When Memory Comes: A Film About Saul Friedlander
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- Reviews
- Citation
- Cataloging
- Transcript
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WHEN MEMORY COMES: A FILM ABOUT SAUL FRIEDLANDER is a visually arresting documentary that interweaves leading Holocaust historian Saul Friedlander's personal story of survival with an introduction to his work and thought.
Originally a political scientist, Friedlander avoided writing about the Holocaust until an exchange of letters with German historian Martin Broszat, during the 1980s. Broszat believed that victims are unable to write the history of the period in which they were victimized, because they are not objective enough. For Friedlander, subjectivity and personal interest in stories as not being a problem for historians-as long as they are clear on where they stand. 'There is a Jewish dimension to this history, and Jews can deal with it as objectively as anyone else,' he says in the film. Historians should 'accept subjectivity and even use it... very clearly and very explicitly.'
That realization would lead to his magnum opus, Nazi Germany and the Jews , and its follow-up, The Years of Extermination .
For Friedlander, the Shoah is unique, in that its intent was to wipe out an entire population whose very existence was a threat to the survival of the Aryan race. Standing among a set of propaganda posters, he points out that Nazis tended to refer not to Jews, but to 'the Jew'-an abstract principle whose cause had to be eliminated.
In contrast, Friedlander shares his own experience as a man who changed identities four times-first, when he moved as a child from Prague to France and had his name Francisized, then when he was hidden from the Nazis in a Catholic seminary and took a French, Christian name-and finally when he reclaimed his own identity as a Jew and Zionist. He also tells the heartbreaking story of how, in arranging for his safety, his parents unwittingly doomed themselves to death at Auschwitz.
This wide-ranging film looks at Friedlander's views on subjects ranging from anti-Semitism as a redemptive, to Jews' own lack of understanding of the scope of the Holocaust, to kitschy pop culture representations of the period.
Filmmaker Frank Diamand first met Friedlander more than 20 years ago, and is himself a Holocaust survivor. WHEN MEMORY COMES puts both Diamand and Friedlander on screen, and their presence together offers a the film a greater sense of immediacy and intimacy. This documentary is an excellent introduction to Friedlander's work and to the issues raised by Holocaust scholarship and historiography.
'Saul Friedlander [has] transformed our understanding of this period by weaving into a coherent whole the perspectives of ordinary Germans, party activists, military and political figures, and, most importantly, victims and survivors.' -The MacArthur Foundation
Citation
Main credits
Diamand, Frank (film director)
Diamand, Frank (interviewer)
Mendel, René (film producer)
Friedländer, Saul (interviewee)
Other credits
Photography, Melle van Essen; editing, Simone da Silva; sound recording, Piotr van Dijk.
Distributor subjects
Biographies; Closed Captioned; Historiography; History (World); Holocaust; Jewish Studies; World War IIKeywords
WEBVTT
00:00:00.626 --> 00:00:06.833
The Shoah can be narrated,
historically explained,
00:00:06.834 --> 00:00:08.541
conceptualized.
00:00:08.542 --> 00:00:10.791
Yes one could do all that.
00:00:10.792 --> 00:00:16.458
But that at the core
of such an extreme event
00:00:16.459 --> 00:00:21.208
of systematic extermination
of millions of people,
00:00:21.209 --> 00:00:26.666
with a kind of goal
of killing everybody
00:00:26.667 --> 00:00:31.208
and bringing people
from all sides of Europe
00:00:31.209 --> 00:00:35.998
and the German conquered world
00:00:35.999 --> 00:00:40.041
to places built only
00:00:40.042 --> 00:00:43.208
for the killing of human beings
00:00:43.209 --> 00:00:48.625
this had something at its core
00:00:48.626 --> 00:00:51.998
which was not incomprehensible,
00:00:51.999 --> 00:00:57.875
but which created
a reaction of disbelief
00:00:57.876 --> 00:01:01.958
the first time
or every time you faced it.
00:01:01.959 --> 00:01:04.750
Something in your belly
00:01:04.751 --> 00:01:07.708
which said but this can not be.
00:01:07.709 --> 00:01:11.541
And then you give
the historical explanation,
00:01:11.542 --> 00:01:16.208
so my aim was
00:01:16.209 --> 00:01:17.625
when I started
00:01:17.626 --> 00:01:20.333
to think about
writing this history
00:01:20.334 --> 00:01:24.166
to write this integrated history
00:01:24.167 --> 00:01:28.208
with all the angles,
00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:31.374
particularly putting
the victims\" voices
00:01:31.375 --> 00:01:32.458
into this history,
00:01:32.459 --> 00:01:33.998
the perspective of the victims,
00:01:33.999 --> 00:01:36.666
but also of the onlookers
of surroundings
00:01:36.667 --> 00:01:39.998
of course the perpetrators,
the whole machinery.
00:01:39.999 --> 00:01:42.998
To write all this according
to all the rules
00:01:42.999 --> 00:01:47.750
of historical narration
00:01:47.751 --> 00:01:49.998
and at the same time
00:01:49.999 --> 00:01:54.998
manage to create in the reader
00:01:54.999 --> 00:01:58.750
these moments of disbelief.
00:01:58.751 --> 00:02:06.751
♪
00:05:03.250 --> 00:05:11.250
♪
00:05:18.459 --> 00:05:22.500
Friedlaänder was originally
a political scientist,
00:05:22.501 --> 00:05:23.998
not a historian.
00:05:23.999 --> 00:05:26.917
His thesis dealt
with Hitler\"s foreign policy
00:05:26.918 --> 00:05:29.998
vis à vis
the United States till 1941,
00:05:29.999 --> 00:05:32.791
when the U.S. entered the war.
00:05:32.792 --> 00:05:34.458
Researching in the archives
00:05:34.459 --> 00:05:36.917
of the German Foreign Ministry
in Bonn,
00:05:36.918 --> 00:05:39.166
he came across
a misfiled document,
00:05:39.167 --> 00:05:41.625
that would change
the course of his life.
00:05:41.626 --> 00:05:45.458
The book that ensued
made him famous.
00:05:45.459 --> 00:05:49.998
I discovered a diplomatic...
A German diplomatic document
00:05:49.999 --> 00:05:54.666
telling of an invitation
by Pope Pius XII
00:05:54.667 --> 00:05:58.708
to the Berlin Opera
who was coming to Rome
00:05:58.709 --> 00:06:02.041
to come to his Papal apartments
00:06:02.042 --> 00:06:06.998
to perform scenes
out of Parsival.
00:06:06.999 --> 00:06:09.541
It was December \"41.
00:06:09.542 --> 00:06:15.708
And so I found this
absolutely strange,
00:06:15.709 --> 00:06:17.625
not to say, shocking
00:06:17.626 --> 00:06:19.958
that the Pope could
invite the Berlin Opera
00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:25.124
to perform Parsival in his
apartments in December 1941
00:06:25.125 --> 00:06:28.208
when all the horror
of the Eastern Front
00:06:28.209 --> 00:06:30.583
was already known,
00:06:30.584 --> 00:06:33.875
in part at least
in Rome as well.
00:06:33.876 --> 00:06:41.876
♪
00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.875
This led me to ask
for the Vatican files.
00:06:53.876 --> 00:07:00.625
Which became a book \"Pius XII
and the Third Reich\" in 1964,
00:07:00.626 --> 00:07:03.998
I felt that here
I was suddenly doing
00:07:03.999 --> 00:07:09.291
something which fitted my,
00:07:09.292 --> 00:07:10.998
how could I say,
00:07:10.999 --> 00:07:15.625
this was fitting to me much
more than political science,
00:07:15.626 --> 00:07:18.999
much more than
my previous inquiries.
00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:21.041
I was suddenly dans mon element
00:07:21.042 --> 00:07:22.998
you would say in French.
00:07:22.999 --> 00:07:30.999
♪
00:08:31.250 --> 00:08:33.791
Friedlaänder teaches
that for a historian
00:08:33.792 --> 00:08:35.998
it is not a sin to be subjective
00:08:35.999 --> 00:08:39.541
as long as he or she knows
where they stand,
00:08:39.542 --> 00:08:41.541
that personal involvement
can even be
00:08:41.542 --> 00:08:45.208
a positive element in that case.
00:08:45.209 --> 00:08:46.999
What is true for historians
00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:48.998
is also true for filmmakers
00:08:48.999 --> 00:08:52.541
and as you\"ll see I have
a personal vested interest
00:08:52.542 --> 00:08:54.250
in making this film.
00:09:01.042 --> 00:09:03.875
So 44 years ago
when we first met
00:09:03.876 --> 00:09:06.374
I interviewed you
about Pope Pius
00:09:06.375 --> 00:09:12.791
but we also talked about how
you survived the war in France
00:09:12.792 --> 00:09:15.208
in the convent as a child,
00:09:15.209 --> 00:09:19.998
and I in the camps,
in Westerbork and Bergen Belsen,
00:09:19.999 --> 00:09:23.458
I\"ll take those places in France
00:09:23.459 --> 00:09:24.334
but as you are in Amsterdam
00:09:24.335 --> 00:09:28.791
I take you to my place
of memory as well.
00:09:28.792 --> 00:09:29.999
This was the assembly point...
00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:30.834
For Westerbork.
00:09:30.835 --> 00:09:34.998
For Westerbork from which
we went to Auschwitz, Poland.
