WEBVTT

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[sil.]

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[music]

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I, the undersigned,
Abdurazzack Zackie Achmat,

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do hereby affirm and say, that
I am alive male, 38 years old,

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born on the 21st of March 1962.

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My identity document number is 6-2-0-

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3-2... I reside

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at 32 Mainroad Muizenberg, Cape Town. I\'m the
founding member of the Treatment Action Campaign,

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TAC, and currently the
chair-person of the organization.

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Since 1976 I have been involved in anti-apartheid
and human rights work. Our parents have died,

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our friends have died,
our families have died.

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We are dying. I am a gay man,
and I have been active in the

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struggle for lesbian, gay, bisexual,
and cross-gendered people.

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I have HIV. Currently I\'m in
good health and productive.

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[sil.]

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My public position, as it stands, is
that I won\'t take anti-retrovirals until

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they\'re available to people in the
public sector. From my side, uh,

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I think it\'s a very difficult
decision, but as long as I\'m of sound

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mind, it\'s one that I will carry through.

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[sil.]

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In terms of HIV, how is

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being HIV Positive changed your
life or your attitude to life?

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It\'s something I can\'t get away from.
It\'s something that you can\'t escape.

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It\'s something that you go to bed with at night,
and wake up with in the morning, and, so from that

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point of view it\'s become part of my
life, much as my skin color. But it

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has that edge of negativity to
it, which you can\'t escape.

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I\'m assuming you wouldn\'t be
the, you know, the typical South

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African who might be infected. Absolutely not. And I\'m
just wondering sort of you know, how long you\'ve been

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able to access anti-retrovirals or you
know.. Nathan first was telling me that you

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suffered from thrush, for instance.
Well one of the, I

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don\'t take anti-retrovirals and I won\'t take
it until it\'s available in the public sector.

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Um, I am not your ordinary

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South African and that\'s why I take that stand.
Because many people die because they\'re faceless. And

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they don\'t have a name and they\'re poor, and they just
get dumped in a mortuary. Some don\'t even have a burial.

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Is not taking the drugs, how is that,
I mean how will you be able to,

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what are you going to do
if this causes this to

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die if you could have not died, you know. How
are you going to help people by doing that?

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You know actually, when I first made the
stand, I had a theoretical argument. Yes.

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For all range of different reasons. Sorry, your Fair
Lady photographer\'s here, do you want her to come up?

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Um, we\'re not gonna be... [crosstalk]
You want to take a picture (inaudible)

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if this is going on like this?

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Um, maybe but I think he probably wants
Zackie to go out Go and the (inaudible)

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from the beach?

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Yeah, exactly, something on the beach or something
so it\'s.. No thank you, no. With a speedo.

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HIV positive Speedo! Get that
HIV positive speedo, then

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I\'ll do it. I\'ll do it if you
get an HIV positive speedo!

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[music]

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Okie-doke.

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Can you explain to us what you\'re doing here?
Sure. Um, Zackie\'s has various warts on his

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fingers. And, um, they\'re not normally
a problem but, this one\'s got

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infected, and infections in someone whose
immune system isn\'t working as well as it

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should are not a good idea because
they lower the immune capabilities.

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So what we do with this one is literally
just take it out. How you doing there? Fine.

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Sore? No, I\'m just thinking
of how I\'m going to type

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after this. Not very well. (inaudible)

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makes Timentin. Ok.

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Can\'t type with it. Can\'t type with it.

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Um, what I\'ve just done is I\'ve just finished the memorandum
we\'re going to hand over to parliament this afternoon,

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and that memorandum states that we
want the government to implement

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a plan for treatment for people with HIV.

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[music]

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We\'ll ask Comrade Zackie
from the TAC to address us.

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Zackie?

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Comrades, I\'d like to ask all of you.
Every single one of us, to lie down,

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flat on the ground, on your back.
To show our parliamentarians

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that we are dying. Today we are here to

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ask president Mbeki to
develop a treatment plan for

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people with HIV by the
16th of June this year.

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Today we say, to everyone,
that we are ready

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if necessary to take all
the measures necessary

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to get treatment to people
with HIV and AIDS. We will

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continue our defiance campaign against
the drug company [sp]pittance.

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But most importantly, we here say to our
government \'Don\'t waste money on arms,

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on scrap metal. Invest it
in our lives and we will

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show you, we will grow a better country
that this world has ever seen...\'

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[music]

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Ten years old, I\'m sent to the shop to buy

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tomatoes.

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Being myself, I daydream all the way

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there, and on my way back a
car\'s hooter stirs me from it.

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It is a Kombi. A white man beckons me.
He opens the passenger

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door and shows me his cock.

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I drop the tomatoes and run.

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[sil.]

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In the kitchen Nana, who
cooks on Sundays, bellows \'

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Where\'s the damn tomatoes?\'. I run

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back. The tomatoes are squashed. Forgetting
the tomatoes for a minute, I run up

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and down looking for the Kombi,
wishing I had got into it.

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At home, I earn a hiding because
I cannot account for the

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tomatoes.

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[sil.]

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If it\'s Toby, I\'m not here. Hello,
Jack speaking, Zackie\'s phone.

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Cool it, Zackie\'s rushing to get
on a plane to go to Joburg.

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Anti-depressants.

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Twenty years worth of depression.
Sinus stuff.

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Finger stuff. Vitamins. More
anti-depression things.

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Um, socks.

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I only have a single pair of socks.
These are ugly socks, I don\'t

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wear them. I hate ugly socks. I\'ll take this ugly
pair of socks Well you can take all the ugly pairs of

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socks. I hate ugly socks. If I can\'t
have decent socks, I don\'t feel

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decent. Um, computer, in that. We\'ll be

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okay. Go see your mother then? Yeah,
that\'s true. She\'s been very neglected.

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Yeah, please go see her.

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[music]

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The world\'s largest pharmaceutical companies are taking the South
African government to court over a law that would allow it

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to provide cheaper essential medicines.
We, the Treatment Action Campaign,

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support this rule because it will allow
the government to provide affordable

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anti-HIV drugs.

