WEBVTT

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(speaking in foreign language)

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(fire blazing)

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On April 12th, 1961

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the Russian Yuri Gagarin
makes the first manned voyage

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into space.

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In Jerusalem where
the trial of Nazi criminal

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Adolf Eichmann had started
the previous day,

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journalists have, for a moment,

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turned their eyes
away from the courthouse

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towards the sky where
the cosmonauts escapade

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appears more conceivable
than the terrestrial turmoil

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of the grimacing man
in his glass cage.

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♪

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Adolf, the son of
Adolf Klaus Eichmann,

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is accused hereby:

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First count.

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Nature of offense:

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Crime against the Jewish people,

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an offense under section
1(a)(1) of the Nazis

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and Nazi Collaborators
Punishment Law 5710...

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Particulars of the offense:

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The accused together
with others...

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In the room where
Eichmann\"s trial took place,

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no ghost wanders.

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It is here,
according to Israeli law

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against Nazis
and Nazi collaborators

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that Adolf Eichmann
was condemned to death

00:01:24.520 --> 00:01:26.399
on December 15th, 1961

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for crimes against
the Jewish people,

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and crimes against humanity.

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Ten-hut!

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(papers wrestling)

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(crickets chirring)

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The court of appeals
confirms the sentence

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on May 29th, 1962.

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Although there is
national consensus,

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some discordant voices
can be heard.

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(typewriter pings)

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On May 30th a group
of intellectuals,

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some of whom are survivors
of the Holocaust,

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sends a petition to
the president Yitzhak Ben-Zvi.

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♪

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\"We\" re not pleading
for his life.

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No man is less worthy
of mercy than he.

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We do not come to you
requesting to pardon him.

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We are asking for you
to commute the sentence

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on behalf of our country
and our people.

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It is our considered opinion

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that the execution of Eichmann

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will demean the stature
of the Holocaust

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and distort the historic
and moral significance

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of this trial.

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Let us not lend
our hand to this,

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and let us not risk
creating the impression

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that sending this
evil man to the gallows

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could compensate
for extermination

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of six million.\"

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This is the punishment
you give to those murderers?

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You caught one of them...

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30 years after.

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I mean, isn\"t that
a little bit too late

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and too little?

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Um, it\"s a kind of a mockery

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of the whole idea
of retribution.

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And it doesn\"t also
serve as a symbolic

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feature of it.

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It\"s not a symbol, right?

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It doesn\"t stand
for the rest of them,

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because there is no
symbolic relationship here

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being established.

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♪

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Twenty-third...

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It all started on
May 23rd, 1960.

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On that day the painter,
Yehuda Bakon,

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wrote about Eichmann\"s
arrest in his diary.

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Shall I translate it?

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In this... I was teaching
in the academy.

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And I write all kinds of things,

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whom I met and so on,

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and then I wrote
they caught Eichmann.

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(speaking Hebrew)

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\"Announce it in the radio.\"

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Then I describe
what I have done in the day.

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And later on what...

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Then I write I didn\"t
have any feeling of, um...

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(speaking Hebrew)

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What did you say?

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(speaking Hebrew)

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- Jealous?
- Of jealousy, of any...

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- Or revenge.
- Or revenge.

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Nothing.

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Actually I had more...

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And I write the Hebrew word...

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(speaking Hebrew)

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Compassion.

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Uh, in this minute
I forgot everything

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and I actually
went into his skin,

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I tried to feel it how he felt.

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Maybe he changed
in these 15 years

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that he was like a mouse,

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always persecuted.

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Maybe he got, um,

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a kind of conscious.

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And then that we
lived long enough

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that we came to him, um,
judge and state.

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It\"s very strange, all of it.

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♪

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In 1960 the State of Israel

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celebrates its 12th anniversary.

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Yitzhak Ben-Zvi,
the third president,

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although a silent actor
with minimal power,

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is the one who designates
judges to the supreme court

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and also grants pardons
to those convicted.

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♪

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On May 23rd, 1960
it is the prime minister,

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David Ben-Gurion,
who announces Eichmann\"s capture

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in the Knesset.

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♪

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(speaking Hebrew)

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♪

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The news announced on the radio

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unleashes a wave
of emotion in Israel.

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Conflicting feelings of anxiety,

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revenge, and doubt are expressed

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among the population.

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(speaking French)

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(speaking French)

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Ben-Gurion wanted
the trial to teach

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the Israeli population

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the story of the Holocaust,

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because we have to remember,

00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:12.678
even though that
most of the population

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in this country

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when it gained independence
in 1948

00:08:18.400 --> 00:08:20.479
was Ashkenazi Jews.

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The population in the late \"50s,

00:08:23.679 --> 00:08:25.639
the beginning of the \"60s,

00:08:25.640 --> 00:08:30.239
was much less familiar
with the story of the Holocaust

00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:34.239
because the big immigration
brought here

00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:37.319
a majority of Mizrahi Jews

00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.719
from Middle Eastern countries,

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and also a young generation
came into being

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which did not know
much about the Holocaust.

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Because we have to remember

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both the survivors
and the people

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that lost their families
in Europe,

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but they were not...
They themselves were,

00:09:03.680 --> 00:09:07.679
during the war in Palestine,

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nobody talked about it.

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You had as well
in the background

00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.359
this huge debate about

00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.399
payments done by
the German government to Israel,

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and the right and the left
attacking Ben-Gurion

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for accepting it
as a cheap compromise,

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as a very bad form of atonement.

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So you have...
You have silence

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and you have reparations.

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And Eichmann\"s trial
is not a founding moment

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for the State,

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but it\"s the founding
moment in the relationship

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of the State to the Jewish past,

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where the Holocaust...
And especially the victims...

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Gained a voice in a very
unexpected way, actually,

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through the trial.

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The one thing about
Ben-Gurion,

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he was so cold
about where to invest

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the resources of the State,

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and he wasn\"t interested
in kind of backward-looking

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revenge activities.

00:10:32.160 --> 00:10:35.839
(announcer speaking Hebrew)

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In order to save Israel
from bankruptcy,

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Ben-Gurion had signed
the Reparations Agreement

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with West Germany in 1952.

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This agreement provoked
violent debates

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within the government
and across the entire country.

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(continues speaking Hebrew)

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But, you know, the relation

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between the trial
and the reparations

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is intriguing and interesting.

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Can you...

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I think... I think it was...

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it was here, now we can
deal with them

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from position of power, right?

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It\"s the first time
that we are not claiming

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to be victims only,

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that here is Jewish self
determination and sovereignty.

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We deal with the criminals
from a position of power.

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Isn\"t it all what we are about

00:11:23.880 --> 00:11:28.360
as a newly emerging
state and people?

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Israel was considered
a new page in Jewish history,

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and the idea of Jews
putting on trial

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a major perpetrator
of atrocities against Jews

00:11:50.040 --> 00:11:53.679
was considered
in line with the feeling

00:11:53.680 --> 00:11:56.719
of pride and independence

00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:02.919
that the State rose
among the people.

