WEBVTT

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[music]

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-The kitchen is so messy.

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-Oh my God.

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-Plastic bags.

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That\'s the chicken.

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-Where shall we start?

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You can always interrupt me
when I talk as I will interrupt you also.

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[background conversation]

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-I think I know that really.

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-For me standing here
I feel very emotional and vulnerable.

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I feel almost like the first time
I got a teaching job in Holland.

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I start to talk and I say,
\"I come from South Africa.

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I do all my confessions.\"

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I say, \"I gave you this problem,
that problem,

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and that problem.\"

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They stand like that
and I said, \"Don\'t you have any problems?\"

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I\'ve been asked different
questions hundreds of times

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by now and every time
it depends on which stage of your life,

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sometimes there\'s a different answer.

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That\'s also why it\'s very difficult
to find just one answer

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because I don\'t think there
is only one answer.

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-The fork.

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-6, 9, 10.

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-Whether you are well known
or not well well-known

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the things that interest you
and gives you problems,

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they will always stay that way.

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-The gate to the left.

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-I think I see a man
against the light here.

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Hey.

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-Hi.

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-I don\'t believe I\'m telling you
that an enormous light shine in here.

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-I\'m sorry.
Oh my God, that\'s awful.

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-From me.

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-Okay, we\'ll regift it,
it\'s a [crosstalk]?

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-I think so we regift
because I want to share with you.

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I hope it\'s okay.

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I would very much
like to drink something.

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Where shall I put--
-Come inside.

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I\'m presuming wine
rather than whiskey but we have both.

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-No, no whiskey.

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-Then some wine.

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-Don\'t tell me you did this too?

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-Which these?

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-These.
-No, no.

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When I was in Italy our friends [?] said
it\'s ridiculous

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that I can\'t paint
and I had to come to Italy.

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They were going to give me
painting lessons.

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I kind of enjoyed painting them
and I thought I could be a Sunday painter.

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I could enjoy painting on the weekends
and that\'s the child, you\'ve got them.

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-You put them in this.

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-That\'s why they sit in the kitchen,
they are not shown anywhere else

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but also you know the [?] asparagus.
-The [?] which we also like.

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We say [?] you\'re ahead of me
because I\'m working up to the still life.

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-Working up to the still life.

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-Yes, because I think
all the things that I\'ve always said,

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I don\'t like or can\'t do now

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I think, \"Okay, it\'s a challenge,
maybe I don\'t know.\"

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[music]

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-I didn\'t want to be a painter
but I was always told I am a painter

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and in the end, I accepted
that maybe that is then what I am.

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-For me, I suppose it was okay
to not be a painter.

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For me, the important thing was
discovering some context

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in which it was okay
for me not to have to paint

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but when I say I was relieved to discover

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that I didn\'t have to be a painter,

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it wasn\'t because I didn\'t want
to be a painter.

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I absolutely wanted to be a painter
but it is certain everyone

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has to understand the power
of incompetence for not being there.

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For years when I was drawing,
I said, \"Okay, I\'m drawing now

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but one day I will use canvas
and oil again then I\'ll be a real artist.

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I was dragged kicking
and screaming by other people to say,

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\"It\'s okay to be making
a film that can also be art.\"

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-I was always jealous of the filmmakers

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because I really
thought beautiful paintings

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has been made but I thought there
was a incompetence

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in painting actually
which I really admired in filmmakers.

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The young people
also they all really relate very well

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to your work.

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They all want to make animations now.

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-I know there is so much animation.

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[music]

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-When I first saw
your ink wash heads I had the feeling,

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\"Damn, if only I\'d thought of that.\"

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It was the saying, oh,
it\'s okay it all makes complete sense.

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I understand the logic, the impulse,
the pleasure

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whereas the paintings themselves.

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I\'ll go, \"Okay, that\'s not a medium,
I\'ll begin to know how to use.\"

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I work in a very different way.

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The pleasures of charcoal for me
was that it was alterable.

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That you could because it\'s very soft
you just wipe it with your hand

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or with a cloth and you\'ve erased 80%
of what you\'ve done.

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One of the things that I couldn\'t deal
with painting was that I couldn\'t work out

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how to alter a painting,

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how to deal with the wetness,
how to actually--

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-I wipe it off too.

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-A lot of it looks
like it\'s done and that\'s it.

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-Well, with the watercolor the thing is
indeed to do it as quickly as possible

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but some of my paintings
that is much thicker

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it is so thick because I changed my mind
but I never wait for the painting to dry

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because I\'m too impatient.

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The fact that I wipe off
a lot with the tabs

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is actually a way
of almost like you use your--

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-Erasing them.

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-Sometimes at last in the middle
of the late-night

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something can sometimes come together
it can happen very quickly.

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[music]

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-Yes, we are working
on our production of Wozzeck

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so the studio is taken
over into a theater rehearsal room

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at the moment
so there\'s nothing on the room.

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This is the set for Wozzeck.

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I either put the camera up there
and film down, hanging.

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It\'s sometimes in the middle
of the room, the wall there.

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-This I did see but on photographs,
you can never see things properly.

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-It looks enormous from the photo.

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-Mine?
-Yes.

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-Oh, no, no, mine is very low ceiling,
and have you seen the photograph

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of my [crosstalk]
-It\'s in the catalog.

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-No, no, no.

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They tell you if you draw
in that where do you sit then?

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Do you sit at the table?

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-Usually I have a stand
at a wall and draw on the wall.

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The whole wall is soft board.

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You can paint anywhere around the--

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that\'s the [?]
-At last we got something in common.

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-That is the vital thing
to understand that every surface

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is a pinboard

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because before I just spent
so much time re-sticking

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and moving and shifting
and here just to be able to.

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The house I\'m in is the house
of my parents

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so there are still kitchen cupboards
full of objects

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and sometimes even food from the 1960s
that have kind of been forgotten about.

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Objects which are either going
to get turned into sculptures

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or become part of theater projects
and acts and 19th-century egg whisks

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from a shop in France which became
a Herrera woman in Black Box.

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[music]

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-This is my studio before
that I had for 25 years or more.

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I had a smaller space in which I drew

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and I used a soft board there,

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that was one of my things
and I used for putting.

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I worked on the floor of the drawings
and then I would put them

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on the walls with pins or push pins.

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You would go from the floor to the wall
and that\'s why they also have

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a lot of holes in them
because I would look at them as I--

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-The whole place is newspapers

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that I still wanted to go through to see
the images in the newspapers

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and other clippings and clippings
that got reordered

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and that it is basically
all two-dimensional things.

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-Do you have folders,
which is like heads?

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-[giggles]
Yes, yes.

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I try--

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-Even though it\'s scattered,
it\'s a sense in which it\'s locatable.

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-Yes. That\'s why I also don\'t
like people cleaning up my places so.

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I don\'t want them to [crosstalk] things.

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-I see that in the park people
would have had sketchbooks

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where they would have had this record
of faces or heads or things they\'d seen.

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-But you still make sketches
though in little notebooks?

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-No, sometimes,
most of my sketchbooks have got phrases

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or sentences rather than drawings.

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[music]

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-We have to try to imagine
how do you find him

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that he believes the thoughts
are coming out of his head.

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Let\'s be more onstage, I think.

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Looking on stage, yes.
-[?]

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-I think so.

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We\'re just re-rehearsing Wozzeck now

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and suddenly as I had forgotten
as we did that 15 years ago,

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all sorts of images, characters,
things in it have been repeated

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for the last 15 years,
which I\'d forgotten about.

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Each time we think it\'s a new idea.

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You think, \"Oh, I\'m doing a new picture,
I haven\'t done this before.\"

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-Yes, yes.
-When it\'s finished, you say,

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\"Oh my God, I did the same thing here

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and there and there, all the way around.\"

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The actors that are pressed into service,

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the same troupe of actors that have
to come and perform every night.

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-I must get out of here.
-Must get out of here.

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-I think of something
to put damn rhinoceros

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that goes through my different work.

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I think for God\'s sake,
put me out to pasture

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and then another film comes
and he gets dragged

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out again,
he\'s got to do a series of tricks.

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-With me, the little girl appears
sometimes before I had a daughter,

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not exactly the same,
but things come back.

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If there\'s a period say,
maybe of more sexual things,

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there is maybe afterwards then it could be
that it becomes more somber again.

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[music]

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It\'s the painter
who taught me one of the things

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he said, \"Painting was about color.

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If you can\'t use color,
you\'re not a painter.\"

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That used to upset me quite a lot
because at that stage,

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I used color but I just used any color.

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It wasn\'t really that there\'s
that you\'re often seen

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many paintings of people,
they use a lot of color.

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You can\'t really say it\'s about color.

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Some of my paintings
are actually very graphic,

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they\'re much more about light and dark.

