00:00:09.642 --> 00:00:12.445
Fairness is arguably the central word
in our moral lives.

00:00:12.879 --> 00:00:15.915
Violations of fairness
are really powerful.

00:00:15.949 --> 00:00:18.885
They burn they
they can ruin relationships in an instant.

00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.956
A sensitivity to fairness
is extremely early developing.

00:00:26.092 --> 00:00:28.728
Right now, we're studying infants
in the first three months of life,

00:00:28.828 --> 00:00:31.931
and we're excited
to see how this turns out.

00:00:31.965 --> 00:00:34.834
Kids don't really have a say in
what's fair, what's not.

00:00:34.868 --> 00:00:36.836
It's always the adults that tell you.

00:00:36.870 --> 00:00:39.272
And then when we don't have a say

00:00:39.806 --> 00:00:42.108
then the adult can do what they want

00:00:42.609 --> 00:00:45.211
and we can't do anything to stop them.

00:00:46.713 --> 00:00:49.716
Imagine if there was a concept of fairness

00:00:50.050 --> 00:00:54.054
that people could use
to hold politicians to account.

00:00:54.521 --> 00:00:56.923
Now, that, I think would be a first.

00:00:58.358 --> 00:01:01.094
I would say the question is
why does oppression matter?

00:01:01.227 --> 00:01:04.964
Why does it matter
that entire groups of people

00:01:04.998 --> 00:01:09.269
don't have the same kind of opportunity
and access that others do?

00:01:10.904 --> 00:01:15.875
Fairness is an acceptance that we live
very interconnected lives.

00:01:16.609 --> 00:01:19.612
We need to roll back on this idea
that the only thing,

00:01:19.946 --> 00:01:23.049
the only measure of success is financial
wealth.

00:02:02.188 --> 00:02:07.494
One of the most striking features of the modern
world is the fact that inequality has risen

00:02:07.527 --> 00:02:11.064
in democratic countries,
without any real popular uprising.

00:02:12.265 --> 00:02:15.401
How is it that so many people can view

00:02:15.635 --> 00:02:20.006
these huge inequalities as fair?

00:02:21.107 --> 00:02:23.176
Why do people accept

00:02:23.209 --> 00:02:25.211
the kind of winner takes all society?

00:02:34.954 --> 00:02:37.590
What you will see today is a lab experiment

00:02:37.624 --> 00:02:40.126
that looks at economic decision making.

00:02:42.128 --> 00:02:44.063
Up to now, much of economic

00:02:44.063 --> 00:02:47.000
reasoning has been
that all inequalities are bad.

00:02:47.667 --> 00:02:49.936
But what we will see today
is that people,

00:02:49.969 --> 00:02:51.838
people have different ideas about that.

00:02:51.871 --> 00:02:53.039
So some people say,

00:02:53.072 --> 00:02:55.575
well, there are fair inequalities
in there, unfair inequalities.

00:02:56.843 --> 00:02:57.477
Okay.

00:02:57.510 --> 00:02:59.812
So everybody should now see
the instructions.

00:03:00.146 --> 00:03:03.016
Just take your time
and read them carefully and let us know

00:03:03.049 --> 00:03:04.384
when you have questions.

00:03:07.587 --> 00:03:09.255
They will first do a task.

00:03:09.289 --> 00:03:12.225
They will add numbers
and they will earn points.

00:03:12.292 --> 00:03:13.526
By doing that.

00:03:15.895 --> 00:03:19.799
Then we match or pair two participants
who have both been part of this.

00:03:19.999 --> 00:03:23.403
Then we say to each of them, well,
now it's your choice.

00:03:23.436 --> 00:03:26.906
I mean, here is the total amount of money
that you and this other guy produced,

00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:30.410
and you are now to decide
how to share this pie.

00:03:30.643 --> 00:03:33.513
It's a very simple task.
And and that's it.

00:03:33.546 --> 00:03:34.847
Nothing will happen afterwards.

00:03:34.847 --> 00:03:37.884
I mean, if you take all the money, you can
you can take all the money home.

00:03:37.917 --> 00:03:40.186
If you share with the other guy,
we'll get some of the money.

00:03:46.326 --> 00:03:47.827
We want to have people make

00:03:47.827 --> 00:03:51.130
decisions in real economic situations
where there are real stakes.

00:03:51.197 --> 00:03:54.867
So when we tell them that take on
their own money, they actually earn money.

00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:08.448
Okay, so I'll start

00:04:08.448 --> 00:04:11.918
explaining what we found in the experiment that we did.

00:04:12.385 --> 00:04:17.423
People who produce less than others,
they actually give away much more.

00:04:17.757 --> 00:04:22.695
This notion of meritocracy
as fairness, this notion

00:04:22.729 --> 00:04:27.367
that a guy who has done better deserves
more, is a powerful notion.

00:04:27.400 --> 00:04:30.169
And we see it very clearly in this experiment.

00:04:31.771 --> 00:04:33.840
People are willing to accept

00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:38.211
almost any inequality if they view it
as a result of a competition.

00:04:39.112 --> 00:04:40.847
This is something you have
from sports, right?

00:04:40.880 --> 00:04:43.716
Even if somebody just wins
by a millisecond,

00:04:44.183 --> 00:04:46.853
he deserves gold and all the money.

00:04:47.487 --> 00:04:48.755
And you find that fair?

00:04:48.755 --> 00:04:52.191
And essentially,
I think some of that logic is taking into

00:04:52.425 --> 00:04:53.526
the economic sphere.

00:04:55.628 --> 00:04:59.165
We need to think carefully
about how the institutions are shaping

00:04:59.232 --> 00:05:01.534
the future generation’s ideas of fairness.

00:05:02.335 --> 00:05:05.071
So in Norway, it's the case that,
I mean, kids

00:05:05.104 --> 00:05:07.907
are treated in an extremely egalitarian manner

00:05:08.308 --> 00:05:12.045
up until they are around
12 years old, before adolescence.

00:05:12.078 --> 00:05:15.481
So then there is no very little
grading in school.

00:05:15.748 --> 00:05:18.184
When you play football,
if your team is down,

00:05:18.251 --> 00:05:20.586
you are allowed to add players,
so it evens out.

00:05:20.653 --> 00:05:23.523
So there are all these egalitarian institutions.

00:05:23.956 --> 00:05:26.125
But actually this changes a lot in Norway.

00:05:26.159 --> 00:05:30.630
When kids go into adolescence, then
the institutions become very meritocratic.

00:05:30.663 --> 00:05:33.800
We really reward that better performance
in sports.

00:05:33.833 --> 00:05:35.435
We start grading and so on.

00:05:35.468 --> 00:05:38.571
And I mean, the institutions shape
their ideas of fairness

00:05:38.571 --> 00:05:40.606
and turn them into meritocrats.

00:05:42.075 --> 00:05:45.745
Another really, really fascinating line
here is a lot of people,

00:05:45.878 --> 00:05:49.282
about 30% actually don't give anything.

00:05:49.716 --> 00:05:52.085
They don't give anything to the other guy.

00:05:52.118 --> 00:05:54.053
The students are actually outliers
typically.

00:05:54.053 --> 00:05:56.356
And in particular, students
at the business school.

00:05:56.389 --> 00:05:59.726
You're actually looking
at the most selfish group that we more

00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:02.762
or less have identified a part
from very young kids.

00:06:02.762 --> 00:06:05.998
Business students are the most selfish people
you would ever meet.

00:06:18.611 --> 00:06:21.614
I earnt £60,000 when I was 26.

00:06:23.015 --> 00:06:25.551
You shouldn't have put your ginger in just at this point.

00:06:25.585 --> 00:06:26.452
but it doesn't matter.

00:06:26.452 --> 00:06:28.554
But you just need to cook this until it’s

00:06:28.554 --> 00:06:29.856
golden brown.

00:06:31.224 --> 00:06:34.026
I had an old school friend
who is now a teacher.

00:06:34.594 --> 00:06:37.363
I would have been in my,
I suppose, early thirties,

00:06:37.797 --> 00:06:39.966
She didn't think that it was fair

00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.237
that I got paid so much and she got paid so little.