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Is that what they call
the \"new Jew\"?

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Yes, exactly.

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This was part of the idea
of the \"new Jew.\"

00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:13.839
The \"new Jew\" would not
agree to being

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deprived of its rights,

00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.439
to being humiliated,

00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:23.599
and he would avenge
all atrocities

00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.000
made against him or his people.

00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:37.319
Carefully organized
and conceived

00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:38.678
by Ben-Gurion\"s government,

00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:40.839
the trial will take place
in Jerusalem

00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:42.239
at the Beit Ha\"Am,

00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:43.000
the House of the People,

00:12:43.001 --> 00:12:46.999
which was constructed in 1960.

00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:51.239
♪

00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.079
Israel, where 300,000
survivors of the Holocaust live,

00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.919
enjoys for the first time
a period of peace

00:12:57.920 --> 00:12:58.680
and can deal with the judging

00:12:58.681 --> 00:13:01.799
of one of those responsible
for the extermination

00:13:01.800 --> 00:13:03.678
of six million Jews.

00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:05.279
♪

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From retrospective,
it was the most quiet years

00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.439
in the history of Israel.

00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:12.999
No great wars.

00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.678
A kind of stability.

00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:17.879
A kind of state
that does not yet know

00:13:17.880 --> 00:13:18.959
what it is because they don\"t...

00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.439
They didn\"t even consider
the immigrants who came,

00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.439
needless to say
that nobody considered

00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:27.719
at that period the question
of the Palestinians.

00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.678
It was seen as this is it
and this is closed.

00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.678
Of course, nobody used
to talk about

00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:36.799
the traumas of the Holocaust.

00:13:36.800 --> 00:13:38.959
I mean, it was a place
of silence,

00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.678
a lot of silence on all aspects.

00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:43.678
You can say that
most aspects of suppression

00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.359
for this period
remain until today.

00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.159
And suddenly the trial came
and raised many,

00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:53.520
many of these issues.

00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:00.159
On April 11th, 1961
a crowd gathers

00:14:00.160 --> 00:14:01.678
in front of the courthouse.

00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:03.439
The opening of the trial
is followed

00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:04.559
across the country,

00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:06.999
broadcast by the Israeli
radio station

00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:08.319
Kol Yisrael.

00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:11.200
(muffled announcer
speaking Hebrew)

00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:14.799
Journalists and writers had come

00:14:14.800 --> 00:14:16.239
from all over the world to see,

00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.519
as New Yorker\"s correspondent
Hanna Arendt said,

00:14:19.520 --> 00:14:22.079
\"the criminal in flesh
and blood.\"

00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.679
(courthouse chatter)

00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.199
For the common people,

00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:49.279
most of the population,
this was a given.

00:14:49.280 --> 00:14:53.479
\"Thank God that we have
here an opportunity

00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:55.479
to put Eichmann to trial,

00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:00.559
symbolically putting
all the Nazis to trial

00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:01.200
in Israel.\"

00:15:01.201 --> 00:15:04.839
And it was thought,
just like Ben-Gurion thought,

00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.679
that this was an historical,

00:15:08.680 --> 00:15:12.599
I would say, justice.

00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:14.839
Not so with the intellectuals.

00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:16.679
Was conceived
by (unintelligible)

00:15:16.680 --> 00:15:19.678
as a citadel of
the Jewish spirit.

00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:20.000
Today...

00:15:20.001 --> 00:15:22.879
The discussions in Israel
surrounding the Eichmann trial

00:15:22.880 --> 00:15:23.800
and the ensuing death sentence

00:15:23.801 --> 00:15:27.119
are initiated by the attorney
general Haim Cohen,

00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:28.199
but mainly by the founders

00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.799
of the Hebrew University
of Jerusalem.

00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:33.039
Here are professors
Bergmann and philosopher...

00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:34.839
Among them was a group
of philosophers,

00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:37.159
a few known
throughout the world.

00:15:37.160 --> 00:15:38.599
And here is Martin Buber,

00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.239
who holds the chair
of social philosophy.

00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:44.119
One of the most
distinguished Jewish thinkers

00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:46.319
and scholars of our time.

00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:47.959
♪

00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:49.919
You cannot say a \"group\"
because each of them

00:15:49.920 --> 00:15:52.678
had a different attitude.

00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:56.279
But you talk about Martin Buber,

00:15:56.280 --> 00:15:58.678
you talk about Hugo Bergmann,

00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:00.479
you talk about Gershom Scholem

00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:01.440
in a different way,

00:16:01.441 --> 00:16:03.039
and you talk about
Hannah Arendt.

00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:04.678
You can talk about many others.

00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:05.919
There were many other opinions,

00:16:05.920 --> 00:16:08.439
but I think these are the main

00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:09.879
intellectuals of the period.

00:16:09.880 --> 00:16:14.079
German Jews...
I mean, from the German milieu,

00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.039
either Prague like Bergmann,

00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:19.159
or Germans like Scholem
and Arendt...

00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:22.639
And interestingly, all of them

00:16:22.640 --> 00:16:27.879
in one stage or another
supported, as Zionists,

00:16:27.880 --> 00:16:30.199
a binational solution.

00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:31.678
♪

00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:34.359
From 1925 through the mid \"30s,

00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:35.759
Hugo Bergmann, Martin Buber,

00:16:35.760 --> 00:16:38.319
and Gershom Scholem
were members of a minority

00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.678
Zionist movement,
The Brit Shalom.

00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:43.159
♪

00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:45.599
This political group
advocates the establishment

00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.678
of a Jewish homeland
in Palestine,

00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:50.159
which ensures to both peoples,
Jews and Arabs,

00:16:50.160 --> 00:16:51.678
equal rights
and self-management

00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.678
of their respective
internal affairs.

00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:57.678
♪

00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:03.279
These people arrived in Israel,
in Palestine actually,

00:17:03.280 --> 00:17:05.678
in the early \"20s

00:17:05.679 --> 00:17:10.999
out of Zionism that interpreted

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:14.439
the Jewish entity in Palestine

00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.678
as something less than a state

00:17:17.679 --> 00:17:19.559
and more than a state.

00:17:19.560 --> 00:17:23.199
For them, Zionism
was supposed to be

00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:28.678
an exulted religious
moral experience.

00:17:28.679 --> 00:17:33.079
It was not enough for them,
a state,

00:17:33.080 --> 00:17:35.079
it had to be...

00:17:35.080 --> 00:17:36.719
They used to say,

00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.678
\"We don\" t need another state
like Albania,

00:17:40.679 --> 00:17:45.159
we need... if at all,
we need something special,

00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:50.678
something exulted,
something with a moral fiber

00:17:50.679 --> 00:17:54.159
that would put to shame
all the world.\"

00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:58.559
And here we had Israel,
a small state,

00:17:58.560 --> 00:18:01.199
a weak state.