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Hiya grease spoon.

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All right.

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Can I give him a hug? How are you?

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Uh, what are you doing? I\'m just waiting for my burger...
Okay, let\'s go sit down and go get some burger.

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I\'ve got thirty bucks in there, so.. Did Mark give you money? It\'s
all right. No you\'re the one who\'s got no money at the moment.

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I stole some money! It\'s fine.

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As Mark said, there\'s no question
that the next few weeks,

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especially the court case, is going to decide whether people
with HIV in South Africa will get access to treatment.

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And if they don\'t, uh, if
we don\'t pull our weight,

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then we won\'t that access, and that\'s basically
all that needs to be said for me to add to Mark.

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It\'s going to be the deciding factor.
Um, because it\'s what\'s

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going to strip away the last vestige of an
excuse that government has not to provide

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medicines. I\'ll mention that we\'ve been campaigning
for access to mother-to-child transmission just in

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court in order to correct any of the
drug companies\' spin on it. And also to

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mention that we support the government on this,
but, uh... I don\'t know what people think because I

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think just in order to set the record
straight, so that they don\'t see that we are

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un-critically supportive of government,
that we don\'t automatically support

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everything that government does, and
we do think that it\'s important that

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neverapine be made available. MEDICINS SANS FRONTIERESThe point I
want to make is that this is really about commercial interests

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versus human rights, versus
the right to life. And it is

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really about what comes first. The second point I
want to make is that although this is a case, a

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South African case, in a South African court, in
South Africa, this is not about South Africa at all.

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The whole world is watching. This
case is really about what comes

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first; commercial interests of the
multinationals, or the right to life of people.

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So, the Treatment Action
Campaign has decided to

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join the court case as a
friend of the court because we

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believe we bring a specific, unique perspective
of the voice of people living with

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HIV and AIDS who do not have access to essential
medicines, and who, at the coal-face if you

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want, of this epidemic. The Treatment Action
Campaign in the past has been extremely

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critical of the government and now you want
to join it as an amicus, as a friend in

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this campaign. How do you explain that?
How can you suddenly be friends?

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Our government has not done sufficient
in getting medicines to our clinics.

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So while I am not here to defend our government,
because I think our government could do a lot

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more, especially in the areas of mother-to-child transmission.
Especially in many other areas, there\'s a lot that the

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government could do. But, I think when the government
does a good job we support it, when it doesn\'t do its

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work, we tackle it. I really like it you

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know, when these uh, our international allies
say \'You speak about the passion and the human

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aspect\' and they always think that
they\'re brought in to come and do the

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intellectual bit and the law bit.

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This is not to go in the movie.
They really think we don\'t know the

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laws and the things ourselves.

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[sil.]

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First meeting in our Marxist days.
Probably in

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\'86. Mid-year 1986 London

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Fields, Hackney England.

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When we.. Do you want me to say more?

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Yeah, say what you want. When
he was Michael and I was Shaun

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Kelly. Shaw? Have you

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seen the poster?

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[sil.]

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Goodnight Dad and Zackie. Goodnight my sweet
little boy. Are you leaving? Are you leaving?

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No. Eh? I\'m sleeping. [music]

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We\'re marching in Pretoria. Come to our

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march.

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Stop drug company profiteering.
We\'re having a march on Monday

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for (inaudible)

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, please come join us.

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You will take one, won\'t you?
This is for the march for...

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[music]

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Good afternoon, I\'m Vuyo Mbuli with
the news. Hundreds of protestors

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affiliated to the AIDS lobby group, the
Treatment Action Campaign, and labour

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federation Cosatu, are marching
through the streets of Pretoria.

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The pharmaceutical Manufacturers Association is
suing the South African government for a law that

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enables the country to purchase generic
drugs rather their more expensive

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equivalents. The Treatment Action
Campaign has applied to be a friend

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of the court. If the application is successful,
the TAC will be allowed to present

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argument that supports government\'s
case against international drug

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companies. [music]

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It\'s very nice to see you. This big media
circus is very positive. I mean you\'ve

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got the whole world basically coming together,
right, so this is by far in a way the

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biggest ever in this campaign event.
So, you know, you guys have done a

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fabulous job too.

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[music] I just want to report on

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what has happened so far in the
start of this case. The first two

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hours of this morning\'s court hearing
were taken up with the pharmaceutical

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Manufacturer\'s Association
representatives arguing very strongly to

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try to silence the constitutional
right of the TAC and of all of us

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to be heard by the court and to add our voice
to that court. We\'re allowed to speak, but the

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drug companies are fighting tooth and
nail to keep us out of the court.

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Even if we lose in this court, and even if
we lose in court, we\'ll succeed someday.

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There\'s no doubt in my mind because
we\'ve got right on our side.

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There\'s not a single major civil society
body who has defended the right of the

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pharmaceutical companies to profiteer
from peoples lives. And so for

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us in the end, this case is
just about a very simple thing.

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It\'s about life or greed.
Nothing else; life or greed.

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[sil.]

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The top stories on Morning Live today; pressure
is mounting on pharmaceutical companies

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involved in court action against the
importation of cheaper AIDS drugs.

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Zackie, a very good morning to you, and thank you very much for joining
us. There\'s not only been local support but also international support.

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Are you surprised? Surely you must concede that
pharmaceutical companies have a right to a profit.

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Well, there\'s no doubt in my mind, no doubt
whatsoever, that we defend the right to invention,

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the right to you know, people who
research and develop things have a

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right to reasonable reward for their efforts.
And more than that, they also need to be

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encouraged to make profit to develop
medicines. But the question here is about

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profiteering. About making exorbitant profits
at the expense of people\'s lives. Vivatec viva!

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Viva Cosatu viva! Amandla!

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Comrades, the most important thing that
happened today is that Judge Ngoepe of the

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high court has ruled that Treatment Action
Campaign will stand in the court, and that the

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drug companies have to answer us,
they have to give us an answer.