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Then other paintings, when you see them
in the real it\'s actually the color

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that makes the difference.

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[music]

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Certain colors I don\'t use
so often I like to use blues

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for example and so.

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Colors as I said, it\'s so strong
that if you have a red face it

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whether it\'s a good painting
or a bad painting,

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it takes up its place.

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I find red difficult, I use it sparingly
because it can really take over actually.

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In the illustration,
say in the red would stand for blood,

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but red is not always blood,
just as white is not always a race,

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it can be a color.

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Then if, say, for some reason,
most of the paint is finished

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and there is only certain browns
or grays left,

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then I can also make
a painting out of that.

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[music]

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-I used red, which I draw with myself
because then you\'ve got bad,

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it\'s like a photograph
that you\'ve got to photograph

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the charcoal drawing is the photograph.

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Then you\'ve got forensic notes
on top of the photograph.

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You\'d have that with a white marker
or something drawn on top.

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Just to differentiate those marks
from the drawing underneath.

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[music]

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It\'s very rare that I use
the footage that filmed in color,

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it\'s usually drained of color.

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But when I do not use color,
it\'s usually found color

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I trust as a palette.

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Most of the paintings
that I admire are full of color

00:17:30.280 --> 00:17:31.560
or have color not full of color.

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It\'s not saying oh I really like,

00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:37.573
it\'s absolutely not saying oh the pictures
I like are pictures that look like mine.

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Usually, pictures that look like mine
I want to keep far away from.

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So you look at a shot and
a still life that uses color

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like that or a piece of Alaska cloth.

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They\'ve got to be able
to work with color in that way.

00:17:50.260 --> 00:17:51.053
Yes, it\'s a sense of regret.

00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:54.613
I would also love to be able to sing
or play a musical instrument

00:17:54.780 --> 00:17:56.700
and it seems as far away as that.

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In the end, I\'m sorry I can\'t sing
but it doesn\'t keep me awake at night.

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[music]

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In a way directing,
I\'m sure the understanding

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of landscape always felt different
from conventional views of landscape.

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European images of water, of leafy trees,
of mountains, all the traditional things

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are nothing so easy.

00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:36.060
Landscape painting,
none of which were there in Johannesburg.

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There\'s certainly something
about Johannesburg

00:18:38.840 --> 00:18:41.733
that influenced thinking about kinds
of drawings that can be made.

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What is it to draw a mind dump
rather than a mountain

00:18:44.380 --> 00:18:47.780
or a culvert rather than a river?

00:18:48.980 --> 00:19:06.940
[ocean waves sound]

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-I don\'t draw the Dutch landscape
and I\'ve always didn\'t really feel.

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I indeed coming from Cape Town,
I miss a mountain.

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Amsterdam is so wet.

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You miss the crackling
of the dry grass and stuff like that.

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Even though this is not things
that I directly use in my work.

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One of the first sort of projects
at art school

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where we had to do something
about object transformed that actually,

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they took the human body
and I turned it into a landscape a bit,

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the navel, and the breasts.

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I then realized that maybe the effect
of the close-up in the paintings

00:19:51.320 --> 00:19:56.380
of the face becomes so big that the face
actually becomes the landscape.

00:19:56.940 --> 00:20:08.820
[music]

00:20:09.100 --> 00:20:11.820
-I never really wanted to paint the type.

00:20:12.100 --> 00:20:17.013
My idea was to have
every portrait different,

00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:22.013
even if that are in group together
that they still have to have

00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:23.493
a individuality.

00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:33.780
[music]

00:20:34.100 --> 00:20:35.853
-When I was a child,
I went to art lessons.

00:20:36.020 --> 00:20:37.133
We were taught by my--

00:20:37.300 --> 00:20:40.413
When I was 8, we were taught
that in a man,

00:20:40.580 --> 00:20:43.893
lines mean character
and in the drawing of a woman,

00:20:44.060 --> 00:20:45.100
lines mean age.

00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:51.733
For me, one of the great paintings was
when I saw the Stanley Spencer painting

00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:54.480
of himself and his wife
with The Leg of Mutton.

00:20:54.780 --> 00:20:59.253
It was the first time seeing a
woman painted with aging flesh

00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:03.580
and not breasts that stuck right up
but had the weight of gravity.

00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:08.133
For me it was a reassuring
that one could make a painting like that,

00:21:08.300 --> 00:21:09.613
that people existed like,

00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:12.593
so that in a way it gave an answer that,
yes, it\'s a very different way

00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:14.993
of looking at women
that doesn\'t just have to be

00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.820
in the paradigm of pearly smooth skin.

00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:21.533
-There was a time when
a certain blonde American girl

00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:22.900
was seen to be--

00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:25.873
She was always Miss World type of thing,

00:21:26.040 --> 00:21:29.820
but I actually now find
a lot of that, ugly.

00:21:30.940 --> 00:21:33.773
I think beauty is things also--

00:21:33.940 --> 00:21:36.573
When something loses
it\'s meaning for you,

00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:38.173
it becomes ugly also.

00:21:38.340 --> 00:21:42.300
It\'s not quite good enough,
but what one calls kitsch often.

00:21:42.620 --> 00:21:46.193
-I\'m trying to think also to distinguish
between the work of art

00:21:46.360 --> 00:21:48.193
and what is depicted.
-Yes, exactly.

00:21:48.360 --> 00:21:49.653
That\'s also important.

00:21:49.820 --> 00:21:53.213
-Beautiful David Goldblatt photograph
of what looks like a God-awful piece

00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:54.820
of dusty felt.

00:21:55.300 --> 00:21:58.620
When you\'ve seen the photograph,
does the felt itself become beautiful?

00:21:59.620 --> 00:22:03.820
Or can you say \"No, this is beautiful
but the referent is.\"

00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:47.980
[music]

00:22:48.220 --> 00:22:50.980
There\'s a series
of different skull drawings in Black Box

00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:54.373
which related to skulls being
sent back to Germany

00:22:54.540 --> 00:22:59.120
from the [?] being measured for deciding
what\'s the European skull,

00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:01.220
what\'s a black skull,
all of those questions.

00:23:02.580 --> 00:23:06.740
Those are based on photographs
of different skulls that I found.

00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:11.980
I tried to draw them conscientiously,

00:23:13.300 --> 00:23:14.893
but was I trying
to do beautiful drawings,

00:23:15.060 --> 00:23:17.740
no, I was trying to do drawings
that captured the skull

00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:21.213
and that had them drawn,
they were drawn on top of old ledger pages

00:23:21.380 --> 00:23:23.373
so there was something,
and certainly, I used that paper

00:23:23.540 --> 00:23:25.813
because there\'s something
that was very comfortable

00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.313
between them charcoal
and the surface of the paper,

00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.740
a slipperiness that made
a lot of light to come through.

00:23:34.580 --> 00:23:36.573
I said, \"Okay, they fit
into a tradition of people

00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:40.333
who\'ve painted or drawn skulls,
so it\'s not shocking like a baby.\"

00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:44.613
It\'s not a tradition of huge oversized,
naked newborn babies.

00:23:44.780 --> 00:23:48.133
It\'s not a tradition of images of that,
but it is a big tradition

00:23:48.300 --> 00:23:50.053
of what could be a horrific image.

00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.820
The newly fled bone of a head.

00:23:53.180 --> 00:23:59.373
[music]

00:23:59.540 --> 00:24:03.373
-With the babies, I do think
one of the main reasons people

00:24:03.540 --> 00:24:06.460
are a bit disturbed
is because they\'re so big.

00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:09.260
They\'re very big so psychologically--

00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:13.460
Oh, I just want to ask you,
do you find my babies ugly?

00:24:14.820 --> 00:24:15.713
-I think I do.

00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:17.220
[laughter]

00:24:18.140 --> 00:24:23.820
I don\'t know what it means.
[crosstalk]

00:24:24.820 --> 00:24:27.513
-Because it was from snapshots
from her after she was born.

00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.233
I think the snapshot
is much more frightening.

00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:35.913
The child can go and I think it\'s
also what you are used to in painting.

00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:37.520
It seems to--
-Absolutely.

00:24:38.300 --> 00:24:39.493
Is that a category you think of?

00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:41.113
Do you think,
\"Am I making a beautiful painting

00:24:41.280 --> 00:24:42.380
or an ugly painting?\"
No.

00:24:42.860 --> 00:24:43.533
Or do you?

00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:44.700
-No.

00:24:45.060 --> 00:24:48.573
-There\'s something in us that when we see
it and we get pleasure from it,

00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:49.273
we call it beauty.

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.060
That\'s a--

00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:52.933
-I just want to say,
you just said this, so your definition,

00:24:53.100 --> 00:24:56.460
I just heard you said something
that gives one pleasure,

00:24:56.700 --> 00:24:58.173
we would call beautiful.