00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.599
Not better than other states,

00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:04.679
not worse.

00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:10.678
For them, this was
a disappointment.

00:18:10.679 --> 00:18:12.479
♪

00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:14.959
\"We must not ignore that most
of these Zionist leaders

00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.839
are unbridled nationalists
according to the European model;

00:18:18.840 --> 00:18:21.119
imperialists and opportunists.

00:18:21.120 --> 00:18:25.079
They talk of Renaissance,
but think business.

00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:27.319
If we fail to oppose them

00:18:27.320 --> 00:18:28.678
with a force of authority,

00:18:28.679 --> 00:18:32.519
the soul of the movement
will be perverted.\"

00:18:32.520 --> 00:18:34.879
♪

00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.559
For them who came from Germany,

00:18:37.560 --> 00:18:40.559
Zionism was...
Their understanding of Zionism,

00:18:40.560 --> 00:18:41.678
their perception of Zionism

00:18:41.679 --> 00:18:44.359
was very different
from the one represented

00:18:44.360 --> 00:18:46.519
by Ben-Gurion and others.

00:18:46.520 --> 00:18:48.479
For them, Zionism was first

00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.799
a return of the Jews
to themselves

00:18:51.800 --> 00:18:54.678
as a reaction to assimilation,

00:18:54.679 --> 00:18:56.599
they all objected

00:18:56.600 --> 00:18:59.239
German liberal Jewish culture

00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.999
and thought that it means
to ignore

00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.399
the main aspect of Zionism.

00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:08.599
And also as, indeed,
as an understanding,

00:19:08.600 --> 00:19:10.678
as a reaction
to anti-Semitism

00:19:10.679 --> 00:19:14.039
that means that
the Jewish community

00:19:14.040 --> 00:19:19.400
should take values opposite
to an anti-Semitist.

00:19:19.679 --> 00:19:22.080
(speaking Hebrew)

00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:50.559
In one way or another,

00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:51.678
you can say that
they were serious,

00:19:51.679 --> 00:19:53.439
you can say that
they were not serious,

00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.759
what is interesting
is to try to understand

00:19:55.760 --> 00:19:57.678
what was Zionism for them.

00:19:57.679 --> 00:20:01.399
And it was an alternative
perception of Zionism.

00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.678
You read Scholem
of the late \"20s

00:20:04.679 --> 00:20:05.679
and the early \"30s,

00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.678
you read the best
anti-Colonial literature.

00:20:09.679 --> 00:20:13.079
You read them,
you can understand how

00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:18.559
in contrast to
the East European Zionism,

00:20:18.560 --> 00:20:20.439
perception of negation of exile

00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.678
according to which
the new culture

00:20:22.679 --> 00:20:25.119
should be based on
the total denial

00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.159
of previous Jewish cultures,

00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:27.679
total denial...

00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.359
That\"s the idea
of negation of exile

00:20:29.360 --> 00:20:30.879
of the idea of the new Jew.

00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.919
They didn\"t share
this idea of the new Jew.

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.840
They... on the contrary.

00:20:34.841 --> 00:20:38.678
They believed that they have
to return to Jewish tradition

00:20:38.679 --> 00:20:40.639
while believing
the Jewish position

00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:44.439
has a unique political content,

00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:46.678
which is crucial
for a counter...

00:20:46.679 --> 00:20:51.880
A counter-Colonial and counter
anti-Semite thinking.

00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.759
And their arguments were
that the Zionist leadership

00:20:56.760 --> 00:21:00.678
take direction that follows
the same logic

00:21:00.679 --> 00:21:02.599
that drove Europe
to anti-Semitism.

00:21:02.600 --> 00:21:07.199
That\"s why Scholem supported
the binational solution

00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:08.239
or agenda,

00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:12.759
although Scholem himself
changed his attitude in 1933

00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:16.919
after the rise of
the Nazist power in Europe.

00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:18.759
But people like Buber and Arendt

00:21:18.760 --> 00:21:21.799
continued in this direction
also in the \"40s

00:21:21.800 --> 00:21:25.159
and concerning Buber
also later in the \"50s.

00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:28.399
For them, the question
of the Palestinians

00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.679
was an integral part
of their Zionism.

00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.159
They were not
anti-Zionist at all.

00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.678
But they were against
this logic,

00:21:35.679 --> 00:21:36.600
against this logic.

00:21:36.601 --> 00:21:39.678
For them,
Jewish nationalism was...

00:21:39.679 --> 00:21:44.159
Was supposed to bring
a different way of thinking

00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:45.439
than the European one.

00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.678
And Arendt was the most,
let\"s say,

00:21:48.679 --> 00:21:51.679
the most sophisticated
one about it.

00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.240
(speaking Hebrew)

00:22:26.600 --> 00:22:29.199
She sympathized with the idea

00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:30.799
of Jewish settlement
in Palestine.

00:22:30.800 --> 00:22:34.799
She believed that a Jew...
That this Jewish community

00:22:34.800 --> 00:22:37.919
that was established
at that time in Palestine,

00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:42.279
can indeed propose
not only solution for Jews,

00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:45.599
but also a new political vision.

00:22:45.600 --> 00:22:50.999
But then during the \"40s
she condemned the idea,

00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.678
the Zionist move toward the idea

00:22:54.679 --> 00:22:59.119
that Jewish state
is the main aspect of Zionism

00:22:59.120 --> 00:23:00.879
and the main purpose of Zionism.

00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:02.399
She was against
the Jewish state.

00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.678
She was against...
She thought it\"s dangerous

00:23:06.679 --> 00:23:08.559
and it is meaningless.

00:23:08.560 --> 00:23:10.920
(speaking French)

00:23:17.679 --> 00:23:21.320
I think it has
changed everything.

00:23:26.320 --> 00:23:28.880
(French speaking translator)

00:24:10.679 --> 00:24:13.959
On the other hand,
she did not participate

00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:15.439
in the...

00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:20.359
in the Hebrew-Jewish community
in here, in Palestine.

00:24:20.360 --> 00:24:21.240
As they did.

00:24:21.241 --> 00:24:24.119
And they were here,
yes, they were here.

00:24:24.120 --> 00:24:25.519
They really, they were here.

00:24:25.520 --> 00:24:29.000
They took the responsibility
of being here.

00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:32.678
Would you say that
the opposition

00:24:32.679 --> 00:24:37.839
against the execution
of Eichmann as a link

00:24:37.840 --> 00:24:41.678
with this political line
they were defending?

00:24:41.679 --> 00:24:43.678
Yes, but not always direct one.

00:24:43.679 --> 00:24:47.519
The link is first of all
how you perceive Israel.

00:24:47.520 --> 00:24:51.519
Do you think that Israel
is the only, uh,

00:24:51.520 --> 00:24:55.678
authority to...

