.320 --> 00:26:23.040
Does that make sense?

00:26:23.040 --> 00:26:25.280
There are really two sides to it.

00:26:25.320 --> 00:26:28.520
Someone is getting less
and someone is getting more.

00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:35.200
And those two sides of inequality turn out to
be very important in research on fairness.

00:26:35.560 --> 00:26:38.760
They even have fancy names
when I am getting less.

00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:42.320
That is disadvantageous inequity.

00:26:42.360 --> 00:26:47.160
When I am getting more,
I am in a situation of advantageous inequity

00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.440
Four on her side. one on your side? Yes.

00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:52.440
Which handle do you want to pull?

00:26:53.360 --> 00:26:54.240
Nobody gets any of that.

00:26:54.360 --> 00:26:58.560
What we see with children is that they seem to
be sensitive to getting the bad deal.

00:26:59.080 --> 00:26:59.840
All right.

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.960
One on Sophie's side
and four on your side.

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.480
Which handle do you want to pull?

00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:10.040
All right.

00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:17.800
By contrast, when you flip that around,
children  were willing to accept that.

00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.240
That's really interesting to me,
because objectively

00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:25.920
the inequality is unfair,
but how you respond is quite different.

00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:28.560
Do you guys think that's fair? Nope.

00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:29.680
What do you think?

00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.720
Sophie

00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:34.600
To me,

00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.120
I don't think that's fair to her.

00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.560
But since I have more candy and I think

00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:46.920
I can be really happy.

00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:51.520
But still, I know she thinks it’s not fair

00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.560
They would only start to reject the
advantageous offers later in development,

00:27:57.760 --> 00:28:01.360
and only in three places US, Canada and Uganda.

00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:03.960
All right.

00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.080
So nobody gets any candy that time.

00:28:06.840 --> 00:28:09.160
And that's a big sacrifice in this case.

00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:10.360
Four pieces of candy.

00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:14.080
I'm giving that four pieces
to prevent you from getting one.

00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.520
That's what we tend to think of
as kind of a strong sense of fairness.

00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:18.160
Sophie,

00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:21.000
when you were getting more

00:28:21.040 --> 00:28:24.600
than Sophia,
you would sometimes pull the red handle.

00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.120
Why did you do that?

00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.960
Because I didn’t want to have more than her.

00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:31.960
Yeah?

00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:35.560
Well, right now I do have a little more than her,

00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:39.040
But I didn’t want to have a lot more than her.

00:28:40.040 --> 00:28:44.800
But sometimes I pulled the green if there
a lot of my favourite flavours and stuff

00:28:44.800 --> 00:28:45.480
Oh, right.

00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:50.120
Well, if we are born
with some basic sense of fairness,

00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:54.880
which components of that might be innate
or something that's evolved

00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:59.320
Based on this experiment across broad
range of cultures, we can say it

00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:03.880
looks like that reaction to getting less
the disadvantageous side of it

00:29:04.360 --> 00:29:07.600
that is a candidate for it being innate.

00:29:08.800 --> 00:29:17.160
We believe that the the second form- advantageous inequity aversion
or rejecting the good deal - that has to be learnt.

00:29:18.280 --> 00:29:24.240
Because it only appeared in three places in childhood,
we know that that's definitely far more influenced by culture

00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:26.200
and may even be a product of culture.

00:29:26.800 --> 00:29:28.920
Humans seem to be fairly unique

00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:31.960
in being willing to give something up

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.600
when they have an advantage
in order to create greater equality.

00:29:36.040 --> 00:29:38.680
What did you say about who gets to
play the game and who got more skills?

00:29:39.120 --> 00:29:41.440
Well, we both got to play the game.

00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:46.480
William got to control the levers.

00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:49.840
And I got enough candy...

00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.840
that that that we both....

00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.520
That we both got enough to be happy with.

00:29:56.520 --> 00:29:59.080
Really so that kind of balanced out. Yeah.

00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.600
Oh that's really cool
that the way you guys do things?

00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:05.960
Yeah. All these things balanced out.

00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.240
So that sounds pretty fair.

00:30:32.840 --> 00:30:36.520
There was a lot of cutting down
on transfers to poor people,

00:30:36.800 --> 00:30:39.240
to single household families in the U.S.

00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:40.720
and throughout Europe.

00:30:41.800 --> 00:30:43.600
And what validates this

00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:48.240
is this idea of personal responsibility
or deservedness.

00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:50.920
The poor should be held
responsible for their choices.

00:30:51.840 --> 00:30:55.920
So this is a very powerful notion,
but it raises an enormously important

00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:59.480
and complicated question, namely,
so what is a ‘choice’?

00:31:02.320 --> 00:31:05.480
In this experiment your choice will definitely count.

00:31:06.040 --> 00:31:09.240
This is not like a survey question
or hypothetical or anything like that.

00:31:09.280 --> 00:31:11.040
You actually determine it.

00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:15.880
So we will actually transfer the money that
you have decided that each of them should get

00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.320
and this will be implemented
within a few days.

00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:25.280
The students were actually facing a real situation
where two people had worked for the Choice Lab.

00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:29.120
these two guys had just randomly been paid differently.

00:31:29.840 --> 00:31:32.120
So one guy was paid 800
and the other guy had been paid nothing.

00:31:32.560 --> 00:31:34.320
And now we asked some ot the students.

00:31:34.360 --> 00:31:39.440
Do you want to redistribute between the guy who earnt
everything and the guy who earnt nothing for the same job?

00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.680
and most students say, yes, yes,
we want to do that.

00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.760
So here Worker A was more lucky.