00:24:58.340 --> 00:25:01.500
-That\'s why I\'m saying, it feel feels
such an inadequate sense of what it is.

00:25:01.700 --> 00:25:06.460
When you see a Gericault
painting of guillotined heads,

00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:09.540
which is horrific and you say,
\"Why is that not terribly ugly?\"

00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:12.620
But one\'s response is just,
\"God, what a gorgeous painting.\"

00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:15.013
For me, it wouldn\'t be
a contradiction to say,

00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:17.613
this is so beautiful, this is so ugly

00:25:17.780 --> 00:25:19.940
that both one could say
both of those statements

00:25:20.380 --> 00:25:22.340
and accommodate both at the same time.

00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:26.500
Beauty as a counterpoint to ugliness,
doesn\'t really work for me.

00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:32.133
[music]

00:25:32.300 --> 00:25:35.300
-A painting needs a wall to object to.

00:25:35.540 --> 00:25:41.093
[music]

00:25:41.260 --> 00:25:46.180
If you look at it, you will see
that actually she doesn\'t have a nose,

00:25:48.860 --> 00:25:51.853
because the paint
suggests certain things.

00:25:52.020 --> 00:25:54.453
You see those things,
but they are not always

00:25:54.620 --> 00:25:57.220
even really definedly there,

00:25:57.460 --> 00:26:02.013
certain things that you think you\'ve seen,
but it isn\'t actually there.

00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:06.300
I make a suggestion through the paint
and then you start to see that.

00:26:06.540 --> 00:26:15.380
[music]

00:26:15.580 --> 00:26:18.753
-Generally in the books or in paintings,
the thing that I\'m interested in,

00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.100
or that comes back to other riddles
that you can\'t completely solve,

00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:26.300
whether it\'s a formal thing,
the shape of a leaf in a Mattise painting,

00:26:26.860 --> 00:26:28.900
why is that leaf square
and the others are oval

00:26:29.340 --> 00:26:33.860
or odd riddles that are there
that don\'t quite ever make sense,

00:26:34.180 --> 00:26:38.233
but wanting to shift that
into coherence is the needle

00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.140
that keeps pulling you back
to relooking at the painting.

00:26:43.060 --> 00:26:45.533
I suppose the long-term hope
or the long-term trajectory

00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:47.053
of a lot of the films
that I make is that,

00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:49.593
they\'re neither meaningless
nor do they have a meaning

00:26:49.760 --> 00:26:51.233
that can be fixed and it\'s the belief

00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:53.360
that there is something
that is between those two.

00:26:53.580 --> 00:26:57.933
-Meaning is for me really
also a language term.

00:26:58.100 --> 00:26:59.653
Meaning comes afterwards.

00:26:59.820 --> 00:27:04.940
You give meaning to something.

00:27:05.300 --> 00:27:08.173
People write books
to explain what the work is about.

00:27:08.340 --> 00:27:12.780
Curators write statements
so people are all the time indeed

00:27:13.060 --> 00:27:17.813
using the written word
and the words actually

00:27:17.980 --> 00:27:19.460
to talk about visual things.

00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:23.020
I don\'t deny that
and I want to also play with that.

00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:30.253
Well, I hate that word in the Dutch
where they talk about artists

00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:33.493
and we say, \"You put someone
on the wrong leg or so,\"

00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:35.740
as if I deliberately want to--

00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:37.133
I know what I\'m doing,

00:27:37.300 --> 00:27:40.413
but I deliberately not going to tell you
because I\'m doing totally something else.

00:27:40.580 --> 00:27:43.180
That is not what one is talking about.

00:27:43.460 --> 00:27:46.973
Images are ambiguous in themselves.

00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:50.453
Also, I do want to give you the context,
because that was a good one

00:27:50.620 --> 00:27:54.020
in which the area
in which I\'m then thinking.

00:28:00.020 --> 00:28:04.333
This is a mixture of images
of the last photographs

00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:10.220
that some of the suicide bombers
that they had taken of themselves.

00:28:11.260 --> 00:28:15.693
They were relatively so young
and vulnerable and they decided to,

00:28:15.860 --> 00:28:16.693
\"This is the cause.\"

00:28:16.860 --> 00:28:20.180
And you also would
like to live when you are young,

00:28:20.380 --> 00:28:23.133
but among them there\'s also--

00:28:23.300 --> 00:28:27.420
This was the boyfriend
of my daughter at that time,

00:28:27.980 --> 00:28:29.933
as soon as someone gets grouped together

00:28:30.100 --> 00:28:33.700
as a group, then they all start
to look the same.

00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:35.973
It\'s not that the meaning is so open.

00:28:36.140 --> 00:28:37.353
I wouldn\'t like someone to look at them

00:28:37.520 --> 00:28:41.740
and say,
\"Oh, what horrible looking people.\"

00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:50.413
I want to at least give you
my bit of the way I see to start with,

00:28:50.580 --> 00:28:51.220
but I mean--

00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:54.493
-I suppose it\'s a question of,
can one have meaning that\'s not reductive?

00:28:54.660 --> 00:28:58.453
Can one have the idea that meaning
is as open-ended as the work itself?

00:28:58.620 --> 00:29:00.493
There\'s sometimes
incredibly different readings

00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:01.333
of the work that somebody says,

00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:06.940
\"Well, why did you draw a white woman
in that film, Felix in Exile?\"

00:29:08.020 --> 00:29:13.660
And I can say to them, \"Well, in fact,
the model for that was a black woman,

00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:16.653
but in fact the person
on the drawing is charcoal.

00:29:16.820 --> 00:29:18.300
She\'s neither black nor white.\"

00:29:19.260 --> 00:29:23.580
But in that sense
it\'s absolutely somebody seeing it

00:29:23.860 --> 00:29:24.860
in a certain way.

00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:29.093
Sometimes yes, people want them
to be different and they\'re saying,

00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:30.613
\"When you\'re drawing Johannesburg,
that\'s fine.\"

00:29:30.780 --> 00:29:32.053
As soon as you\'re
not drawing Johannesburg,

00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:33.540
you don\'t know what you\'re doing.

00:29:34.100 --> 00:29:45.893
[music]

00:29:46.060 --> 00:29:48.260
-My drawings is called Like Drawings.

00:29:48.620 --> 00:29:52.213
This is a group
where all-white-people is excluded.

00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:58.293
It\'s only black faces and the first time
it was exhibited in Holland,

00:29:58.460 --> 00:30:02.293
that immediately said,
they put it in apartheid context.

00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:08.253
They also thought that these people
were all looked like victims, for example.

00:30:08.420 --> 00:30:15.373
I exhibited in America once
and then a big black man came up to me

00:30:15.540 --> 00:30:20.693
and then he said that he thought
that it was really very strong portraits.

00:30:20.860 --> 00:30:27.013
That he hadn\'t seen such strong portraits
of people being depicted.

00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:29.933
He did not go necessarily to that.

00:30:30.100 --> 00:30:34.613
It is wonderful sometimes
that you can be surprised.

00:30:34.780 --> 00:30:36.180
-At how people see things.

00:30:36.500 --> 00:30:37.893
-The description already.

00:30:38.060 --> 00:30:40.573
How someone says,
why is it such and such?

00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:42.140
It is not such.

00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:45.300
-I just want to know,
with your paintings, with your drawings,

00:30:45.780 --> 00:30:49.060
they all have
quite specific titles associated.

00:30:49.540 --> 00:30:51.873
Do they come long after
or sometimes you have a title

00:30:52.040 --> 00:30:53.513
before the painting or halfway through?

00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:55.460
-They mostly come afterwards.

00:30:55.660 --> 00:31:03.500
[music]

00:31:03.780 --> 00:31:06.740
The painting has to be able
to carry its title.

00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:13.293
The painting of my daughter.

00:31:13.460 --> 00:31:16.693
For a long time, I knew I wanted
to paint this picture of her

00:31:16.860 --> 00:31:19.300
standing there and she spent it herself.

00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:23.533
I thought of titles
like The Noble Savage, for example.

00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:26.733
I thought but that gives all wrong--

00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:27.493
-Associations.

00:31:27.660 --> 00:31:30.533
-I don\'t really want to go that way
but I did find it interesting

00:31:30.700 --> 00:31:33.933
that she\'s very young
and that she does have this sense

00:31:34.100 --> 00:31:35.453
of wanting to paint itself.

00:31:35.620 --> 00:31:38.660
I was struggling in these different areas.

00:31:46.060 --> 00:31:50.220
It is also like the painting of the face,
the painting of the body.

00:31:50.420 --> 00:31:53.493
I also thought of Picasso,
always the male artists

00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:58.500
are painting the woman
and so she was like a stand-in for me too.

00:31:58.820 --> 00:32:02.100
I thought, okay, the painter.

