Pandemic Perspectives
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- Reviews
- Citation
- Cataloging
- Transcript
Pandemic Perspectives is a thoughtful window into a spectrum of key societal issues illuminated by the COVID-19 pandemic through the prism of 32 international experts in biology, education, history, law, philosophy, politics, psychology, and more. All participants were filmed remotely using local film crews during the second half of 2021.
Examples of societal issues that are addressed:
- The need to rethink current educational practices
- The future of scientific research
- The challenges of making evidence-based public policy in an age of rapid information and misinformation
- The widespread confusion about how science actually works
- The importance of balancing basic and applied research
- The implications for coherently addressing climate changeThe tension between individual liberties and communitarian ideals
- The need to critically assess the level of care in our society
- The importance of looking at history during a time of crisis
- The perils of nationalism and the necessity of thinking globally
- To what extent the pandemic has revealed our true moral nature
Below is a list of the 32 experts who have participated in Pandemic Perspectives:
- Elizabeth Anderson, Max Shaye Professor of Public Philosophy, University of Michigan
- Ann-Sophie Barwich, Assistant Professor of History and Philosophy of Science and Medicine, Indiana University Bloomington
- Roy Baumeister, Professor of Psychology, University of Queensland
- Michael Berry, Professor of Contemporary Chinese Cultural Studies, UCLA
- Christopher Celenza, James B. Knapp Dean of the Krieger School of Arts and Sciences, Johns Hopkins University
- Patricia Churchland, Emeritus Professor of Philosophy, UC San Diego
- Lorraine Daston, Director Emerita of the Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin
- John Dunn, Emeritus Professor of Political Thought, University of Cambridge
- John Dupré, Professor of Philosophy and Director of Egenis, University of Exeter
- Charles Foster, Professor of Law and Fellow of Green Templeton College, University of Oxford
- Richard Frank, Director of the USC-Brookings Schaeffer Initiative for Health Policy; Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution; Professor of Health Economics at Harvard Medical School
- Michael Frazer, Associate Professor in Political and Social Theory, University of East Anglia
- Michael Gordin, Rosengarten Professor of Modern and Contemporary History, Princeton University
- Joanna Haigh, Professor of Physics, Imperial College London
- Brian Hie, Stanford Science Fellow, Stanford University School of Medicine
- Andy Hoffman, Holcim (US), Inc. Professor of Sustainable Enterprise, University of Michigan
- Rush Holt, Former US Congressman, Current Director's Visitor, Institute for Advanced Study
- Martin Jay, Ehrman Professor of European History Emeritus, UC Berkeley
- Paul Kahn, Robert W. Winner Professor of Law and the Humanities and Director of the Orville H. Schell, Jr . Center for International Human Rights, Yale University
- Philip Kitcher, John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, Columbia University
- Fyodor Kondrashov, Professor of Evolutionary Genomics, Institute of Science and Technology, Austria
- Stephen Kosslyn, President, Active Learning Sciences; Founder and CAO Foundry College; Founding Dean Minerva Schools; Former Dean of Social Sciences Harvard University
- Darrin McMahon, Mary Brinsmead Wheelock Professor of History, Dartmouth College
- Samuel Moyn, Henry R. Luce Professor of Jurisprudence, Yale University
- Miguel Nicolelis, Professor in Neuroscience, Duke University
- Caroline Paunov, Senior Economist and Head of Secretariat for the Working Party on Innovation and Technology Policy, OECD
- Alexandre Quintanilha, Member of Portuguese Parliament; Former Director of the Instituto de Biologia Molecular e Celular, University of Porto
- Teofilo Ruiz, Distinguished Research Professor of History, UCLA
- Stephen Scherer, Chief of Research at The Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto
- John Tregoning, Reader in Respiratory Infections, Faculty of Medicine, Imperial College
- Gavin Yamey, Director of the Center for Policy Impact in Global Health, Duke Global Health Institute, Duke University
- Yong Zhao, Foundation Distinguished Professor in the School of Education, University of Kansas & Professor in Educational Leadership, Melbourne Graduate School of Education
"In this brilliant and unsettling film Burton takes us where others fear to go, probing deep into the causes of the causes, exposing the sloppiness of our thinking and making us smash up our tired, worn paradigms." — Charles Foster, University of Oxford
"Pandemic Perspectives presents a unique window into responses — institutional, personal, and communal — to the COVID-19 pandemic. Conversations with people in different fields of endeavor turn into something more, when viewed together: a paean to human creativity and resilience, even in the midst of a devastating pandemic." — Christopher Celenza, James B. Knapp Dean, Johns Hopkins University
"The SARS-COV-2 pandemic stopped the world. This film tells us how we might restart it, and perhaps do better next time around. The interviews make the viewer think long and hard about how we got ourselves into this mess, what we can learn from it, and what it says about us as a species." — Lorraine Daston, Director Emerita Max Planck Institute for the History of Science
"A unique document that will be a resource for future students of the pandemic and reactions to it for many years."—Martin Jay, UC Berkeley
Citation
Main credits
Burton, Howard (film director)
Burton, Howard (creator)
Other credits
Cinematography, Edmund Berkey [and others]; editor, Ruth Barnwood [and 3 others].