00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:49.440
And for me it was equal that we treated it equally.

00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:53.760
So I gave 400 of what A got to B.

00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:54.760
Okay.

00:31:54.800 --> 00:31:56.400
So that was the base treatment?

00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:58.240
No, we did two manipulations.

00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.720
So some of you looked at different
treatments and here are these different. treatments...

00:32:01.840 --> 00:32:04.920
In this case,
it was a choice that had no value.

00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:06.640
I mean, they would
still be exposed to the luck.

00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.480
So you can either
just take 25 points for sure,

00:32:11.600 --> 00:32:13.640
or you
can choose to take part in a lottery

00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.160
and the winner of the lottery
will get 800.

00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:19.800
A loser will get zero

00:32:20.600 --> 00:32:23.000
As soon as choice is introduced
to the picture,

00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:26.840
people say, well, now the inequality
is acceptable to a much greater extent.

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.160
I mean, they did a choice

00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:34.920
Well, yeah, I thought this guy lost the lottery
that he chose to participate in ...and so...

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.720
But a lot of people claim that the situation that the poor are in

00:32:40.320 --> 00:32:44.800
is their responsibility because it reflects choices they did.

00:32:45.360 --> 00:32:47.920
It reflects that they didn't take an education.

00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.320
It reflects that they divorced.

00:32:50.360 --> 00:32:52.920
It reflects that they don't work full time.

00:32:54.320 --> 00:32:56.840
But now we have to step take one step back and say,

00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.480
well, yes, they did these choices, but what were the alternatives?

00:33:00.800 --> 00:33:05.960
Could they really I mean, pursue
an education without giving up everything basically?

00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:07.280
Could even access education?

00:33:07.320 --> 00:33:08.800
This is, of course, an even deeper question.

00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:13.440
So basically, this is tremendously important because it raises

00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:19.120
this fundamental question, when we see this kind of
justification for cutting down on transfers to the poor,

00:33:19.520 --> 00:33:20.920
Is this a good justificat or not?

00:33:21.520 --> 00:33:27.080
We know in the US  that personal responsibility is brought
into the discussion of both health and many other issues.

00:33:27.080 --> 00:33:29.960
Do we think that the people
who reported to be left wing

00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.560
behave differently than the people
reporting to be right wing?

00:33:34.360 --> 00:33:35.560
Any thoughts?

00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:59.720
I was very much on the left. I hated Ronald Reagan.
I loved Bill Clinton.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.880
I began studying political psychology in the early 2000’s

00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.360
because I couldn't stand how badly the Democrats were doing.

00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:09.920
They just didn't know how to talk about morality.

00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:13.840
And I began studying political psychology
in order to help the Democrats

00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.080
speak better- it was my part of my goal.

00:34:17.120 --> 00:34:20.360
And in the process of studying
political psychology, I made a commitment

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.440
to really understanding conservatives.

00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:24.480
I read conservative books and magazines.

00:34:24.520 --> 00:34:26.320
I listen to the way they talk.

00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:27.960
And I came to see that they're not crazy.

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.960
That actually there are a lot of insights into society,

00:34:31.120 --> 00:34:33.360
family, marriage, respect

00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:37.760
that are quite important
for running a decent society.

00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:41.240
I ended up basically
dropping out of politics.

00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:43.760
I'm nonpartisan. I try to understand all sides.

00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:56.040
The left is really focused on equality.

00:34:56.080 --> 00:35:01.960
They focus on - are different groups getting equal outcomes?

00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:03.080
and obviously they're not.

00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:06.840
We have big racial differences
in wealth, in health and education.

00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:10.560
So if you focus on equality of outcome,
we sure don't have it in America.

00:35:10.600 --> 00:35:11.920
And the left focuses on that.

00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.880
But if you focus on proportionality,

00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.440
that is, are people getting out in proportion, their inputs?

00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:22.120
Well, you know, certain ethnic groups
have much higher rates of employment and marriage.

00:35:22.200 --> 00:35:24.520
They raise their kids,
they devote themselves to their kids.

00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:27.080
Asians in America do extremely well.

00:35:27.120 --> 00:35:28.440
They're richer than whites.

00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:29.720
Is that unfair?

00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:32.920
On the right, people say no.

00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:36.040
On the right, people say,
if you work hard, you should get ahead.

00:35:39.080 --> 00:35:43.040
One of the most important factors
causing racial inequality in this country

00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:47.080
is that the black family began
to disintegrate in the 1960s.

00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:50.160
Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
wrote a report on this,

00:35:50.160 --> 00:35:54.960
warned that if out-of-wedlock birth rates
keep rising, it's going to be a disaster

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:56.440
for African-Americans.

00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.000
He was called a racist.

00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.320
People wouldn't talk to him.

00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:04.040
How dare you blame black people for their, for by saying that

00:36:04.080 --> 00:36:07.400
they've contributed to the inequalities
and to the problems in society?

00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.120
Well,
it turns out Moynihan was exactly right.

00:36:10.160 --> 00:36:13.600
Things have gotten much, much worse
for the black family.  Marriage is,

00:36:14.680 --> 00:36:15.840
along with education, the

00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.000
two gigantic causes of success
or failure in life.

00:36:20.040 --> 00:36:20.880
If you're raised

00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:23.240
in an unstable family environment
without married parents,

00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:24.840
you're unlikely to move up.

00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.960
Whereas if your parents are married and
your poor, your very likely to move up.

00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.320
So we have this mess in
the social sciences, in the United States,

00:36:32.680 --> 00:36:40.960
in which our social scientists will not consider hypotheses.
that in any way implicate sacred victim groups.