00:32:13.180 --> 00:32:15.220
-The project I was interested
in when I was thinking

00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.813
about what is in the news
that\'s been and gone.

00:32:17.980 --> 00:32:20.900
What are the points of connection
of that kind of ethnic cleansing?

00:32:21.100 --> 00:32:24.460
Now, the 1935 Italian campaign
in Ethiopia.

00:32:24.780 --> 00:32:26.973
Poison mustard gas
was used against Ethiopia.

00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:29.293
Which is something that was denied
by the Italian government

00:32:29.460 --> 00:32:30.980
until very recently.

00:32:31.220 --> 00:32:34.100
In fact, it\'s still denied by parts
of the Italian military.

00:32:34.700 --> 00:32:36.973
The film itself started off
just being interested

00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:39.453
in exploring what happens
with the cylindrical mirror.

00:32:39.620 --> 00:32:42.900
If you make a film using
anamorphic projections.

00:32:43.260 --> 00:32:46.540
Was it possible to make a film the way
that these drawings work?

00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:49.940
These drawings are then filmed from above

00:32:51.060 --> 00:32:53.100
and successively altered and changed.

00:32:53.500 --> 00:32:55.853
All that happens in the film
on the side is that these images

00:32:56.020 --> 00:32:57.093
then get projected back.

00:32:57.260 --> 00:32:58.500
Where there was a drawing,

00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:00.980
there\'s now a projection
and you see it in the mirror.

00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:03.773
You can see a trace here
of the bird that flies around.

00:33:03.940 --> 00:33:06.420
That got drawn and rubbed out and filmed.

00:33:06.700 --> 00:33:09.573
The hardest part
was lifting the mirror off,

00:33:09.740 --> 00:33:11.220
which is enormously heavy

00:33:11.500 --> 00:33:13.013
between each frame, to shoot the frame

00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:15.340
and then putting it back.

00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:44.460
The drawings themselves
with animation have to happen fast.

00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:47.913
-I just realized.
They\'re also actually quick.

00:33:48.080 --> 00:33:52.500
-They have to be fast otherwise you spend
if you\'ve got to make so many alterations.

00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:54.713
One of the things I\'ve discovered
with the animation, in fact,

00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.093
if it\'s done really roughly,
even if in the moment

00:33:57.260 --> 00:33:59.180
you can hardly see
what it is you\'ve drawn,

00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:03.700
once it is in movement and projected,
it constitutes itself.

00:34:04.220 --> 00:34:05.780
You can kind of see the figure.

00:34:39.680 --> 00:34:41.740
Sometimes you know there\'s no short way.

00:34:42.020 --> 00:34:43.893
The figure is over here
and somehow he\'s got to walk

00:34:44.060 --> 00:34:45.533
to the other end of the sheet of paper.

00:34:45.700 --> 00:34:47.940
You\'ve got to erase him and redraw him.

00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:52.460
There\'s not a kind of a pleasure
of discovery in each alteration.

00:34:53.700 --> 00:34:56.053
It feels like being kind of [?]

00:34:56.220 --> 00:35:00.013
You just got to be conscientious
and do it.

00:35:00.180 --> 00:35:03.773
On the scale of animators
and the kind of obsessiveness

00:35:03.940 --> 00:35:06.620
with which some work I\'m very slip shot.

00:35:07.020 --> 00:35:09.380
Some people spend years
on a three-minute film.

00:35:09.660 --> 00:35:10.973
For me, it would be unbearable.

00:35:11.140 --> 00:35:13.533
If there\'s a sequence
which is going too slowly

00:35:13.700 --> 00:35:17.133
then I\'ll kind of compensate myself
by having an easy sequence

00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:18.933
the next day which is many seconds longer

00:35:19.100 --> 00:35:21.460
with relatively few alterations.

00:35:29.740 --> 00:35:33.453
The moment in the film I made
in which a man kisses a woman\'s hand

00:35:33.620 --> 00:35:35.620
and he needs to leave,
like an erotic gift.

00:35:36.220 --> 00:35:38.253
I said, \"Okay, we could have this horse
that\'s galloping

00:35:38.420 --> 00:35:39.780
around and around.\"

00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:42.253
I said, \"My God.
To draw that horse is going

00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:44.973
to take an hour and then
to erase it and redraw it.

00:35:45.140 --> 00:35:47.580
I\'ll be here for a week,
to get it to do one half circle.\"

00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:49.460
Whereas everybody knows
how to draw a fish

00:35:49.700 --> 00:35:52.613
and then to film it and to rub it out
and draw the fish in a new position.

00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:56.420
In half an hour you could
have a fish starting to circle the hand.

00:35:56.700 --> 00:35:58.373
In the end, the fish was
a much happier image.

00:35:58.540 --> 00:36:02.413
Also slipping off the hand as a kind
of slippery kind of half sperm,

00:36:02.580 --> 00:36:05.380
half wet thing that bounced
on the hand and dropped off.

00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:47.133
Coming back just to do
a chocolate drawing is like a treat.

00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:52.860
That\'s kind of like time off in the studio
and other projects are under control.

00:36:53.180 --> 00:36:55.800
Then to come and either work
on a small scale

00:36:56.180 --> 00:37:00.860
or on a larger scale is kind
of my application to myself.

00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:02.540
That\'s meeting an old friend.

00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:04.580
It\'s going to be a comfortable
conversation.

00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:56.213
One of the things I\'ve learned
about drawing from animating is the speed.

00:38:56.380 --> 00:39:00.493
The speed, which is a necessity
in the animation

00:39:00.660 --> 00:39:02.613
becomes a kind of a virtue in the drawing.

00:39:02.780 --> 00:39:04.820
Not a virtue, but it helps the drawing.

00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:08.693
If one gets too precious
about knuckle movements

00:39:08.860 --> 00:39:10.300
that take too long

00:39:11.060 --> 00:39:15.420
then one gets anxious
about erasing it with the wipe of a cloth.

00:39:27.500 --> 00:39:29.213
In the end, of course,
this gets solidified

00:39:29.380 --> 00:39:35.513
into a fixed final image rather
than continuing to moved off

00:39:35.680 --> 00:39:38.020
the sheet of paper or become
something else

00:39:38.220 --> 00:39:40.060
so it gets a bit more precious.

00:39:44.420 --> 00:39:46.653
One of the troubles about drawing on
the table

00:39:46.820 --> 00:39:50.013
is that there\'s not
that much new viewing of the image.

00:39:50.180 --> 00:39:52.060
You\'re watching
the same image the whole time.

00:39:52.260 --> 00:39:53.893
Whereas when you\'re animating
or when you\'ve got the drawing

00:39:54.060 --> 00:39:54.893
on the wall.

00:39:55.060 --> 00:39:55.773
It\'s a movement away.

00:39:55.940 --> 00:40:00.100
Where you can\'t see what you\'ve done
and the moment when you turn around

00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:01.740
when you see it again afresh.

00:40:03.020 --> 00:40:24.060
[music]

00:40:24.340 --> 00:40:25.893
-It\'s a mixture
both of ideas about the world,

00:40:26.060 --> 00:40:28.540
but also finding something
that meets your ideas halfway.

00:40:28.780 --> 00:40:31.373
It\'s an image that calls to be drawn,
in this case,

00:40:31.540 --> 00:40:34.700
of cameras are beautiful things
to draw as objects.

00:40:34.940 --> 00:40:37.213
-Yes, it\'s a joke,
your camera looks sexier-

00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.453
-It does.
--than your male character sometimes.

00:40:39.620 --> 00:40:43.380
[laughter]

00:40:44.860 --> 00:40:45.853
-They\'ll forgive you.

00:40:46.020 --> 00:40:49.813
-There\'s a lot of passion that\'s gone
into drawing with camera many times.

00:40:49.980 --> 00:40:59.540
[music]

00:41:00.700 --> 00:41:05.900
-It is strange for people often
because I speak about intimacy indeed

00:41:06.380 --> 00:41:10.213
and love stories
and this and that that I almost

00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:11.860
always use a photograph.

00:41:12.860 --> 00:41:16.413
I was surprised actually to see
that I almost never used

00:41:16.580 --> 00:41:17.740
the camera myself.

00:41:18.460 --> 00:41:22.773
I once made a little film only once
and I tried to walk with

00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:29.053
an old Super 8 camera
and I realized how extremely irritating.

00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:35.020
I would go like this and everything I saw,
I couldn\'t see through the lens.

00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:38.573
I have a strange relationship
with the camera itself.

00:41:38.740 --> 00:41:40.173
When the picture\'s already taken,

00:41:40.340 --> 00:41:44.420
when it is already
two dimensional reality,

00:41:44.660 --> 00:41:46.333
then I feel very free woman.

00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:49.793
There was a whole book,
I think, that also that, what\'s his name?