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In our top story, Pretoria Judge President Bernard
Ngoepe has granted the Treatment Action Campaign

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permission to become a friend of the court..
So far we\'ve been given the rights to

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participate in the case. The case has been
postponed to the 18th of next month to allow the

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pharmaceutical Manufacturer\'s Association to prepare response
to the ruling made in favor of the Treatment Action Campaign.

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Today is going to be a very
important day. And this

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day is a day on which
everyone in this room should

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congratulate themselves. Because
we have made the mightiest

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industry in the world shake in its boots.

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[sil.]

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[music]

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The (inaudible)

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Public Library was a mobile unit.

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I read most of its books in three months.

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[sil.]

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The colored librarian wrote a letter
to the chief librarian at Observatory

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Library. The white library. I
begged them to let me use it.

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Observatory library had shelves and shelves

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filled with books. It had places to sit
and read. My letter allowed me to be

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one of the few coloreds to use this white-only
library, but the liberalism did not

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extend to the toilets. One afternoon I

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desperately needed to go. Despite my
insistence that it was am emergency, I was

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directed to the station.

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[sil.]

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I rushed there, and decided to
use the white\'s only toilet.

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There was a man, a white
man, about 20 years old.

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He tried to pretend that I was not there.
I looked at him.

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.999
I walked up to him, and
put my arms around him.

00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:39.999
He whispered nervously
\'You are only a child.

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.999
Go home\'. He spoke softly, he was strong,

00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.999
but I wouldn\'t go. He saw that
I was not going to relent.

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.999
He kissed me, he held me,
but he could not hold out

00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.999
against me. He would not enter me, but he

00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:05.000
entered me.

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.999
What!?

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.999
[sil.]

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.999
Who\'s there to talk about this? The
fucking MCC has launched a legal

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.999
action against the Western Cape
government for using nevirapine.

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:39.999
Faired, this is Zackie? Um, please call
me, it\'s very urgent. Thanks very much,

00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.999
bye.

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.999
Zackie, hello? How is it Faired?
I hear the MCC is threatening

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:54.999
legal action against you? Yeah,
but the drug is registered,

00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.999
the drug is registered... but it\'s not

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.999
necessary to go to cabinet for a bloody medical
decision, which the Minister of Health can take anyway.

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.999
Yeah I know, I\'m very sorry about it.
Okay buddy, we\'ll

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.999
talk later. Bye now. Sorry, hello.

00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:19.999
How are you doing? I\'m fine, thank you.
How are you? Nice to meet you.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.999
So, we should do it quickly. All right.
Zackie Achmat. Last year

00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.999
there was the idea that President Thabo
Mbeki didn\'t want to give AIDS drugs

00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.999
to the 4 million people
with HIV in South Africa.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.999
Now it seems like he wants to
give the AIDS drugs. What has

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.999
changed Well, I\'m not so sure that the
president still wants to give us AIDS

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.999
drugs. I think that is, um, I think that what
the president, what this legislation, is

00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.999
about is making all medicines affordable.
We are coming to the, we are coming to the

00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.999
court case and saying \'We want AIDS
drugs also to be affordable\'. So, the

00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.999
question is that I still believe that
our president doesn\'t understand the

00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.999
need for anti-retrovirals.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.999
[music]

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.999
I want to see the symbolism of the David and
Goliath metaphor, which is very cliched, but in

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.999
fact this is very much what we are seeing
here. We are seeing a small band of

00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.999
people who have a lot of passion and a lot
of very strong belief, and a very very good

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.999
argument, but not much funding.
Arguably not much political clout,

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:39.999
taking on a lot of funding, a lot of
political clout, a lot of influence.

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.999
That\'s perfect, that\'s lovely. Because he\'s looking at her, she\'s
looking at us, and then we\'ve got the stuff across the back.

00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:49.999
That\'s perfect. Well done. Okay good. Zackie
Achmat, for any of you who don\'t know, but he

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.999
works for a thing called the Treatment Action
Campaign and it aims to make drugs more accessible

00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.999
to people living with HIV and AIDS.
Dangling in outer space in

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.999
Geneva is Mirryena Deeb. She represents the
pharmaceutical Manufacturer\'s Association.

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.999
She\'s its chief executive officer.
Hello Miryeena!

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.999
Let\'s get our facts uh... What we\'re dealing
with in the HIV epidemic is essentially and

00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.999
primarily a lack of political will. You want prices
comparisons internationally, I\'ll give you actual

00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.999
prices. Mirryena, can you tell us
why your study shows, your study,

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.999
or your consultant\'s study who masquerades as
an academic but he\'s in fact a consultant of

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.999
the drug companies, that
his study shows that we

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:39.999
pay 25 cents, or we pay

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.999
more, than the British pay for medicines.
Can you say why your own study shows that?

00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.999
Our studies... (crosstalk)And, and, and sorry
looking... Sorry, no, no, no answer, answer that

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:54.999
question. Why do we, why does a poorer
country, why does a poorer country,

00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.999
why does a poorer country pay more for medicines
than a very very rich imperialist country. [music]

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.999
higher in the UK which
is a state subsidized...

00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.999
What are we marching for?

00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.999
We\'re marching for treatment for
people with HIV! We want everyone to

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.999
join us! To fight the drug
companies, who are making profits

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.999
out of people\'s lives! Everyone
should join our march.

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.999
And these companies have taken our
government to court because they

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.999
prefer us to die in our thousands
than to lose their profits.

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:39.999
And we are saying that we are not

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.999
going to allow them to take our government
to court without us taking action against

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.999
them. Your agitation to ensure

00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.999
access to safe, cost effective, and
quality medication to all South Africans

00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.999
is also the objective of my company and
other members of the pharmaceutical...

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.999
Not today! Not any other

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:10.000
day, are we going to
continue dying quietly.

00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:29.999
Enough, enough. No more AIDS.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.999
[sil.]