00:09:34.999 --> 00:09:41.416
Or Bergen Belsen.
00:09:41.417 --> 00:09:45.998
But you were very young.
00:09:45.999 --> 00:09:47.249
I was four.
00:09:47.250 --> 00:09:47.999
Four.
00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:51.166
Weren\"t you put
then on the other side
00:09:51.167 --> 00:09:54.374
in a place called La Crèche.
00:09:54.375 --> 00:09:57.666
I was in that crèche,
00:09:57.667 --> 00:10:00.416
my parents
00:10:00.417 --> 00:10:03.998
were taken at night
00:10:03.999 --> 00:10:05.666
and they hid me,
00:10:05.667 --> 00:10:08.998
and the Germans came
back at dawn for me.
00:10:08.999 --> 00:10:11.999
When they came
my parents were already
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.917
on their way to Westerbork.
00:10:14.918 --> 00:10:16.998
I was sick so they
put me in that crèche
00:10:16.999 --> 00:10:18.541
and I stay there for,
00:10:18.542 --> 00:10:21.708
I think, a few weeks,
I don\"t know exactly.
00:10:21.709 --> 00:10:23.958
I was ill,
I was taken to a doctor,
00:10:23.959 --> 00:10:28.791
somebody else was
taken hostage in my stead.
00:10:28.792 --> 00:10:31.625
Then I was taken to Westerbork.
00:10:31.626 --> 00:10:39.626
♪
00:10:43.834 --> 00:10:46.998
The victims were
really the last ones
00:10:46.999 --> 00:10:51.249
to understand their fate
and this was so
00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:56.458
while the others
in many countries
00:10:56.459 --> 00:10:57.998
were well aware
00:10:57.999 --> 00:11:00.998
and this then came
into the newspapers
00:11:00.999 --> 00:11:03.500
in Germany from \"43 on,
00:11:03.501 --> 00:11:05.999
that the Jews were
being exterminated.
00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:07.958
But the Jews themselves
didn\"t understand,
00:11:07.959 --> 00:11:12.541
which explains the smooth...
In part the lack of resistance,
00:11:12.542 --> 00:11:14.998
which in any case
was impossible,
00:11:14.999 --> 00:11:17.416
but still the added passivity
00:11:17.417 --> 00:11:20.917
which has always been
a kind of troubling question
00:11:20.918 --> 00:11:25.082
and secondly explains
the smoothness of the process,
00:11:25.083 --> 00:11:26.998
this was a smooth process,
00:11:26.999 --> 00:11:32.541
without any difficulty
except finding the right trains.
00:11:32.542 --> 00:11:40.542
♪
00:11:48.292 --> 00:11:50.625
To write an integrated history
of the Shoah
00:11:50.626 --> 00:11:52.791
was considered more
or less impossible
00:11:52.792 --> 00:11:55.998
to everyone,
Friedlaänder included.
00:11:55.999 --> 00:11:56.876
Then in the \"80s,
00:11:56.877 --> 00:11:59.998
respected German historian
professor Martin Broszat
00:11:59.999 --> 00:12:02.416
wrote an article
saying it was time
00:12:02.417 --> 00:12:03.791
to end the moralist approach
00:12:03.792 --> 00:12:06.791
to the historiography
of the Third Reich.
00:12:06.792 --> 00:12:09.291
He put an emphasis
on the normality
00:12:09.292 --> 00:12:11.998
of daily life
during the Nazi period.
00:12:11.999 --> 00:12:16.374
It should be treated like any
other period of German history.
00:12:16.375 --> 00:12:20.082
Friedlaänder rejected this
approach as it marginalized
00:12:20.083 --> 00:12:23.249
the extermination
of the Jews of Europe.
00:12:23.250 --> 00:12:25.917
A public exchange
of letters ensued.
00:12:25.918 --> 00:12:27.917
And in his first letter
Broszat wrote
00:12:27.918 --> 00:12:31.958
something Friedlaänder
could hardly believe:
00:12:31.959 --> 00:12:36.374
\"The victims,
the Jews and their descendants,
00:12:36.375 --> 00:12:38.998
and their descendant
were really unable...
00:12:38.999 --> 00:12:44.958
Are really unable to deal
objectively with this history
00:12:44.959 --> 00:12:46.291
because of their...
00:12:46.292 --> 00:12:49.208
Because they carry
the burden of the past
00:12:49.209 --> 00:12:53.374
in such a subjective way that
they are really the guardians
00:12:53.375 --> 00:12:55.999
if you wish
of a mythical memory,\"
00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.666
and that was the famous sentence
the mythical memory,
00:12:59.667 --> 00:13:02.958
\"but they are an obstacle
00:13:02.959 --> 00:13:06.458
to a more rational
German historiography.\"
00:13:06.459 --> 00:13:09.208
Well that really was for me
00:13:09.209 --> 00:13:11.209
the Schlusstrich in a sense.
00:13:12.209 --> 00:13:14.875
I had no choice but to answer,
00:13:14.876 --> 00:13:17.041
to ask whether
those who had been
00:13:17.042 --> 00:13:20.500
in the Hitler Youth
and in the Wehrmacht,
00:13:20.501 --> 00:13:24.998
I did not know also in the party
as Broszat was actually
00:13:24.999 --> 00:13:26.500
but that I did not
know at the time
00:13:26.501 --> 00:13:32.249
and nobody knew it except after
his death it was discovered,
00:13:32.250 --> 00:13:35.666
and or had been
in various Nazi organizations
00:13:35.667 --> 00:13:39.999
weren\"t burdened by, also by
quite a heavy subjectivity?
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:44.041
So this in a way started,
for me, at least the idea
00:13:44.042 --> 00:13:50.500
now we or I will
do it if need be.
00:13:50.501 --> 00:13:51.999
We have to show that there
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.791
is a Jewish dimension
to this history
00:13:55.792 --> 00:14:02.166
and that the victims
can deal with objectively
00:14:02.167 --> 00:14:05.500
with those same years
as much as anybody else
00:14:05.501 --> 00:14:08.541
and that actually
anybody can deal
00:14:08.542 --> 00:14:12.998
objectively with that
past when that person,
00:14:12.999 --> 00:14:16.166
that historian becomes
aware of the place
00:14:16.167 --> 00:14:20.208
where he or she stands,
from where you are speaking.
00:14:20.209 --> 00:14:24.124
From where and then
accept your subjectivity
00:14:24.125 --> 00:14:26.082
and even use it, to a point,
00:14:26.083 --> 00:14:28.291
in your way of writing history,
00:14:28.292 --> 00:14:30.124
in your way
of choosing the material
00:14:30.125 --> 00:14:35.291
and so on but very clearly
and very explicitly.
00:14:35.292 --> 00:14:43.292
♪
00:15:01.999 --> 00:15:03.875
The representation of the Shoah
00:15:03.876 --> 00:15:08.998
was and is an essentially
preoccupation of Friedlaänder\"s.
00:15:08.999 --> 00:15:11.249
In 1982 he wrote a book about it
00:15:11.250 --> 00:15:15.124
\"Reflections of Nazism,
an essay on Kitsch and Death\".
00:15:15.125 --> 00:15:20.998
There was a \"Hitler-Welle\",
a Hitler wave in the \"70s,
00:15:20.999 --> 00:15:25.625
Coming after the revolution,
the rebellion of the \"60s,
00:15:25.626 --> 00:15:31.124
came the Hitler wave
not necessarily as a reaction,
00:15:31.125 --> 00:15:34.917
maybe even as a continuation,
of the 1970s.
00:15:34.918 --> 00:15:40.583
You had Joachim Fest\"s biography
of Hitler,
00:15:40.584 --> 00:15:43.917
which the turned into a film,
as you may know,
00:15:43.918 --> 00:15:45.082
\"Hitler, eine Karriere\"
00:15:45.083 --> 00:15:49.291
and where actually you
had a Titanic, kind of,
00:15:49.292 --> 00:15:55.208
rise to the summits of power
and then a Lucifer fall,
00:15:55.209 --> 00:15:58.833
but the impression
is \"UÜbermenslich\"
00:15:58.834 --> 00:16:04.541
and where the atrocities
were a splinter,
00:16:04.542 --> 00:16:07.416
the atrocities that
is the extermination.
00:16:07.417 --> 00:16:09.541
You had that,
you had Lili Marlene,
00:16:09.542 --> 00:16:13.833
you had the various films
of Fassbinder,
00:16:13.834 --> 00:16:18.291
you had, of course, Syberberg,
00:16:18.292 --> 00:16:24.625
in a way you had Visconti
\"The Damned\" that is,
00:16:24.626 --> 00:16:28.458
the film on the Nazis
as an element of that.
00:16:28.459 --> 00:16:31.750
I spoke at the time
of a new discourse,
00:16:31.751 --> 00:16:35.999
a new... totally new discourse
about Nazism
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:41.998
without the ethical,
let us say, limits of...
00:16:41.999 --> 00:16:43.750
I wouldn\"t say something
was forbidden
00:16:43.751 --> 00:16:48.833
but of bon ton,of really
stopping at some limits.
00:16:48.834 --> 00:16:50.998
I didn\"t understand then that
00:16:50.999 --> 00:16:54.791
I was really describing
the word which means...
00:16:54.792 --> 00:16:57.998
Doesn\"t mean much:
simply postmodernist.