00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:51.260
David Hockney wrote.

00:41:51.500 --> 00:41:54.013
He says the camera is like a cyclops

00:41:54.180 --> 00:41:57.580
because it\'s got one eye
and we\'ve got two eyes,

00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:01.980
and so I thought,
\"Ooh, never thought of that before.\"

00:42:02.220 --> 00:42:05.133
[music]

00:42:05.300 --> 00:42:08.453
The last portrait
I made of Elisabeth Eybers,

00:42:08.620 --> 00:42:09.620
for example,

00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:14.333
I realized that she is now 92 years old,

00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:19.700
so this is the last part of her life
and I wanted to bring a homage to her.

00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:23.833
What expressed this for me
was the eyes were dark

00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.413
and the face was very white.

00:42:26.580 --> 00:42:30.373
It was more about
this expression of this darkness

00:42:30.540 --> 00:42:34.513
in these eyes where you\'re scared
because your time is up,

00:42:34.680 --> 00:42:35.820
but you\'re also strong.

00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:41.860
In her case, the urge to do a portrait
of her was there already,

00:42:42.100 --> 00:42:44.300
and then I found the right photograph.

00:42:44.700 --> 00:42:47.893
-You didn\'t have to decide,
is it going to be two foot by two foot,

00:42:48.060 --> 00:42:50.020
is it going to be three meters
by three meters?

00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:53.453
Then is it a question
of holding the photo in one hand

00:42:53.620 --> 00:42:55.613
or is it on a table
and you walk back to the table

00:42:55.780 --> 00:42:56.933
and look at it, and then walked away?

00:42:57.100 --> 00:43:00.493
Or you look at it and \"I\'ve seen it,
I can now just go on with the painting\"?

00:43:00.660 --> 00:43:05.973
-I often project, I project the image,
but not to get the details,

00:43:06.140 --> 00:43:08.780
I project the image
to get the composition.

00:43:09.220 --> 00:43:14.340
I will zoom in on this bit and everything
that we don\'t need have to now fall off.

00:43:14.660 --> 00:43:17.013
-I did that.
-Yes, because while you\'re saying this,

00:43:17.180 --> 00:43:20.653
I just want to say, because now it makes
me think of very old times

00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:24.020
when people would use the grid,
I never did that.

00:43:24.380 --> 00:43:28.820
[music]

00:43:29.180 --> 00:43:32.820
-I\'d been looking at Giotto
and did some drawings based on Giotto,

00:43:33.060 --> 00:43:36.173
and then cut out all the heads
to rearrange the heads

00:43:36.340 --> 00:43:37.253
and that pile of heads

00:43:37.420 --> 00:43:40.013
based on the Giotto
became Casspirs Full of Love,

00:43:40.180 --> 00:43:41.460
a series of box full of heads.

00:43:43.540 --> 00:43:45.580
[music]

00:43:45.860 --> 00:43:48.013
The Giottos are extraordinary
in the sense of crowds,

00:43:48.180 --> 00:43:50.940
where they are so much like movies,
but also like news.

00:43:51.340 --> 00:43:53.780
You think of the Massacre
of the Innocents,

00:43:54.060 --> 00:43:57.020
which has, at the bottom,
this pile of dead children,

00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:00.213
which you don\'t really see again,
can you see it in newspaper photographs,

00:44:00.380 --> 00:44:02.460
can you see it in documentary footage?

00:44:03.060 --> 00:44:05.220
[music]

00:44:05.540 --> 00:44:08.740
I\'m interested in rescuing
the idea of politics from certainty.

00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:13.060
If you\'re still talking about the world
and about power relations and things,

00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.073
within that discussion,
there needs to be a space

00:44:15.240 --> 00:44:18.053
for getting it wrong for people
not known for uncertainty

00:44:18.220 --> 00:44:21.260
and doubt and confusion
and contradiction.

00:44:22.900 --> 00:44:26.133
I\'m interested in trying to show
that lack of clarity

00:44:26.300 --> 00:44:29.340
in the terrain that is normally described
as the political.

00:44:29.660 --> 00:44:34.133
For one thing you\'ve learned
is not to trust men from the 18th century,

00:44:34.300 --> 00:44:36.460
men who assume they know
what\'s best for everyone else.

00:44:36.980 --> 00:44:39.933
As we know,
if there\'s one danger in the world,

00:44:40.100 --> 00:44:43.420
it\'s people assuming they know
what\'s best for everyone else.

00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:46.373
Sometimes I feel these
are all the extraordinary things

00:44:46.540 --> 00:44:48.620
that are happening in this country
at the moment

00:44:49.020 --> 00:44:50.733
and none of those are
in my work at the moment.

00:44:50.900 --> 00:44:52.853
I\'m thinking about something
completely different.

00:44:53.020 --> 00:44:56.733
There is a twin saying,
\"How do these things get in?

00:44:56.900 --> 00:44:57.653
Will they get in?

00:44:57.820 --> 00:44:58.773
Are they part of the work?\"

00:44:58.940 --> 00:45:01.413
I\'m not sure until I can find
a way that they feel writing it,

00:45:01.580 --> 00:45:03.613
it doesn\'t make sense.
-Yes, but I also don\'t think

00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:05.233
the artists have to.

00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.653
You can do certain things as a person.

00:45:07.820 --> 00:45:10.973
Sometimes you shoot out of respect,
leave certain things alone

00:45:11.140 --> 00:45:13.540
because they can do it
better than you can.

00:45:13.780 --> 00:45:15.973
[music]

00:45:16.140 --> 00:45:18.773
-I was drawing series of images
of people who had been killed,

00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:19.453
of dead bodies.

00:45:19.620 --> 00:45:22.293
Somebody got this whole pile
of photographs of murdered people

00:45:22.460 --> 00:45:23.260
from the police.

00:45:23.500 --> 00:45:26.053
There\'s something horrific
about that box of photographs,

00:45:26.220 --> 00:45:27.901
not something a lot that\'s horrific in it.

00:45:29.740 --> 00:45:31.273
On the one hand, said,
\"Oh, this is just cheap.\"

00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.533
You take other people\'s pain
or the other traumas

00:45:33.700 --> 00:45:35.893
and you turn it into art,
and that\'s a different question,

00:45:36.060 --> 00:45:37.820
so a real question,
but it\'s a different one.

00:45:38.900 --> 00:45:43.013
The hope was that somewhere
in the process of making the drawing

00:45:43.180 --> 00:45:44.453
and in someone looking at the drawing,

00:45:44.620 --> 00:45:47.973
is it awareness of the respect
that those hours of studying

00:45:48.140 --> 00:45:50.413
that image and turning it
from a photograph

00:45:50.580 --> 00:45:52.373
into the drawing entails?

00:45:52.540 --> 00:45:55.013
I wouldn\'t say that a drawing
of that body is more profound

00:45:55.180 --> 00:45:56.540
than the photograph of the body,

00:45:56.740 --> 00:45:58.293
but I think it can work
in a different way.

00:45:58.460 --> 00:47:17.060
[music]

00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:21.093
-Somehow it comes over sometimes
in a different way

00:47:21.260 --> 00:47:23.893
because you get a different expression

00:47:24.060 --> 00:47:26.733
while a photograph in the newspaper,
for example,

00:47:26.900 --> 00:47:30.853
is always an action has happened,
always someone is crying or so.

00:47:31.020 --> 00:47:35.140
They\'re not posing for 10 hours.

00:47:35.500 --> 00:47:39.893
I actually don\'t
like the enormous long posing thing.

00:47:40.060 --> 00:47:43.140
I also don\'t want this naked person
there with me.

00:47:43.420 --> 00:47:45.340
-For 23 hours, no.
-Yes.

00:47:45.740 --> 00:47:48.373
-In the animation, because it\'s so slow,
you can\'t really have a model.

00:47:48.540 --> 00:47:50.653
I need you to stand here
for two weeks slowly

00:47:50.820 --> 00:47:52.413
turning from this side to that side.

00:47:52.580 --> 00:47:53.900
[music]

00:47:56.180 --> 00:47:57.861
There are things
one can say about oneself,

00:47:58.620 --> 00:48:00.173
which suddenly
if you\'re saying about other people,

00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:02.093
you\'ve got to take all sorts
of responsibilities.

00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:04.733
For example, [?] act
in the character in the film,

00:48:04.900 --> 00:48:06.493
there was accusation that\'s antisemitic.

00:48:06.660 --> 00:48:09.293
Why have you drawn
this nasty person as Jewish?

00:48:09.460 --> 00:48:11.453
In a sense, it\'s just saying,
okay, I\'m going to take responsibility

00:48:11.620 --> 00:48:13.940
for that character as myself.