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.999
So Jack, what um, what did Zackie say? Uh,

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.999
he just, I think he\'s just feeling very
tired and feels that he can\'t really

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.999
you know just pushing out stuff all the time.
You know he mentioned earlier that he was

00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.999
finding it very exhausting doing all these interviews and stuff
like that, and it\'s almost getting like that\'s all he does,

00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.999
you know. So uhh, I think
he just needs to take some

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.999
time out. And does this happen quite often with him if he
comes back from a stint? I mean, like in Joburg, or...

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.999
Uh, no this is, I think something new.
Because the

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.999
level of interview pressure has
never been in his previous history

00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.999
anything remotely like what it is now.
This is completely unprecedented.

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.999
[sil.]

00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.999
There\'s a bug in there, you\'ve got
temperature 38. Pulse rate\'s 100.

00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.999
Little bit. Sore? Yeah.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:39.999
But not... And this side? ...not
as bad as the other side.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.999
Sinuses are doing their usual thing.

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.999
Today? You\'re going to work now?
Yeah, I just need to look at the

00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:54.999
last bits of papers and then I\'m going to sleep.
Zackie listen, you need to be... the problem is if you

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.999
collapse... I mean you\'ve been
sitting with those [ph]gastro

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.999
since the congress. You know it was really
bad the other day. I had to work on

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.999
Sunday on the court papers. I couldn\'t work on
the court papers, I missed that completely.

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.999
Let\'s go.

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.999
Zackie needs to take care of himself.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.999
I think activism\'s a lot more
successful if you stay alive.

00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.999
You know. Particularly for yourself.

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.999
[sil.]

00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.999
How are you feeling today, Zacks? That\'s a
non-sequitur. No it is, I want to know.

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.999
Are you getting better there, Zacks? Are
you taking what your doctor told you

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.999
seriously? Yeah, no, I am.

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.999
The fever\'s gone, which is the main thing.
But you\'re definitely catching

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.999
this, I promise you I had the same fever... I\'ve been
having this for four weeks now, thank you. Jack has a

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.999
way of uh, every time I get
sick he has to get sicker.

00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:09.999
Is that true, Jack? Uh, absolutely.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.999
I was sick as a dog last night.
I\'m sure you were sick as a dog,

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.999
because I was sick. I can tell when
you\'re gonna be sick because I\'m

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.999
sick. \'cause I knew you were sick.

00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.999
[sil.]

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:38.000
[music]

00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.999
Good morning. When Mr.
Justice Bernard Ngoepe

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.999
admitted the Treatment Action Campaign
as an amicus in this case, he made the

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:39.999
point that every person in
South Africa had a serious

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.999
public and abiding public interest in this
matter before the court. He also said

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.999
that people beyond our borders have an
interest in this court case. He directed the

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:54.999
Pharmaceuticals Manufacturer\'s
Association to respond to every

00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:59.999
allegation that we had raised in our
founding affidavit. Among others,

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.999
we had said that HIV/AIDS
crisis is a threat to the

00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:09.999
social fabric of our society. We
had said that there are medicines

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.999
for people with HIV and AIDS. Those
medicines were shown to be effective.

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.999
They\'re called \'anti-retrovirals\', and
the majority of people with HIV and AIDS

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.999
cannot afford these medicines
because they cost too much.

00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:33.000
[music]

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.999
How are you doing?

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.999
Well, we certainly hope that there\'s going to
be some movement today. Otherwise we\'re going

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.999
ahead.

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:18.000
[sil.]

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:29.999
And are you confident that
the government will win this

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.999
one? Why... I can\'t read the judges\' mind.
Yes, but are you

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.999
confident that you have a strong defense case?
We would not have come here in the first

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.999
instance if we did not think our case was
legitimate. Mirryena, where are your 42

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.999
guys? How are you doing,
your 42 guys should be

00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.999
here, man?

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.999
I listened to you on BBC last night, you were ahead of me, but you
said something that surprised me. What did I say? You said you

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.999
respect Intellectual Property rights,
what is that. Of course we do.

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.240
We don\'t respect greed, we don\'t respect greed. And
I\'ve told you what to do about it, use the (inaudible)

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.999
We\'ll talk about it, we\'ll talk about it.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.999
Ladies and gentlemen, please
remove all television cameras.

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.999
Please switch off all cell phones.
Thank you.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.999
[sil.]

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:38.000
[music]

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.999
Yeah, we\'re rolling. Okay, um. From
our side we\'re very happy, but we\'re

00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.999
cautious about the developments.
It\'s very clear that the

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.999
Pharmaceutical Manufacturer\'s Association is
crumbling. They\'ve had a careful study of the papers,

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.999
they know that on paper in front of the court they look
really bad and they are compromised, so it\'s clear that they

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.999
want a settlement. We are saying to
our government; \'Make the settlement,

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.999
but make the settlement quite clear. They drop the
case, and you get on with the task of providing

00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.999
cheaper medicine\'. This is to the drug
company, directly to the drug company?

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.999
We\'re busy in discussion. That\'s obviously... Busy in discussion
with the government? Well who else would we be in discussion with?

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.999
How long have these discussions be going? Can\'t
answer more questions now. Can I escape and

00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.999
go and have a cup of coffee?
Yeah in a second. Sorry.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.999
I heard also that you, for out of solidarity
you don\'t take... Anti-retrovirals, yes.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.999
..drugs, yes.

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.999
[sil.]

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.999
with the government payroll. Except the

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.999
minister and the DG I\'m not... Just tell
me what is going on as we speak. None.

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.999
Who\'s talking to you? None. \'Cause the government lawyers disappeared.
Health department doesn\'t know. Health Department doesn\'t know a thing.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.999
They\'re just being told that we\'re talking. And
it\'s the first time that, probably the most

00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.999
powerful industrial lobby in
North America and Europe has

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.999
been momentarily halted by

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.999
public opinion and action. And you think
your interest into the court case has...

00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.999
No question. There\'s no question. If TAC had not been
in the court case, we wouldn\'t have got this far.