00:24:55.679 --> 00:24:58.678
to judge Nazi criminals?

00:24:58.679 --> 00:25:01.119
Do you think that Israel
is indeed the one

00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:06.999
who inherit... who inherit
all the responsibility

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.759
and the rights of the victims?

00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:13.399
Do you think that this
is the... the idea of Israel?

00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:16.719
And on the other hand
came some general questions.

00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:18.439
What does it mean?

00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:19.999
Which kind of trial is it?

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:23.678
What does it mean
to try to arrange a trial

00:25:23.679 --> 00:25:26.679
for one criminal?

00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:33.479
(speaking Hebrew)

00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.679
Will you please ask
the accused to rise.

00:25:41.679 --> 00:25:45.600
The accused may remove
his earphones.

00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:55.559
You heard the indictment
on the first day of the trial?

00:25:55.560 --> 00:25:58.160
(German translator speaking)

00:26:01.679 --> 00:26:03.480
Yes.

00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.678
Do you admit

00:26:08.679 --> 00:26:13.600
the first count
brought against you?

00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.359
In the spirit of the indictment,

00:26:23.360 --> 00:26:26.440
I am not guilty.

00:26:28.760 --> 00:26:32.639
There was a question,
\"Is it a trial?\"

00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.919
Um, how could the victim
trial the criminal?

00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.359
You need a neutral body.

00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:39.678
So, it\"s not a trial.

00:26:39.679 --> 00:26:42.759
Second, it\"s a political
theater, right?

00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:44.959
It\"s really, again, not a trial.

00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:47.359
It\"s a staged trial.

00:26:47.360 --> 00:26:51.279
Third, who\"s the State
of Israel to represent

00:26:51.280 --> 00:26:52.759
the victims?

00:26:52.760 --> 00:26:54.678
Does it speak for the victim?

00:26:54.679 --> 00:26:56.799
Does it co-opt the victims?

00:26:56.800 --> 00:26:58.679
Now, by the way,
all those issues

00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.479
have become, after the trial,

00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.759
become very marginal
because actually the trial

00:27:02.760 --> 00:27:06.559
was more of a trial than
everybody expected it to be.

00:27:06.560 --> 00:27:09.319
The judges behaved like judges.

00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:10.080
(speaking in Hebrew)

00:27:10.081 --> 00:27:14.519
In this preamble
to the decision...

00:27:14.520 --> 00:27:16.839
there is a condition,
a reservation.

00:27:16.840 --> 00:27:20.678
It says that the accused
be brought before

00:27:20.679 --> 00:27:23.999
a suitable court,
an appropriate court.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:27.559
This does not mean, necessarily,

00:27:27.560 --> 00:27:29.279
the Israeli court.

00:27:29.280 --> 00:27:32.519
And excludes the court
in Israel.

00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:34.599
Be brought
to appropriate justice.

00:27:34.600 --> 00:27:38.559
It says, \"Shall be brought
to appropriate justice,

00:27:38.560 --> 00:27:39.959
not court.\"

00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:40.840
Why Israel?

00:27:40.841 --> 00:27:42.678
What is the role of Israel here?

00:27:42.679 --> 00:27:46.079
Okay, you can accept
Israel as a shelter

00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:46.720
for the Jews,

00:27:46.721 --> 00:27:49.519
you can understand
the need and the support

00:27:49.520 --> 00:27:51.719
of many people
in the State of Israel

00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:52.759
because it is a shelter,

00:27:52.760 --> 00:27:55.679
but there is a difference
between the idea of a shelter

00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.319
and between the idea that Israel

00:27:58.320 --> 00:28:01.959
is the ultimate and abs...

00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:05.639
And absolute, uh, representative

00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:07.759
of the Jewish people
and the victims.

00:28:07.760 --> 00:28:09.559
Because of the perception
of Israel,

00:28:09.560 --> 00:28:12.999
what makes... what happens
to Israel through that?

00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:14.479
And, indeed, you can see

00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.439
that one aspect of the trial was

00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:23.039
the way the dramatic
memory became

00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:25.719
the core of Israel
self-understanding,

00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.879
and instead of being...

00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.039
It\"s growing more and more.

00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:32.799
Since this trial you can say

00:28:32.800 --> 00:28:34.119
that it grows more and more,

00:28:34.120 --> 00:28:38.678
and it brings the idea
of a catastrophe

00:28:38.679 --> 00:28:42.239
into the life
of Israel of the period.

00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:42.800
That\"s a paradox.

00:28:42.801 --> 00:28:46.599
That was not intended
by Ben-Gurion, I\"m sure.

00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:48.678
I think Ben-Gurion
did not want

00:28:48.679 --> 00:28:51.559
to have this trial and let...

00:28:51.560 --> 00:28:53.519
And very contrary
to what people are saying

00:28:53.520 --> 00:28:56.678
that he had an agenda
of bringing this Shoah

00:28:56.679 --> 00:29:00.959
in order to develop
the nuclear weapons

00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:02.279
and stuff like that.

00:29:02.280 --> 00:29:06.359
Um, Ben-Gurion did not
want that trial.

00:29:06.360 --> 00:29:10.599
He was very much in harmony

00:29:10.600 --> 00:29:13.559
with Heim Cohen on this.

00:29:13.560 --> 00:29:15.799
And he really...
He gave Heim Cohen

00:29:15.800 --> 00:29:18.599
an open hand to try and find out

00:29:18.600 --> 00:29:22.759
whether the Germans
would like to have him.

00:29:22.760 --> 00:29:24.919
Of course, the Germans
did not want to have him

00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:26.678
because the Germans
were reluctant

00:29:26.679 --> 00:29:30.120
to conduct trials whatsoever.

00:29:39.360 --> 00:29:41.719
I think that when you think
about it from retrospect,

00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.678
even we have the privilege
of looking at this

00:29:45.679 --> 00:29:47.678
from a historical perspective,

00:29:47.679 --> 00:29:51.719
you can understand first
why people objected.

00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.919
The verdict of Eichmann?

00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.679
What does it mean to kill him?

00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:59.679
I mean...

00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:01.279
Today? Who cares! Yes?

00:30:01.280 --> 00:30:02.919
Today, it is meaningless.

00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:07.319
I mean, you can\"t
be against the...

00:30:07.320 --> 00:30:10.559
The assassination
of Eichmann today.

00:30:10.560 --> 00:30:12.559
It\"s simply ridiculous, why not?

00:30:12.560 --> 00:30:14.639
I mean, I mean, who cares?

00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.678
But yet, the question is
what does it mean about

00:30:18.679 --> 00:30:20.039
your understanding of Nazism.

00:30:20.040 --> 00:30:26.679
Which kind of a ritual
in which you kill some...

00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:29.359
criminals,

00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:35.039
but by that as if
close the question.

00:30:35.040 --> 00:30:38.040
Close the question
of responsibility.