00:16:57.999 --> 00:17:02.541
Postmodernist playful art
of dealing with Nazi reality,
00:17:02.542 --> 00:17:06.666
but also based
on a kind of nostalgia.
00:17:06.667 --> 00:17:08.999
(yelling in foreign language)
00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.541
♪
00:17:14.542 --> 00:17:16.791
The work of these writers
and filmmakers
00:17:16.792 --> 00:17:19.875
Friedlaänder refers
to were permeated
00:17:19.876 --> 00:17:22.917
with the fascination
with the magic and myth
00:17:22.918 --> 00:17:25.708
of the Hitler movement.
00:17:25.709 --> 00:17:28.999
He feared that the aesthetics
of a film like this
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:32.583
\"Our Hitler, a film
from Germany\" by Syberberg
00:17:32.584 --> 00:17:36.124
would rekindle the fascination
with the Nazi era.
00:17:36.125 --> 00:17:38.708
(singing in foreign language)
00:17:38.709 --> 00:17:41.458
♪
00:17:41.459 --> 00:17:43.999
I knew Syberberg...
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.583
I say I knew
because it is years now,
00:17:47.584 --> 00:17:48.250
and I said him
00:17:48.251 --> 00:17:52.125
you know by trying to... to...
00:17:54.209 --> 00:18:00.583
To use the... aesthetic means
00:18:00.584 --> 00:18:04.708
to recapture
the sensation of the times
00:18:04.709 --> 00:18:10.249
you are not doing anything
for historical reality,
00:18:10.250 --> 00:18:12.791
because the concentration
of the means
00:18:12.792 --> 00:18:14.374
you use on the screen,
00:18:14.375 --> 00:18:20.998
is very different from
a critical eye on the reality,
00:18:20.999 --> 00:18:24.249
but you try to mesmerize
the public again.
00:18:24.250 --> 00:18:26.999
And he answered, once at least,
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.833
\"but it was mesmerizing\"
00:18:29.834 --> 00:18:32.291
\"es war ja fascinierend\"
00:18:32.292 --> 00:18:35.541
Another element
of the book was your fear
00:18:35.542 --> 00:18:38.625
of trivialization of the Shoah.
00:18:38.626 --> 00:18:42.750
Shall we look at some
film examples of that.
00:18:42.751 --> 00:18:44.124
Yes of course.
00:18:44.125 --> 00:18:47.124
Okay, Sigrid, go ahead.
00:18:47.125 --> 00:18:47.999
I am only a Sergeant,
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.333
I can\"t go poking my nose
into SS Head Quarters
00:18:50.334 --> 00:18:52.333
But just to find out
where Karl is,
00:18:52.334 --> 00:18:53.334
that isn\"t too much to ask.
00:18:53.335 --> 00:18:56.333
Inge, Herr Muüller can\"t
stick his neck out...
00:18:56.334 --> 00:19:01.666
Say it, for my Jewish husband.
00:19:01.667 --> 00:19:03.750
I am pretty sure
he went to Buchenwald.
00:19:03.751 --> 00:19:04.292
Buchenwald.
00:19:04.293 --> 00:19:07.666
A civilian prison near Weimar,
it isn\"t so bad.
00:19:07.667 --> 00:19:08.998
At least that what I hear.
00:19:08.999 --> 00:19:11.708
Can I get to see him?
00:19:11.709 --> 00:19:12.542
Can I write?
00:19:12.542 --> 00:19:13.334
Write maybe.
00:19:13.334 --> 00:19:14.292
Don\"t say I told you.
00:19:14.293 --> 00:19:19.291
Inge, I like your parents,
I like you.
00:19:19.292 --> 00:19:20.998
So far there is nothing
in the regulations
00:19:20.999 --> 00:19:22.583
against you for marrying a Jew,
00:19:22.584 --> 00:19:27.249
but my advice is:
leave him alone.
00:19:27.250 --> 00:19:28.125
Good advice.
00:19:28.126 --> 00:19:30.249
Yes, Muüller is right.
00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:34.082
When I think of all
that fancy family of his,
00:19:34.083 --> 00:19:36.416
a doctor, the wife,
00:19:36.417 --> 00:19:39.374
all your marriage did
was bring trouble.
00:19:39.375 --> 00:19:40.125
Stop it.
00:19:40.126 --> 00:19:41.750
I won\"t let you talk that way.
00:19:41.751 --> 00:19:43.374
I have a right to be mad.
00:19:43.375 --> 00:19:44.998
Taking this family in.
00:19:44.999 --> 00:19:45.999
Stop it.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.458
It is a bad business
hiding Jews.
00:19:48.459 --> 00:19:53.416
Herr Muüller, I beg of you,
can I get a letter to him?
00:19:53.417 --> 00:19:55.583
Could he buy his way out?
00:19:55.584 --> 00:19:57.917
Rich Jews some times,
00:19:57.918 --> 00:20:02.875
but a poor artist
like your man, no.
00:20:02.876 --> 00:20:04.208
Please help me.
00:20:04.209 --> 00:20:07.458
Muüller don\"t get yourself
into trouble for one of them.
00:20:07.459 --> 00:20:09.999
It \"s bad enough we\" ve got
them living next door.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.917
I am disgusted with all of you.
00:20:11.918 --> 00:20:16.500
I want that Jew bitch
and her kids out.
00:20:16.501 --> 00:20:21.875
No, They are my family.
00:20:21.876 --> 00:20:22.459
We warned her.
00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:26.124
A beautiful Aryan girl
like that, mixed up with Jews.
00:20:26.125 --> 00:20:27.208
It\"s Hollywood.
00:20:27.209 --> 00:20:32.166
It\"s quintessential Hollywood
of the late \"70s,
00:20:32.167 --> 00:20:35.291
I mean \"Schindler\"s List\"
was Hollywood as well,
00:20:35.292 --> 00:20:37.791
but a more
sophisticated Hollywood.
00:20:37.792 --> 00:20:42.166
Here it is really the first time
by the way I think,
00:20:42.167 --> 00:20:47.500
but strangely enough...
00:20:47.501 --> 00:20:50.333
it is not only the first time,
00:20:50.334 --> 00:20:54.208
it created a sensation
all over the world.
00:20:54.209 --> 00:20:58.291
I mean it came after another
series called \"Roots\"
00:20:58.292 --> 00:21:02.875
on Black Americans
00:21:02.876 --> 00:21:08.374
and slavery and so on,
00:21:08.375 --> 00:21:12.998
the black experience in America.
00:21:12.999 --> 00:21:14.998
And \"Roots\" was very
successful so they went
00:21:14.999 --> 00:21:17.998
for the next group
of victims let\"s say.
00:21:17.999 --> 00:21:21.791
The result is painful to watch
00:21:21.792 --> 00:21:27.998
because of... of... of
the kitschiness of it,
00:21:27.999 --> 00:21:29.291
but at the time
00:21:29.292 --> 00:21:32.291
and it became clear
to me over the years,
00:21:32.292 --> 00:21:35.374
this was a defining event.
00:21:35.375 --> 00:21:39.998
That is for the first time
huge numbers of people
00:21:39.999 --> 00:21:45.751
became aware of
the extermination of the Jews.
00:21:47.709 --> 00:21:53.083
Well as ridiculously as it
was represented in this film.
00:21:56.584 --> 00:21:57.998
It moved the hearts
00:21:57.999 --> 00:22:02.082
of many millions
00:22:02.083 --> 00:22:02.999
in the States,
00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:07.998
in Germany, and all over
at least the Western world.
00:22:07.999 --> 00:22:11.082
And they suddenly
heard of something,
00:22:11.083 --> 00:22:14.708
at least they pretended
never having heard of it.
00:22:14.709 --> 00:22:19.374
In Germany it was shown by
a minor channel,
00:22:19.375 --> 00:22:21.124
Channel Three I think,
00:22:21.125 --> 00:22:26.416
and when the broadcasting
started,
00:22:26.417 --> 00:22:30.998
when the film went on
00:22:30.999 --> 00:22:33.998
suddenly the whole of Germany
00:22:33.999 --> 00:22:36.998
awake... awoke to something
00:22:36.999 --> 00:22:39.374
they said they
had never heard of.
00:22:39.375 --> 00:22:43.416
And millions were calling
00:22:43.417 --> 00:22:45.998
the headquarters of the channel
00:22:45.999 --> 00:22:50.583
and the telephone exchange
broke down
00:22:50.584 --> 00:22:53.708
and debates among historians
00:22:53.709 --> 00:22:55.998
started then onscreen
00:22:55.999 --> 00:22:58.666
to explain what
people were seeing
00:22:58.667 --> 00:23:01.998
and didn\"t know what
they were seeing.
00:23:01.999 --> 00:23:05.249
So actually it even started
historical research,
00:23:05.250 --> 00:23:07.166
as crazy as it sounds.
00:23:07.167 --> 00:23:11.249
And it is a turning point
in the awareness
00:23:11.250 --> 00:23:14.333
of the extermination of the Jews
00:23:14.334 --> 00:23:16.917
among the wider public.
00:23:16.918 --> 00:23:24.918
♪
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.998
Do you have, apart
from all the bad memories,
00:24:00.999 --> 00:24:05.458
also have any good memories
from the period of Néris?
00:24:05.459 --> 00:24:06.000
Oh yes.