00:06:45.204 --> 00:06:48.174
And I argued with her

00:06:49.776 --> 00:06:52.879
and I said, Well, you know, people like me

00:06:53.946 --> 00:06:56.582
we’re, you know, we're hard to find

00:06:57.183 --> 00:07:01.354
there’s market principles behind this, you know,
I mean, you know, there's lots of people

00:07:01.421 --> 00:07:02.555
who could be a teacher,

00:07:02.622 --> 00:07:04.690
but there's not that many people
who could do what I do

00:07:05.024 --> 00:07:11.931
Did you burn it? I burnt it too so I can’t really criticise!

00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.036
Why do we get paid so much?

00:07:17.370 --> 00:07:21.641
there's just so much money
floating around in the city

00:07:22.241 --> 00:07:25.745
and there's so much scope to make money
when you're dealing

00:07:25.778 --> 00:07:29.048
with millions, hundreds of millions,
possibly even billions.

00:07:29.415 --> 00:07:32.318
Honestly, if you go around the city
and you just forced everybody's

00:07:32.351 --> 00:07:36.189
salaries down by half,
how many people would actually have left?

00:07:36.889 --> 00:07:39.225
I don't think anyone would have left.

00:07:39.859 --> 00:07:44.497
So if you if you'd like to buy it’s only,
50p for all of it.

00:07:44.831 --> 00:07:48.201
Bags of taste is a behavioral change program that

00:07:48.501 --> 00:07:50.002
ultimately, they go through the whole thing

00:07:50.236 --> 00:07:52.772
and they find that they magically cook
at the end of it.

00:07:54.073 --> 00:07:57.176
We designed recipes that cost less than £1 a portion to make

00:07:57.210 --> 00:07:59.879
so that they're comparable to fast foods and things.

00:08:00.546 --> 00:08:02.348
We know there's an issue of debt

00:08:02.348 --> 00:08:04.617
amongst people who are on lower incomes.

00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:07.854
So much of where we are in life is luck. And

00:08:09.121 --> 00:08:11.591
I don't know how many people really appreciate that,

00:08:11.724 --> 00:08:13.826
They always think it's their own merit.

00:08:14.060 --> 00:08:16.128
And in fact, the research shows
that generally isn't their own merit.

00:08:16.128 --> 00:08:17.930
It's very often luck,

00:08:18.264 --> 00:08:21.167
but the richer you are, the more you think
that you're just brilliant, you know.

00:08:21.467 --> 00:08:22.001
And and.

00:08:22.034 --> 00:08:22.969
Yeah, I think I'm brilliant.

00:08:22.969 --> 00:08:23.870
Of course I think I'm brilliant.

00:08:23.970 --> 00:08:27.507
But, you know, I am also very conscious
that it's just luck.

00:08:27.507 --> 00:08:30.209
The people that I met, the parents that I had,

00:08:30.209 --> 00:08:31.878
the education I was given.

00:08:32.812 --> 00:08:35.982
And I see people that have nothing of what I have,
literally nothing.

00:08:35.982 --> 00:08:37.416
And they were just unlucky.

00:08:38.050 --> 00:08:39.418
I just don't think that's fair.

00:08:39.685 --> 00:08:40.553
That just isn't fair.

00:08:40.553 --> 00:08:43.022
And if I can help that, I will.

00:08:43.890 --> 00:08:44.557
You know,

00:08:45.758 --> 00:08:47.159
I stopped short of selling my house

00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:49.962
and equally distributing all the money to everybody.

00:08:50.463 --> 00:08:52.365
So that probably is, you know, my own.

00:08:53.099 --> 00:08:54.867
That's that's that's my own limit.

00:09:10.683 --> 00:09:13.819
London is a playground for the rich,

00:09:13.853 --> 00:09:17.323
a treadmill of the middle classes

00:09:19.859 --> 00:09:22.929
and a warehouse for the poor.

00:09:22.962 --> 00:09:24.964
And our purpose, or at least my purpose.

00:09:24.964 --> 00:09:29.135
My intention is to try something new.

00:09:29.168 --> 00:09:29.635
Really.

00:09:29.635 --> 00:09:35.374
It's to see if we can have a debate
about fairness that results in Londoners

00:09:35.408 --> 00:09:39.445
owning what fairness is,
as opposed to politicians.

00:09:39.912 --> 00:09:43.449
And I'll just be honest, I get completely,
utterly fed up with the notion that,

00:09:44.450 --> 00:09:47.753
you know, doesn’t matter which political party
somebody is telling us what's fair

00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:48.821
and what isn't.

00:09:48.955 --> 00:09:51.490
It's a bit like social justice
like department directorate.

00:09:51.524 --> 00:09:53.159
You own fairness!

00:09:53.192 --> 00:09:54.860
Londoners own fairness.

00:09:54.894 --> 00:09:55.928
You decide what fairness is.

00:10:01.467 --> 00:10:03.836
If you can create a consensus

00:10:03.836 --> 00:10:05.871
that fairness can be owned by the people,

00:10:06.305 --> 00:10:08.441
it actually speaks to the notion
that our politicians

00:10:08.708 --> 00:10:10.910
should fear the public,
not the other way around.

00:10:10.943 --> 00:10:14.413
I think it's cheating
when politicians on the left or the right

00:10:14.547 --> 00:10:18.684
or the center say, well, it's, you know, that's fair or unfair.

00:10:18.784 --> 00:10:21.153
The question that should be asking is,
what do you think?

00:10:21.387 --> 00:10:26.592
The thing that I find obscene
is the term affordable for housing.

00:10:26.892 --> 00:10:29.695
It's a need-  look at Maslow's hierarchy.

00:10:30.830 --> 00:10:33.699
Having a roof over
your head is one of those basic things.

00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:36.669
The Fairness Commission
was the first London-wide

00:10:36.736 --> 00:10:39.605
attempt to look at fairness across the city,

00:10:39.872 --> 00:10:43.242
and it's the first attempt
to do that really since about 1890.

00:10:44.510 --> 00:10:47.413
Booth...who invented the poverty line

00:10:47.747 --> 00:10:48.714
And we're talking about fairness.

00:10:48.714 --> 00:10:50.750
What does that mean?
When we say that we've got legislation.

00:10:50.783 --> 00:10:52.518
We’ve got policies, we've got.....

00:10:52.718 --> 00:10:54.820
What I hope to achieve through the Fairness
Commission

00:10:54.820 --> 00:10:57.289
is what constitutes a fair city?

00:10:58.491 --> 00:11:02.128
What policies mitigate towards

00:11:02.294 --> 00:11:03.095
fairness?

00:11:05.665 --> 00:11:10.736
All I keep thinking back to is people
just sitting and doing hundreds of applications.

00:11:11.404 --> 00:11:12.738
And not hearing back from anything.

00:11:12.972 --> 00:11:18.077
The most visceral feelings, the most deep
feelings of unfairness were in London's young.

00:11:18.411 --> 00:11:21.547
Some parents wants to help their kids.

00:11:21.981 --> 00:11:23.649
But they can't because of this and this and that.

00:11:24.250 --> 00:11:29.121
The notion of meritocracy is a fantasy.
Poor kids that are born intelligent, i.e.

00:11:29.155 --> 00:11:34.326
more intelligent than their richer counterparts
are overtaken by their less intelligent,

00:11:34.326 --> 00:11:36.395
wealthy counterparts by the age of seven

00:11:36.595 --> 00:11:39.598
as a direct result of access, privilege.

00:11:40.099 --> 00:11:42.001
Now, that can't be good for society.

00:11:42.234 --> 00:11:44.570
Okay the next one is house prices.

00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:46.772
Where am I going to live? Says Hannah.

00:11:47.073 --> 00:11:50.176
There's a feeling, certainly
when I talk to young people in London

00:11:50.409 --> 00:11:53.145
that they are being cut out of the equation.

00:11:54.613 --> 00:11:58.684
I would not want to see a capital city which has

00:12:00.753 --> 00:12:02.555
a well, it's been a kind of

00:12:02.555 --> 00:12:03.723
social cleansing.

00:12:10.696 --> 00:12:12.298
People have called me an idealist.

00:12:12.364 --> 00:12:14.533
The Fairness commission, what a ridiculous thing.

00:12:14.533 --> 00:12:18.437
It strikes me that often the people who
say ‘the world is unfair get used to it’

00:12:18.604 --> 00:12:22.074
Are the people who've benefited from unfairness

00:12:26.145 --> 00:12:29.882
I believe human beings are born with a sense of fairness.