00:48:14.860 --> 00:48:19.893
[music]

00:48:20.060 --> 00:48:23.153
In the series Ubu Enchaîné,
Ubu already come the way

00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:25.393
that he looks from Jarry
with a spiral belly and

00:48:25.560 --> 00:48:26.493
a pointed head,

00:48:26.660 --> 00:48:29.173
a very simple childish
drawing that Jarry did.

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:32.273
I wanted to do something which both
had that as one layer

00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:35.700
like a chalk drawing
on a black ground of Jarry\'s Ubu

00:48:36.060 --> 00:48:39.020
and inside is a much
more fleshy human figure.

00:48:40.100 --> 00:48:42.293
For those edges as well,
I\'ll just take photographs

00:48:42.460 --> 00:48:44.693
of myself to use those for the reference

00:48:44.860 --> 00:48:47.733
as acting the part of Ubu
so it could be as ridiculous;

00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:50.613
naked on a bicycle,
riding around the studio,

00:48:50.780 --> 00:48:54.413
doing a crazy dance,
and naked in front of a mirror.

00:48:54.580 --> 00:48:56.960
Things that if I said I\'m going
to do a drawing of myself,

00:48:57.340 --> 00:49:00.293
I would never have dared to do
because they were so ridiculous.

00:49:00.460 --> 00:49:04.540
I think sometimes one has that sense
of drawing oneself in the third person.

00:49:04.780 --> 00:49:08.133
To say to someone,
\"Okay, what I need you to do

00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:11.533
is to take off her clothes
and here\'s my son\'s tiny bicycle,\"

00:49:11.700 --> 00:49:13.373
so your knees are going
to be up around your ears

00:49:13.540 --> 00:49:15.333
and to ride around the studio
so I can film,

00:49:15.500 --> 00:49:16.900
which I may or may not use.

00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:21.413
Sometimes I use myself,
sometimes I\'ve used Anne, my wife,

00:49:21.580 --> 00:49:27.613
who\'s been very generous about doing
these kinds of activities as parents.

00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:29.580
Whereas I think some artists it\'s fine.

00:49:30.060 --> 00:49:33.260
They call in a model and these are
the ridiculous things I need you to do.

00:49:33.940 --> 00:49:37.173
-I have used naked bodies,
again, for different reasons also.

00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:41.053
The Snow White one
also I used myself in it,

00:49:41.220 --> 00:49:45.300
but it was not an inviting painting.

00:49:45.660 --> 00:49:49.613
Then Magdalena\'s was more
about confronting, you say,

00:49:49.780 --> 00:49:50.940
\"Okay, here I am.\"

00:49:51.260 --> 00:49:57.893
[music]

00:49:58.060 --> 00:50:01.260
-I hadn\'t thought, do I draw myself mainly
or do I draw other people?

00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:04.273
If I now do a catalog in my head,
I\'m trying to catalog

00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:05.760
and go through all the different.

00:50:10.220 --> 00:50:11.693
Make note, draw other people.

00:50:11.860 --> 00:50:14.860
[laughter]

00:50:15.260 --> 00:50:16.693
Also, draw more heads.

00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:18.333
Certainly that one.
-Yes, okay.

00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:20.880
-I love drawing heads.
I\'ve done it for a long time.

00:50:21.700 --> 00:50:26.353
-My people is still immobile,
they don\'t move enough.

00:50:26.520 --> 00:50:29.613
They mostly just confront you
or they fall down dead

00:50:29.780 --> 00:50:32.420
or they show their backside,

00:50:32.780 --> 00:50:34.860
but they\'re not moving enough.

00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:46.980
[music]

00:50:47.820 --> 00:50:51.173
-I\'ve recently been looking
at some 18th-century pornography

00:50:51.340 --> 00:50:53.173
to look at what were drawings done.

00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:55.973
Really, ones familiar
with photographic pornography

00:50:56.140 --> 00:50:58.360
and how bodies join together
in the extraordinary

00:50:59.660 --> 00:51:02.773
where in which bodies shift
from being objects of desire

00:51:02.940 --> 00:51:05.093
to suddenly be pieces
of like open-heart surgery

00:51:05.260 --> 00:51:07.900
when desire becomes meat.

00:51:08.580 --> 00:51:11.693
Using some of those as models
for some drawings

00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:14.660
and some books that I\'ve been making,

00:51:14.900 --> 00:51:16.893
but there is a restraint
and I feel it needs

00:51:17.060 --> 00:51:18.180
the courage that you have.

00:51:18.460 --> 00:51:25.053
-If one wanted to make without critique,

00:51:25.220 --> 00:51:28.253
without this, but really wanted
to paint something

00:51:28.420 --> 00:51:31.693
that was for life
and pleasurable and saying,

00:51:31.860 --> 00:51:36.093
okay, sexuality is okay,
how would you do it then?

00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:37.540
What form would it take?

00:51:39.580 --> 00:51:55.700
[music]

00:51:55.940 --> 00:51:58.033
How does it feel, the whole tone of it?

00:51:58.200 --> 00:52:03.413
Not just drawing a sexual act or so,
and then also,

00:52:03.580 --> 00:52:06.300
what is the difference between,
say, if I\'m in love with you

00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:11.613
and I want to show that and the difference
between if I wasn\'t in love with you

00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:12.840
and also draw you.

00:52:13.340 --> 00:52:14.860
These type of things.

00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:20.360
Sometimes I feel I have used
pornographic poses

00:52:20.580 --> 00:52:24.573
to say something maybe
about a pleasurable experience

00:52:24.740 --> 00:52:26.820
and not so much about the porno.

00:52:27.140 --> 00:52:29.860
[music]

00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:32.893
-It\'s not so much an anxiety
about what would other people say,

00:52:33.060 --> 00:52:34.233
it\'s an anxiety about myself.

00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:36.933
If I was to be doing
these pornographic drawings,

00:52:37.100 --> 00:52:41.660
would it in fact be exactly the same;
enjoying the eroticism

00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:45.013
and the desire exactly
as they are in the photograph?

00:52:45.180 --> 00:52:46.980
Which also go
through such a transformation.

00:52:47.660 --> 00:52:51.253
You can see they\'re
based on pornographic photos,

00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:52.453
but they\'re not trying to do
the same thing

00:52:52.620 --> 00:52:53.973
that the pornographic photos do.

00:52:54.140 --> 00:52:56.253
-Yes, for example,
I saw a beautiful exhibition

00:52:56.420 --> 00:52:59.533
and a very early Chinese pornography,

00:52:59.700 --> 00:53:03.213
if you would call it that,
but what was so beautiful about them

00:53:03.380 --> 00:53:06.293
is these people,
they are doing these things,

00:53:06.460 --> 00:53:11.980
but they\'re drinking tea and the leaves
are done with the same delicacy.

00:53:12.260 --> 00:53:20.140
[music]

00:53:20.620 --> 00:53:25.133
It\'s also so interesting the difference
between those Chinese works,

00:53:25.300 --> 00:53:28.653
and then the Japanese works
because with the Japanese works,

00:53:28.820 --> 00:53:32.660
for example, of a specific period
that always have enormous.

00:53:32.900 --> 00:53:36.293
They are also very elegant,
but the men are always enormous

00:53:36.460 --> 00:53:39.133
and I\'m sure it\'s not
because the Japanese

00:53:39.300 --> 00:53:41.993
is so much more enormous
than the Chinese, but it\'s,

00:53:42.160 --> 00:53:47.760
again, also a different attitude to life.

00:53:53.740 --> 00:53:58.493
Can just say porn now or nude or deaf

00:53:58.660 --> 00:54:03.060
as if it\'s all the same
because every artist

00:54:04.700 --> 00:54:08.053
has the way they treat the whole thing.

00:54:08.220 --> 00:54:12.713
Okay, they\'re doing
sexually explicit acts,

00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:15.653
but they\'re doing it with,
as I say, with the detail

00:54:15.820 --> 00:54:20.853
of the leaves and the clothes
and little shoes is all equal

00:54:21.020 --> 00:54:23.333
to the sexual act almost.

00:54:23.500 --> 00:54:28.740
That gives a whole different
feel than, for example,

00:54:32.500 --> 00:54:38.253
this Oshitoshi guy,
but he\'s also fantastic.

00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:43.273
Here is much more always
something violent is happening.

00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:46.940
There\'s a little bird also going,
but he\'s cutting her throat

00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:50.373
like this type of seeds.

00:54:50.540 --> 00:54:53.453
My goodness,
I use this in one of my lectures.

00:54:53.620 --> 00:55:00.153
I never have any bun
at least in the bigger paintings.

00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:04.100
There\'s no one ever doing something
to somebody else.

00:55:04.300 --> 00:55:06.493
The suggestions
is that some people make up

00:55:06.660 --> 00:55:09.413
all their stories also
with many of the sexual things.