00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:42.240
And this, I believe,

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:45.200
has led to the breakdown
of the social sciences,

00:36:45.560 --> 00:36:49.440
not in all matters,, but in matters that
involve race, gender, class,

00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.000
other highly politicized topics.

00:36:54.520 --> 00:36:56.640
I tweeted out this

00:36:56.720 --> 00:37:00.160
this tweet stream about privilege,

00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.440
and I essentially compared it to walking up to the bank

00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.560
and having an extra million dollars in your bank account.

00:37:07.600 --> 00:37:09.480
You have no idea where it came from,

00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:11.480
You know, it wasn't a part of your salary,

00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:13.480
You know, you didn't earn it some of way.

00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.960
First you might look at it suspiciously,
but eventually you start to spend it

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.920
and you spend it on things
that you care about, right?

00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:23.560
You spend it on your family,
you spend it on your friends, spend it on

00:37:23.600 --> 00:37:26.640
buying a better house,
getting your kids into a better school,

00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:29.640
making sure your child doesn't
have to take out loans for college.

00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:31.560
All the right things. Right?

00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:35.080
Eventually, though, you start
to convince yourself that it was yours all along

00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:38.720
because you don't remember
what it was like to ever live without it.

00:37:39.080 --> 00:37:42.160
Suddenly it just becomes so natural
and so innate to you

00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:44.640
that you have convinced yourself
that you deserve it

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.840
and that anyone who tries
to take it from you, even though it wasn't

00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:49.200
yours in the first place, is a thief.

00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:53.880
That million bucks
was not given to you freely.

00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:56.560
It was given to you
off the backs of people who suffered,

00:37:56.840 --> 00:37:58.080
who shouldn't have been stolen from.

00:37:58.080 --> 00:38:00.520
And yet you refused to let go.

00:38:03.200 --> 00:38:06.760
There are about 60 kids that I taught.

00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:08.520
Third graders.

00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:11.160
Who were so brilliant

00:38:11.200 --> 00:38:15.480
and so curious and thoughtful
and funny and kind

00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:18.960
and just all of the things
that lots of people

00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.960
don't believe about them are true.

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.640
All of my children were black,
except for one.

00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.640
All of them lived in a low
income neighborhood.

00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:31.280
I think when children experience
inequity,

00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:34.800
it severely limits their imagination.

00:38:35.560 --> 00:38:40.200
Children see what other schools look like,
what their facilities look like, then wonder,

00:38:40.200 --> 00:38:42.080
why is my school not the same?

00:38:43.160 --> 00:38:46.240
They can't see themselves
participating in innovation.

00:38:46.600 --> 00:38:50.960
They're already starting to internalize
those things.

00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.480
People will say, you know,
this is about being politically correct.

00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:58.960
No, it's actually about treating people as people
and recognizing that marginalized people

00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:04.720
deserve the same full range of access
that everyone else does.

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.320
I absolutely just don't think it's fair
to say it all comes down to the parents

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.720
and how much they  nudge you.

00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:14.680
When parents have been acculturated to certain
things, have experienced inequity themselves,

00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:19.080
a lot of them are caught in circumstances
where the kind of time, the access

00:39:19.120 --> 00:39:24.200
to opportunity that they want to be able
to provide their children is not actually available to them.

00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:31.000
Privilege is very real and you know it
when you're on the rough end of it.

00:39:31.640 --> 00:39:34.160
Yeah.

00:39:34.200 --> 00:39:40.840
It reaches in every single direction,
into every single age, you could possibly imagine.

00:39:48.720 --> 00:39:49.800
Right now you stay.

00:39:50.600 --> 00:39:54.200
Don't make me fucking run around you with
30 pounds of g’damn gear on in the sun.

00:39:54.680 --> 00:39:56.160
Because you want to screw around out here.

00:40:00.200 --> 00:40:02.520
Get out of here. I already told you.

00:40:02.560 --> 00:40:05.040
You're leaving now!

00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:10.680
We want to consider ourselves living in
a modern time where systems of the past,

00:40:10.720 --> 00:40:15.000
like slavery and colonialism
and feudalism, no longer shape our world.

00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:19.680
We have a sense about how unfairness in the past functioned,

00:40:19.720 --> 00:40:22.560
and we celebrate that we are not that.

00:40:23.240 --> 00:40:28.480
Yet, in reality, we are post-colonial
societies, post-slavery societies,

00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:33.120
post feudal societies,
which means that there are elements

00:40:33.160 --> 00:40:35.880
of those old systems still playing out.

00:40:54.240 --> 00:40:58.560
I want my mama! I want my mama! Oh God.

00:40:58.600 --> 00:41:02.680
Some people are just structurally
in a disadvantaged position,

00:41:03.120 --> 00:41:06.120
and that means other
people are in an advantage position.

00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.920
If you're uncomfortable hearing that,
it means that you're not really prepared

00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:15.280
to see how our society structures
all sorts of things.

00:41:17.160 --> 00:41:20.640
Fairness and justice are distinct
concepts.

00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:24.440
The challenges
that all countries have to face

00:41:24.680 --> 00:41:26.120
It’s a global phenomenon

00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:36.840
For the United States, and I would be willing to wager
in most countries, some groups have less power in the political system,

00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:38.800
and in access to justice.

00:41:39.520 --> 00:41:41.760
For example, black women

00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:44.600
are least likely to have their cases

00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.480
believed by police officers, least likely

00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:52.880
to have their alleged rapists prosecuted,

00:41:53.080 --> 00:41:57.240
and least likely when they are prosecuted
to see them convicted.