00:24:06.001 --> 00:24:11.333
We spent a lot of time
together and I...
00:24:11.334 --> 00:24:16.666
There were moments of, yeah,
00:24:16.667 --> 00:24:20.791
of great warmth, of love.
00:24:20.792 --> 00:24:24.291
I mean I used to go
with my father
00:24:24.292 --> 00:24:28.666
to buy milk with peasants,
00:24:28.667 --> 00:24:29.999
as long as this was possible
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:35.998
or we went to look
for champignons
00:24:35.999 --> 00:24:39.998
or I went with my
mother either watching her
00:24:39.999 --> 00:24:42.416
when she did her
beautician\"s work
00:24:42.417 --> 00:24:45.999
or going with her
when she did clean the homes
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:50.416
or going with her
to work the gardens
00:24:50.417 --> 00:24:52.416
and so this all remains,
00:24:52.417 --> 00:24:53.999
I remember also sitting with her
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.917
and watching the rain just so
00:24:57.918 --> 00:25:05.918
and talking about what ever.
00:25:28.042 --> 00:25:31.542
Yeah, my parents are there.
00:25:33.751 --> 00:25:35.124
Yeah.
00:25:35.125 --> 00:25:37.166
Mort en deportation.
00:25:37.167 --> 00:25:41.333
Friedlaänder, Hans or Jan,
I don\"t how they...
00:25:41.334 --> 00:25:42.917
And Friedlaänder Elly.
00:25:42.918 --> 00:25:45.291
You\"ll get closer shots.
00:25:45.292 --> 00:25:46.958
Yeah, it\"s there?
00:25:46.959 --> 00:25:49.917
Oh yeah.
00:25:49.918 --> 00:25:54.708
Friedlaänder, Jan,
yes was the Czech way,
00:25:54.709 --> 00:25:56.791
he went under Hans usually
00:25:56.792 --> 00:26:01.666
but Jan and Elly indeed.
00:26:01.667 --> 00:26:04.124
Frenkel, whom I mention,
00:26:04.125 --> 00:26:08.750
Walter Frenkel.
00:26:08.751 --> 00:26:10.999
No the others,
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:13.208
I don\"t remember the names.
00:26:13.209 --> 00:26:15.666
I remember other Jewish families
00:26:15.667 --> 00:26:20.334
but French and therefore
who survived.
00:26:27.334 --> 00:26:28.416
They were very close,
00:26:28.417 --> 00:26:32.541
my parents and Frenkel
were extremely close
00:26:32.542 --> 00:26:36.416
so to have them,
because of the alphabet,
00:26:36.417 --> 00:26:37.998
together, in a way,
00:26:37.999 --> 00:26:44.500
is particularly
appropriate and moving.
00:26:44.501 --> 00:26:46.998
Yeah.
00:26:46.999 --> 00:26:54.999
♪
00:26:55.083 --> 00:26:58.998
When the deportation started
from Vichy, France,
00:26:58.999 --> 00:27:04.625
as you know foreign Jews
were deported from Vichy, France
00:27:04.626 --> 00:27:08.998
in the summer of \"42
after the Jews, foreign Jews,
00:27:08.999 --> 00:27:12.833
had been deported from Paris,
those who were caught,
00:27:12.834 --> 00:27:18.750
to Drancy as there were
not enough in the...
00:27:18.751 --> 00:27:23.458
According to Eichman\"s plans
of filling the trains,
00:27:23.459 --> 00:27:25.875
the foreign Jews
of the Vichy zone
00:27:25.876 --> 00:27:30.500
were deported with the help
of the French police...
00:27:30.501 --> 00:27:32.458
Actually it was
only French police.
00:27:32.459 --> 00:27:35.708
Then my parents,
in desperation really,
00:27:35.709 --> 00:27:41.333
with the help of one of my
father\"s students of German,
00:27:41.334 --> 00:27:45.458
a French lady
who took care of me
00:27:45.459 --> 00:27:47.583
indirectly then all the time
00:27:47.584 --> 00:27:53.541
after that,
Madame Macé de Lépinay
00:27:53.542 --> 00:27:56.791
got in touch
with a Catholic seminary
00:27:56.792 --> 00:28:01.208
and a priest came...
00:28:01.209 --> 00:28:02.917
took me,
00:28:02.918 --> 00:28:04.625
I was then...
00:28:04.626 --> 00:28:06.998
I entered that
place in Montluçon
00:28:06.999 --> 00:28:10.125
nearby a somewhat larger city.
00:28:13.292 --> 00:28:14.998
\"The Abbé Bonnet,
00:28:14.999 --> 00:28:17.998
an old priest
with white crewcut hair
00:28:17.999 --> 00:28:22.833
and enormous glasses
concealing almost blind eyes
00:28:22.834 --> 00:28:25.208
came to Néris to get me.
00:28:25.209 --> 00:28:30.583
This gentle, affectionate
man was taking me
00:28:30.584 --> 00:28:33.750
off to an entirely new world.
00:28:33.751 --> 00:28:36.416
To the strictest Catholicism,
00:28:36.417 --> 00:28:37.998
to an almost royalist,
00:28:37.999 --> 00:28:42.917
ferociously pro-Petain,
and anti-Semitic France.
00:28:42.918 --> 00:28:45.917
To the ladies of the Sodality,
00:28:45.918 --> 00:28:48.041
who were going to save a soul,
00:28:48.042 --> 00:28:51.833
but who were also
taking serious risks
00:28:51.834 --> 00:28:54.666
because the soul
they were saving
00:28:54.667 --> 00:28:58.583
was that of a Jewish child.\"
00:28:58.584 --> 00:29:06.041
♪
00:29:06.042 --> 00:29:10.583
This place, I mean,
was for me a horror, not that...
00:29:10.584 --> 00:29:13.374
I mean, I was safe there.
00:29:13.375 --> 00:29:14.999
I got so sick
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.625
to see my parents
I fled the place.
00:29:18.626 --> 00:29:23.750
I stood by the main door,
00:29:23.751 --> 00:29:28.875
the main gate by the street
00:29:28.876 --> 00:29:32.998
and I waited until...
00:29:32.999 --> 00:29:35.998
Until those walking
00:29:35.999 --> 00:29:39.291
around were for a moment away,
00:29:39.292 --> 00:29:41.541
was on the street.
00:29:41.542 --> 00:29:42.375
And I found...
00:29:42.376 --> 00:29:44.041
I knew probably that my parents
00:29:44.042 --> 00:29:46.998
were in the hospital
in that city,
00:29:46.999 --> 00:29:48.833
they were hiding there,
00:29:48.834 --> 00:29:50.333
but I found them.
00:29:50.334 --> 00:29:55.124
I asked and I was directed
to a room where they were.
00:29:55.125 --> 00:29:59.124
My father was indeed
very ill with the ulcer
00:29:59.125 --> 00:30:02.583
and my mother was pretending
00:30:02.584 --> 00:30:04.416
some illness I forgot what
00:30:04.417 --> 00:30:07.500
but the physicians knew
00:30:07.501 --> 00:30:10.875
that this was to hide not...
00:30:10.876 --> 00:30:11.709
That my father was ill
00:30:11.710 --> 00:30:14.708
but that my mother
was there with him
00:30:14.709 --> 00:30:17.041
and both were hiding.
00:30:17.042 --> 00:30:20.666
And then, they had no choice,
00:30:20.667 --> 00:30:23.998
I mean this last scene is...
00:30:23.999 --> 00:30:28.500
Is the thing I will certainly...
00:30:28.501 --> 00:30:33.208
As long as I live this is
something I won\"t forget.
00:30:33.209 --> 00:30:39.041
But in any case my...
00:30:39.042 --> 00:30:43.124
parents called the seminary
00:30:43.125 --> 00:30:46.791
and two nuns came this time
00:30:46.792 --> 00:30:50.583
and took me by force practically
00:30:50.584 --> 00:30:55.166
because I tried to not...
00:30:55.167 --> 00:30:57.374
I mean I held the bed,
00:30:57.375 --> 00:31:01.416
but I was not yet ten,
00:31:01.417 --> 00:31:07.584
and... and that is
how we separated.
00:31:08.292 --> 00:31:16.292
♪
00:31:43.334 --> 00:31:45.625
I decided I would try to write
00:31:45.626 --> 00:31:49.541
a history of the Shoah
from A to Z
00:31:49.542 --> 00:31:51.998
that is from the persecution
00:31:51.999 --> 00:31:56.998
starting
with Hitler\"s rise to power
00:31:56.999 --> 00:31:59.998
and of course a few,
00:31:59.999 --> 00:32:02.166
also pages on the background,
00:32:02.167 --> 00:32:04.291
but the background had been...
00:32:04.292 --> 00:32:06.541
And then going to the very end,
00:32:06.542 --> 00:32:09.998
but with one central idea
00:32:09.999 --> 00:32:15.374
apart from the history
which is usually written,
00:32:15.375 --> 00:32:17.998
and that central idea was
00:32:17.999 --> 00:32:21.791
that the victim\"s voice,
00:32:21.792 --> 00:32:24.999
or the victims\" voices,
the Jewish voices,
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.208
under in all phases
and throughout Europe,
00:32:29.209 --> 00:32:34.998
not only in Germany,
had to be not only heard
00:32:34.999 --> 00:32:39.998
but had to be an integrated
element in this history
00:32:39.999 --> 00:32:44.708
because their way
of seeing the events
00:32:44.709 --> 00:32:46.541
was a whole part of this.