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.999
We wouldn\'t have got this far. Because not only
do we focus public attention on the case in a

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.999
manner that brought the
entire world\'s moral

00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.999
disapprovement against the drug companies,
but also legally we shored up the

00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.999
case fairly strongly for
the government, because...

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:53.000
[music]

00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.999
Zackie, what\'s your comment?
What\'s our comment?

00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.999
Here, outside.

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.999
And uh, we will be here to

00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:29.999
await for the decision. At this particular
stage we still want to make a call

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.999
to the PMA and all the
pharmaceutical companies behind

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.999
this particular case to withdraw
without any conditions.

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.999
You wouldn\'t expect the world\'s biggest
pharmaceutical companies to walk away

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.999
empty handed. What do you expect that the
government is giving up in these negotiations?

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.999
There is no question, there is absolutely no question,
that the world\'s biggest pharmaceutical companies have

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.999
taken on the wrong issue at
the wrong time, with the

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.999
wrong people. They\'re not on the
right side of the law, and they\'re

00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.999
certainly not on the moral right side, and from our side
all of us believe that the drug companies have made a big

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:14.999
mistake. And I hope that is what they\'re
realizing. So there\'s no question, and we ask

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.999
our government not to give anything away.
To stand by its legislation.

00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:28.000
[music]

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.999
drug companies, come after the
side of doing the right thing, and

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.999
also in their own economic self interests
of survival to do the right thing.

00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:53.000
[sil.]

00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.999
This is the guy, Zackie Achmat.
In with? That\'s 15, 16.

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.999
I\'m shocked. I think it
hasn\'t, not in my head and

00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.999
not in most people\'s heads has it,
if there\'s a withdrawal at all.

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.999
It\'s uh, 12 hours to it, and I\'m not even

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.999
what, 14 hours. How much can go wrong?

00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.999
[sil.]

00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.999
It\'s eight o\' clock good evening, and
welcome. In our top story, Government and the

00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.999
Pharmaceutical Manufacturers\' Association are expected
to reach a settlement - to reach a settlement

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.999
regarding the court case against the implementation against
the medicines and related substances controlled...

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.999
The Treatment Action Campaign and Labor
Federation Cosatu agree that multinational drug

00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.999
companies will be forced to back down.
LGO\'s such as Oxfam, the

00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.999
Treatment Action Campaign, and Doctors without
Borders say they are confident that the case...

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:13.000
[sil.]

00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:48.000
[music]

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.999
I think it\'s brilliant! Brilliant,
brilliant, brilliant! Congratulations.

00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.999
Congratulations. We feel brilliant.
The legislation is intact.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.999
No, there\'s a complete, there is a complete
withdrawal by the PMA. There\'s a complete withdrawal.

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.999
Nothing in the order of court says that there\'s a deal. It
says the companies are withdrawing. That\'s the order of

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.999
court.

00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:39.999
You have come to a journey, the end of a long journey.
And the beginning of a new one! That\'s right!

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.999
You also need a kiss. This is
pretty much your doing, boy.

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:49.999
Let me tell you something.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.999
Good afternoon, welcome to one o\'
clock live. I\'m Sally Burdett.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.999
News from around the country, around the world,
at lunch-time. In the headlines, drug companies

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.999
drop their lawsuit against the government. This is a win-win
situation for the government and the Treatment Action

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:09.999
Campaign. Not only has the case been
withdrawn, but the Pharmaceutical

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.999
Manufacturers\' Association has
agreed to pay legal costs.

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.999
They believe a major victory, representatives
of pharmaceutical companies appear withdrawn.

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:28.000
[music]

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.999
Absolutely soaking wet...

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:58.000
[music]

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.999
God bless mother nature,
she\'s a single woman...

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:23.000
[music]

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.999
Hallelujah, it\'s raining men. Raining men!

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:34.999
Hallelujah it\'s raining men...

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.999
I\'m just starting to feel
a bit better myself, now.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:44.999
Hey, hey, hey, hey.

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.999
Oh, superb. That\'s quite right.
Yeah, this is the right one.

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:54.999
Happy? Yeah. Should we
stick it up somewhere?

00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.999
Yeah. Thank you. It says the government
had no plans to make AIDS-fighting

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:04.999
anti-retroviral drugs genuinely
available in the public sector, said

00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:09.999
Health Minister Manto Tshabalala Msimang
yesterday. Speaking in her sleep,

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.999
she said in the National Assembly, that
her department\'s position on the use of

00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.999
anti-retrovirals in triple therapy for
the long term management of the disease

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:24.999
remain unchanged. ARV\'s
are not a cure for AIDS.

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:29.999
It\'s like a Shakespearean play. They
keep on saying they have no ideological

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.999
objection to using
anti-retrovirals and then say \'

00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:39.999
But we\'re not going to use it\'. Well the point is
we\'re meeting with the minister on Monday, so...

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:48.000
[sil.]

00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:59.999
Next time we come in, we sit in here.

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.999
[sil.]

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:09.999
DP offices... Good, by the way we must do something
against the DP. They also say \'no anti-retrovirals

00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:14.999
for treatment\'.

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:19.999
[music]

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.999
This Minister must resign. This minister must resign, that\'s
all. She doesn\'t know half the things she needs to know.

00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.999
You don\'t want to know.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.999
So tell us what happened, more or less? It was a
batting match between us. Batting in what way?

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.999
Bad batting. It was, let\'s talk
about it later. It was very cross.

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:44.999
We were very cross. It was a waste of time.
Complete waste of time.

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.999
Well, not complete, but complete.

00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:54.999
The meeting arose because the Treatment
Action Campaign had written a strongly

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:59.999
worded letter to the minister
expressing our unhappiness

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.999
at the delays of the government
in providing medicines to women

00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:09.999
that reduce the risk of children being
infected or babies being infected

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:14.999
with HIV. The Minister clearly represents
the viewpoints of the president; that

00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.999
HIV doesn\'t cause AIDS, and that the
anti-retrovirals are an experiment on black people.