00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:02.880
And when they do get convicted,
their sentences are far less

00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:08.600
than the sentences of other individuals
who've been prosecuted and convicted.

00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:12.280
So what this shines a light on

00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:15.160
is the fact
that while all women are vulnerable,

00:42:16.120 --> 00:42:21.040
the consequences, how they're treated,
whether they are believed,

00:42:21.080 --> 00:42:26.600
whether their cases go forward
largely tracks on to social hierarchy

00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.440
Courts simply invisiblize them.

00:42:30.640 --> 00:42:34.920
Them they're not really seen
as subjects of discrimination.

00:42:36.520 --> 00:42:38.480
It's a two pronged problem.

00:42:38.520 --> 00:42:40.800
Things happen to them
because of who they are,

00:42:41.120 --> 00:42:44.400
and they can't seek accountability
because of who they are.

00:47:15.040 --> 00:47:17.680
The fight for justice has always been

00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.960
you never actually arrive
at the final outcome.

00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:27.760
It's part of human progress.

00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:32.040
If you want to look at the history
of injustice across millennia,

00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:35.320
you'll find it written in the tax codes

00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:38.720
and some of the earliest available literature.

00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:42.600
Rosetta Stone, for example,
are essentially tax codes

00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.080
because they do shape

00:47:47.600 --> 00:47:49.840
the in the outcomes of

00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:52.640
social justice

00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:54.160
to an extraordinary degree.

00:47:58.560 --> 00:48:04.000
Until the 1920s, the global economy wasn't
dominated by multinational companies.

00:48:04.040 --> 00:48:06.760
They are a lost century phenomena,

00:48:07.040 --> 00:48:08.720
and inevitably,
because they're working in more

00:48:08.720 --> 00:48:10.560
than one country,
it throws up issues about

00:48:10.600 --> 00:48:14.400
how will the wealth
they create be distributed.

00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:16.320
And that was addressed
by the League of Nations.

00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:17.560
And at that time,

00:48:18.520 --> 00:48:19.720
that's in the 1920s.

00:48:19.720 --> 00:48:21.760
In the 1930s,

00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:25.960
the powerful and empire countries
Britain,

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:29.000
France,

00:48:29.200 --> 00:48:32.000
Germany, they dominated the discussion

00:48:32.560 --> 00:48:35.920
and shaped rules
which suited their purposes.

00:48:36.240 --> 00:48:39.520
They were damned if they were going to get
taxing rights to the poorer countries.

00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:41.000
Their colonies.

00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:48.880
United States also was instrumental
in shaping rules which suit them.

00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:52.640
The rules allow them to pretend

00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:58.280
that their profits are derived
in some company, set up a Bermuda

00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:03.040
or Cayman Islands or Jersey or whatever, and
everyone knows that's a complete fiction.

00:49:03.080 --> 00:49:06.400
But the rules allow that to happen.

00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.280
It's been so corrupting.

00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.440
I think it's undermined democracy.

00:49:10.600 --> 00:49:12.360
It's undermine rule of law.

00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:15.840
It's given this clear sense
that there is one rule for the rich

00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:19.680
and quite another for the vast
majority of us.

00:49:19.720 --> 00:49:22.360
And I think that has also corrupted
our sense of fairness.

00:49:28.600 --> 00:49:30.840
What's the scale of this offshore economy?

00:49:31.720 --> 00:49:35.600
I commissioned some research into this
from a specialist research agency.

00:49:36.640 --> 00:49:40.200
Their estimates based on 2010 data is that

00:49:41.240 --> 00:49:49.280
somewhere between 21 trillion to 32 trillion USD
of private wealth sits offshore, untaxed.

00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:55.240
Now a trillion, to those of you whose
salaries don't go up to the trillions,

00:49:55.240 --> 00:49:56.720
a trillion is a million million.

00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:02.960
We're talking staggering amounts of wealth sitting
offshore, untaxed.

00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.760
One of the things that's really pissed me off, big time

00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:11.640
has been the way in which a corruption

00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:15.120
debate was shaped in the 1990s,

00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:18.480
in which we pointed fingers
at the South and said,

00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:21.960
It's your corruption

00:50:22.120 --> 00:50:24.480
that has led to underdevelopment

00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:27.600
and poverty and inequality, and so on.

00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:32.160
You can't blame them exclusively

00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:36.360
for not delivering on all sorts of human
rights violations

00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:39.760
when they don't have the money and
when they're being deprived of the money.

00:50:42.520 --> 00:50:46.280
If tax haven countries, like Britain
and Switzerland and Luxembourg,

00:50:46.600 --> 00:50:50.480
are actively helping the elites
and the powerful multinational companies

00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:53.720
to paying taxes in some of the poorest
countries in the world,

00:50:54.160 --> 00:50:58.920
are they not also complicit
in abusing the human rights of the poorest

00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:01.400
and most vulnerable people in the world?

00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:10.520
I've often been told by

00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.120
people who really should know better

00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:17.880
academics, senior practitioners, professionals,

00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:22.440
They say, well John, we know the system is unjust,
but you can't change the system.

00:51:23.560 --> 00:51:26.760
And just those three words,
you can't change the system.

00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:28.640
Actually, come to think of it, thats four words

00:51:28.640 --> 00:51:34.720
Anyway, just those words.
You can't change the system angers me so much.

00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:37.120
The system is man made.

00:51:37.120 --> 00:51:39.840
Of course you can
bloody well change the system.

00:51:40.160 --> 00:51:43.480
These are the documents
at the heart of the LuxLeaks scandal.