00:32:46.542 --> 00:32:50.833
It was really
their emotional state
00:32:50.834 --> 00:32:54.833
which I was interested
in and not...
00:32:54.834 --> 00:32:56.374
Let us say you have the diary
00:32:56.375 --> 00:33:00.998
of 12 year old Rubinovich
near Kielce.
00:33:00.999 --> 00:33:03.625
Rubinovich has no idea
of the general
00:33:03.626 --> 00:33:06.998
when the Jews
are taken to Kielce
00:33:06.999 --> 00:33:09.625
to organize actually
a Jewish council
00:33:09.626 --> 00:33:14.998
he says, well, he describes
it in a 12 year old way
00:33:14.999 --> 00:33:16.583
but when he says,
00:33:16.584 --> 00:33:20.041
\"I am very sad
because I walked to Kielce,\"
00:33:20.042 --> 00:33:21.458
which in itself is enough,
00:33:21.459 --> 00:33:25.791
it was four hours walking
to go to a dentist,
00:33:25.792 --> 00:33:26.626
\"I walked to Kielce,\"
00:33:26.627 --> 00:33:28.833
because the Jews
were not allowed
00:33:28.834 --> 00:33:31.249
to take any means
of transportation,
00:33:31.250 --> 00:33:35.998
he was 12 years old but walked
4 hours there, 4 hours back,
00:33:35.999 --> 00:33:36.626
\"I was very sad
00:33:36.627 --> 00:33:40.875
because the police
came on the road.
00:33:40.876 --> 00:33:41.667
I saw them on the road
00:33:41.668 --> 00:33:44.041
and they killed a Jewess
there on the road
00:33:44.042 --> 00:33:44.999
so I am very sad.\"
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:49.416
Which is a child\"s way
of describing things.
00:33:49.417 --> 00:33:53.333
The question of Moshe Flincker,
00:33:53.334 --> 00:33:55.625
\"Are we near redemption?
00:33:55.626 --> 00:33:57.041
Because God has really...\"
00:33:57.042 --> 00:34:02.416
very orthodox kid, 16 years old
family very orthodox...
00:34:02.417 --> 00:34:05.875
\"Are we near redemption
for all the sufferings...
00:34:05.876 --> 00:34:09.500
I mean are sufferings
are well beyond our sins
00:34:09.501 --> 00:34:14.998
so there must be a divine,
a divine plan here
00:34:14.999 --> 00:34:16.708
that we will be redeemed,\"
00:34:16.709 --> 00:34:19.999
and when God doesn\"t
give an answer says,
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.998
\"Maybe we are lost maybe our
sins were really much too much.\"
00:34:24.999 --> 00:34:29.541
And then he gives a description
of the situation of the Jews
00:34:29.542 --> 00:34:32.999
which I think is so shocking
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.750
and heart wrenching
00:34:35.751 --> 00:34:38.666
that only a 16 year old boy
00:34:38.667 --> 00:34:40.583
or girl could have written it
00:34:40.584 --> 00:34:44.249
he says, \"It is
like people dancing.
00:34:44.250 --> 00:34:48.458
Everybody is dancing
and happy in a hall
00:34:48.459 --> 00:34:50.998
and then there is only one group
00:34:50.999 --> 00:34:53.750
which is neither
happy nor dancing
00:34:53.751 --> 00:34:56.625
and from time to time,\" he says,
00:34:56.626 --> 00:34:58.666
\"people come take them in
00:34:58.667 --> 00:35:00.875
the next room
and strangle them,\"
00:35:00.876 --> 00:35:03.416
he says, \"and the more
they strangle
00:35:03.417 --> 00:35:06.124
the more the others
are dancing.\"
00:35:06.125 --> 00:35:08.998
I mean this has nothing to do
00:35:08.999 --> 00:35:10.750
with the view of the situation,
00:35:10.751 --> 00:35:15.583
this has to do with sheer
emotion of that boy,
00:35:15.584 --> 00:35:17.500
which was killed in Auschwitz
00:35:17.501 --> 00:35:19.124
and with the reader.
00:35:19.125 --> 00:35:20.998
So you see and very religious,
00:35:20.999 --> 00:35:25.998
so how he deals
with God in this situation
00:35:25.999 --> 00:35:28.416
is left open, of course,
00:35:28.417 --> 00:35:29.998
but he believed to the end.
00:35:29.999 --> 00:35:33.917
So that is what I looked
for in the diaries
00:35:33.918 --> 00:35:37.500
not at all any documentation
00:35:37.501 --> 00:35:38.583
about the situation
00:35:38.584 --> 00:35:42.416
but small details which say
a lot about the situation
00:35:42.417 --> 00:35:46.291
without really being
an overview of the situation.
00:35:46.292 --> 00:35:54.292
♪
00:35:58.626 --> 00:36:03.500
You see the Drahtzieher,
those who pull the strings.
00:36:03.501 --> 00:36:08.666
All those posters actually
tell the same story,
00:36:08.667 --> 00:36:11.583
but that was also the idea
00:36:11.584 --> 00:36:15.166
of Nazi propaganda to repeat.
00:36:15.167 --> 00:36:19.082
And repeat and repeat
the same story.
00:36:19.083 --> 00:36:21.291
♪
00:36:21.292 --> 00:36:25.625
You see here this poster
\"The Eternal Jew\",
00:36:25.626 --> 00:36:28.998
the Jew tries
to dominate the world,
00:36:28.999 --> 00:36:30.541
to dominate history.
00:36:30.542 --> 00:36:32.999
Here is the capitalist side
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.875
and here is communism
00:36:34.876 --> 00:36:36.998
and of course The Eternal Jew
00:36:36.999 --> 00:36:39.082
is holding both in his hands
00:36:39.083 --> 00:36:43.249
and plotting both
against humanity.
00:36:43.250 --> 00:36:51.250
♪
00:36:55.584 --> 00:37:01.500
Well here is
\"The Jew\", \"The Jew\"
00:37:01.501 --> 00:37:04.998
and Hitler never
spoke of the Jews
00:37:04.999 --> 00:37:07.791
he spoke of \"The Jew\"
which means
00:37:07.792 --> 00:37:11.875
a kind of abstract principle
that...
00:37:11.876 --> 00:37:14.999
Whether The Jews
were being killed
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.998
was a... was not
the end of the struggle.
00:37:17.999 --> 00:37:22.917
The end of the struggle
was to destroy \"The Jew\".
00:37:22.918 --> 00:37:24.541
Practically...
00:37:24.542 --> 00:37:27.998
Well, an abstract principal
in history
00:37:27.999 --> 00:37:32.124
that is really this idea
of \"Redemptive Anti-Semitism\"
00:37:32.125 --> 00:37:36.750
it is to redeem the world
from \"The Jew\".
00:37:36.751 --> 00:37:41.166
\"The Jew\" anything can
which is even touched
00:37:41.167 --> 00:37:44.750
by \"The Jew\" is polluted.
00:37:44.751 --> 00:37:47.166
And has been so
throughout history.
00:37:47.167 --> 00:37:50.458
So now has come the last moment
00:37:50.459 --> 00:37:54.458
for the last struggle
to save humanity,
00:37:54.459 --> 00:37:56.374
to save Aryan humanity.
00:37:56.375 --> 00:37:59.625
Now comparison
of contiguous phenomena.
00:37:59.626 --> 00:38:02.625
That is,
the extermination of the Jews
00:38:02.626 --> 00:38:03.750
and before just before that
00:38:03.751 --> 00:38:07.998
contiguously the extermination
of the mentally ill,
00:38:07.999 --> 00:38:11.541
the Polish elites to a point,
00:38:11.542 --> 00:38:14.082
and of course the gypsies.
00:38:14.083 --> 00:38:15.998
We don\"t know the numbers.
00:38:15.999 --> 00:38:17.166
For the mentally ill we know,
00:38:17.167 --> 00:38:21.750
more or less, 70,000
before August \"41
00:38:21.751 --> 00:38:23.541
when there was
a change of method,
00:38:23.542 --> 00:38:26.833
let\"s say, and then
70,000, more or less,
00:38:26.834 --> 00:38:29.791
after that for all
the reasons we know:
00:38:29.792 --> 00:38:33.458
economic, the beds
in institutions,
00:38:33.459 --> 00:38:38.998
the keeping people
who were not worth anything,
00:38:38.999 --> 00:38:41.500
paying for their
upkeep or whatever.
00:38:41.501 --> 00:38:44.166
These exterminations
are exterminations,
00:38:44.167 --> 00:38:46.249
I mean I don\"t make
any difference
00:38:46.250 --> 00:38:47.791
between killing this group,
00:38:47.792 --> 00:38:50.750
killing that group, killing...
There were plans
00:38:50.751 --> 00:38:55.208
to have some 20, 30 million
Slavs die of hunger,
00:38:55.209 --> 00:38:57.998
eventually the Hunger Plans.
00:38:57.999 --> 00:39:01.374
But none of these groups
was considered
00:39:01.375 --> 00:39:05.833
as a danger to the survival
of the Aryan race,
00:39:05.834 --> 00:39:07.998
of the Volk and humanity.