00:30:38.679 --> 00:30:40.319
\"There\" s no doubt
that Eichmann deserves

00:30:40.320 --> 00:30:42.799
the death penalty
a thousand times,

00:30:42.800 --> 00:30:45.079
but this hanging
was a flawed sequel,

00:30:45.080 --> 00:30:48.919
a burlesque play following
an unprecedented tragedy.

00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.719
It may be fair that instead
of attempting reflection,

00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.678
and leaving it open
for the next generation,

00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:57.519
we have closed it.

00:30:57.520 --> 00:30:59.839
Our interest was
that the great moral

00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:00.999
and historical question,

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.279
the profound question
that the trial imposes upon us,

00:31:04.280 --> 00:31:06.678
\"How could this have happened?\"

00:31:06.679 --> 00:31:08.999
should preserve its gravity,

00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.479
its absolute nakedness.\"

00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.319
♪

00:31:14.320 --> 00:31:17.079
Sometime after writing
an essay on the Eichmann trial,

00:31:17.080 --> 00:31:18.678
Gershom Scholem
harshly criticizes

00:31:18.679 --> 00:31:21.639
his friend, Hannah Arendt,
who recently published

00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:24.319
Eichmann in Jerusalem.

00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:26.639
In their correspondence,
he accuses her

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:27.719
of being flippant.

00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:29.399
She opposes him on the subject

00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.678
of the Eichmann execution.

00:31:31.679 --> 00:31:33.678
♪

00:31:33.679 --> 00:31:35.839
\"You say this was
an historical mistake,

00:31:35.840 --> 00:31:38.719
a trial does not set out
to make history.

00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:41.199
Not only was the execution
justified

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.039
both politically and legally,

00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:44.959
but also it would\"ve
been impossible

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.959
not to carry out the sentence.

00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:49.919
A pardon was
out of the question,

00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:51.839
not only from
a legal point of view,

00:31:51.840 --> 00:31:54.679
pardon does not depend
upon the legal system,

00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:56.919
but because it applies
to the person

00:31:56.920 --> 00:31:58.319
rather than to the act.

00:31:58.320 --> 00:32:01.239
A pardon forgives
not the act of murder,

00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:04.159
but the murderer in as much
as he\"s worth,

00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.439
more than all
that he has done.\"

00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.959
♪

00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:10.999
Again, some interesting
issues, you know?

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:15.159
Some people thought
we are against death penalty

00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.039
on all regards of the...

00:32:17.040 --> 00:32:19.678
Now, why should we make
an exception here?

00:32:19.679 --> 00:32:22.678
Isn\"t that gonna make us
a little bit like

00:32:22.679 --> 00:32:25.479
those whom we are trying,
you know,

00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:27.159
that use bloody politics?

00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:29.639
Isn\"t that... we were
victims of that,

00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.239
aren\"t we playing that?

00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.678
Then there was an issue of, um,

00:32:35.679 --> 00:32:38.279
another issue, this will bring

00:32:38.280 --> 00:32:40.678
a false closure to the issue.

00:32:40.679 --> 00:32:44.678
This one being
Scholem\"s issue, you know?

00:32:44.679 --> 00:32:46.119
Um, which is interesting.

00:32:46.120 --> 00:32:50.079
Then Arendt thought,
you know, he should be killed,

00:32:50.080 --> 00:32:51.679
he should be left to die,

00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:53.959
but he shouldn\"t
be killed judicially

00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:57.079
because that makes Eichmann part

00:32:57.080 --> 00:32:59.919
of the civilized world.

00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:02.639
Because, after all,
putting someone

00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:07.678
into a trial is considering
a member of the political body.

00:33:07.679 --> 00:33:11.199
He\"s not a member of
the political body, Eichmann.

00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:13.678
So there were all these issues

00:33:13.679 --> 00:33:16.359
about the death penalty
that philosophers

00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:19.678
were intrigued by,
and different arguments.

00:33:19.679 --> 00:33:23.239
And I might say,
if I look at that seriously,

00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:24.879
you know, philosophically,

00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.519
I think underlying
all these issues

00:33:27.520 --> 00:33:30.959
there is another issue
that has to be focused

00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.719
in a better way.

00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:35.839
And it\"s the following:

00:33:35.840 --> 00:33:41.639
There is something
almost triumphantly strange

00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.599
about that sense of justice.

00:33:44.600 --> 00:33:48.559
Here we bring to justice
the Nazis, right?

00:33:48.560 --> 00:33:51.079
We caught one of them, Eichmann.

00:33:51.080 --> 00:33:52.639
We bring him to Jerusalem,

00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:55.159
and we\"re gonna show
how justice operates.

00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:56.639
And it\"s ridiculous,

00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.039
because you\"re talking
about retribution.

00:33:59.040 --> 00:34:01.439
There are six million
people dying there,

00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:03.079
and you caught one,
just, you know,

00:34:03.080 --> 00:34:05.639
a major criminal,
but it\"s nothing.

00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:09.119
What are you talking
about justice here?

00:34:09.120 --> 00:34:11.519
The Protecting Power
for Holland,

00:34:11.520 --> 00:34:13.999
it was decided
to enact a special law

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.759
whereby Dutch Jews,
like those of the Reich,

00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:18.799
would lose their nationality
the moment

00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:20.678
they crossed the State frontier

00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:23.919
on their journey eastwards.

00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:27.559
Zoepf was enjoined
to carry out the orders

00:34:27.560 --> 00:34:28.080
to the letter,

00:34:28.081 --> 00:34:31.678
and indeed the second half
of 1943 was a period

00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:33.479
of increased activity.

00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:39.999
The trains rolled eastwards
loaded with their human cargo.

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:43.039
What was the nature
of the trial here in Israel?

00:34:43.040 --> 00:34:46.559
Wouldn\"t you say
it was just, uh,

00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:48.879
juridical trial or was it also

00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:50.319
an historical trial or...

00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:54.678
Okay, first of all I have
to explain something basic,

00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:59.678
the terms \"show trial\"
and \"historical trial\"

00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:02.678
are, um, cultural concepts,

00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:04.519
they are not judicial concepts.

00:35:04.520 --> 00:35:09.199
The only concept, uh,
jurisdiction acknowledges

00:35:09.200 --> 00:35:12.439
is the concept of, uh,

00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:13.678
a criminal trial.

00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:19.079
Now, the Eichmann trial
was basically

00:35:19.080 --> 00:35:19.680
a criminal trial.

00:35:19.681 --> 00:35:24.879
Yet, it deviated
from a regular criminal law

00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:26.959
in many aspects.

00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.399
The first is that
many of the weaknesses,

00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.999
against the defendant,

00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:38.319
were testifying on
the issues that he had

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.320
nothing to do with.

00:35:39.321 --> 00:35:43.759
At least, I think, 60% of what
was told of the Shoah

00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:45.919
had nothing to do with Eichmann.