00:55:09.580 --> 00:55:15.493
Mostly you cannot see if the person
is what they are doing

00:55:15.660 --> 00:55:16.533
all this type of story.

00:55:16.700 --> 00:55:21.293
His is indeed, he\'s blowing
his own head off or something.

00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:25.820
I always say if you say to me
I make a horrific thing,

00:55:26.540 --> 00:55:29.060
in comparison to what are you saying?

00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:32.133
What is your context that you pledge?

00:55:32.300 --> 00:55:33.940
That\'s all what I mean.

00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:37.413
As I say, it\'s not that you have
to know all these things

00:55:37.580 --> 00:55:39.873
to say I\'m moved by my painting.

00:55:40.040 --> 00:55:42.813
I always have to know
because it\'s beautiful.

00:55:42.980 --> 00:55:44.653
Sometimes someone
who doesn\'t know anything

00:55:44.820 --> 00:55:50.380
can also say something extremely
meaningful or beautiful.

00:55:50.740 --> 00:55:52.693
Then you look at these things
with her hair

00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:57.100
and skirt fold in almost everything,

00:55:57.340 --> 00:55:59.813
and then comes all the other stories,
and then,

00:55:59.980 --> 00:56:03.133
oh, I get all jealous
and excited and I think,

00:56:03.300 --> 00:56:08.340
\"Oh, maybe I can still do
a painting with a dress on.\"

00:56:08.700 --> 00:56:10.853
I don\'t know what to do
with the dress still.

00:56:11.020 --> 00:56:14.533
Anyway, you see, so that aspect.

00:56:14.700 --> 00:56:17.493
That\'s when I\'m sorry when people
just think it\'s somber

00:56:17.660 --> 00:56:25.020
and it\'s this because it is also filled
with a lust for life a bit.

00:56:25.940 --> 00:56:29.493
-In one of the first from Johannesburg\'s
section, Greater City,

00:56:29.660 --> 00:56:31.533
which was made in 1989,
the films had to go

00:56:31.700 --> 00:56:36.620
before the Publications Control Board
in South Africa.

00:56:37.220 --> 00:56:39.700
I remember the report came back saying,

00:56:40.060 --> 00:56:43.780
\"The film contains scenes
of copulation and fellatio,

00:56:44.020 --> 00:56:45.833
however,
they are sufficiently badly drawn,

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:47.053
so it\'s not to cause offense.\"

00:56:47.220 --> 00:56:49.693
[laughter]

00:56:49.860 --> 00:57:21.380
[music]

00:57:32.540 --> 00:57:36.253
There are certain films
in which the technique of animation

00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:37.420
is erasure,

00:57:37.740 --> 00:57:40.653
so you have an image
and you use an eraser

00:57:40.820 --> 00:57:45.900
to remove the charcoal
to make the drawing.

00:57:47.020 --> 00:57:50.053
The other work that comes
from the theater work from Voetsek,

00:57:50.220 --> 00:57:53.133
which was the first production
in which we had paper cut out

00:57:53.300 --> 00:57:54.300
shadow figures,

00:57:55.380 --> 00:58:00.173
was arriving
at figures through tearing sheets of paper

00:58:00.340 --> 00:58:02.613
and finding what you recognized
when they were put together,

00:58:02.780 --> 00:58:04.660
the piece of paper put together.

00:58:04.900 --> 00:58:08.840
For me, that\'s a different kind
of destruction of the image

00:58:09.260 --> 00:58:11.700
or destruction of what you expect
an image to look like.

00:58:14.020 --> 00:58:25.180
A slow deformation of this nose
into a different shape is not so obvious.

00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:30.573
If you have your nose,
it\'s easy enough to animate

00:58:30.740 --> 00:58:34.180
it fragment by fragment,
shifting it, moving the nose.

00:58:37.540 --> 00:58:38.700
Moving it along.

00:58:43.660 --> 00:58:46.980
To transform it into something
else, you must probably first have to,

00:58:55.580 --> 00:59:01.060
in a sense, have to explore the fragments
as the pieces start shifting,

00:59:03.380 --> 00:59:08.940
and it can transform
and become goodness knows what.

00:59:09.860 --> 00:59:12.213
That\'s also why the tearing
is an important part

00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:13.533
because that\'s the model.

00:59:13.700 --> 00:59:18.900
That\'s the way
in which transformation is possible.

00:59:19.260 --> 00:59:32.900
[background noise]

00:59:33.180 --> 01:00:26.140
[music]

01:00:26.380 --> 01:00:28.533
At some stage, with almost all the films,

01:00:28.700 --> 01:00:29.900
there\'s a process of,

01:00:30.500 --> 01:00:34.013
I wouldn\'t call it researchers
to higher term,

01:00:34.180 --> 01:00:38.833
but there\'s a gathering
of information of visual images,

01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:41.380
of photographs of other drawing.

01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:44.673
Sometimes it was photographing
people in the poses

01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.620
that are now or the actions
I know I\'m going to need in the films,

01:00:49.580 --> 01:00:51.700
but usually,
that comes once the film has begun.

01:00:52.500 --> 01:00:55.220
If you know it\'s a beginning,
even roughly the whole arc

01:00:55.820 --> 01:00:59.580
or then I get blind to a lot
of other things that could emerge.

01:01:00.780 --> 01:01:03.093
There is a confidence that\'s come
from doing this

01:01:03.260 --> 01:01:05.433
from all these years
and the confidence is knowing

01:01:05.600 --> 01:01:07.593
that in any of the films
where there\'s been something

01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:10.220
that\'s either surprised me
or interested me,

01:01:11.420 --> 01:01:13.940
it\'s not been something I\'ve known
at the beginning of the film.

01:01:14.980 --> 01:01:18.013
It doesn\'t make me more confident
to do more and more work

01:01:18.180 --> 01:01:20.580
before the film starts,
it makes me more anxious

01:01:21.180 --> 01:01:22.893
in the sense
that I feel that every good idea

01:01:23.060 --> 01:01:24.700
I have before the film starts

01:01:25.100 --> 01:01:27.253
is going to get a band,
but it has to do with,

01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:33.420
again, finding ways to surprise or out
to get passed one\'s own predictability

01:01:33.620 --> 01:01:34.780
and one\'s own stupidity.

01:01:35.540 --> 01:01:40.420
[music]

01:01:54.820 --> 01:01:58.500
Usually, it\'s a pleasure to have things
out of the studio and gone.

01:01:58.980 --> 01:02:01.173
I don\'t have a precious attitude
to wanting to hang

01:02:01.340 --> 01:02:03.253
onto everything around me.

01:02:03.420 --> 01:02:05.773
-There we agree, absolutely.

01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:08.580
I also, I\'d rather let them go.

01:02:09.140 --> 01:02:11.580
Very pleased that they can go.

01:02:12.100 --> 01:02:15.613
There is a pleasure in the fact
that the work goes

01:02:15.780 --> 01:02:21.140
to a place or someone
that really actually wants it,

01:02:22.140 --> 01:02:24.273
but sometimes everyone
should look at them

01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:27.893
longer because
there is indeed it\'s different

01:02:28.060 --> 01:02:30.573
from the private space
to the public space

01:02:30.740 --> 01:02:33.013
because then suddenly,
there is more distance

01:02:33.180 --> 01:02:37.260
and you also see them in a different way

01:02:37.500 --> 01:02:42.013
and that there\'s definitely
a cooling off of atmosphere

01:02:42.180 --> 01:02:44.413
because when you around all your things

01:02:44.580 --> 01:02:46.860
and all your thoughts and the,

01:02:47.180 --> 01:02:52.640
the public space
is a colder space in a sense.

01:02:53.220 --> 01:02:57.413
-I quite often find on an exhibition works
that I thought were

01:02:57.580 --> 01:02:59.101
the ones I already liked in the studio

01:02:59.300 --> 01:03:01.253
are not the ones
that I really still liked at the end

01:03:01.420 --> 01:03:01.893
of the exhibition.

01:03:02.060 --> 01:03:04.933
Those which I was quite uncertain
about even putting on exhibition

01:03:05.100 --> 01:03:06.581
are the ones that seem much stronger.

01:03:06.980 --> 01:03:14.100
[background noise]

01:03:14.380 --> 01:03:19.993
It\'s not as if having lots
of exhibition stops you still being awake

01:03:20.160 --> 01:03:22.580
at 4:00 in the morning
in a panic of anxiety,

01:03:23.060 --> 01:03:25.613
the specifics of the anxiety to change.

01:03:25.780 --> 01:03:27.333
That\'s maybe not about,
\"Oh my God, is anyone ever going

01:03:27.500 --> 01:03:29.300
to buy a picture of mine,\"

01:03:30.100 --> 01:03:32.913
but it\'s still the same anxiety
is what I\'m doing actually going

01:03:33.080 --> 01:03:34.333
where it should be, is it any good?