00:12:29.915 --> 00:12:34.887
But society can just structurally condition
people to not give a damn really.

00:12:35.421 --> 00:12:40.526
Or it can create the conditions in which people
will choose to go with what is inherently human nature.

00:12:54.473 --> 00:12:58.244
Our work largely looks at notions of helping and harming

00:12:59.211 --> 00:13:01.247
Your head is like half your body weight.

00:13:01.413 --> 00:13:05.251
Good work. Take your shark

00:13:05.951 --> 00:13:09.221
There's a sense in fairness
in how people should treat each other.

00:13:09.488 --> 00:13:14.660
And so I'm really curious to discover
whether that has any origins in infancy.

00:13:16.662 --> 00:13:18.731
Luna do you want to play a game with us?

00:13:19.999 --> 00:13:22.067
Yeah, Should we go play a game.

00:13:22.434 --> 00:13:24.537
Yeah, yeah. Okay, can mummy come too?

00:13:24.637 --> 00:13:25.371
Yeah, yeah.

00:13:25.404 --> 00:13:25.738
Okay.

00:13:25.938 --> 00:13:28.374
In this study, we're asking whether infants

00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:32.978
are responding nicer
to those who've been nice to others

00:13:33.312 --> 00:13:37.616
and potentially less nicely to those who've been mean to others.

00:13:43.455 --> 00:13:47.293
Infants first watch a interaction
where there's one character

00:13:47.326 --> 00:13:48.627
who has an unfulfilled goal.

00:13:48.627 --> 00:13:54.433
He's trying and failing to jump up
onto a shelf to get an airplane toy.

00:13:57.069 --> 00:14:03.008
One of them runs up, jumps on top of the
shelf and gives the boy the airplane toy.

00:14:03.175 --> 00:14:04.577
So this is the nice puppet.

00:14:09.114 --> 00:14:10.749
The other puppet is the mean puppet.

00:14:19.124 --> 00:14:21.493
Oh Wow! A duck!

00:14:24.430 --> 00:14:25.931
Quack, quack.

00:14:25.965 --> 00:14:28.667
Later we show infants

00:14:28.701 --> 00:14:33.739
that one of the characters, either
the girl who was nice or the girl who is mean,

00:14:33.739 --> 00:14:36.308
has a preference for one kind of toy over another.

00:14:37.142 --> 00:14:40.546
What we do is see whether infants respond differently

00:14:40.546 --> 00:14:43.916
depending on whether the character
was helpful before or unhelpful before.

00:14:44.149 --> 00:14:45.651
Oh, goodie!

00:14:45.684 --> 00:14:47.419
Can you give me one?

00:14:56.061 --> 00:14:59.565
What we find is that when children
are interacting with the mean puppet,

00:14:59.932 --> 00:15:02.568
about a third of them say,
No, you can't have anything at all.

00:15:02.868 --> 00:15:06.972
About a third of them
give her the toy that she disliked,

00:15:07.006 --> 00:15:09.008
and about a third of them
give her the toy she liked.

00:15:09.074 --> 00:15:12.011
So they seem much less careful
about being nice

00:15:12.044 --> 00:15:14.179
if you are previously mean
to somebody else.

00:15:14.213 --> 00:15:16.315
Can you give me one?

00:15:17.082 --> 00:15:21.186
When they do give something
to the one that was nice,

00:15:21.387 --> 00:15:24.290
they all give the toy that she liked.

00:15:24.423 --> 00:15:25.057
Hello!

00:15:26.692 --> 00:15:27.726
A hug for Mr Lion?

00:15:29.061 --> 00:15:30.629
Give them a big hug.

00:15:30.629 --> 00:15:32.531
So sweet.

00:15:32.564 --> 00:15:36.135
We find that very young
infants are already sort of showing

00:15:36.168 --> 00:15:39.338
positive emotional benefits from being generous.

00:15:40.706 --> 00:15:41.473
Yeah. You don't mind sharing.

00:15:41.573 --> 00:15:43.776
You just didn't want to share
with that nasty puppet.

00:15:45.744 --> 00:15:48.147
Right now in the lab,
we're running studies looking at

00:15:48.147 --> 00:15:51.984
whether younger babies
also show the same patterns.

00:15:52.151 --> 00:15:53.085
There you go.

00:15:53.719 --> 00:15:54.920
Are you practicing your baby push ups?

00:15:55.554 --> 00:15:59.858
At least by three months of age infants
seem particularly sensitive to harm.

00:16:00.359 --> 00:16:05.164
To me, that is the strongest evidence
that there is something innate

00:16:05.164 --> 00:16:09.301
going on here, because it's unlikely,
I would argue, that they're experiencing

00:16:09.368 --> 00:16:11.337
in the first couple of months
of their life

00:16:11.403 --> 00:16:14.473
much anti social action
happening in their environment.

00:16:17.910 --> 00:16:21.013
Animal puppets?
Do you want to see some animal puppets?

00:16:21.680 --> 00:16:22.247
No.

00:16:22.715 --> 00:16:26.819
One thing that we’ve found with infants that's not particularly nice

00:16:27.486 --> 00:16:31.090
Infants seem to have very strong in-group biases.

00:16:31.290 --> 00:16:33.993
They like it when you help strangers.

00:16:34.393 --> 00:16:36.829
They like it when you help those who they like,

00:16:37.329 --> 00:16:39.999
but they like it when you harm those who they dislike.

00:16:40.332 --> 00:16:42.468
Hey, you want to try some?

00:16:46.038 --> 00:16:47.373
She's a cracker fan.

00:16:47.439 --> 00:16:48.574
She is.

00:16:49.008 --> 00:16:53.479
Yuck! I don't like gram crackers.

00:16:53.779 --> 00:16:56.382
Infants, as young as nine months of age,

00:16:56.715 --> 00:17:00.019
like it when you harm those who simply
don't share their food preference.

00:17:01.854 --> 00:17:06.558
The similarity of a baby to an adult
is sort of very striking.

00:17:07.059 --> 00:17:10.729
They have this ability to show
remarkable bias

00:17:10.796 --> 00:17:14.833
depending on very simple, you know, do you
are you similar to me or not?

00:17:15.134 --> 00:17:16.769
I can't hold any more.

00:17:16.835 --> 00:17:21.140
So it seems as though the origins of sort
of liking goodness and fairness

00:17:21.273 --> 00:17:26.145
may be present extremely early on,
but also the origins of biases

00:17:26.178 --> 00:17:30.716
for the in-group and disliking difference
in other individuals.

00:17:30.749 --> 00:17:33.152
That's present really early on too.

00:17:33.385 --> 00:17:40.793
And so, development might be learning to sort of
distinguish between what is the right kind of fair behavior

00:17:40.926 --> 00:17:42.227
and what's the wrong kind.

00:18:01.713 --> 00:18:06.018
I think fairness is one of those things
that people feel very strongly about.

00:18:10.522 --> 00:18:14.159
One of the things that we'd like to know more about is
Why?

00:18:14.693 --> 00:18:16.962
What's the evolutionary function of this behavior?

00:18:19.731 --> 00:18:24.103
So this is the primate center and you can go inside...

00:18:24.837 --> 00:18:26.004
and see the monkeys.

00:18:32.044 --> 00:18:33.612
Here's the cucumber.

00:18:34.580 --> 00:18:36.849
I have to have gloves on when I'm touching food.

00:18:38.917 --> 00:18:41.587
Generally speaking, the sweeter
something is, the better they like it.

00:18:41.620 --> 00:18:45.023
So, one good way of judging
what they're going to like best

00:18:45.057 --> 00:18:48.961
is if it's expensive in the supermarket,
that means they like it.

00:18:49.428 --> 00:18:51.797
So their most preferred foods
are the grapes,

00:18:52.564 --> 00:18:55.467
and their second
most preferred food is actually cucumbers.

00:18:55.667 --> 00:18:58.170
So they like cucumbers quite a lot,
and then their least

00:18:58.604 --> 00:18:59.838
preferred food is the bell peppers.

00:19:02.307 --> 00:19:06.078
So when we do these studies, what we're really
measuring is inequity aversion,

00:19:06.078 --> 00:19:10.349
or how individuals respond when they get a
less valuable reward than their partner does.

00:19:10.883 --> 00:19:11.550
See, these?

00:19:13.018 --> 00:19:14.186
Those are food calls.