00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:48.000
28,000 confidential pages,
which lists more than 500

00:51:48.040 --> 00:51:52.640
tax agreements between multinationals
and the tax administration in Luxembourg.

00:51:53.200 --> 00:51:58.320
Giants like Apple, IKEA and Amazon
obtain so-called tax rulings

00:51:58.560 --> 00:52:01.840
which allow them to pay tax rates
as low as 1%.

00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:04.560
The three Frenchmen
who leaked the documents

00:52:04.600 --> 00:52:07.560
revealing the sweetheart
deals are now going on trial.

00:52:08.040 --> 00:52:13.240
The main suspect is Antoine Deltour,
a former employee of audit firm P.W.C

00:52:13.240 --> 00:52:16.160
If convicted, Deltour
and the two other men

00:52:16.360 --> 00:52:20.680
face up to ten years in prison
and a fine of more than €1 million.

00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:25.720
My decision to become a whistle blower.

00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:27.760
It didn't come one day.

00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:30.080
It was very progressive.

00:52:30.120 --> 00:52:32.240
As an auditor, I was highly motivated.

00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:34.840
It was my first job and I was appreciated.

00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.040
I had been promoted just before resigning.

00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.320
During my professional activity,
I discovered that

00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:44.640
some companies,
some clients from the auditing firm

00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:47.720
were only

00:52:48.920 --> 00:52:51.920
holdings with no real economic activity

00:52:52.720 --> 00:52:56.520
that were in Luxembourg
just to to shift profits

00:52:56.560 --> 00:53:00.920
from the countries
where the real activity, economic activity is

00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:04.680
to shift profits to Luxembourg
to avoid paying tax.

00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:11.600
I think that it's not acceptable

00:53:11.640 --> 00:53:15.480
that some big multinationals
avoid tax while

00:53:16.560 --> 00:53:19.480
normal citizens and small business
have to pay

00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:24.360
a huge burden
and suffer from austerity measures.

00:53:24.640 --> 00:53:28.760
And it's because multinationals themselves

00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:32.240
use public services
like roads, like a skilled

00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:34.800
workforce, etc.

00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:37.080
So they need

00:53:37.520 --> 00:53:40.800
They should contribute
to these public services and they don't.

00:53:41.160 --> 00:53:42.400
So that's not fair.

00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:49.320
As a citizen who has a conscience
and you don't have much opportunities to

00:53:49.520 --> 00:53:50.720
to change things.

00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:53.560
And I thought that
maybe it was the opportunity

00:53:53.600 --> 00:53:56.880
to foster a public debate on tax rulings.

00:53:57.560 --> 00:54:00.240
There is something wrong
in these tax practices.

00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:04.600
And I knew that the opinion
and the politicians deserved

00:54:04.720 --> 00:54:06.040
to be informed about it.

00:54:06.080 --> 00:54:09.480
The case is embarrassing for the former
prime minister of Luxembourg

00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:10.560
Claude Juncker.

00:54:11.120 --> 00:54:16.080
He now heads the European Commission,
which says it wants to make tax issues a priority.

00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:19.600
Tax evasion cost Europe €1
trillion a year.

00:54:21.640 --> 00:54:25.640
I think about LuxLeaks consequences everyday

00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.880
especially just before the trial.

00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.520
I am always thinking about it

00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:36.840
and I'm afraid of what could happen.

00:54:39.720 --> 00:54:41.720
I, I face,

00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:47.360
I don't think I would go to jail, but maybe
I will have to pay 1 million, I don't know

00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:50.440
much more than what I can pay

00:54:51.640 --> 00:54:53.240
This is a threat.

00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:12.760
We're now
driving literally into Wales.

00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:17.200
We're coming up towards Abergavenny,
which is known as the Gateway to Wales.

00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:20.800
And I'm a Welshman
originally from Cardiff.

00:55:20.840 --> 00:55:25.000
I left Cardiff at 18
and went into the military.

00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:29.400
I think my role at the moment is

00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:31.640
quite by accident

00:55:31.640 --> 00:55:33.600
is trying to explain to people

00:55:33.640 --> 00:55:39.040
what the outcome of not paying fair tax is on a society.

00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:45.280
And one of the things I learned in the military is
you fight on ground of your own choosing.

00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:47.400
You do not fight on the enemy's ground.

00:55:59.080 --> 00:56:00.280
So I see my chefs.

00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:03.640
Hi guys, how are you?

00:56:04.720 --> 00:56:05.280
busy?

00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:11.240
I think my intervention is stimulated really

00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:14.080
by the understanding of the size,
the scale of the issue.

00:56:15.160 --> 00:56:21.080
If a tenth of the world's GDP, 8 trillion, is
going through Amsterdam every year

00:56:22.520 --> 00:56:26.640
for the express purpose of avoiding tax,

00:56:26.680 --> 00:56:30.000
then there's something in the system
that's kind of broken.

00:56:32.600 --> 00:56:34.600
Well, thanks for the support anyway.

00:56:34.640 --> 00:56:37.920
I'm trying to change the narrative
from tax avoidance to tax abuse.

00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:42.080
I think there's a point where avoidance
becomes abuse and abuse becomes bullying.

00:56:42.560 --> 00:56:45.360
And so we're looking at the ten biggest
bullies in Britain

00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:48.840
We’ve got what we call attack plans.

00:56:51.560 --> 00:56:53.160
it's the

00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:56.480
it is Steve scheme for

00:56:56.520 --> 00:56:59.320
imposing a not really tax

00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:03.880
tax on Amazon but as they don't pay
very much in the way of tax.

00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:10.200
We had the  idea of ordering things
and then returning them so that

00:57:10.240 --> 00:57:12.400
Mr. Amazon could pay the return carriage.