00:39:07.999 --> 00:39:09.750
The Jews, you have now to add
00:39:09.751 --> 00:39:13.291
the whole mythical history
of anti-Semitism
00:39:13.292 --> 00:39:15.998
going back to Christianity.
00:39:15.999 --> 00:39:19.208
That is they are evil
per se at some stages
00:39:19.209 --> 00:39:22.500
at least in this long history
00:39:22.501 --> 00:39:24.999
and Redemptive Anti-Semitism,
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.750
precisely the notion comes
from this idea that they were...
00:39:29.751 --> 00:39:34.998
It is either or,
or we win or they win
00:39:34.999 --> 00:39:37.166
and if they win we are finished
00:39:37.167 --> 00:39:39.666
so that... and that was not said
00:39:39.667 --> 00:39:42.999
neither about the Polish elites,
nor about the mentally ill,
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:44.416
nor about the gypsies,
00:39:44.417 --> 00:39:47.500
which were social
or national problems.
00:39:47.501 --> 00:39:50.249
The Poles could
organize resistance,
00:39:50.250 --> 00:39:51.708
so kill the elite,
00:39:51.709 --> 00:39:57.416
but the Jews would eventually
destroy everybody
00:39:57.417 --> 00:40:01.666
that is that Hitler
fought for \"Mein Kampf\"
00:40:01.667 --> 00:40:04.750
was the Kampf against
the Jews first of all.
00:40:04.751 --> 00:40:09.291
And that is why this ideology
00:40:09.292 --> 00:40:11.416
had a power of its own
00:40:11.417 --> 00:40:13.833
and that is what Himmler
then said in Posen
00:40:13.834 --> 00:40:17.249
\"If we leave them they will
come back in 20 years.\"
00:40:17.250 --> 00:40:19.501
(cheering)
00:40:38.999 --> 00:40:40.708
The idea was to get the Jews
00:40:40.709 --> 00:40:43.666
out of the German sphere.
00:40:43.667 --> 00:40:44.708
The Territorial Plans.
00:40:44.709 --> 00:40:49.998
Now the moment the war became
a general war, a world war,
00:40:49.999 --> 00:40:54.249
with the Russians counter
attacking front of Moscow
00:40:54.250 --> 00:40:55.125
in December \"41
00:40:55.126 --> 00:40:59.124
and the Americans
having entered the war,
00:40:59.125 --> 00:41:03.998
this notorious idea
of the World War,
00:41:03.999 --> 00:41:07.041
which Hitler had said
he would not allow
00:41:07.042 --> 00:41:11.041
the Jews to survive it,
was there.
00:41:11.042 --> 00:41:13.541
Now A: he could not backtrack
00:41:13.542 --> 00:41:17.333
once he had prophesized that
the Jews would be exterminated
00:41:17.334 --> 00:41:21.166
if there was a World War
he couldn\"t suddenly say,
00:41:21.167 --> 00:41:24.541
\"Well maybe not.\"
00:41:24.542 --> 00:41:26.999
For the party, for those
who believed in him
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.082
he couldn\"t but mainly
because he did believe
00:41:30.083 --> 00:41:34.166
and here we have Redemptive
Anti-Semitism coming back
00:41:34.167 --> 00:41:37.998
that if in a general war
which now would be
00:41:37.999 --> 00:41:39.541
a long war and a difficult war
00:41:39.542 --> 00:41:43.998
and a war with a slight
intimation of defeat,
00:41:43.999 --> 00:41:46.458
the Jews, as the archenemies
00:41:46.459 --> 00:41:49.791
remained within the Reich
00:41:49.792 --> 00:41:51.999
and the occupied territories,
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:56.333
they would again
stab Germany in the back
00:41:56.334 --> 00:41:57.999
as they did in 1918.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.124
He constantly referred to 1918.
00:42:00.125 --> 00:42:05.082
The Jews... we lost World War I
because of the Jews.
00:42:05.083 --> 00:42:06.998
Now if we keep them...
00:42:06.999 --> 00:42:10.374
Now there were no
territorial plans impossible
00:42:10.375 --> 00:42:14.166
the Russians
and the English and so on.
00:42:14.167 --> 00:42:16.042
So now kill them.
00:42:37.459 --> 00:42:41.541
In September 1942,
00:42:41.542 --> 00:42:46.708
when the Germans were arresting
the Jews in the free zone
00:42:46.709 --> 00:42:48.998
as if... that is
the French police
00:42:48.999 --> 00:42:51.998
was doing it for the Germans.
00:42:51.999 --> 00:42:55.998
Groups were being
organized in Lyon
00:42:55.999 --> 00:43:00.458
to cross the Alps
here in this region
00:43:00.459 --> 00:43:03.124
and then to get to Switzerland
00:43:03.125 --> 00:43:06.374
either here or in other...
00:43:06.375 --> 00:43:08.166
There are not so many passages
00:43:08.167 --> 00:43:10.500
actually except for this one.
00:43:10.501 --> 00:43:13.998
Well my parents went to Lyon.
00:43:13.999 --> 00:43:16.625
There they traveled
00:43:16.626 --> 00:43:20.998
to somewhere in this region,
00:43:20.999 --> 00:43:25.208
went up the mountains
00:43:25.209 --> 00:43:29.666
with a... with a guide,
of course,
00:43:29.667 --> 00:43:34.374
then probably went down a place,
00:43:34.375 --> 00:43:36.625
which is behind us,
00:43:36.626 --> 00:43:38.124
which is called Novel,
00:43:38.125 --> 00:43:43.082
you see there are
very dense forests here
00:43:43.083 --> 00:43:46.374
so you can really walk
through the forest
00:43:46.375 --> 00:43:48.833
and find yourself
on the Swiss side.
00:43:48.834 --> 00:43:53.208
Well my parents did not go
by way of the forest,
00:43:53.209 --> 00:43:56.249
but came down
to St. Gingolph.
00:43:56.250 --> 00:43:58.998
The whole group, that is, of 15
00:43:58.999 --> 00:44:03.875
and the assumption was
that if you walked through
00:44:03.876 --> 00:44:07.208
this actual single street
of St. Gingolph
00:44:07.209 --> 00:44:11.999
going from France
to Switzerland,
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.541
if you walked around two
or three in the morning
00:44:15.542 --> 00:44:20.998
there would be no...
No Swiss border police
00:44:20.999 --> 00:44:25.541
and that been indicated
by the guide.
00:44:25.542 --> 00:44:27.166
Well that\"s what happened.
00:44:27.167 --> 00:44:28.917
The whole group went down
00:44:28.918 --> 00:44:32.333
from Novel to St. Gingolph
00:44:32.334 --> 00:44:37.500
and walked along the street
00:44:37.501 --> 00:44:38.998
towards the Swiss border
00:44:38.999 --> 00:44:44.416
which is here practically
and unexpectedly
00:44:44.417 --> 00:44:46.458
a group of youngsters
00:44:46.459 --> 00:44:51.333
came out of a bar
at 3:00 in the morning
00:44:51.334 --> 00:44:55.917
on that very night,
saw the group of Jews.
00:44:55.918 --> 00:44:59.416
They immediately
understood what it was,
00:44:59.417 --> 00:45:00.998
called the police
00:45:00.999 --> 00:45:05.998
and the Swiss border guards
arrived immediately
00:45:05.999 --> 00:45:08.709
and arrested the whole group.
00:45:13.459 --> 00:45:16.124
The irony is that the Swiss,
00:45:16.125 --> 00:45:18.750
I have the Swiss documents now,
00:45:18.751 --> 00:45:23.583
the Swiss arrested
the whole group of 15... 13,
00:45:23.584 --> 00:45:27.583
or 15 Jews crossing the border
00:45:27.584 --> 00:45:32.998
and from the protocol
it is written
00:45:32.999 --> 00:45:36.750
that those couples
with small children
00:45:36.751 --> 00:45:40.208
would be left to get
into Switzerland,
00:45:40.209 --> 00:45:42.750
those without children
would be sent back,
00:45:42.751 --> 00:45:46.458
my parents... had I been there
we would have gone through
00:45:46.459 --> 00:45:49.124
because there was
a week or two weeks,
00:45:49.125 --> 00:45:53.458
I forgot now, where
the Swiss let families...
00:45:53.459 --> 00:45:54.998
Families with children,
00:45:54.999 --> 00:45:57.998
with small children
enter the country.
00:45:57.999 --> 00:46:00.249
It was written
in the report of the police
00:46:00.250 --> 00:46:04.291
about this arrestation
that as the Friedlaänders
00:46:04.292 --> 00:46:07.833
and another couple
had no child with them
00:46:07.834 --> 00:46:09.998
they were to be delivered
to the French police,
00:46:09.999 --> 00:46:13.082
which they were
and then sent to Rivesaltes,
00:46:13.083 --> 00:46:17.082
to Drancy, and to Auschwitz.
00:46:17.083 --> 00:46:23.998
♪
00:46:23.999 --> 00:46:27.208
This is a letter,
00:46:27.209 --> 00:46:31.917
that\"s a letter my father
threw from the train
00:46:31.918 --> 00:46:37.958
taking them, October \"42,
00:46:37.959 --> 00:46:42.958
from Drancy to Auschwitz.
00:46:42.959 --> 00:46:46.999
It is addressed
to Madame Macé de Lépinay,
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.041
she was my marrainne.