00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:50.719
The second,
witnesses for the defense,

00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:52.159
in favor of the defense,

00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:56.959
were not allowed to come
to testify in the trial.

00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.079
The third one, his defense

00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:04.319
was made by two German lawyers

00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:09.479
who were really
unfamiliar with Israeli law.

00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:12.679
And the trial was
conducted in Hebrew.

00:36:12.680 --> 00:36:14.759
So, everything was translated.

00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:19.678
So, this is a very
problematic judicial process.

00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.719
So, I took the...
The culture term

00:36:23.720 --> 00:36:28.799
of \"historical trial\"
both because it unveiled

00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:33.399
and unfolded
the story of the Shoah

00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:36.359
for the first time ever.

00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:42.079
And the story of the Shoah
is a very important story

00:36:42.080 --> 00:36:43.519
to be unfolded.

00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:48.678
It really changed
the whole moral, uh,

00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:52.678
ethical, judicial, uh...

00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:56.920
narrative and discourse
of the 20th century.

00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.520
(film reel rolling)

00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:42.199
I think at the end...

00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:47.559
because the trial had
unexpected consequences

00:37:47.560 --> 00:37:49.678
that actually nobody predicted,

00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.999
which is give voice
to the survivors

00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:55.599
the first time.

00:37:55.600 --> 00:37:56.520
It was worth it.

00:37:56.521 --> 00:37:58.759
Not because it brought justice,

00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:02.119
but because it happened
to be for, actually,

00:38:02.120 --> 00:38:06.119
psychologically and socially

00:38:06.120 --> 00:38:07.439
understandable reasons.

00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.399
It happened to be
the only platform

00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.599
where that voice
began to be heard.

00:38:14.600 --> 00:38:15.879
(speaking Hebrew)

00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:17.519
You entered the crematorium.

00:38:17.520 --> 00:38:18.678
Yes, I entered the crematorium.

00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:20.279
Saw the inside
of the crematorium?

00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:26.039
Yes, we had to go there
in order to obtain the wood

00:38:26.040 --> 00:38:29.678
which was said to be used
for the burning.

00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:33.919
We had to, uh,
take some of the wood

00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.678
to the camps from
the crematorium.

00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:39.479
And when there was still time,

00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:41.359
and when it was very cold,

00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:43.678
the kapo of this under commander

00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.919
took pity on us and said,

00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.239
\"Children,
it\"s very cold outside,

00:38:49.240 --> 00:38:54.119
perhaps you can get warm
in the gas chambers.\"

00:38:54.120 --> 00:38:57.399
And from then on,
really, the discourse

00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.399
has dramatically changed
in a very,

00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:02.119
very important way.

00:39:02.120 --> 00:39:06.359
So, you know,
all political moments

00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.439
have unintended consequences.

00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:11.879
This was one
unintended consequence

00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:17.239
that made the whole trial
retroactively worthwhile.

00:39:17.240 --> 00:39:20.319
Though it wasn\"t any sense
of doing justice,

00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.319
but it did some justice
with the victims

00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:24.519
and the survivors.

00:39:24.520 --> 00:39:26.159
Not by killing Eichmann,

00:39:26.160 --> 00:39:28.678
but by allowing him,
allowing them

00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:30.919
emerging before a nation
and says,

00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:32.879
\"This is our story.\"

00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.919
And a whole generation
of Israelis

00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:40.239
was transformed by that, right?

00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:43.439
Um, you know,
I come from a family...

00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.678
My father was a survivor,

00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:48.719
and, you know, I was too little

00:39:48.720 --> 00:39:53.519
at the time
to understand that...

00:39:53.520 --> 00:39:54.959
what\"s happening.

00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:00.039
But the fact that here comes
a whole generation of survivors

00:40:00.040 --> 00:40:02.678
who were silenced, basically,

00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:03.879
and could have a voice.

00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.359
Now, Israelis allowed
themselves to listen

00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.519
to that voice because
it\"s the first time

00:40:09.520 --> 00:40:13.760
they can listen to it
from a position of power.

00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.480
(rustling papers)

00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:24.399
See, what is so
interesting here...

00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:28.479
that was on my protocol

00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:30.959
from the Eichmann trial.

00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:33.799
You see, 7601.

00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:36.039
And here you have Eichmann,

00:40:36.040 --> 00:40:40.239
and that is one
of the, um, judges.

00:40:40.240 --> 00:40:42.678
Put it on the same paper.

00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:44.960
That\"s original.

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:46.920
That\"s very strange.

00:40:46.921 --> 00:40:50.799
And that is my
transport list when I came

00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.039
from Theresienstadt
to Auschwitz,

00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:57.279
and I got it... I found it
in an Auschwitz museum.

00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:59.479
It\"s my list with my name.

00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:00.120
It\"s your family?

00:41:00.121 --> 00:41:02.678
Yeah, all the Bakons,
there were father,

00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:04.839
mother, and sister.

00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:08.080
Nobody came back, only me.

00:41:11.080 --> 00:41:19.080
♪

00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:35.759
I was invited to the town
from where I came, it\"s Ostrów,

00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:41.679
and suddenly I saw
a group of Germans, elderly.

00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:45.599
In my eyes, I was 16,

00:41:45.600 --> 00:41:48.079
and they had to shovel snow,

00:41:48.080 --> 00:41:52.519
and I thought,
\"Hah, now I am here,

00:41:52.520 --> 00:41:56.559
and I can take a stone
and throw at them

00:41:56.560 --> 00:41:58.678
and take revenge!\"

00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.678
But, but I\"m a little child,

00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.600
revenge for my father.

00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:13.439
And then I thought
the ashes of my father

00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.039
who was somewhere thrown
in Vistula,

00:42:16.040 --> 00:42:19.559
they took the ashes from
the crematorium in Auschwitz

00:42:19.560 --> 00:42:21.639
and throw it in Vistula,

00:42:21.640 --> 00:42:23.519
it will not come up.

00:42:23.520 --> 00:42:26.678
He will not be resurrected.

00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:29.999
I don\"t know if this
old German...

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:33.679
if they really
are good or bad Germans,

00:42:33.680 --> 00:42:34.719
what they are.

00:42:34.720 --> 00:42:38.919
But they will hate,
and they will hate more,

00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:42.079
and they will hate thirds on,

00:42:42.080 --> 00:42:44.359
because they\"ve been punished...

00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:46.159
They will be punished
for something

00:42:46.160 --> 00:42:47.959
they maybe haven\"t done.

00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:52.719
It... I wasn\"t interested
in this case,

00:42:52.720 --> 00:42:56.919
but then it came something
to me this thought,

00:42:56.920 --> 00:43:00.279
what we... that is
a question of hate,

00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:03.759
it will go further on
and further on.

00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:06.159
What can you do against it?

00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:08.799
Is this a solution?