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.999
Um, that\'s clearly what the minister\'s about.
And uh, there\'s no understanding, there\'s no

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:29.999
scientific understanding of TB, no scientific
understanding of the relation between HIV and

00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.999
TB. There\'s no understanding of how the healthcare
service works from the Minister of Health.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.999
Uh, you added doctor
saying \'I have women who

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:44.999
have HIV in my clinic, which
is a public sector hospital,

00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.999
and I know neverapine works scientifically, and
she knows. What must I tell her? Because if I

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.999
give it to her it\'s illegal.\' And the director,
the General of Health couldn\'t give her a

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:59.999
human answer. That is the state

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.999
in which the country\'s top officials
have been dumped in by the

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:09.999
minister, and by the president
particularly through the minister.

00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.999
And uh, I think, any form of action is

00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:19.999
justified against the
government on this issue.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:24.999
And welcome back, we are on the
record with president Thabo Mbeki.

00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.999
Mr. Mbeki, HIV-AIDS has dominated the headlines
in South Africa for the last two years, and

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.999
before that as well. Let\'s try and
bring this down to a personal level.

00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:39.999
Would you take an HIV-AIDS test?

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:44.999
Sitting where I sit,

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:49.999
as the President of South Africa,

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.999
I think that the deterrence
I face is to have

00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.999
all outstanding questions with
regard to this matter answered,

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.999
so that we are able to respond as
effectively as possible to the AIDS

00:49:05.000 --> 00:49:09.999
challenge. So the matter
of whether I\'d take

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:14.999
an HIV test or not I think is irrelevant to
the matter. It might be dramatic and make

00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:19.999
newspaper headlines. But would it not set an
example? The president taking an AIDS test.

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:24.999
No, but, it\'s setting an example
within the context of your particular

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.999
paradigm. Now I don\'t believe that stunts,

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.999
publicity stunts, help in addressing
the health needs of our people.

00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:39.999
Where if I... So anti-retrovirals...

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:44.999
I would think it was a, it would
be, a criminal dereliction of duty

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.999
if our government didn\'t
say \'How do we cope

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:54.999
with issues of the toxicity of these drugs?
Which is raised

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.999
very sharply by these US government
guidelines of the 5th of February. So,

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.999
do I go down the streets dispensing these
pins, knowing from the best science there is,

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:09.999
that there is consequence... The toxicity.
The president spoke about

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:14.999
toxicity, he says \'I\'ll be criminally
irresponsible to give out drugs, such as

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.999
anti-retrovirals because they\'re toxic\'. And he referred to
an American statement. The American statement by the CDC

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:24.999
made it very clear that the drugs work,
they need to be taken, but they include

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.999
activist demands in the United States for starting
the drugs later because it leaves your options

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:34.999
open, and for closer
monitoring of toxicity.

00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:39.999
We want medicines that are not going to
poison us. All of us want that. But, we

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.999
will have a problem with how the president
perceives the use of anti-retrovirals and

00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.999
whether HIV causes AIDS. It\'s important
that we understand that our biggest

00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:54.999
obstacle to medicines in the country is the
attitude of the president and the presidency.

00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:59.999
It\'s difficult to say that, but it is true.
If we don\'t face up to

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:04.999
that, we\'re not going to
face up to our challenge.

00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:09.999
It is sad that the leader of our government

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.999
is presiding over a holocaust
of poor people, and

00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.999
he\'s doing nothing about it. In fact,
he is deliberately obstructing.

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:24.999
Deliberately obstructing
treatment for people with

00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:29.999
HIV and AIDS. I am an ANC
member and I\'m ashamed that in

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.999
our party there is no one with

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:39.999
dignity, no one with courage in a
senior position, to stand up and

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.999
say \'You are wrong\' and to say,
and to lead within our party,

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.999
an opposition to this madness of the policy

00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:54.999
of our government on this issue.

00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:03.000
[music]

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:24.999
In the 1980\'s, those of us
who were active in politics,

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:29.999
every time you heard of someone being arrested, or
of the police moving in and breaking down people\'s

00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:34.999
houses, or of the government saying
something stupid, you just got angry.

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:39.999
You got angry beyond any

00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:44.999
control.

00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:49.999
And every time I hear

00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.999
government saying or doing something that\'s
just causing people to die, I feel that same

00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:59.999
sense of anger and frustration.
And except here, that was a

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:04.999
barbaric government of white domination.
This is a democratically elected government.

00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:09.999
You cannot but feel a deep, deep
sense of resentment and fear.

00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:14.999
Because the AIDS issue has become
much more than a health issue,

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:19.999
much more than a prevention issue. It has
actually become a test of governance.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.999
Is the President fit to rule?
Is the Minister of Health

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:29.999
fit to be a minister of health

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.999
[sil.]

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.999
Zackie there\'s just a couple of things.
The one is that strikes me, well...

00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:44.999
Do you want me to tell you what happened this morning?
Yes, please do, let\'s stick with the... I had breakfast,

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.999
which was pronutro, and I
took my vitamins, and I took,

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.999
swallowed. And I had cramps all the time. And
suddenly I got out of bed, I rushed to the

00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:59.999
bathroom, and for about ten minutes

00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:04.999
I was in the toilet shitting.

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:09.999
And the pain became so bad,
I had a moment, I had to

00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:14.999
lie down on the floor in the
bathroom and momentarily just lost

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.999
what felt like losing consciousness. You\'re
travelling too much, you\'re stressing yourself too

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.999
much. The other thing that we might
have to reconsider and we\'re sort of

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.999
getting closer to the issue is the
consideration of anti-retrovirals.

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.999
Okay, once again I don\'t think I lost blood count,
you\'re not in that sort of ball park yet. But

00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:39.999
definitely closer than when we started this about 18
months ago. So you have to, you have to give some

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.999
thought to that again. Um, and,

00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:49.999
I\'m just a bit worried as to... Our
president says it\'s toxic and poisonous.