00:19:14.186 --> 00:19:16.622
The little hoo, hoo, hoo, means they're excited.

00:19:17.189 --> 00:19:21.894
So this is Logan and this is Liam
and we're going to do a trade and Liam's

00:19:22.027 --> 00:19:26.064
going to trade and he's going to get a bell pepper
and then Logan's going to trade and get a grape.

00:19:26.298 --> 00:19:29.668
So sometimes we get really interesting
responses where they get very upset.

00:19:29.701 --> 00:19:34.106
They'll bang on the cage or throw tokens,
or sometimes they'll just go in the back

00:19:34.139 --> 00:19:36.275
and they'll refuse to come over
and interact with us at all.

00:19:37.009 --> 00:19:38.510
Here you go Logan.

00:19:39.311 --> 00:19:40.846
Good job!

00:19:41.380 --> 00:19:42.047
See this?

00:19:45.284 --> 00:19:45.851
Liam?

00:19:47.753 --> 00:19:49.188
Here you go Liam

00:19:50.122 --> 00:19:50.856
Hand that back.

00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:56.395
Not interested?

00:19:56.962 --> 00:20:02.000
We don't quite understand why fairness
causes this outraged reaction,

00:20:02.134 --> 00:20:03.669
but we know it does.

00:20:03.702 --> 00:20:06.071
The question is, if people are getting enough,

00:20:06.338 --> 00:20:08.440
why should they care
if some individuals are getting more?

00:20:08.473 --> 00:20:09.808
And yet we clearly do.

00:20:12.444 --> 00:20:16.949
The reaction to fairness itself
is probably actually at heart an emotional reaction.

00:20:17.115 --> 00:20:20.452
It's just that frustration,
that moment of realization

00:20:20.485 --> 00:20:21.220
that you're getting less.

00:20:23.755 --> 00:20:27.459
One of the hypotheses about the sense
of fairness is that it's a mechanism

00:20:27.492 --> 00:20:30.796
by which individuals determine
the value of their cooperative partners.

00:20:31.330 --> 00:20:34.566
If you're working with someone else
and you begin to feel frustrated

00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:37.703
because you feel like they're
taking more than you, then that can be

00:20:37.736 --> 00:20:41.673
an easy rule of thumb that it's time
to go find another cooperative partner.

00:20:42.207 --> 00:20:47.246
And this is true whether you're talking about humans or
other species such as primates, dogs or wolves.

00:20:47.546 --> 00:20:49.214
Liam.

00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:53.919
Liam, Liam.

00:20:54.419 --> 00:20:57.155
For a long time, cooperation was ignored
because it was considered

00:20:57.189 --> 00:21:00.759
to be antithetical
to this idea of natural selection,

00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:02.728
where it's every individual
for themselves.

00:21:04.596 --> 00:21:05.731
They're faster than I am.

00:21:05.931 --> 00:21:10.068
And it's true that that is the goal
of evolution, but that overlooks the fact

00:21:10.135 --> 00:21:13.405
that sometimes you can best meet that goal
by working together.

00:21:14.006 --> 00:21:14.640
See this?

00:21:15.107 --> 00:21:18.777
And that's where I think we could learn
a lesson from capuchin monkeys.

00:21:18.810 --> 00:21:21.813
We need to be careful not to always be
the ones that are dominating

00:21:21.847 --> 00:21:25.083
and taking the grape and make sure
that others get them sometimes as well.

00:21:45.370 --> 00:21:49.074
There was a lot of cutting down
on transfers to poor people,

00:21:49.341 --> 00:21:51.777
to single household families in the U.S.

00:21:52.177 --> 00:21:53.245
and throughout Europe.

00:21:54.346 --> 00:21:56.148
And what validates this

00:21:56.181 --> 00:22:00.786
is this idea of personal responsibility
or deservedness.

00:22:01.253 --> 00:22:03.455
The poor should be held
responsible for their choices.

00:22:04.956 --> 00:22:09.027
So this is a very powerful notion,
but it raises an enormously important

00:22:09.361 --> 00:22:12.597
and complicated question, namely,
so what is a ‘choice’?

00:22:15.434 --> 00:22:18.570
In this experiment your choice will definitely count.

00:22:19.237 --> 00:22:22.274
This is not like a survey question
or hypothetical or anything like that.

00:22:22.341 --> 00:22:23.775
You actually determine it.

00:22:24.910 --> 00:22:28.680
So we will actually transfer the money that
you have decided that each of them should get

00:22:28.914 --> 00:22:30.849
and this will be implemented
within a few days.

00:22:33.618 --> 00:22:38.457
The students were actually facing a real situation
where two people had worked for the Choice Lab.

00:22:38.824 --> 00:22:41.893
these two guys had just randomly been paid differently.

00:22:42.027 --> 00:22:44.796
So one guy was paid 800
and the other guy had been paid nothing.

00:22:45.731 --> 00:22:47.499
And now we asked some ot the students.

00:22:47.532 --> 00:22:52.604
Do you want to redistribute between the guy who earnt
everything and the guy who earnt nothing for the same job?

00:22:52.604 --> 00:22:55.841
and most students say, yes, yes,
we want to do that.

00:22:56.041 --> 00:22:58.944
So here Worker A was more lucky.

00:22:59.344 --> 00:23:02.614
And for me it was equal that we treated it equally.

00:23:02.781 --> 00:23:06.918
So I gave 400 of what A got to B.

00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:07.919
Okay.

00:23:07.986 --> 00:23:09.588
So that was the base treatment?

00:23:09.621 --> 00:23:11.423
No, we did two manipulations.

00:23:11.423 --> 00:23:14.893
So some of you looked at different
treatments and here are these different. treatments...

00:23:15.026 --> 00:23:18.096
In this case,
it was a choice that had no value.

00:23:18.130 --> 00:23:19.798
I mean, they would
still be exposed to the luck.

00:23:19.798 --> 00:23:22.901
So you can either
just take 25 points for sure,

00:23:24.603 --> 00:23:26.638
or you can choose to take part in a lottery

00:23:27.806 --> 00:23:30.342
and the winner of the lottery
will get 800.

00:23:30.375 --> 00:23:32.477
A loser will get zero

00:23:33.545 --> 00:23:35.947
As soon as choice is introduced
to the picture,

00:23:36.314 --> 00:23:39.785
people say, well, now the inequality
is acceptable to a much greater extent.

00:23:39.818 --> 00:23:41.319
I mean, they did a choice

00:23:42.521 --> 00:23:47.859
Well, yeah, I thought this guy lost the lottery
that he chose to participate in ...and so...

00:23:49.327 --> 00:23:52.664
But a lot of people claim that the situation that the poor are in

00:23:53.265 --> 00:23:57.736
is their responsibility because it reflects choices they did.

00:23:58.303 --> 00:24:00.872
It reflects that they didn't take an education.

00:24:01.239 --> 00:24:03.275
It reflects that they divorced.

00:24:03.542 --> 00:24:05.844
It reflects that they don't work full time.

00:24:07.479 --> 00:24:09.781
But now we have to step take one step back and say,

00:24:09.815 --> 00:24:13.418
well, yes, they did these choices, but what were the alternatives?

00:24:13.752 --> 00:24:18.890
Could they really I mean, pursue
an education without giving up everything basically?

00:24:19.090 --> 00:24:20.225
Could even access education?

00:24:20.258 --> 00:24:21.726
This is, of course, an even deeper question.

00:24:22.427 --> 00:24:26.364
So basically, this is tremendously important because it raises

00:24:26.364 --> 00:24:32.070
this fundamental question, when we see this kind of
justification for cutting down on transfers to the poor,

00:24:32.471 --> 00:24:33.872
Is this a good justificat or not?

00:24:34.473 --> 00:24:40.011
We know in the US  that personal responsibility is brought
into the discussion about health and many other issues.

00:24:40.011 --> 00:24:42.914
Do we think that the people
who reported to be left wing

00:24:43.081 --> 00:24:46.485
behave differently than the people
reporting to be right wing?

00:24:47.285 --> 00:24:48.487
Any thoughts?

00:25:08.673 --> 00:25:12.911
I was very much on the left. I hated Ronald Reagan.
I loved Bill Clinton.

00:25:13.211 --> 00:25:17.082
I began studying political psychology in the early 2000’s

00:25:17.382 --> 00:25:20.552
because I couldn't stand how badly the Democrats were doing.