00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.239
♪

00:43:11.240 --> 00:43:13.599
(whispered chatter)

00:43:13.600 --> 00:43:21.600
♪

00:43:38.120 --> 00:43:42.079
Justice is basically
monopolizing revenge, right?

00:43:42.080 --> 00:43:44.439
You don\"t want...
A regular state

00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:47.599
doesn\"t want revenge
to be a private business,

00:43:47.600 --> 00:43:49.679
because it grows and grows.

00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:51.719
It wants to...
It wants to engage

00:43:51.720 --> 00:43:56.119
in controlled actions
of retribution.

00:43:56.120 --> 00:44:02.959
And, um, revenge and justice
are not that far away, right?

00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:06.678
Because justice,
the kind of instinct of justice

00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:07.679
is retribution.

00:44:07.680 --> 00:44:11.039
An eye for an eye, right?

00:44:11.040 --> 00:44:13.639
And the State taking over,

00:44:13.640 --> 00:44:17.359
politics, basically, takes over

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:20.678
and monopolizes revenge,

00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:23.679
and says this is justice.

00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.678
(muffled announcer
speaking Hebrew)

00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:30.119
On December 15th, 1961
Hugo Bergmann writes,

00:44:30.120 --> 00:44:34.199
\"Eichmann has been
given the death sentence.

00:44:34.200 --> 00:44:35.080
I heard the news on the radio

00:44:35.081 --> 00:44:37.678
and my heart leapt
when I heard Hausner state

00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:39.319
that the tribunal
was forced by law

00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:43.599
to pronounce the death sentence.

00:44:43.600 --> 00:44:44.678
The end seemed more humane

00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:47.519
as the presiding judge
said that the convict

00:44:47.520 --> 00:44:49.600
could appeal.\"

00:44:53.679 --> 00:45:00.959
♪

00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:02.879
On his side,
Martin Buber requests

00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:06.039
a meeting with
Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion.

00:45:06.040 --> 00:45:10.799
♪

00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:12.079
\"A few weeks ago Buber told me

00:45:12.080 --> 00:45:15.319
that he wished
to speak to me in private

00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:17.159
about some matter.

00:45:17.160 --> 00:45:19.399
But first he wanted
to come to me.

00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:21.879
But I told him
that I was younger than he,

00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:25.519
and I would therefore go to him.

00:45:25.520 --> 00:45:28.519
I arrived at 7:30
in the evening.

00:45:28.520 --> 00:45:30.678
He said he wished
to talk about Eichmann,

00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:32.799
that Eichmann
shouldn\"t be hanged,

00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:34.719
but handed over
to another country

00:45:34.720 --> 00:45:37.199
or sentenced
to life imprisonment.

00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:39.999
If we hang him,
a new myth would be created,

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.399
a myth for generations to come.

00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.199
A new Antichrist myth.

00:45:45.200 --> 00:45:47.079
Although he had always
been against

00:45:47.080 --> 00:45:47.920
the death penalty,

00:45:47.921 --> 00:45:50.399
it was not for this
reason that he opposed

00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:51.599
the execution,

00:45:51.600 --> 00:45:53.159
but because of the disproportion

00:45:53.160 --> 00:45:56.678
between the crime
and the punishment.

00:45:56.679 --> 00:45:57.679
I let him talk, and I told him

00:45:57.680 --> 00:45:59.359
that I wouldn\"t
be sorry if Eichmann

00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:02.079
happened to die
before the verdict,

00:46:02.080 --> 00:46:04.599
because I considered
putting him on trial

00:46:04.600 --> 00:46:06.079
the most important thing.

00:46:06.080 --> 00:46:08.639
Not just Eichmann,
but all the Nazis,

00:46:08.640 --> 00:46:11.678
so that the young
generation in Israel will know,

00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:13.079
and so that the world
public opinion

00:46:13.080 --> 00:46:15.678
will remember a trial
that at first

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.399
was opposed by many.

00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.919
As for me,
I have no need for revenge,

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:25.199
because how can the murder
of six million be avenged?

00:46:25.200 --> 00:46:28.678
But according to the law,
he deserves the death penalty.

00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.359
There\"s no greater
punishment than this.

00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.919
Anything less is not possible.

00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:36.678
We agreed to disagree.\"

00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:41.679
♪

00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:45.679
Ben-Gurion disagreed.

00:46:45.680 --> 00:46:48.879
He listened to him, uh,

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:52.678
there is even a record
of the meeting,

00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.199
uh, but he thought that...

00:46:56.200 --> 00:46:58.719
He thought that Buber
did not make

00:46:58.720 --> 00:47:02.199
a strong enough case
in order to change his mind

00:47:02.200 --> 00:47:06.559
about Eichmann\"s final verdict.

00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:07.200
What would you think...

00:47:07.201 --> 00:47:10.639
But he brought it back
to the government

00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:12.480
for discussion.

00:47:14.840 --> 00:47:20.678
Eichmann\"s appeal
is rejected on May 29th, 1962.

00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:22.759
A few hours later,
Ben-Gurion sets up a meeting

00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:25.678
and informs his government
of his conversation

00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:27.678
with Martin Buber.

00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.439
Prosecutor Hausner restates
that one of the functions

00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.239
of the president
is to grant pardon.

00:47:33.240 --> 00:47:35.999
Ben-Gurion then asks
who among his ministers

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:38.279
would support this possibility?

00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:42.039
Finance minister Levi Eshkol
favors reducing the sentence,

00:47:42.040 --> 00:47:44.599
which would be proceeded
by a public announcement

00:47:44.600 --> 00:47:47.879
explaining the reason why.

00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:49.678
Dov Yosef, minister of justice,

00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:51.678
does not see why Israel
should conduct itself

00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:54.719
any differently
than any other nation.

00:47:54.720 --> 00:47:56.959
He recalls that 77
death sentences

00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:59.639
were pronounced in Nuremberg.

00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:01.519
♪

00:48:01.520 --> 00:48:04.199
For Golda Meir,
minister of foreign affairs,

00:48:04.200 --> 00:48:06.719
no nation in the world
would in a similar case

00:48:06.720 --> 00:48:08.678
have shown any
Christian charity,

00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:11.719
whereas everyone demands it
of the Jewish people,

00:48:11.720 --> 00:48:13.159
Jews and non-Jews.

00:48:13.160 --> 00:48:15.999
She is not prepared to go along
with the philosophers.

00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:18.519
She knows what sources
steeped in humanism

00:48:18.520 --> 00:48:20.519
have inspired these thoughts,

00:48:20.520 --> 00:48:22.678
but is opposed to them.

00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:30.679
♪

00:48:34.600 --> 00:48:36.678
(vehicle alarm chirps)

00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:38.879
On the same evening,
Martin Buber gathers

00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:40.599
the last signatures
for the petition

00:48:40.600 --> 00:48:42.599
requesting that
the death sentence

00:48:42.600 --> 00:48:43.919
be commuted.