00:46:50.042 --> 00:46:53.374
And my father writes to her
00:46:53.375 --> 00:46:56.999
on October 5, 1942.
00:47:18.292 --> 00:47:21.876
That is little gold
and, kind of...
00:48:00.999 --> 00:48:02.708
Friend, probably.
00:48:02.709 --> 00:48:10.709
♪
00:48:18.167 --> 00:48:20.998
You had at several,
at all levels,
00:48:20.999 --> 00:48:23.750
people who really believing
00:48:23.751 --> 00:48:25.958
that it was a sacred task
00:48:25.959 --> 00:48:27.541
to get rid of the Jews
00:48:27.542 --> 00:48:31.625
and as there were no
countervailing forces,
00:48:31.626 --> 00:48:33.208
as there was no opposition
00:48:33.209 --> 00:48:36.666
because of the ordinary
anti-Semitism
00:48:36.667 --> 00:48:37.998
or because of other reasons,
00:48:37.999 --> 00:48:41.082
because people were afraid
or indifferent,
00:48:41.083 --> 00:48:44.875
a small group was enough to push
the whole thing through,
00:48:44.876 --> 00:48:48.998
to push the whole thing
through to the very end
00:48:48.999 --> 00:48:51.500
and don\"t forget
that the last train
00:48:51.501 --> 00:48:53.249
with Jewish children from Paris
00:48:53.250 --> 00:48:57.541
left the city two days
before Paris was liberated.
00:48:57.542 --> 00:49:01.333
And we spoke of Izieu,
00:49:01.334 --> 00:49:04.041
Izieu the home,
00:49:04.042 --> 00:49:07.958
the Children\"s Colony
of Izieu was taken
00:49:07.959 --> 00:49:10.583
two months before, but the Jews,
00:49:10.584 --> 00:49:14.541
the Sefardi Jews
of the Aegean Islands
00:49:14.542 --> 00:49:18.124
were brought to by boat,
00:49:18.125 --> 00:49:22.041
the boat came from Greece
to the islands,
00:49:22.042 --> 00:49:23.917
took the Jewish communities
00:49:23.918 --> 00:49:27.917
of Rhodes
and a small island Kos,
00:49:27.918 --> 00:49:29.416
1600 Jews,
00:49:29.417 --> 00:49:33.791
brought them 10 days
sailing to Athens
00:49:33.792 --> 00:49:35.458
and then 10 days by train,
00:49:35.459 --> 00:49:39.625
because the bombings
and everything in July \"44,
00:49:39.626 --> 00:49:42.500
to Auschwitz where they
were immediately killed.
00:49:42.501 --> 00:49:44.998
So you have a drive here
00:49:44.999 --> 00:49:47.333
which if it had been only
00:49:47.334 --> 00:49:48.625
a matter of bureaucracy
00:49:48.626 --> 00:49:52.583
and so on would have
died down of its own
00:49:52.584 --> 00:49:56.249
because of the difficulties
of the total war.
00:49:56.250 --> 00:49:58.998
But the difficulties of the
total war
00:49:58.999 --> 00:50:00.625
didn\"t stop the extermination
00:50:00.626 --> 00:50:04.416
of the hundreds of thousands
of Hungarian Jews
00:50:04.417 --> 00:50:06.041
from May 1944
00:50:06.042 --> 00:50:10.875
to the beginning
of the summer of 1944.
00:50:10.876 --> 00:50:12.666
There was a drive
00:50:12.667 --> 00:50:16.708
which was ideological,
essentially,
00:50:16.709 --> 00:50:18.917
and came from the top
00:50:18.918 --> 00:50:21.959
in my, at least, in my opinion.
00:50:45.999 --> 00:50:48.500
That drive has been documented.
00:50:48.501 --> 00:50:51.333
Friedlaänder has shown
how Jews from all sides
00:50:51.334 --> 00:50:54.374
of the German conquered world
were deported
00:50:54.375 --> 00:50:57.999
to be killed in
the extermination camps.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.583
Big groups, small groups,
mini groups.
00:51:01.584 --> 00:51:03.998
The Reichsfuührer
of the SS went so far
00:51:03.999 --> 00:51:06.833
as to put pressure
on the Finnish Prime Minister
00:51:06.834 --> 00:51:09.998
to deliver the 30
or 40 foreign Jews
00:51:09.999 --> 00:51:13.998
living in Finland
into German hands.
00:51:13.999 --> 00:51:15.291
There are witnesses.
00:51:15.292 --> 00:51:17.082
Everything is proven.
00:51:17.083 --> 00:51:20.666
But to show it is
not always possible.
00:51:20.667 --> 00:51:22.249
I have looked everywhere
00:51:22.250 --> 00:51:24.708
and had others
search for pictures
00:51:24.709 --> 00:51:25.998
of the deportations
00:51:25.999 --> 00:51:28.082
of the Jews of Kos and Rhodes,
00:51:28.083 --> 00:51:30.541
but they were not to be found.
00:51:30.542 --> 00:51:34.249
No archive holds
film images or photographs
00:51:34.250 --> 00:51:37.999
of the arrest of the Jews
in Vichy-France.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:41.374
The last train
with children from Paris
00:51:41.375 --> 00:51:44.500
we can only try to imagine.
00:51:44.501 --> 00:51:46.124
The images which are there
00:51:46.125 --> 00:51:48.374
give you that feeling
that Friedlaänder evokes
00:51:48.375 --> 00:51:50.998
in the beginning:
disbelief.
00:51:50.999 --> 00:51:54.999
This can not be true,
yet it is true.
00:51:57.250 --> 00:52:05.250
♪
00:52:14.876 --> 00:52:16.500
The Germans were there.
00:52:16.501 --> 00:52:24.501
♪
00:52:25.959 --> 00:52:28.249
(speaking foreign language)
00:52:28.250 --> 00:52:30.998
♪
00:52:30.999 --> 00:52:33.333
Germans invaded Hungary.
00:52:33.334 --> 00:52:36.124
♪
00:52:36.125 --> 00:52:39.791
Had there been voices
00:52:39.792 --> 00:52:41.998
of onlookers with moral...
00:52:41.999 --> 00:52:46.416
With great moral authority
or great reputations
00:52:46.417 --> 00:52:50.333
as writers or whatever,
00:52:50.334 --> 00:52:53.583
it would have swayed, maybe,
00:52:53.584 --> 00:52:56.998
people to try
00:52:56.999 --> 00:52:59.374
to hide some Jews
00:52:59.375 --> 00:53:03.998
or try to help somehow.
00:53:03.999 --> 00:53:07.958
My point is with the onlookers
00:53:07.959 --> 00:53:11.999
of those higher levels
of society,
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.374
that it is very understandable.
00:53:16.375 --> 00:53:19.999
It would be quite understandable
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.666
if a thousand
00:53:22.667 --> 00:53:24.999
lets limit this reflections
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:28.500
to Germany... Germany, Austria.
00:53:28.501 --> 00:53:34.666
If 1,000 people of high
standing, moral standing,
00:53:34.667 --> 00:53:38.041
clergymen and so on bishops,
00:53:38.042 --> 00:53:40.625
it is quite understandable
that 1,000
00:53:40.626 --> 00:53:46.500
didn\"t say anything
out of fear and so on,
00:53:46.501 --> 00:53:50.583
that 100 or maybe 10
00:53:50.584 --> 00:53:54.876
didn\"t speak up is already.
00:53:56.667 --> 00:54:00.833
Historically raises
a big question.
00:54:00.834 --> 00:54:03.208
That nobody spoke
00:54:03.209 --> 00:54:05.959
is incomprehensible.
00:54:08.667 --> 00:54:16.667
♪
00:54:25.417 --> 00:54:27.541
In order to reinforce,
00:54:27.542 --> 00:54:30.041
in a way, my faith,
00:54:30.042 --> 00:54:33.249
the nuns asked me to visit
00:54:33.250 --> 00:54:35.458
a Jesuit father whom I knew,
00:54:35.459 --> 00:54:36.500
who had come,
00:54:36.501 --> 00:54:39.041
who was coming regularly
00:54:39.042 --> 00:54:42.249
to that institution,
00:54:42.250 --> 00:54:46.416
which was controlled
by the Jesuits from far.
00:54:46.417 --> 00:54:49.666
We visited the city
00:54:49.667 --> 00:54:51.791
and we entered a church
00:54:51.792 --> 00:54:54.998
and in that church somehow,
00:54:54.999 --> 00:54:56.166
for whatever reason,
00:54:56.167 --> 00:55:00.625
our conversation went
he said, because I said,
00:55:00.626 --> 00:55:04.998
\"Well my parents are dead,\"
00:55:04.999 --> 00:55:08.082
and I vaguely knew
00:55:08.083 --> 00:55:12.291
and he said, \"But maybe
they died in Auschwitz.
00:55:12.292 --> 00:55:13.500
I said, \"Auschwitz?\"
00:55:13.501 --> 00:55:15.458
I had never heard of Auschwitz.
00:55:15.459 --> 00:55:18.166
And so he said, \"Yes,
yes, that\"s a place
00:55:18.167 --> 00:55:21.998
where the Germans
murdered Jews.\"
00:55:21.999 --> 00:55:27.998
And that\"s how
a Jesuit told me about...