00:25:21.152 --> 00:25:23.121
They just didn't know how to talk about morality.

00:25:23.154 --> 00:25:27.058
And I began studying political psychology
in order to help the Democrats

00:25:27.492 --> 00:25:30.295
speak better- it was my part of my goal.

00:25:30.328 --> 00:25:33.565
And in the process of studying
political psychology, I made a commitment

00:25:33.598 --> 00:25:35.634
to really understanding conservatives.

00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:37.702
I read conservative books and magazines.

00:25:37.736 --> 00:25:39.538
I listened to the way they talk.

00:25:39.571 --> 00:25:41.172
And I came to see that they're not crazy.

00:25:41.206 --> 00:25:44.175
That actually there are a lot of insights into society,

00:25:44.342 --> 00:25:46.578
family, marriage, respect

00:25:47.445 --> 00:25:50.982
that are quite important
for running a decent society.

00:25:51.683 --> 00:25:54.452
I ended up basically
dropping out of politics.

00:25:54.486 --> 00:25:56.955
I'm nonpartisan. I try to understand all sides.

00:26:06.197 --> 00:26:09.301
The left is really focused on equality.

00:26:09.367 --> 00:26:15.240
They focus on - are different groups getting equal outcomes?

00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:16.341
and obviously they're not.

00:26:16.408 --> 00:26:20.111
We have big racial differences
in wealth, in health and education.

00:26:20.478 --> 00:26:23.848
So if you focus on equality of outcome,
we sure don't have it in America.

00:26:23.882 --> 00:26:25.183
And the left focuses on that.

00:26:26.384 --> 00:26:28.920
But if you focus on proportionality,

00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.489
that is, are people getting out in proportion, their inputs?

00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:35.160
Well, you know, certain ethnic groups
have much higher rates of employment and marriage.

00:26:35.226 --> 00:26:37.562
They raise their kids,
they devote themselves to their kids.

00:26:37.929 --> 00:26:40.131
Asians in America do extremely well.

00:26:40.165 --> 00:26:41.466
They're richer than whites.

00:26:41.533 --> 00:26:42.767
Is that unfair?

00:26:44.603 --> 00:26:46.204
On the right, people say no.

00:26:46.204 --> 00:26:49.307
On the right, people say,
if you work hard, you should get ahead.

00:26:52.110 --> 00:26:56.081
One of the most important factors
causing racial inequality in this country

00:26:56.348 --> 00:27:00.118
is that the black family began
to disintegrate in the 1960s.

00:27:00.352 --> 00:27:03.188
Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan
wrote a report on this,

00:27:03.188 --> 00:27:07.993
warned that if out-of-wedlock birth rates
keep rising, it's going to be a disaster

00:27:08.026 --> 00:27:09.494
for African-Americans.

00:27:09.527 --> 00:27:11.029
He was called a racist.

00:27:11.029 --> 00:27:12.364
People wouldn't talk to him.

00:27:12.364 --> 00:27:17.068
How dare you blame black people for their, for by saying that

00:27:17.135 --> 00:27:20.438
they've contributed to the inequalities
and to the problems in society?

00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.174
Well,
it turns out Moynihan was exactly right.

00:27:23.208 --> 00:27:26.645
Things have gotten much, much worse
for the black family.  Marriage is,

00:27:27.712 --> 00:27:28.880
along with education, the

00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:33.051
two gigantic causes of success
or failure in life.

00:27:33.084 --> 00:27:33.918
If you're raised

00:27:33.952 --> 00:27:36.287
in an unstable family environment
without married parents,

00:27:36.454 --> 00:27:37.889
you're unlikely to move up.

00:27:37.922 --> 00:27:40.992
Whereas if your parents are married and
your poor, your very likely to move up.

00:27:41.893 --> 00:27:45.363
So we have this mess in
the social sciences, in the United States,

00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:54.005
in which our social scientists will not consider hypotheses.
that in any way implicate sacred victim groups.

00:27:54.005 --> 00:27:55.273
And this, I believe,

00:27:55.306 --> 00:27:58.243
has led to the breakdown
of the social sciences,

00:27:58.610 --> 00:28:02.313
not in all matters,, but in matters that
involve race, gender, class,

00:28:02.313 --> 00:28:05.050
other highly politicized topics.

00:28:07.352 --> 00:28:09.487
I tweeted out this

00:28:09.554 --> 00:28:12.991
this tweet stream about privilege,

00:28:13.558 --> 00:28:17.095
and I essentially compared it to walking up to the bank

00:28:17.529 --> 00:28:20.198
and having an extra million dollars in your bank account.

00:28:20.231 --> 00:28:22.133
You have no idea where it came from,

00:28:22.133 --> 00:28:24.135
You know, it wasn't a part of your salary,

00:28:24.169 --> 00:28:26.104
You know you didn't earn it some of way.

00:28:27.372 --> 00:28:30.809
First you might look at it suspiciously,
but eventually you start to spend it

00:28:30.909 --> 00:28:32.811
and you spend it on things
that you care about, right?

00:28:32.944 --> 00:28:36.414
You spend it on your family,
you spend it on your friends, spend it on

00:28:36.448 --> 00:28:39.484
buying a better house,
getting your kids into a better school,

00:28:39.718 --> 00:28:42.487
making sure your child doesn't
have to take out loans for college.

00:28:42.520 --> 00:28:44.389
All the right things. Right?

00:28:44.522 --> 00:28:47.926
Eventually, though, you start
to convince yourself that it was yours all along

00:28:48.126 --> 00:28:51.563
because you don't remember
what it was like to ever live without it.

00:28:51.930 --> 00:28:54.999
Suddenly it just becomes so natural
and so innate to you

00:28:55.033 --> 00:28:57.469
that you have convinced yourself
that you deserve it

00:28:57.836 --> 00:29:00.672
and that anyone who tries
to take it from you, even though it wasn't

00:29:00.705 --> 00:29:02.040
yours in the first place, is a thief.

00:29:04.609 --> 00:29:06.711
That million bucks
was not given to you freely.

00:29:06.745 --> 00:29:09.414
It was given to you
off the backs of people who suffered,

00:29:09.681 --> 00:29:10.915
who shouldn't have been stolen from.

00:29:10.915 --> 00:29:13.351
And yet you refused to let go.

00:29:16.054 --> 00:29:19.591
There are about 60 kids that I taught.

00:29:19.891 --> 00:29:21.359
Third graders.

00:29:21.392 --> 00:29:23.995
Who were so brilliant

00:29:24.028 --> 00:29:28.333
and so curious and thoughtful
and funny and kind

00:29:28.733 --> 00:29:31.803
and just all of the things
that lots of people

00:29:31.836 --> 00:29:34.806
don't believe about them are true.

00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:37.475
All of my children were black,
except for one.

00:29:38.109 --> 00:29:40.478
All of them lived in a low
income neighborhood.

00:29:41.746 --> 00:29:44.115
I think when children experience
inequity,

00:29:45.283 --> 00:29:47.652
it severely limits their imagination.

00:29:48.386 --> 00:29:53.024
Children see what other schools look like,
what their facilities look like, then wonder,

00:29:53.024 --> 00:29:54.926
why is my school not the same?

00:29:55.994 --> 00:29:59.063
They can't see themselves
participating in innovation.

00:29:59.430 --> 00:30:03.802
They're already starting to internalize
those things.

00:30:03.835 --> 00:30:07.305
People will say, you know,
this is about being politically correct.

00:30:07.305 --> 00:30:11.810
No, it's actually about treating people as people
and recognizing that marginalized people

00:30:11.843 --> 00:30:17.549
deserve the same full range of access
that everyone else does.

00:30:17.649 --> 00:30:21.152
I absolutely just don't think it's fair
to say it all comes down to the parents

00:30:21.152 --> 00:30:22.554
and how much they nudge you.

00:30:22.787 --> 00:30:27.525
When parents have been acculturated to certain
things, have experienced inequity themselves,

00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:31.930
a lot of them are caught in circumstances
where the kind of time, the access

00:30:31.963 --> 00:30:37.035
to opportunity that they want to be able
to provide their children is not actually available to them.

00:30:39.270 --> 00:30:43.842
Privilege is very real and you know it
when you're on the rough end of it.

00:30:44.475 --> 00:30:46.211
Yeah.