00:57:14.080 --> 00:57:15.880
It's called fair tax town

00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:20.160
Everyone has to pay a fair
share of their taxes,

00:57:21.520 --> 00:57:25.360
even if people have a different idea
about fairness.

00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:31.000
The cost of handling the package
that they send to us and returning,

00:57:31.040 --> 00:57:34.800
we've calculated, is in excess of the tax

00:57:34.840 --> 00:57:37.760
that they're saving by their aggressive
tax policies.

00:57:38.080 --> 00:57:43.480
So it's a way of kind of fining,
if you like, Amazon for being bad tax citizens.

00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:49.360
Congratulations. Well done.

00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:51.760
Congratulations, David and Goliath.

00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:53.560
God bless you all.

00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:55.400
And it's anonymous.

00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:56.720
Where’s it from?

00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:03.360
I think Steve is totally bonkers,
but once he gets the bit between his teeth on an issue

00:58:03.560 --> 00:58:06.240
then he will run and run with it.

00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:07.720
He he just doesn't give up.

00:58:07.720 --> 00:58:09.520
He's totally tenacious.

00:58:09.560 --> 00:58:12.640
And I think you maybe
have to be a little bit crazy to.

00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:15.080
Take on issues like this.

00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:24.560
So this is where I live.

00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:33.960
I have been places around this world
where the only thing that ties

00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:36.640
you to what you're doing is your beliefs system.

00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:42.560
Everything else is shot away, literally,
and you're dealing with absolute extremes of life and death.

00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:48.360
The only thing that keeps you grounded
is that sense of what I call a moral compass.

00:58:48.520 --> 00:58:51.320
And I genuinely believe the likes
of Facebook and Google,

00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:56.000
the executives that run those organizations
have completely lost their moral compass.

00:58:58.600 --> 00:59:03.280
And that's my kids party yurt where they
as teenagers,they have their parties.

00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:07.000
I fear, for the next generation
because they've lost their

00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:08.720
they seem to have lost their bite,
which they won't want you.

00:59:09.200 --> 00:59:12.000
What do you think will make it work?

00:59:12.040 --> 00:59:15.480
I think you need everyone to back you, to be behind you.

00:59:15.520 --> 00:59:18.960
You've got to be prepared to put something
on the line to really change something.

00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:21.720
Would you stop using Facebook?

00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:24.920
No..

00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.480
If we can get the younger generation

00:59:28.520 --> 00:59:32.720
saying, no, I'm not going to use Google
or I'm not going to use Amazon.

00:59:32.720 --> 00:59:36.440
If they're not prepared to do that,
then they'll get what they deserve.

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:41.240
I know how you do it. You get Harry Styles, of One Direction,

00:59:41.680 --> 00:59:44.040
who pays all his tax and they all do.

00:59:44.080 --> 00:59:46.320
Those kids are all paying their tax. Yeah.

00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:48.400
You get him to launch it.

00:59:49.160 --> 00:59:52.400
That’s what I’ll do. I’ll get Harry Styles to launch...

00:59:52.600 --> 00:59:53.560
That's a brilliant idea.

00:59:53.560 --> 00:59:55.480
Well done love!
How are you going to do that?

00:59:55.520 --> 00:59:56.360
Easy.

00:59:57.120 --> 01:00:01.400
I'll get Hayden Prows
to get hold of  Harry Styles.

01:00:02.160 --> 01:00:04.000
Okay! It’s easy

01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:08.640
As my grandfather used to say,
he poos the same way as everybody else.

01:00:10.200 --> 01:00:12.680
I mean, I worry about apathy, but I think

01:00:14.600 --> 01:00:17.880
it’s a lack of appreciation of just
what's going on.

01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:20.200
It’s ignorance and apathy.

01:00:20.240 --> 01:00:23.520
If the government was able
to collect the corporation taxes

01:00:23.520 --> 01:00:25.520
that are being avoided at the moment

01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:29.480
a lot of the austerity measures
wouldn't need to be there.

01:00:29.520 --> 01:00:31.680
So our schools would be properly funded.

01:00:31.720 --> 01:00:35.680
Our hospitals wouldn't have junior doctors
going out on strike.

01:00:38.200 --> 01:00:41.920
The numbers are frightening
and in terms of what it does,

01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:46.480
we would have no shortages of NHS,
we would have no issues with policing,

01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:49.080
we would have no issues
in counter-terrorism.

01:00:49.720 --> 01:00:52.760
So there is a massive consequence
to the behavior.

01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:56.320
It's skewing
the whole of the development of UK.

01:00:57.200 --> 01:00:58.640
Where does that model end up?

01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:25.520
Inequality has become a very popular way
of capturing

01:01:25.720 --> 01:01:29.440
some of the dilemmas we're facing
in the development of our societies.

01:01:30.440 --> 01:01:32.480
We need to really unpack that concept

01:01:32.520 --> 01:01:35.280
because you could have a society
that's very equal in income terms,

01:01:35.560 --> 01:01:37.840
but it just happens to be that
everyone is poor.

01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:40.720
And that to me doesn't seem
like a very good or fair society.

01:01:46.200 --> 01:01:47.600
For me, fairness feels different.

01:01:47.840 --> 01:01:49.000
It feels like the right concept because

01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:51.600
it's asking about what's really happening

01:01:51.640 --> 01:01:53.720
to make sure that everyone is meeting the right standards.

01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:07.800
Costa Rica is a really interesting example.