00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.199
Over the telephone
he announces to Hugo Bergmann

00:48:46.200 --> 00:48:49.479
that he has obtained 20
out of the 30 they hoped for.

00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:52.079
One of them, that of their
friend the painter,

00:48:52.080 --> 00:48:55.279
Yehuda Bakon.

00:48:55.280 --> 00:49:03.280
♪

00:49:18.120 --> 00:49:22.319
On May 31st, 1962
Eichmann\"s appeal for pardon

00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:23.479
is refused.

00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:25.678
In the margin of
the philosopher\"s petition,

00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:28.039
President Yitzhak Ben-Zvi
writes a verse

00:49:28.040 --> 00:49:29.999
from the book of Samuel.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.678
\"As thy sword
hath made women childless,

00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:36.839
so shall thy mother
be childless among women.\"

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.320
(dog barking)

00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:45.040
(speaking Hebrew)

00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:57.159
♪

00:52:57.160 --> 00:53:00.519
On June 1st Hugo Bergmann
wrote in his journal,

00:53:00.520 --> 00:53:02.079
\"Early this morning Else told me

00:53:02.080 --> 00:53:03.678
that Eichmann had been hanged.

00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:06.199
There was to be a meeting
at my house at 10 o\"clock,

00:53:06.200 --> 00:53:09.799
but instead it was
held at the radio station.

00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:12.360
(speaking Hebrew)

00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:40.239
Bergmann framed the issue
in the larger, I think,

00:54:40.240 --> 00:54:44.639
in that respect
from the three of them

00:54:44.640 --> 00:54:48.279
he brought maybe a deeper issue,

00:54:48.280 --> 00:54:51.719
because it wasn\"t related
to the particular understanding

00:54:51.720 --> 00:54:54.119
of the event vis-à-vis
the relation

00:54:54.120 --> 00:54:55.879
between Jews and Germans
and the like,

00:54:55.880 --> 00:55:00.919
it was an internal
Jewish problem.

00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:02.759
And he saw in...

00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:08.999
in the emerging modern
Jewish history this clash

00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:10.000
in the tradition

00:55:10.001 --> 00:55:12.239
that exists already
in tradition.

00:55:12.240 --> 00:55:13.639
There are two voices.

00:55:13.640 --> 00:55:14.919
One is...

00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:18.399
You know, both are very
particularistic,

00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:21.678
but the one voice it says,
you know,

00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:25.239
the memory of the Holocaust
like all memories of pain

00:55:25.240 --> 00:55:32.439
in our tradition are about
solidarity with victims

00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:33.999
because we were victims.

00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:37.678
And there is this idea of,
you know, remember the stranger

00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:41.439
because you were
a stranger in Egypt.

00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:44.879
Very deep in
the Jewish tradition.

00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.599
Then you have
other voices, right?

00:55:47.600 --> 00:55:50.479
Which is not about
\"turn your memory

00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:53.678
into a moment of solidarity

00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:54.719
with the vulnerable,\"

00:55:54.720 --> 00:55:59.559
but actually remember
so you can revenge, you know?

00:55:59.560 --> 00:56:04.479
This is the Amalek
commandment, you know.

00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:08.279
Don\"t forget
what they have done to you.

00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:12.679
And he thought that this
trial will play into

00:56:12.680 --> 00:56:16.719
this voice in the tradition,

00:56:16.720 --> 00:56:19.759
and it will strengthen
tendencies

00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:23.479
within a rather ambivalent
complex traditions

00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:25.399
that he didn\"t like.

00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:28.678
And for good reasons.

00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.678
Um, and he thought
that\"s a wrong

00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:35.119
educational message
of who we are

00:56:35.120 --> 00:56:37.199
and what we are as people,

00:56:37.200 --> 00:56:38.599
and what Judaism is,

00:56:38.600 --> 00:56:41.839
and how we enact
Judaism in our life,

00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:44.319
in our political life.

00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:47.279
\"For me, what is essentially
is the soul of Israel,

00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.239
the terrible experience
of the Holocaust

00:56:49.240 --> 00:56:51.678
has already mocked our souls.

00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:53.519
The complexes
which have tormented us

00:56:53.520 --> 00:56:56.719
for hundreds of years
have been reawakened.

00:56:56.720 --> 00:56:58.599
We face a terrible dilemma.

00:56:58.600 --> 00:57:00.279
We\"re confronted by the danger

00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:02.039
of choosing isolation,

00:57:02.040 --> 00:57:03.678
of turning away from others

00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:05.678
because they\"re uncircumcised,

00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:09.519
and of abandoning
our mission amongst nations.\"

00:57:09.520 --> 00:57:11.999
♪

00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.678
If you read what
Hugo Bergmann said

00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:17.439
to the letter of
(unintelligible),

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:18.120
he was a prophet.

00:57:18.121 --> 00:57:22.678
Because he said
we should not base our life

00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:25.799
of being always in the position

00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:28.359
of a persecuted nation,

00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:31.678
of being persecuted
and hated by all nations.

00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:37.039
We should base our lives
in being an integral part

00:57:37.040 --> 00:57:39.679
of the family of nations.

00:57:39.680 --> 00:57:41.639
He was right.

00:57:41.640 --> 00:57:44.399
In a way, um...

00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:46.959
In the aftermaths
of the Eichmann trial,

00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:48.678
compared with
the Six-Day War

00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:51.119
and the Yom Kippur War,
especially,

00:57:51.120 --> 00:57:53.679
the Shoah became
the central element

00:57:53.680 --> 00:57:57.678
of the Israeli
national identity.

00:57:57.679 --> 00:57:59.799
Simple as that.

00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:01.959
Actually, we...

00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:04.799
we measure, we estimate,

00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:11.359
we weigh our existential
situation and condition

00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:12.639
to the Shoah.

00:58:12.640 --> 00:58:14.759
I mean, Iran is the Shoah,

00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:16.399
a Palestinian state
is the Shoah,

00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:19.678
everything is
an existential threat

00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:23.119
because we have
the Shoah as the compass

00:58:23.120 --> 00:58:26.879
by which we weigh
our existential condition

00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:29.999
and our existential decisions.

00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.719
This is, in my eyes,

00:58:32.720 --> 00:58:35.079
um, a national catastrophe,

00:58:35.080 --> 00:58:38.959
because we cannot
deal with anything

00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.879
with the present reality,

00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:43.239
with the actual present reality.

00:58:43.240 --> 00:58:47.239
We are overshadowed
with the trauma of the Shoah,

00:58:47.240 --> 00:58:50.678
which is never a wise, um,

00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:55.159
conciliation to make
a reasonable decision.

00:58:55.160 --> 00:58:59.479
I do believe that in a way
tampers also the...

00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:02.839
the peace process, which is,

00:59:02.840 --> 00:59:05.678
to my ideological point of view,

00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:10.039
a very problematic affair.

00:59:10.040 --> 00:59:18.040
♪