00:30:47.045 --> 00:30:53.685
It reaches in every single direction,
into every single age, you could possibly imagine.

00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:02.627
Right now you stay.

00:31:03.428 --> 00:31:07.031
Don't make me fucking run around you with
30 pounds of g’damn gear on in the sun.

00:31:07.532 --> 00:31:09.000
Because you want to screw around out here.

00:31:13.037 --> 00:31:15.373
Get out of here. I already told you.

00:31:15.406 --> 00:31:17.876
You're leaving now!

00:31:18.109 --> 00:31:23.514
We want to consider ourselves living in
a modern time where systems of the past,

00:31:23.548 --> 00:31:27.852
like slavery and colonialism
and feudalism, no longer shape our world.

00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:32.523
We have a sense about how unfairness in the past functioned,

00:31:32.557 --> 00:31:35.393
and we celebrate that we are not that.

00:31:36.094 --> 00:31:41.332
Yet, in reality, we are post-colonial
societies, post-slavery societies,

00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.970
post feudal societies,
which means that there are elements

00:31:46.004 --> 00:31:48.706
of those old systems still playing out.

00:32:07.325 --> 00:32:10.995
I want my mama! I want my mama! Oh God.

00:32:11.296 --> 00:32:15.400
Some people are just structurally
in a disadvantaged position,

00:32:15.833 --> 00:32:18.836
and that means other
people are in an advantage position.

00:32:19.170 --> 00:32:23.641
If you're uncomfortable hearing that,
it means that you're not really prepared

00:32:23.675 --> 00:32:27.979
to see how our society structures
all sorts of things.

00:32:29.881 --> 00:32:33.351
Fairness and justice are distinct
concepts.

00:32:33.618 --> 00:32:37.155
The challenges
that all countries have to face

00:32:37.388 --> 00:32:38.823
It’s a global phenomenon

00:32:39.791 --> 00:32:49.801
For the United States, and I would be willing to wager
in most countries, some groups have less power in the political system,

00:32:49.801 --> 00:32:51.736
and in access to justice.

00:32:52.503 --> 00:32:54.739
For example, black women

00:32:54.772 --> 00:32:57.575
are least likely to have their cases

00:32:58.109 --> 00:33:01.179
believed by police officers, least likely

00:33:01.412 --> 00:33:05.583
to have their alleged rapists prosecuted,

00:33:05.783 --> 00:33:09.954
and least likely when they are prosecuted
to see them convicted.

00:33:10.188 --> 00:33:15.593
And when they do get convicted,
their sentences are far less

00:33:15.626 --> 00:33:21.299
than the sentences of other individuals
who've been prosecuted and convicted.

00:33:21.632 --> 00:33:25.003
So what this shines a light on

00:33:25.236 --> 00:33:27.872
is the fact
that while all women are vulnerable,

00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:33.745
the consequences, how they're treated,
whether they are believed,

00:33:33.778 --> 00:33:39.317
whether their cases go forward
largely tracks on to social hierarchy

00:33:40.985 --> 00:33:42.954
It's a two pronged problem.

00:33:42.987 --> 00:33:45.256
Things happen to them
because of who they are,

00:33:45.590 --> 00:33:48.860
and they can't seek accountability
because of who they are.

00:37:39.423 --> 00:37:43.661
If you want to look at the history
of injustice across millennia,

00:37:44.996 --> 00:37:47.365
you'll find it written in the tax codes

00:37:47.398 --> 00:37:50.768
and some of the earliest available literature.

00:37:52.103 --> 00:37:55.239
Rosetta Stone, for example,
are essentially tax codes

00:37:56.907 --> 00:37:59.043
because they do shape

00:38:00.344 --> 00:38:02.446
in the outcomes of

00:38:03.080 --> 00:38:04.749
social justice

00:38:05.116 --> 00:38:06.450
to an extraordinary degree.

00:38:11.255 --> 00:38:13.891
If we look at the way that multi national companies operate.

00:38:14.392 --> 00:38:15.926
Because they’re working in more than one country

00:38:15.926 --> 00:38:20.197
it throws up issues about how will
the wealth they create be distributed?

00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.501
And that was addressed
by the League of Nations.

00:38:23.534 --> 00:38:24.735
And at that time,

00:38:25.936 --> 00:38:27.138
that's in the 1920s.

00:38:27.138 --> 00:38:29.173
In the 1930s,

00:38:29.273 --> 00:38:33.377
the powerful and empire countries
Britain,

00:38:35.146 --> 00:38:36.247
France,

00:38:36.447 --> 00:38:39.250
Germany, they dominated the discussion

00:38:39.817 --> 00:38:43.154
and shaped rules
which suited their purposes.

00:38:43.487 --> 00:38:46.757
They were damned if they were going to get
taxing rights to the poorer countries.

00:38:47.091 --> 00:38:48.225
Their colonies.

00:38:51.228 --> 00:38:55.800
United States also was instrumental
in shaping rules which suit them.

00:38:56.867 --> 00:38:59.537
The rules allow them to pretend

00:39:00.104 --> 00:39:05.176
that their profits are derived
in some company, set up a Bermuda

00:39:05.242 --> 00:39:09.947
or Cayman Islands or Jersey or whatever, and
everyone knows that's a complete fiction.

00:39:09.980 --> 00:39:13.317
But the rules allow that to happen.

00:39:13.351 --> 00:39:15.186
It's been so corrupting.

00:39:15.219 --> 00:39:17.355
I think it's undermined democracy.

00:39:17.521 --> 00:39:19.256
It's undermine rule of law.

00:39:19.323 --> 00:39:22.760
It's given this clear sense
that there is one rule for the rich

00:39:24.195 --> 00:39:26.597
and quite another for the vast
majority of us.

00:39:26.630 --> 00:39:29.266
And I think that has also corrupted
our sense of fairness.

00:39:35.606 --> 00:39:37.842
What's the scale of this offshore economy?

00:39:38.743 --> 00:39:42.613
I commissioned some research into this
from a specialist research agency.

00:39:43.647 --> 00:39:47.218
Their estimates based on 2010 data is that

00:39:48.252 --> 00:39:56.293
somewhere between 21 trillion to 32 trillion USD
of private wealth sits offshore, untaxed.

00:39:57.361 --> 00:40:02.233
Now a trillion, to those of you whose
salaries don't go up to the trillions,

00:40:02.233 --> 00:40:03.734
a trillion is a million million.

00:40:04.435 --> 00:40:09.974
We're talking staggering amounts of wealth sitting
offshore, untaxed.

00:40:12.443 --> 00:40:15.780
One of the things that's really pissed me off, big time

00:40:16.380 --> 00:40:18.649
has been the way in which a corruption

00:40:19.650 --> 00:40:22.119
debate was shaped in the 1990s,

00:40:22.420 --> 00:40:25.489
in which we pointed fingers
at the South and said,

00:40:26.791 --> 00:40:28.959
It's your corruption

00:40:29.126 --> 00:40:31.495
that has led to underdevelopment

00:40:31.929 --> 00:40:34.598
and poverty and inequality, and so on.

00:40:36.367 --> 00:40:39.170
You can't blame them exclusively

00:40:39.437 --> 00:40:42.239
for not delivering on all sorts of human
rights violations

00:40:42.673 --> 00:40:46.043
when they don't have the money and
when they're being deprived of the money.

00:40:49.513 --> 00:40:53.284
If tax haven countries, like Britain
and Switzerland and Luxembourg,

00:40:53.617 --> 00:40:57.488
are actively helping the elites
and the powerful multinational companies

00:40:57.822 --> 00:41:00.724
to paying taxes in some of the poorest
countries in the world,

00:41:01.158 --> 00:41:05.930
are they not also complicit
in abusing the human rights of the poorest

00:41:05.930 --> 00:41:08.399
and most vulnerable people in the world?

00:41:14.205 --> 00:41:16.474
I've often been told by

00:41:17.374 --> 00:41:19.043
people who really should know better

00:41:19.310 --> 00:41:23.814
academics, senior practitioners, professionals,

00:41:23.814 --> 00:41:28.385
They say, well John, we know the system is unjust,
but you can't change the system.

00:41:29.487 --> 00:41:32.690
And just those three words,
you can't change the system.

00:41:32.690 --> 00:41:34.592
Actually, come to think of it, thats four words

00:41:34.592 --> 00:41:40.664
Anyway, just those words.
You can't change the system angers me so much.