01:03:34.500 --> 01:03:36.060
Does it make any sense?

01:03:36.260 --> 01:03:38.533
If only I hadn\'t taken on this project,
then I would be happy,

01:03:38.700 --> 01:03:40.933
but no, this one is
definitely going to be.

01:03:41.100 --> 01:03:44.653
That I think is built into the activity,
for me, certainly of being an artist.

01:03:44.820 --> 01:03:46.053
I\'d hope it will disappear,

01:03:46.220 --> 01:03:47.580
but it doesn\'t,

01:03:48.060 --> 01:03:49.813
but there\'s also no doubt
that there are so many more

01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:52.420
kinds of projects that I would like
to do are now possible,

01:03:53.220 --> 01:03:56.700
such as working in opera, working
on different scale.

01:03:57.040 --> 01:04:00.493
That brings with it its own set
of anxieties in other words.

01:04:00.660 --> 01:04:02.853
It\'s not a question
of I can do this project.

01:04:03.020 --> 01:04:05.380
That\'s different from,
should these projects be done at all?

01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:09.800
It certainly also means
that if you do something,

01:04:10.420 --> 01:04:12.213
the first impulse
of people is to look at it,

01:04:12.380 --> 01:04:13.413
to give it the time of day,

01:04:13.580 --> 01:04:16.033
rather than to dismiss it
before they\'ve actually looked at it,

01:04:16.200 --> 01:04:18.133
which is if you\'re
a young artist or starting out,

01:04:18.300 --> 01:04:19.660
that\'s generally the condition.

01:04:20.100 --> 01:04:22.773
It feels a fortunate position to be in.

01:04:22.940 --> 01:04:23.940
There\'s no doubt.

01:04:24.180 --> 01:04:27.813
-What is unfortunate is recently,

01:04:27.980 --> 01:04:31.533
because of certain auction things
that happened,

01:04:31.700 --> 01:04:35.413
so you don\'t know anymore
if someone quickly throws something

01:04:35.580 --> 01:04:38.773
on an auction if they really actually ever
liked it in the first place.

01:04:38.940 --> 01:04:41.660
I never said all these things is worth.

01:04:42.100 --> 01:04:45.780
Just because I make them, they are worth.

01:04:46.660 --> 01:04:50.453
I can be my own critic,

01:04:50.620 --> 01:04:54.133
so sometimes all kinds of things
gets on auctions.

01:04:54.300 --> 01:04:56.933
That\'s not so good
and I agree they\'re not so good,

01:04:57.100 --> 01:04:58.660
but I didn\'t put them on there.

01:04:59.420 --> 01:05:09.740
[music]

01:05:10.100 --> 01:05:13.133
When is always so terrible
I find when I have to start

01:05:13.300 --> 01:05:16.680
and I have in my head
all these things how I\'m now going

01:05:18.220 --> 01:05:20.733
to make something totally different,
and then you start

01:05:20.900 --> 01:05:27.460
and it just goes totally wrong
in its extreme mannerism and teaching.

01:05:29.460 --> 01:05:34.613
Then you do feel it works,
then it looks so easy that people say,

01:05:34.780 --> 01:05:39.020
\"Yes, she\'s lazy
because she doesn\'t do anything.\"

01:05:39.220 --> 01:05:41.493
I was very pleased to read.

01:05:41.660 --> 01:05:47.740
I never knew that once Matisse,
apart from that he\'s years ago dead,

01:05:48.140 --> 01:05:53.140
but also in a certain period of his life,
he actually showed his process.

01:05:53.380 --> 01:05:58.100
He exhibited his process
of how he got to a certain simplicity

01:05:58.780 --> 01:06:03.893
with photograph next to the work
because he wanted to show them

01:06:04.060 --> 01:06:07.173
that he didn\'t actually just go like this.

01:06:07.340 --> 01:06:13.700
I never thought man like him
would think that he needed to do that.

01:06:13.940 --> 01:06:23.140
Mostly some is new,
but many things are just rejects.

01:06:37.820 --> 01:06:41.533
This was once upon a time
Sophia Loren crying.

01:06:41.700 --> 01:06:46.440
[laughs]

01:06:47.140 --> 01:06:52.540
In this painting at a certain stage,
I kept on going because of this.

01:06:52.780 --> 01:06:57.013
It wasn\'t, obviously,
not at all Sophia Loren anymore.

01:06:57.180 --> 01:07:00.900
There was that related it all to that,
that was clear.

01:07:01.180 --> 01:07:03.260
Then I go on with the painting

01:07:03.520 --> 01:07:06.093
and I think,
\"Okay, let\'s see where it takes me.\"

01:07:06.260 --> 01:07:11.993
It goes this way, it goes that way,
and it\'s hard to want to give it up

01:07:12.160 --> 01:07:16.773
because you feel,
\"Aargh, I still would love

01:07:16.940 --> 01:07:21.580
to keep all the things I taught
you in high school.\"

01:07:22.020 --> 01:07:29.613
Is if the painting now gets
so thick that it\'s so overworked,

01:07:29.780 --> 01:07:32.620
then you can\'t get the freshness back.

01:07:32.860 --> 01:07:41.940
Here, it\'s gone this way, that way,
that way, so somehow that urgency is gone.

01:07:42.700 --> 01:07:46.820
Then it does happen in three months,
you are so pleased.

01:07:47.060 --> 01:07:49.220
It\'s like the grace
of things coming together

01:07:49.540 --> 01:07:51.820
and this is sometimes the very irritating

01:07:52.100 --> 01:07:55.853
at a certain point where you
have all these things,

01:07:56.020 --> 01:07:57.220
so you have all these.

01:07:57.460 --> 01:08:00.253
That\'s why I should immediately turn
them all around

01:08:00.420 --> 01:08:02.013
because you have
all these things around you

01:08:02.180 --> 01:08:05.860
that actually is all just very irritating.

01:08:08.820 --> 01:08:12.053
That\'s also why you don\'t even have
the show and the show looks

01:08:12.220 --> 01:08:13.700
all clean and proper,

01:08:13.980 --> 01:08:18.573
so then you get the criticism that,
yes, there\'s no struggle

01:08:18.740 --> 01:08:22.980
or nothing and you left
with all the rubbish.

01:08:24.380 --> 01:08:28.380
[music]

01:08:28.780 --> 01:08:30.773
-I was thinking what you said
the other day that one should change.

01:08:30.940 --> 01:08:35.413
Staying the same is easy,
changing is hard.

01:08:35.580 --> 01:08:36.580
Change to what?

01:08:39.060 --> 01:08:41.120
I said, should I get a private tailor?

01:08:41.340 --> 01:08:42.660
Should I start smoking cigars?

01:08:43.060 --> 01:08:45.460
Those are the things that I should change,
to get a toupee,

01:08:45.660 --> 01:08:46.900
should I become a surf bum?

01:08:47.620 --> 01:08:48.933
No. [chuckles]
-No, I don\'t want that.

01:08:49.100 --> 01:08:51.573
I want to be more disciplined,
for example.

01:08:51.740 --> 01:08:52.740
-Oh, okay.

01:08:52.940 --> 01:08:57.973
-Prepare myself before I come
to situations like this and say,

01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:00.493
\"No, thank you.
I don\'t speak in the morning\"

01:09:00.660 --> 01:09:02.493
because you are a morning person.

01:09:02.660 --> 01:09:04.253
You say, \"I\'m at a disadvantage.\"

01:09:04.420 --> 01:09:07.733
He looks much more intelligent than I
am because he\'s good to the morning,

01:09:07.900 --> 01:09:10.493
I\'m good at night,
but no one wants to speak to me

01:09:10.660 --> 01:09:13.620
and I want more power in the real sense.

01:09:14.420 --> 01:09:19.373
[music]

01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:23.333
The animal painting
if you\'re saying you\'re a big shot.

01:09:23.500 --> 01:09:36.733
[background conversation]

01:09:36.900 --> 01:09:39.573
-Here\'s an ordinary statement
about something just more recent,

01:09:39.740 --> 01:09:42.260
and then at the last minute,
it turns on its head.

01:09:42.700 --> 01:09:44.300
There\'s a bite in its head.

01:09:45.140 --> 01:09:47.653
Art and children,
keep art out of the reach of children act.

01:09:47.820 --> 01:09:48.940
Art and medicines.

01:09:49.460 --> 01:09:50.773
-It\'s not so heavy.

01:09:50.940 --> 01:09:56.960
You have to look at the language also,
relate, but anyway.

01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:03.933
I really wanted to go for my second open.

01:10:04.100 --> 01:10:05.853
-Please.
No, you must.

01:10:06.020 --> 01:10:08.140
-Please.
-Come.

01:10:08.860 --> 01:11:26.580
[music]

01:11:27.060 --> 01:11:39.740
[silence]