Distributor subjects
Sociology,epidemiology,medicine,history of science,philosophy,political science,history of medicine,philosophy of science,philosophy of medicine,psychology,law,ethics,politics,history,education,respiratory infections,policy Impact in global health,biology,Chinese cutural studies,Aging and Geriatrics,Bioethics,biology,Civil Rights,Global Issues,Government Policy,Guidance and Counseling,Healthcare,Medicine and Nursing,International Relations and Geopolitics,Psychology and Mental HealthKeywords
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(music)
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- [Howard Burton] When
the COVID-19 pandemic
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exploded in early 2020,
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the last thing I imagined doing
was to make a film about it.
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Like everyone, my first
reaction was to simply hope
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that we could put the whole
thing quickly behind us
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and return to normal.
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But as the crisis dragged on,
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I began to appreciate that the pandemic,
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for all of its obvious pain and suffering,
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also represented a sort of opportunity.
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A brutally jolting worldwide timeout
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that could, if properly harnessed,
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provide us with an
intriguing vantage point
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to reexamine a wide variety
of core societal issues
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that had long been assumed to
be fundamentally unchangeable.
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After all, the one thing the pandemic
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so explicitly demonstrated to all of us
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was how suddenly everything could change,
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virtually overnight.
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And so I began to contact
a wide variety of experts
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to see if they'd be willing to share
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their candid reflections
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on what these last two
years have taught us
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and how we might, conceivably,
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find a way to somehow benefit
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from this seemingly never-ending crisis.
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Of course, finding insightful
voices is one thing,
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but filming them during a global pandemic
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is most definitely quite another.
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Filmmakers naturally make a
big deal about visual mood
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and shot to shot consistency,
even in a documentary format.
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But when you're scrambling
to remotely film
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32 different people in
32 different locations
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with 32 different types of
camera and audio setups,
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kludging together freelancers, volunteers,
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institutional facilities,
and more often than not,
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a couple of mobile phones on tripods,
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all of that necessarily
goes quickly out the window.
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So if you're looking
for a visually stunning
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cinematic masterpiece, I'm
afraid you'll be disappointed.
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You'll be disappointed too
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if you're looking for one
simple synoptic message
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to take away from all of this.
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When you talk to 32 different people,
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you get 32 different perspectives.
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Some reinforce each
other while others don't.
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But all are measured, thoughtful,
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and very much worth hearing.
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(music)
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I sit as the Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences
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at Johns Hopkins University.
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And in one respect, I think
that universities have
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needed to respond with all of their,
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I would say, epistemic muscle.
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Johns Hopkins, for example,
the School of Engineering
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developed a map of COVID that
has been in use worldwide.
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It's become more or
less the go-to resource
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for tracking cases.
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So in that sense I think
that sort of expertise
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has been very welcome.
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I think that universities that
have been able to be nimble
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have done quite well.
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On the other hand, I think
that universities are part of
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- in the US especially,
perhaps worldwide -
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a diminution in trust of institutions
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that's taken place over the
last two or three decades.