00:41:41.432 --> 00:41:43.067
The system is man made.

00:41:43.067 --> 00:41:45.236
Of course you can
bloody well change the system.

00:41:45.903 --> 00:41:49.206
These are the documents
at the heart of the LuxLeaks scandal.

00:41:49.607 --> 00:41:53.744
28,000 confidential pages,
which lists more than 500

00:41:53.777 --> 00:41:58.382
tax agreements between multinationals
and the tax administration in Luxembourg.

00:41:58.949 --> 00:42:04.054
Giants like Apple, IKEA and Amazon
obtain so-called tax rulings

00:42:04.288 --> 00:42:07.591
which allow them to pay tax rates
as low as 1%.

00:42:08.192 --> 00:42:10.294
The three Frenchmen
who leaked the documents

00:42:10.327 --> 00:42:13.297
revealing the sweetheart
deals are now going on trial.

00:42:13.764 --> 00:42:18.969
The main suspect is Antoine Deltour,
a former employee of audit firm P.W.C

00:42:18.969 --> 00:42:21.906
If convicted, Deltour
and the two other men

00:42:22.106 --> 00:42:26.410
face up to ten years in prison
and a fine of more than €1 million.

00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.582
My decision to become a whistle blower.

00:42:31.649 --> 00:42:33.617
It didn't come one day.

00:42:34.018 --> 00:42:36.153
As an auditor, I was highly motivated.

00:42:36.186 --> 00:42:38.756
It was my first job and I was appreciated.

00:42:38.789 --> 00:42:40.958
I had been promoted just before resigning.

00:42:41.559 --> 00:42:42.626
I discovered that

00:42:42.660 --> 00:42:47.631
some companies were only holdings
with no real economic activity

00:42:48.566 --> 00:42:52.436
that were in Luxembourg
just to to shift profits

00:42:52.469 --> 00:42:56.807
from the countries
where the real activity, economic activity is

00:42:57.174 --> 00:43:00.945
to shift profits to Luxembourg
to avoid paying tax.

00:43:04.915 --> 00:43:07.885
Big multinationals
avoid tax while

00:43:08.652 --> 00:43:11.689
normal citizens and small business
have to pay

00:43:12.823 --> 00:43:16.627
a huge burden
and suffer from austerity measures.

00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:20.998
And it's because multinationals themselves

00:43:21.265 --> 00:43:24.535
use public services
like roads, like a skilled

00:43:25.135 --> 00:43:26.637
workforce, etc.

00:43:26.670 --> 00:43:28.606
So they need

00:43:28.872 --> 00:43:32.610
They should contribute
to these public services and they don't.

00:43:33.410 --> 00:43:34.645
So that's not fair.

00:43:36.981 --> 00:43:41.919
As a citizen who has a conscience
and you don't have much opportunities to

00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:43.320
to change things.

00:43:43.754 --> 00:43:46.624
There is something wrong
in these tax practices.

00:43:46.991 --> 00:43:50.761
And I knew that the opinion
and the politicians deserved

00:43:50.961 --> 00:43:51.862
to be informed about it.

00:43:52.062 --> 00:43:55.466
The case is embarrassing for the former
prime minister of Luxembourg

00:43:55.466 --> 00:43:56.533
Claude Juncker.

00:43:57.101 --> 00:44:02.072
He now heads the European Commission,
which says it wants to make tax issues a priority.

00:44:02.373 --> 00:44:05.576
Tax evasion cost Europe €1
trillion a year.

00:44:07.978 --> 00:44:11.982
I think about LuxLeaks consequences everyday

00:44:12.783 --> 00:44:15.219
especially just before the trial.

00:44:15.285 --> 00:44:18.889
I am always thinking about it

00:44:19.156 --> 00:44:23.193
and I'm afraid of what could happen.

00:44:26.063 --> 00:44:28.065
I, I face,

00:44:28.098 --> 00:44:33.704
I don't think I would go to jail, but maybe
I will have to pay 1 million, I don't know

00:44:34.038 --> 00:44:36.807
much more than what I can pay

00:44:38.008 --> 00:44:39.610
This is a threat.

00:44:57.294 --> 00:45:00.931
Inequality has become a very popular way
of capturing

00:45:01.131 --> 00:45:04.868
some of the dilemmas we're facing
in the development of our societies.

00:45:05.869 --> 00:45:07.905
We need to really unpack that concept

00:45:07.938 --> 00:45:10.708
because you could have a society
that's very equal in income terms,

00:45:10.974 --> 00:45:13.243
but it just happens to be that
everyone is poor.

00:45:13.310 --> 00:45:16.146
And that to me doesn't seem
like a very good or fair society.

00:45:21.618 --> 00:45:23.020
For me, fairness feels different.

00:45:23.253 --> 00:45:24.421
It feels like the right concept because

00:45:24.722 --> 00:45:27.024
it's asking about what's really happening

00:45:27.057 --> 00:45:29.126
to make sure that everyone is meeting the right standards.

00:45:37.534 --> 00:45:39.203
Costa Rica is a really interesting example.

00:45:39.203 --> 00:45:42.106
It has a level of social progress
better than Italy,

00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:44.108
a G7 country,

00:45:45.109 --> 00:45:47.177
but a much, much lower GDP.

00:45:47.211 --> 00:45:49.680
About a GDP,
less than half that of Italy's

00:45:52.149 --> 00:45:56.487
The Social Progress Index is really asking
the question What is a good society?

00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:58.889
And we defined it's the three terms.

00:46:01.592 --> 00:46:05.596
One is, does everyone, every citizen, have
the basic needs for survival met?

00:46:11.535 --> 00:46:15.372
Secondly does every citizen have those building
blocks  of a better life like education?

00:46:20.611 --> 00:46:25.449
And thirdly, is every citizen free
to pursue their hopes and dreams without impediments?

00:46:25.449 --> 00:46:28.452
And do they have rights
and freedom of choice? Those kinds of things?

00:46:30.721 --> 00:46:34.458
So that way it's actually a
very good measure of a fair, good society.

00:46:39.763 --> 00:46:44.301
We saw Costa Rica in the 19th century
introducing universal primary education,

00:46:44.768 --> 00:46:48.071
And then we see into the 20th century
a country that has prioritized

00:46:48.172 --> 00:46:50.774
the well-being of its citizens
in various ways,

00:46:52.843 --> 00:46:55.245
including abolishing having an army

00:46:55.579 --> 00:46:57.848
making a welfare state in the 1940s

00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.296
In Costa Rica, I know that we are like, we're very successful

00:47:13.030 --> 00:47:18.001
in transforming every dollar we produce in social benefits.

00:47:19.002 --> 00:47:22.372
I mean, if you have a good education access and health access,

00:47:22.406 --> 00:47:24.474
you can have a pretty decent life,

00:47:25.409 --> 00:47:28.412
even though you are not the richest man on the earth

00:47:33.083 --> 00:47:36.753
You have to feel like you live in a fair society

00:47:37.154 --> 00:47:39.456
in order to really work

00:47:40.290 --> 00:47:44.127
to improve yourself
and therefore improve the community.

00:47:45.095 --> 00:47:50.834
My cousins, they can have aspirations
to be professionals or whatever they want

00:47:50.901 --> 00:47:54.037
and they are able to really envision
their future.

00:47:54.204 --> 00:47:58.775
And I think that's a different thing
in this country because I know

00:47:59.142 --> 00:48:03.046
it's not as common as one may think.

00:48:38.348 --> 00:48:41.084
So social progress in Costa
Rica has been really laid down

00:48:41.485 --> 00:48:43.754
over time by lots of investments.

00:48:44.254 --> 00:48:46.156
Social progress isn't built overnight.

00:48:46.189 --> 00:48:48.358
It's about a consistent effort over time.

00:49:04.441 --> 00:49:07.544
Governments ultimately are the ones
who are at the top of the pyramid.

00:49:07.577 --> 00:49:09.513
They control the law.

00:49:09.546 --> 00:49:12.516
As Max Weber said, they have the monopoly
on violence in the society.

00:49:12.749 --> 00:49:15.652
So there's a there's a point whereby
the buck does stop with government.

00:49:39.943 --> 00:49:42.079
Iceland’s Prime Minister resigned Tuesday,

00:49:42.112 --> 00:49:46.516
becoming the first major
casualty of the Panama Papers revelations.