01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.680
It has a level of social progress
better than Italy,

01:02:11.120 --> 01:02:12.680
a G7 country,

01:02:13.680 --> 01:02:15.760
but a much, much lower GDP.

01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:18.280
About a GDP,
less than half that of Italy's

01:02:19.240 --> 01:02:23.080
Costa Rica has done something really,
really interesting in turning its wealth

01:02:23.120 --> 01:02:26.000
into the real well-being of its citizens.

01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:31.880
The Social Progress Index is really asking
the question What is a good society?

01:02:32.240 --> 01:02:34.320
And we defined it's the three terms.

01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:41.000
One is, does everyone, every citizen, have
the basic needs for survival met?

01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:50.760
Secondly does every citizen have those building
blocks  of a better life like education?

01:02:56.040 --> 01:03:00.880
And thirdly, is every citizen free
to pursue their hopes and dreams without impediments?

01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:03.880
And do they have rights
and freedom of choice? Those kinds of things?

01:03:06.160 --> 01:03:09.880
So that way it's actually a
very good measure of a fair, good society.

01:03:15.200 --> 01:03:19.720
We saw Costa Rica in the 19th century
introducing universal primary education,

01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:23.280
which is a remarkable
sort of achievement for the 19th century.

01:03:23.720 --> 01:03:27.040
And then we see into the 20th century
a country that has prioritized

01:03:27.080 --> 01:03:29.680
the well-being of its citizens
in various ways,

01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:34.240
including abolishing having an army

01:03:34.600 --> 01:03:36.880
making a welfare state in the 1940s

01:03:51.600 --> 01:03:54.720
In Costa Rica, I know that we are like, we're very successful

01:03:55.480 --> 01:04:00.440
in transforming every dollar we produce in social benefits.

01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:04.800
I mean, if you have a good education access and health access,

01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:06.920
you can you can have a pretty decent life,

01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:12.440
even though you are not the richest man
on the earth or you don't have like,

01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:17.800
you know, as my father said,
gold in your country or whatever

01:04:21.560 --> 01:04:25.240
You have to feel like you live in a fair society

01:04:25.640 --> 01:04:27.920
in order to really work

01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:31.880
to improve yourself
and therefore improve the community.

01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:39.320
My cousins, they can have aspirations
to be professionals or whatever they want

01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:42.520
and they are able to really envision
their future.

01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:47.240
And I think that's a different thing
in this country because I know

01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:50.360
that there are a lot of countries
where people is not even able

01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:53.000
to really project
themselves in the future.

01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:59.760
That's a great thing,
and it's not as common as one may think.

01:05:35.080 --> 01:05:37.800
So social progress in Costa
Rica has been really laid down

01:05:38.200 --> 01:05:40.480
over time by lots of investments.

01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:42.880
Social progress isn't built overnight.

01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:45.080
It's about a consistent effort over time.

01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:07.600
Governments ultimately are the ones
who are at the top of the pyramid.

01:06:07.640 --> 01:06:09.560
They control the law.

01:06:09.600 --> 01:06:12.560
As Max Weber said, they have the monopoly
on violence in the society.

01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:15.720
So there's a there's a point whereby
the buck does stop with government.

01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:44.760
Iceland’s Prime Minister resigned Tuesday,

01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:49.200
becoming the first major
casualty of the Panama Papers revelations.

01:06:49.560 --> 01:06:54.440
Leaked documents reveal
that when Gunnlaugsson owned an offshore company

01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:57.280
with his wife, which he failed to declare
when he entered parliament.

01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:00.880
A massive demonstration ensued what some locals called

01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:04.280
the largest public demonstration in Iceland's history.

01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:07.640
The Pirate Party was seeing
a surge of support

01:07:07.960 --> 01:07:10.400
following the publication
of the Panama Papers.

01:07:10.560 --> 01:07:13.840
One poll has the Pirate Party at 43%.

01:07:15.720 --> 01:07:18.480
Actually, we have gone from, yeah,

01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:22.400
5% to 43% and then down a little bit again.

01:07:25.720 --> 01:07:28.320
The newest polls showed 31.8%.

01:07:28.360 --> 01:07:31.160
And so it's kind of
everyone are optimistic again.

01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:34.240
People have different views of honesty and truth.

01:07:35.600 --> 01:07:39.800
But we are trying to

01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:42.240
create a participatory democracy.

01:07:43.080 --> 01:07:50.400
So we have to be honest in valuing our feelings
and opinions and straightforward in that.

01:07:50.720 --> 01:07:57.360
After the 2008 financial collapse,
people had been kind of led to believe

01:07:57.400 --> 01:08:00.400
that they were going to fix things
and everything's going to get better.

01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:02.320
And we all had to kind of work together.

01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:05.680
People had to have lesser pay
and but we were society.

01:08:05.720 --> 01:08:07.720
We're going to build this up together.

01:08:07.760 --> 01:08:12.240
And when the Panama thing came out,
you know, it was just a deal breaker

01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.400
and people were appalled.

01:08:22.360 --> 01:08:26.280
There was just an amazing energy
and unison, kind of feeling of unison

01:08:27.480 --> 01:08:28.480
That day.

01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:31.600
Like, we've had enough,
we've had enough of these liars.

01:08:44.080 --> 01:08:47.800
In terms of financial misconduct, which
we think a lot about in Iceland.

01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:51.760
Many of us believe it's
sort of like an addictive behavior.

01:08:52.160 --> 01:08:58.440
People hope to reach a type of success
as they have defined it.

01:08:58.480 --> 01:09:00.480
Maybe they come
from a very wealthy family.

01:09:00.480 --> 01:09:04.560
Maybe dad made 5 billion
and the son has to make 5 billion.