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Universities are sometimes stigmatized
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as bastions of elite knowledge
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that aren't of use to common people.
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So because of that universities,
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even as they provide
tremendously useful information,
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universities have to work even harder now
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to make sure that in a time of pandemic
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when we do offer information to the public
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that the information is
trustworthy, that it's transparent.
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I think we need to do the best we can
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not to give the impression
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that we're just pronouncing
on what's knowledge.
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We have to be able to show
people how we got there.
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I think part of our task
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in the next 10 to 15
years in universities -
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and again the pandemic I
think has sped this up -
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is we've got to get better
at talking to the public.
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Not only about the work that we do
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but why we do the work we do
and how we do the work we do.
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The ways that we educate students,
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that really has to become
part of their education.
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In other words, we must
get away from the idea
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that students are passive
recipients of knowledge
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that's generated elsewhere.
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Students have to become
part of the enterprise
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of generating knowledge.
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They have to become knowledge makers
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as well as knowledge receivers.
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I suspect that this generation that
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you might call "the pandemic
generation of young people"
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are going to develop a level of resilience
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and a level of maturity
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that will down the road
serve them well in life.
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It's not been fun for them
at all, it's been difficult.
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We know that the pivot
that many universities made
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to switch to online learning
in the course of the pandemic,
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something necessary for health reasons,
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was not always as effective
as in-person learning.
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What I've noticed in our students
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here and elsewhere that I've been,
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is a tremendous sense of adaptability,
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a discovery of resilience
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I don't think maybe even
they knew that they had.
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And in general a sense that
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being part of a team is a good thing.
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Here at Johns Hopkins
our students have been,
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I would say, really,
really, really attentive
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to the health conditions.
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They've been willing to jump
in and follow the guidelines
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that our public health experts recommended
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because they really
knew, I think, right away
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that doing so would
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allow us to get back to as
close to normal as we could,
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as soon as possible as we could.
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The onset of the pandemic caused a huge experiment.
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Many, many instructors who
had no training whatsoever
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in using online technology to
teach suddenly had no choice.
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It turned out
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that some of them discovered
there were things they could do
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that were actually easier to do online
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than they were to do in the
traditional in-person setting.
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In particular the thing that fascinates me
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is a lot of "active learning".
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Some people think of active
learning as learning by doing
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which I don't.
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I think doing is too broad,
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it includes just sitting
around discussing things
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with no particular goal in mind.
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I like to think of active
learning as learning by using.
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So you get some information
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and then you do something with it,
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with that information,
with a goal in mind.
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It's very easy to do this online,
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particularly in synchronous settings
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where you can have small groups
when you give them a task
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and they've got to use the
information they just got
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in some particular way.
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Setting up for debate,
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for roleplay solving
some kind of a problem,
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producing some kind of document,
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various other kinds that are active.
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And, when they do that,
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you can have a record of what they did
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that can be delivered
immediately that can be assessed
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and they can get feedback.
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All this can happen actually
remarkably quickly online
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in a way that was very
difficult to do in person.
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I would have hoped that
with all the parents
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looking over the shoulders of
their children studying online
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that the parents would come to appreciate
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what educators are trying to do.
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But, as far as I can tell
from reading and talking
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to various people, that's
not happened very much.
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I think part of the reason for that
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is a lot of what goes on in
education behind the scenes
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stays behind the scenes.
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One positive outcome from
the onset of the pandemic
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is that - because online
education has become so common -
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it's possible to do experiments.
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It's possible to try things
out and measure their effects
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and many of the things we can try out
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can be based in the science of learning.
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The science of learning has
straightforward implications
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for the kinds of active learning
you can do easily online.
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For the kinds of ways
of setting up a debate,
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setting up role play,
setting up problem solving,
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et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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We can do those things easily now
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in ways that were really
quite difficult to do
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prior to the use of the technology.
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The COVID-19 pandemic has caused significant disruptions.
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Schools were closed, teachers
would teach through remote
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learning, students have
to do remote learning.