00:49:46.883 --> 00:49:51.755
Leaked documents reveal
that when Gunnlaugsson owned an offshore company

00:49:51.788 --> 00:49:54.591
with his wife, which he failed to declare
when he entered parliament.

00:49:55.158 --> 00:49:58.195
A massive demonstration ensued what some locals called

00:49:58.195 --> 00:50:01.598
the largest public demonstration in Iceland's history.

00:50:02.232 --> 00:50:04.935
The Pirate Party was seeing
a surge of support

00:50:05.268 --> 00:50:07.704
following the publication
of the Panama Papers.

00:50:07.871 --> 00:50:11.141
One poll has the Pirate Party at 43%.

00:50:13.043 --> 00:50:15.779
Actually, we have gone from, yeah,

00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.716
5% to 43% and then down a little bit again.

00:50:23.020 --> 00:50:25.622
The newest polls showed 31.8%.

00:50:25.655 --> 00:50:28.458
And so it's kind of
everyone are optimistic again.

00:50:28.725 --> 00:50:31.561
People have different views of honesty and truth.

00:50:32.896 --> 00:50:37.100
But we are trying to

00:50:37.167 --> 00:50:39.536
create a participatory democracy.

00:50:40.404 --> 00:50:47.711
So we have to be honest in valuing our feelings
and opinions and straightforward in that.

00:50:48.045 --> 00:50:54.684
After the 2008 financial collapse,
people had been kind of led to believe

00:50:54.718 --> 00:50:57.721
that they were going to fix things
and everything's going to get better.

00:50:57.754 --> 00:50:59.623
And we all had to kind of work together.

00:50:59.656 --> 00:51:02.993
People had to have lesser pay
and but we were society.

00:51:03.026 --> 00:51:05.028
We're going to build this up together.

00:51:05.062 --> 00:51:09.566
And when the Panama thing came out,
you know, it was just a deal breaker

00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:11.701
and people were appalled.

00:51:19.676 --> 00:51:23.580
There was just an amazing energy
and unison, kind of feeling of unison

00:51:24.781 --> 00:51:25.782
That day.

00:51:25.816 --> 00:51:28.919
Like, we've had enough,
we've had enough of these liars.

00:51:41.398 --> 00:51:45.102
In terms of financial misconduct, which
we think a lot about in Iceland.

00:51:45.936 --> 00:51:49.072
Many of us believe it's
sort of like an addictive behavior.

00:51:49.473 --> 00:51:55.745
People hope to reach a type of success
as they have defined it.

00:51:55.779 --> 00:51:57.781
Maybe they come
from a very wealthy family.

00:51:57.781 --> 00:52:01.885
Maybe dad made 5 billion
and the son has to make 5 billion.

00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:04.721
Maybe it's something

00:52:05.422 --> 00:52:08.625
crucially connected
to someone's self image.

00:52:10.427 --> 00:52:16.166
But then, at the same time, for change to work,
we want to be able to look on it

00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:18.602
in a benevolent way.

00:52:18.602 --> 00:52:22.639
And look at it like a failure, like an addiction of sort.

00:52:22.672 --> 00:52:25.308
Like like alcoholism.

00:52:25.342 --> 00:52:27.878
When people are greedy,

00:52:27.911 --> 00:52:32.215
when people betray their obligations,
it's a type of a sickness.

00:52:33.483 --> 00:52:37.187
And then we cannot up an individual in isolation.

00:52:37.220 --> 00:52:39.723
We have to think about how is our system functioning.

00:52:40.157 --> 00:52:43.260
People can see that,
you know, we're as honest

00:52:43.326 --> 00:52:46.563
as we possibly can about things,
try to keep things open.

00:52:47.063 --> 00:52:50.033
And that's
I think, a key to fairness is just that,

00:52:50.834 --> 00:52:55.739
that people can access information
and that kind of belongs to them anyway.

00:52:56.206 --> 00:53:00.877
It's sometimes difficult for ourselves,
but we know that we cannot give a class on ethics.

00:53:01.344 --> 00:53:05.415
We have to behave as we find is ethical
because the children learn

00:53:06.716 --> 00:53:10.086
by what you exhibit and not by what you tell them.

00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:26.937
Kids don't really have a say in
what's fair, what's not.

00:53:26.970 --> 00:53:30.774
It's always the adults that tell you what to do.

00:53:31.541 --> 00:53:34.377
Like your mom will
say, Eat your vegetables.

00:53:35.412 --> 00:53:37.681
And I might not think that's fair,

00:53:37.714 --> 00:53:39.816
but I do it because she's my mom.

00:53:41.251 --> 00:53:42.352
And then

00:53:43.353 --> 00:53:45.388
when we don't have a say,

00:53:45.455 --> 00:53:47.724
then the adults can do what they want

00:53:48.925 --> 00:53:51.561
and we can't do anything to stop them.

00:53:58.835 --> 00:54:01.238
When she got involved with this group,
she was nine

00:54:01.738 --> 00:54:05.308
and the realities of the case
are hitting closer to home.

00:54:05.308 --> 00:54:07.210
So as a mom, it was..

00:54:07.577 --> 00:54:12.949
A little tender part of me wanted to protect her
and not have her be involved in this lawsuit.

00:54:13.917 --> 00:54:19.022
So all 21 plaintiffs go and we're in line and we're waiting.

00:54:19.623 --> 00:54:21.825
And that takes like a long while.

00:54:22.225 --> 00:54:24.861
And then we have to spend 2 hours
in this court

00:54:25.395 --> 00:54:29.633
listening, to old people, talk
about what they think is right and wrong.

00:54:30.900 --> 00:54:35.472
I'm of two minds. I mean, on one hand,
I'm so proud of my daughter for getting involved.

00:54:35.872 --> 00:54:40.644
And I'm proud that she knows she
has a voice and that she speaks up.

00:54:40.744 --> 00:54:43.713
Well,  there's a cup and two plates. From last spring?

00:54:43.780 --> 00:54:45.749
Yeah, You can just hand them to me.

00:54:47.484 --> 00:54:51.955
We’re asking the government to take
responsibility for their actions

00:54:51.988 --> 00:54:57.093
and to make sure that we have a planet
and an environment

00:54:57.594 --> 00:55:02.866
that will last until the next generation
and the generation after that.

00:55:04.267 --> 00:55:06.736
Hi Julia, good to see you.

00:55:07.437 --> 00:55:09.506
thanks for having me over

00:55:09.706 --> 00:55:13.710
We launched legal actions in all 50 states

00:55:13.743 --> 00:55:16.479
in the United States
and against the federal government.

00:55:16.913 --> 00:55:19.783
And then it has expanded
globally since then.

00:55:20.617 --> 00:55:23.453
And so there are actions now happening
in other countries, like there's a case

00:55:23.853 --> 00:55:26.956
to be filed next week
in Pakistan on behalf of young people

00:55:27.824 --> 00:55:29.292
and soon after India.

00:55:29.359 --> 00:55:35.031
I think the court understands how important the case is
and he tends to issue decisions pretty  quickly.

00:55:35.332 --> 00:55:40.537
Children are filing cases against their government
using the Public Trust Doctrine.

00:55:41.204 --> 00:55:43.907
The Public Trust Doctrine is an ancient legal doctrine.

00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:47.177
It comes from Roman times,
and it's pretty simple.

00:55:47.210 --> 00:55:52.782
It says the government is a trustee over
essential natural resources.

00:55:53.016 --> 00:55:55.985
So the things that are vital to life, air
and water for example,

00:55:56.486 --> 00:56:01.257
and the citizens, including future
generations, are the beneficiaries.

00:56:01.958 --> 00:56:07.564
And actually it's people like you, Hazel,
and young people who inspire me to keep that hope...

00:56:07.764 --> 00:56:09.866
I'm incredibly hopeful.

00:56:10.066 --> 00:56:13.069
The youth in Washington
state have already won

00:56:13.203 --> 00:56:16.639
one case against Washington
using the Public Trust Doctrine.

00:56:16.940 --> 00:56:17.941
And so we have precedent.

00:56:25.148 --> 00:56:29.052
There’s fundamental questions of fairness
because of what we're leaving

00:56:29.085 --> 00:56:32.389
to all future generations
if we don't reverse course.

00:56:41.931 --> 00:56:44.300
There's a butterfly on the ground.