01:09:05.200 --> 01:09:07.400
Maybe it's something

01:09:08.120 --> 01:09:11.320
crucially connected
to someone's self image.

01:09:13.120 --> 01:09:18.840
But then, at the same time, for change to work,
we want to be able to look on it

01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:21.280
in a benevolent way.

01:09:21.280 --> 01:09:25.320
And look at it like a failure, like an addiction of sort.

01:09:25.360 --> 01:09:28.000
Like like alcoholism.

01:09:28.040 --> 01:09:30.560
Or when people are greedy,

01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:34.920
when people betray their obligations,
it's a type of a sickness.

01:09:36.160 --> 01:09:39.880
And then we cannot up an individual in isolation.

01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:42.400
We have to think about how is our system functioning.

01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:45.960
People can see that,
you know, we're as honest

01:09:46.000 --> 01:09:49.240
as we possibly can about things,
try to keep things open.

01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:52.720
And that's
I think, a key to fairness is just that,

01:09:53.520 --> 01:09:58.440
that people can access information
and that kind of belongs to them anyway.

01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:03.560
It's sometimes difficult for ourselves,
but we know that we cannot give a class on ethics.

01:10:04.040 --> 01:10:08.120
We have to behave as we find is ethical
because the children learn

01:10:09.400 --> 01:10:12.760
by what you exhibit and not by what you tell them.

01:10:26.560 --> 01:10:29.480
Kids don't really have a say in
what's fair, what's not.

01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:33.320
It's always the adults that tell you what to do.

01:10:34.080 --> 01:10:36.920
Like your mom will
say, Eat your vegetables.

01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:40.240
And I might not think that's fair,

01:10:40.280 --> 01:10:42.360
but I do it because she's my mom.

01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:44.920
And then

01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:47.960
when we don't have a say,

01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:50.280
then the adults can do what they want

01:10:51.480 --> 01:10:54.120
and we can't do anything to stop them.

01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:04.920
When she got involved with this group,
she was nine

01:11:05.800 --> 01:11:09.480
and the realities of the case
are hitting closer to home.

01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:11.520
So as a mom, it was..

01:11:11.840 --> 01:11:17.200
A little tender part of me wanted to protect her
and not have her be involved in this lawsuit.

01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:23.320
So all 21 plaintiffs go and we're in line and we're waiting.

01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:26.120
And that takes like a long while.

01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:29.160
And then we have to spend 2 hours
in this court

01:11:29.680 --> 01:11:33.920
listening, to old people, talk
about what they think is right and wrong.

01:11:35.200 --> 01:11:39.760
I'm of two minds. I mean, on one hand,
I'm so proud of my daughter for getting involved.

01:11:40.160 --> 01:11:44.920
And I'm proud that she knows she
has a voice and that she speaks up.

01:11:45.040 --> 01:11:48.000
Well,  there's a cup and two plates. From last spring?

01:11:48.080 --> 01:11:50.040
Yeah, You can just hand them to me.

01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:56.240
We’re asking the government to take
responsibility for their actions

01:11:56.280 --> 01:12:01.400
and to make sure that we have a planet
and an environment

01:12:01.720 --> 01:12:07.000
that will last until the next generation
and the generation after that.

01:12:08.320 --> 01:12:10.800
Hi Julia, good to see you.

01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:13.800
thanks for having me over

01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:17.840
We launched legal actions in all 50 states

01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:20.600
in the United States
and against the federal government.

01:12:20.920 --> 01:12:23.800
And then it has expanded
globally since then.

01:12:24.240 --> 01:12:27.760
And so there are actions now happening
in other countries, like there's a case

01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:31.240
to be filed next week
in Pakistan on behalf of young people

01:12:31.600 --> 01:12:33.080
and soon after India.

01:12:33.120 --> 01:12:37.720
So he's probably working on the decision,
making it as air tight as he can.

01:12:37.960 --> 01:12:43.600
Children are filing cases against their government
using the Public Trust Doctrine.

01:12:43.800 --> 01:12:46.720
The Public Trust Doctrine is an ancient legal doctrine.

01:12:46.760 --> 01:12:50.000
It comes from Roman times,
and it's pretty simple.

01:12:50.040 --> 01:12:55.600
It says the government is a trustee over
essential natural resources.

01:12:55.640 --> 01:12:58.800
So the things that are vital to life, air
and water for example,

01:12:59.320 --> 01:13:04.080
and the citizens, including future
generations, are the beneficiaries.

01:13:04.240 --> 01:13:07.440
I think the court understands
how important the case is,

01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:10.360
and he tends to issue decisions
pretty quickly.

01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:14.720
A state or a nation
cannot get rid of the Public Trust.

01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:18.720
It's attached to the sovereignty
of its existence and in its own name

01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:21.760
It can only be destroyed
if the sovereign is destroyed.

01:13:22.360 --> 01:13:27.680
And actually it's people like you, Hazel,
and young people who inspire me to keep that hope...

01:13:28.200 --> 01:13:30.400
I'm incredibly hopeful.

01:13:30.440 --> 01:13:33.560
The youth in Washington
state have already won

01:13:33.600 --> 01:13:37.160
one case against Washington
using the Public Trust Doctrine.

01:13:37.200 --> 01:13:38.520
And so we have precedent.

01:13:41.280 --> 01:13:43.320
Oh, that's what it is.

01:13:45.800 --> 01:13:49.680
There’s fundamental questions of fairness
because of what we're leaving

01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:53.040
to all future generations
if we don't reverse course.

01:14:02.400 --> 01:14:04.760
There's a butterfly on the ground.