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Also, many countries have
stopped standardized testing,
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including college admissions tests.
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These stops of policies and
practices create a space
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for teachers and students to imagine
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what education can be because before
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we've always talked about
how education cannot change
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because of the traditional conventions
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and traditional practices and policies.
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I don't think people have
taken advantage of the
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opportunities created by the
pandemic to rethink education.
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By and large many schools are
eager to return to normal,
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to deliver education in the
classroom as they did before.
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So I think a call for
government, for policy-makers,
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for teachers, for school leaders
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and even parents and students,
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to rethink education is very
necessary at this moment.
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When you're in this pandemic,
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people are thinking about the pandemic.
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People are thinking a lot
about how it closes schools,
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doesn't close schools
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but we have not got together to imagine
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what the future could be.
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That is what I hope human beings can do
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is to think about the future,
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to think how do we create a better future
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instead of just lamenting
the current situation.
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I think the future of education
needs to focus on students
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as self-determined learners.
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They should be the
owner of their learning,
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they also should be globally connected.
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My hope will definitely be that the general public
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has a better appreciation
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of the course of scientific research,
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a better appreciation for uncertainty.
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Because as we go through the pandemic,
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people will communicate
that they don't know
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the effects of certain mutations
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or the course of different events
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and how they need more time
to acquire that information.
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Also sometimes, months into the pandemic
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some of the experts
will say, "We were wrong
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originally about what we had said."
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So I think hopefully the general public
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now has a better appreciation
of kind of the uncertainty
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and the process of doing science.
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That it's not talking to an oracle
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who gives you all of the
information perfectly.
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Maybe some of the pandemic process
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has illuminated the imperfections
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or the ongoing process of science.
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And then hopefully, I think,
the pandemic illustrates
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just the need for scientific
research more broadly.
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The science was really great.
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We had a scientific infrastructure
for viral surveillance
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with a lot of viral sequence
data already available
00:12:05.624 --> 00:12:08.828
in which to train our
machine learning models.
00:12:08.828 --> 00:12:13.099
We had a lot of work into
the mechanisms of viral host
00:12:13.099 --> 00:12:15.634
membrane fusion and viral infection.
00:12:15.634 --> 00:12:19.271
So when the pandemic hit that
scientific infrastructure
00:12:19.271 --> 00:12:21.073
was just mustered immediately.
00:12:26.479 --> 00:12:28.380
I think one of the most striking things
00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:31.083
is how far we've come in the last 100 years.
00:12:31.217 --> 00:12:34.553
If we look back to the
Spanish flu pandemic of 1918,
00:12:34.553 --> 00:12:36.555
there were 100 million deaths.
00:12:36.555 --> 00:12:38.891
People didn't know what
had caused the infection
00:12:38.891 --> 00:12:40.259
or how to treat it.
00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:42.294
We move forward into the 2020s and
00:12:42.294 --> 00:12:46.398
we know the causative agent
within 50 days of it emerging.
00:12:46.398 --> 00:12:48.400
We had vaccines within 100 days,
00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:50.169
they were rolled out within one year.
00:12:50.169 --> 00:12:54.140
So there's an enormous leap
forward in our technology
00:12:54.140 --> 00:12:56.375
and our understanding
of infectious diseases
00:12:56.375 --> 00:12:59.311
that has led to very different ways
00:12:59.311 --> 00:13:01.914
of dealing with this pandemic
from previous outbreaks.
00:13:02.782 --> 00:13:05.618
I think there has been a slight
risk of gravitational pull
00:13:05.618 --> 00:13:07.953
of a lot of biomedical research
00:13:07.953 --> 00:13:09.522
heading into a single direction,
00:13:09.522 --> 00:13:11.257
into this one field of COVID.
00:13:11.257 --> 00:13:13.125
I think that has drawn resources
00:13:13.125 --> 00:13:15.628
and people away from other fields
00:13:15.628 --> 00:13:18.531
which may be slightly
damaging in the long run.