00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:54.999
He\'s right. And criminal, it\'d be criminal
dereliction to give it to anyone.

00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:59.999
Cool, well I mean, they\'re welcome to risk me.
I mean, the bottom line is it is poisonous,

00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.999
but so is paracetamol. I mean all the stuff we put into our bodies
is poisonous. But Zackie man, I\'ve seen you on the TV at least

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:09.999
five times in the last three weeks, okay.
Talking about an illness that you are dying

00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:14.999
of. Fair enough?

00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:19.999
We\'ll talk about it. Ok, but
you hear what I\'m saying?

00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:24.999
Yeah. Ok, I know you and I agreed...
After the 20th of May.

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:29.999
No!

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:34.999
What\'s the 20th of May?

00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.999
Uh. We\'re busy doing a treatment plan.

00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:44.999
Uh, we\'re campaigning for the
government to adopt a treatment

00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:49.999
plan and start implementing it. But we know they\'re
not going to do it, so, we\'re doing our own version

00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:54.999
of it and getting the unions and
the employers to take it through

00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:59.999
Nedlac. Zackie if you die
in the process of this...

00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:04.999
Don\'t be so dramatic I\'m only... Why? Why not?
Why not be dramatic? I mean the bottom line

00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:09.999
is this is what this illness does to people. It\'s just going
to carry on, you\'re going to end up passing out in a bathroom

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:14.999
somewhere in Joburg or Durban or
something with the same thing again,

00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:19.999
and...

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:28.000
[sil.]

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.999
So Midi, have you seen Zackie today? I just
want to ask him... If you could turn around.

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:24.999
Mm? Oh I have, yeah, I just went upstairs just
to see if he\'s you know, awake or something.

00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:29.999
But he was fast asleep and I just
said \'Zackie how you doing?\' \'

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:34.999
I\'m fine\'. So, you could
see on his face you know,

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:39.999
he\'s got that tired look. So, yeah, he\'s...

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:48.000
[sil.]

00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:54.999
Not exactly any great
culinary skill involved.

00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:03.000
[sil.]

00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:34.999
If he\'s got fever inside that his turns is turning
so red... From uhh, antihistamine type reaction,

00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:39.999
allergic reaction, a side effect from the
pills. I think it is, I think it is.

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:44.999
We\'ll see.

00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:53.000
[sil.]

00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:59.999
We\'ve got a reactivation of the herpes
virus, and some lesions which are

00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.999
suggestive of a staphylococcal infection.
Folliculitis. And uh, those are fairly easy to

00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:09.999
treat, but it\'s just... you know we\'re
going to kick in with some drugs

00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:14.999
now and make sure they don\'t get any worse.
We\'re going to put you on some

00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:19.999
cyclavics generica, we\'re looking is the
cheapest one at the moment, and some

00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:24.999
erythromycin.

00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:29.999
[sil.]

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:34.999
How are you doing? All right, and you?

00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:43.000
[sil.]

01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:04.999
I\'m gonna go sleep. Get back into bed.

01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:09.999
I\'ll see you, see you later. I hope
you get a bit better. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:18.000
[sil.]

01:00:40.000 --> 01:00:44.999
No. Are you going to carry the mosbolletjie

01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:49.999
brot? I\'ll put them back in the fridge.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:58.000
[sil.]

01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:14.999
There\'s no juice here, damn it.

01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.999
Only a little bit, yeah, I see.

01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:24.999
Zack\'s up.

01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:29.999
Zackie, are we ready to get up?

01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.999
Ten past eleven. Been sick for a long time.

01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:39.999
It\'s almost three weeks now.

01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:44.999
You\'ve been sweating a bit here.

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:49.999
How are you feeling? Do you want to have a shower quickly?
So we\'re just gonna be a bit late for the doctor.

01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:54.999
Tea, please.

01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:59.999
Likes strong tea.

01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:04.999
[sil.]

01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:09.999
Have you heard that there\'s now a teleconference
proposal to discuss your state of

01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:14.999
health? But I think that\'s
important because schedules and

01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:19.999
things have to be looked at in the
light of it. And it\'s not unreal.

01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:24.999
With or without me? I should be with you.
I mean, it\'s going to be,

01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:29.999
it\'s asked if you would agree to it
because it\'s important. Last night?

01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:34.999
A good night. I, you know that I\'m very fluey
and I think I\'m going to pass it onto you,

01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:39.999
so this worries me a bit.

01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:44.999
Hi Reg, how you doing?

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:49.999
He\'s feeling a bit brighter this
morning but he\'s still not right,

01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:54.999
I mean, his tongue is full
of lumps and bumps and

01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:59.999
bits and... yeah. No he can\'t go,
no, but he\'s going to the doctor

01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:04.999
now. No he isn\'t right.

01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:09.999
I mean, that\'s the point. That\'s the whole

01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:14.999
point. Okay, so we\'ll see you later?

01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:23.000
[music]

01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:54.999
Let me just see Zackie first
and I\'ll ask him. Hello.

01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:59.999
How is it?

01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:04.999
Right, how are things going?
Mouth is, I think, 80% better.

01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:09.999
But it\'s still got some strange
things on it. Little bit,

01:04:10.000 --> 01:04:14.999
but not that much. Over the bottom lip,
things on the bottom lip, inside, gone.

01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:19.999
Not completely, but mostly.
They all look like this,

01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:24.999
and they were all on the bottom lip and...

01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:29.999
So they\'re almost gone. and on the tongue.
That is thrush, yes.

01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:34.999
Late last week, he started complaining of a bit of a
sore throat, and at first I thought it was just a sore

01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:39.999
throat. But it turned out
by two days later to be a

01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:44.999
resurgence of this thrush,
which he had last in

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:49.999
1999. So we\'ve had a good run, you
know, we went through the whole of

01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:54.999
2000 and up to now in 2001 without a
single serious health incident, really.