00:55:27.999 --> 00:55:31.875
That was my first information
about the Shoah
00:55:31.876 --> 00:55:35.791
except, of course,
what little I had seen
00:55:35.792 --> 00:55:39.249
in person as persecution before.
00:55:39.250 --> 00:55:44.416
Now he did that, I am sure,
intentionally
00:55:44.417 --> 00:55:47.998
to make me at least to... to...
00:55:47.999 --> 00:55:51.166
He knew that I wanted
to become a priest and so on
00:55:51.167 --> 00:55:54.291
but he wanted me
to know something
00:55:54.292 --> 00:55:58.291
about not only my identity,
00:55:58.292 --> 00:55:59.998
my basic identity
00:55:59.999 --> 00:56:02.625
but also what had happened.
00:56:02.626 --> 00:56:07.082
He saw of course that I was
being pushed in a direction,
00:56:07.083 --> 00:56:08.998
whether he agreed
that ultimately
00:56:08.999 --> 00:56:12.541
I should go in that direction
or not, I don\"t know.
00:56:12.542 --> 00:56:14.750
But I am sure that he did that
00:56:14.751 --> 00:56:18.998
out of charity and justice.
00:56:18.999 --> 00:56:20.999
You know sense of justice.
00:57:01.999 --> 00:57:03.998
Israel was a place of choice.
00:57:03.999 --> 00:57:08.208
I came to Israel
to rebuild an identity
00:57:08.209 --> 00:57:10.374
from all the lost identities
00:57:10.375 --> 00:57:13.958
of childhood and teenage.
00:57:13.959 --> 00:57:15.082
And I did to a point
00:57:15.083 --> 00:57:19.625
and then I started losing
that new identity
00:57:19.626 --> 00:57:23.291
because more in great part
00:57:23.292 --> 00:57:25.166
because of what I sensed
00:57:25.167 --> 00:57:28.750
was the political
transformation.
00:57:28.751 --> 00:57:32.998
When I saw the kind of
nationalist exaltation
00:57:32.999 --> 00:57:34.998
which followed the Six Day War
00:57:34.999 --> 00:57:39.249
and many aspects which I found
00:57:39.250 --> 00:57:41.750
more and more problematic,
00:57:41.751 --> 00:57:42.998
plus the occupation
00:57:42.999 --> 00:57:46.666
which clearly was growing,
00:57:46.667 --> 00:57:50.917
I started changing
because I said
00:57:50.918 --> 00:57:54.208
if we continue to occupy
those territories
00:57:54.209 --> 00:57:59.082
we will lose our whole
moral raison d\"être,
00:57:59.083 --> 00:58:01.917
we will lose the values
which were,
00:58:01.918 --> 00:58:04.875
at least considered,
as the ideas
00:58:04.876 --> 00:58:08.998
of a just and democratic
Jewish society
00:58:08.999 --> 00:58:12.333
in that new state
and on that of course
00:58:12.334 --> 00:58:15.750
I did not change my views
to this day.
00:58:15.751 --> 00:58:23.751
♪
00:58:52.501 --> 00:58:55.416
In your autobiography you wrote
00:58:55.417 --> 00:58:57.958
that perpetual restlessness
00:58:57.959 --> 00:59:00.998
and anxiety in perpetual motion
00:59:00.999 --> 00:59:02.041
is the essential feature
00:59:02.042 --> 00:59:04.958
of Jewish life in our times,
00:59:04.959 --> 00:59:06.917
is that a self portrait?
00:59:06.918 --> 00:59:08.208
Is that a projection?
00:59:08.209 --> 00:59:10.750
Is that a general
observation of the...
00:59:10.751 --> 00:59:14.791
Well it was a self portrait
first of all
00:59:14.792 --> 00:59:18.082
and I noticed that I lived in,
00:59:18.083 --> 00:59:20.958
I am born here in Prague,
00:59:20.959 --> 00:59:23.166
well then out of necessity
00:59:23.167 --> 00:59:24.125
we lived in France,
00:59:24.126 --> 00:59:27.416
I lived in France
under different identities,
00:59:27.417 --> 00:59:31.208
then I did not stay
in France, which I could,
00:59:31.209 --> 00:59:33.374
but I moved,
00:59:33.375 --> 00:59:36.750
I emigrated to Israel in \"48,
00:59:36.751 --> 00:59:37.998
then I lived in Israel
00:59:37.999 --> 00:59:40.082
but went back
to France to study.
00:59:40.083 --> 00:59:42.500
Then I left France
to go to Sweden.
00:59:42.501 --> 00:59:46.124
Then from Sweden
I traveled to the States
00:59:46.125 --> 00:59:48.041
started to study there,
work there,
00:59:48.042 --> 00:59:50.833
and came back
to Israel and so on.
00:59:50.834 --> 00:59:54.833
Then finally I landed,
if I may say, in Switzerland
00:59:54.834 --> 00:59:56.333
for a long period of time
00:59:56.334 --> 00:59:58.666
where I finished my studies
00:59:58.667 --> 01:00:00.998
and started teaching
at the University,
01:00:00.999 --> 01:00:03.041
but then I didn\"t
stay in Switzerland
01:00:03.042 --> 01:00:07.998
because I always moved
between Israel and Switzerland,
01:00:07.999 --> 01:00:10.998
and then I finally moved
to the United States
01:00:10.999 --> 01:00:12.249
and started teaching there,
01:00:12.250 --> 01:00:15.541
moving also between Tel Aviv
and Los Angeles
01:00:15.542 --> 01:00:17.458
until I retired from there.
01:00:17.459 --> 01:00:19.998
So I have lived all over
01:00:19.999 --> 01:00:24.875
and you may say that
this is because...
01:00:24.876 --> 01:00:27.041
there were opportunities.
01:00:27.042 --> 01:00:31.998
No, it is a kind
of strange restlessness
01:00:31.999 --> 01:00:33.833
which others have noticed
01:00:33.834 --> 01:00:38.124
and which I attribute
to my early experiences
01:00:38.125 --> 01:00:40.291
of moving from place to place
01:00:40.292 --> 01:00:42.208
and hiding and moving.
01:00:42.209 --> 01:00:44.998
I need to be...
To change places,
01:00:44.999 --> 01:00:50.791
probably as a kind of running
away from some danger.
01:00:50.792 --> 01:00:58.792
♪
01:01:06.999 --> 01:01:08.541
David Moffie
01:01:08.542 --> 01:01:10.998
was awarded his degree
in medicine
01:01:10.999 --> 01:01:13.500
at the University of Amsterdam
01:01:13.501 --> 01:01:16.541
on September 18, 1942.
01:01:16.542 --> 01:01:19.458
The description of
the photograph of this event
01:01:19.459 --> 01:01:23.541
opens the introduction
of \"The Years of Extermination\"
01:01:23.542 --> 01:01:27.541
the second volume
of \"Nazi-Germany and the Jews\".
01:01:27.542 --> 01:01:30.998
Friedlaänder describes
the scene in detail,
01:01:30.999 --> 01:01:32.333
the people, the robes,
01:01:32.334 --> 01:01:35.750
the star on Moffies\"s waistcoat.
01:01:35.751 --> 01:01:37.041
In a few sentences
01:01:37.042 --> 01:01:40.374
he zooms out
to its wider meaning.
01:01:40.375 --> 01:01:42.458
Moffie was deported to Auschwitz
01:01:42.459 --> 01:01:45.124
a few days after the ceremony
01:01:45.125 --> 01:01:46.666
and survived the Shoah
01:01:46.667 --> 01:01:50.208
like 20% of the Jews of Holland.
01:01:50.209 --> 01:01:52.833
According
to the same statistics,
01:01:52.834 --> 01:01:57.125
most of the Jews present
at the ceremony did not.
01:01:58.999 --> 01:02:00.875
\"The new MD,
01:02:00.876 --> 01:02:03.998
like all the carriers
of this sign,
01:02:03.999 --> 01:02:08.917
was to be wiped off
the face of the earth.
01:02:08.918 --> 01:02:12.791
Once its portent is understood
01:02:12.792 --> 01:02:16.166
this photograph
triggers disbelief.
01:02:16.167 --> 01:02:21.541
Such disbelief is a quasi
visceral reaction,
01:02:21.542 --> 01:02:24.625
one that occurs before knowledge
01:02:24.626 --> 01:02:28.124
rushes in to smother it.
01:02:28.125 --> 01:02:30.500
\"Disbelief\" here
01:02:30.501 --> 01:02:33.998
means something that
arises from the depths
01:02:33.999 --> 01:02:38.291
of one\"s immediate perception
of the world,
01:02:38.292 --> 01:02:40.583
and of what is ordinary
01:02:40.584 --> 01:02:43.998
and what remains \"unbelievable\".
01:02:43.999 --> 01:02:46.833
The goal of historical knowledge
01:02:46.834 --> 01:02:49.917
is to domesticate disbelief,
01:02:49.918 --> 01:02:51.998
to explain it away.
01:02:51.999 --> 01:02:54.998
In this book I wish to offer
01:02:54.999 --> 01:02:58.124
a thorough historical study
01:02:58.125 --> 01:02:59.541
of the extermination
01:02:59.542 --> 01:03:01.166
of the Jews of Europe,
01:03:01.167 --> 01:03:05.124
without eliminating
or domesticating
01:03:05.125 --> 01:03:08.834
the initial sense of disbelief.\"
01:03:09.876 --> 01:03:17.876
♪