01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:59.999
As is so common with people with HIV, you know. And
then suddenly we had this complete breakdown of

01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:04.999
everything, and that is always the point you know. It\'s
that when, once opportunist infection takes root it lowers,

01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:09.999
it suppresses immunity even further, and then you
get another one and another one, and it can become

01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:14.999
quite a concatenation of things. Picking
up from a teleconference centre.. Yeah?

01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:19.999
You\'ve got a teleconference at 2 o\' clock, sir, can I put you
through? Yes, yes you can. Thank you very much. Thank you.

01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:24.999
Uh, (ph)Jackie\'s on, Zackie\'s on.

01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:29.999
Sharon is on. Nathan, Jack...
Can we go ahead?

01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:34.999
His friends and his colleagues and
his executive members of TAC,

01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:39.999
is having a teleconference this
afternoon discussing why he\'s

01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:44.999
taking that stance and if they won\'t be able to
change his mind because it\'s time for him to go on to

01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:49.999
anti-retrovirals. Well, uh, the first thing
I think I\'d like to thank everybody for the

01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:54.999
opportunity to have this discussion because
I think it is in the end a political and

01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:59.999
organizational issue as well. And my
decision to not take anti-retrovirals,

01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:04.999
it\'s a very difficult
decision for me to have made,

01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:09.999
because it uh, I can tell you just

01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:14.999
from the last few weeks when I couldn\'t speak
any my mouth was very sore, I very often wanted

01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:19.999
to say \'Maybe I should take medicine
so that this doesn\'t happen to me\'.

01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:24.999
But it didn\'t alter my understanding,
and one doesn\'t know when I

01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:29.999
become desperately sick, what my position will
be. So that\'s just a qualification on all

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:34.999
those things. But what has happened
is that our politics generally

01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:39.999
has become empty of any moral content.
HIV politics specifically,

01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:44.999
and at that time when I took the
decision, it was particularly empty of

01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:49.999
morale content. What you did have
is you had a lot of sentimentalism,

01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:54.999
where people feel sorry for you if you have HIV
and they\'ll hold your hand and cry with you,

01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:59.999
but that there was no action. And
at the same time there\'s a whole

01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:04.999
industry of people who survive on consultancy
fees and that whole range of things to keep the

01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:09.999
epidemic going. In addition
to which there were

01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:14.999
people who, people with HIV
were leaders were getting

01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:19.999
medicines from drug companies and from
government, and maintaining their quietness

01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:24.999
about other people, so, it was based on
the fact that there\'s no morality in

01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:29.999
politics. And for me personally,

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:34.999
I... in terms of people\'s, in

01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:39.999
terms of the majority of people with HIV; they
don\'t have a face, they don\'t have a political

01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:44.999
understanding, they\'re desperate,
they\'re poor, they\'re alone. And

01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:49.999
to advocate for their medicines
is a very difficult,

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:54.999
is a difficult task, to help them come
out is a difficult task, for all of us.

01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:59.999
That\'s all of our job. But me personally,
with HIV, as someone who could

01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:04.999
access medicines through friends
and through medical aidance on,

01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:09.999
for me I can\'t look them in the eye
when I take medicines and I know

01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:14.999
they\'re going to die because they can\'t
get medicines. And I cannot lead

01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:19.999
them if that is the case. So, my

01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:24.999
position is based on an
understanding that I

01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:29.999
want, I want the right to life for myself.
But I want the right to life,

01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:34.999
and I want the right to live
in a political community

01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:39.999
in which that right is
extended to every person.

01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:44.999
If such a political community does not exist
and the only reason that you die or you\'re

01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:49.999
allowed to die is because
you\'re poor, when you\'re sick,

01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:54.999
then I do not want to be part of such. On
a conscience basis and on a moral basis,

01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:59.999
I couldn\'t be part of such a community.

01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:04.999
Zackie. What are the chances that you
might change, you might start taking

01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:09.999
generic drugs if they are
important for you personally?

01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:14.999
You mean illegally. Yes. Taking them
on the basis that they\'re smuggled in

01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:19.999
through a defiant campaign is not a
satisfactory way of addressing that.

01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:24.999
Either you maintain this position and justify
it in the way that Zackie has done it,

01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:29.999
or we change the position and explain it.

01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:34.999
But there\'s no back door way around it. We
have a fear that if we lose a leader like

01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:39.999
Zackie, the entire company at this stage would
be jeopardized. Very unfair. We can\'t hold

01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:44.999
Zackie to ransom and say, well,
you know if you\'re not around

01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:49.999
TAC wouldn\'t function. It\'s our responsibility to make sure
it functions, and I think that\'s why we need to have that...

01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:54.999
It\'s a very strong stand.
And, my only criticism

01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:59.999
would be that if you\'re then going to take the stand and that
he was going to stick to it, then you have to go all the way

01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:04.999
and exploit it unmercifully, pulling on
every flipping emotional heartstring

01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:09.999
that you can get. Because to die in
silence or to get extremely sick to the

01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:14.999
point of death in silence while maintaining this superiorly
morale position, that would seem to me to be really

01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:19.999
throwing your life away. So then if it\'s going to be a
political campaign then it must be a political campaign,

01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:24.999
and it will be a very effective one.

01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:30.000
[non-English narration]

01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:49.999
Hello, hello Mark. Give me a shout when you
get a chance. I hope it went well this

01:10:50.000 --> 01:10:55.000
afternoon. (inaudible)

01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:08.000
[sil.]

01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:23.000
[music]

01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:29.999
And now I\'m going to start working, you see.
Should we not go to the chemist to get some...

01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:34.999
Yes, we must go get our... Stuff, and some...
thingies. I might decide to go to an eight o\' clock

01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:39.999
movie. Don\'t overdo it... Maybe if
I\'m late we can ask him... Just

01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:44.999
give it one more night, okay?
Give it one more night.

01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:49.999
Don\'t overdo it. It\'s
almost back to normal.

01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:54.999
Give it one more night of rest.

01:11:55.000 --> 01:12:00.000
[music]