00:13:18.531 --> 00:13:21.500
One of the biggest challenges
is that it has further
00:13:21.500 --> 00:13:23.702
deepened inequalities in the field,
00:13:23.702 --> 00:13:26.005
particularly people with young families
00:13:26.005 --> 00:13:28.274
have really struggled to do
their research in this time.
00:13:28.274 --> 00:13:30.609
I think we may see holes in people's CVs
00:13:30.609 --> 00:13:33.345
which will damage their
ability to kind of progress
00:13:33.345 --> 00:13:35.481
in the next few years.
So there's been a kind of
00:13:35.481 --> 00:13:37.483
some people have done
extremely well out of it
00:13:37.483 --> 00:13:40.953
and a lot of people have
had a very challenging time.
00:13:40.953 --> 00:13:43.322
So that's something that
will need to be addressed.
00:13:43.322 --> 00:13:45.257
One of the things that we've seen
00:13:45.257 --> 00:13:48.060
is a restoration of trust in scientists.
00:13:48.060 --> 00:13:50.796
There's been a number of
surveys recently showing that
00:13:50.796 --> 00:13:52.464
scientists are kind of more trusted
00:13:52.464 --> 00:13:54.600
on the basis of the pandemic.
00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.369
We need to carry on in
the public engagement
00:13:57.369 --> 00:13:59.305
and public communication around science.
00:13:59.305 --> 00:14:02.842
There may be a risk of
it tipping into cult-like
00:14:02.842 --> 00:14:03.843
"following the science"
00:14:03.843 --> 00:14:06.078
rather than kind of
critically thinking about
00:14:06.078 --> 00:14:07.580
what the science means
00:14:07.580 --> 00:14:10.115
and how it impacts on our daily lives.
00:14:10.115 --> 00:14:12.818
It's revealed the depth
of things we don't know.
00:14:12.818 --> 00:14:16.488
We don't really understand
how people get infected
00:14:16.488 --> 00:14:19.358
and who gets infected
and who gets more sick.
00:14:19.358 --> 00:14:22.328
But we've also seen how
far we've progressed
00:14:22.328 --> 00:14:24.797
in developing technologies
like vaccines and drugs
00:14:24.797 --> 00:14:26.065
to treat the people who are sick.
00:14:26.065 --> 00:14:30.436
So I think it's emphasized the
development of the technology
00:14:30.436 --> 00:14:32.137
but it's also opened up a lot more
00:14:32.137 --> 00:14:33.606
interesting research questions
00:14:33.606 --> 00:14:36.308
to look at over the next 10-20 years.
00:14:41.647 --> 00:14:43.682
I'm really interested in this question of
00:14:43.682 --> 00:14:47.820
the impact of the pandemic on scientific research.
00:14:48.187 --> 00:14:50.756
I come from a long traditional training
00:14:50.756 --> 00:14:53.626
of 'you do your laboratory work
00:14:53.626 --> 00:14:58.297
and you have your eureka
moment close to the data,
00:14:58.297 --> 00:15:00.833
interacting with other colleagues'.
00:15:00.833 --> 00:15:04.403
In fact, we designed our
research institute here
00:15:04.403 --> 00:15:06.405
at the Hospital for
Sick Children in Toronto
00:15:06.405 --> 00:15:08.207
really under that model:
00:15:08.207 --> 00:15:10.576
maximize collaboration and interaction.
00:15:10.576 --> 00:15:13.345
The rule that I was always
taught after having studied
00:15:13.345 --> 00:15:16.248
some of the greatest
institutions around the world is
00:15:16.248 --> 00:15:18.517
you hire the smartest people,
00:15:18.517 --> 00:15:22.354
support them and then
have the best coffee room
00:15:22.354 --> 00:15:24.356
to allow them to integrate and share ideas
00:15:24.356 --> 00:15:28.160
so these eureka moments
pop up spontaneously.
00:15:28.160 --> 00:15:31.630
Now we have at least half of
our staff working from home
00:15:31.630 --> 00:15:33.332
and we're communicating by Zoom
00:15:33.332 --> 00:15:35.901
and, you know, telephone
and things like this.
00:15:35.901 --> 00:15:38.470
So I really wonder what's going to happen.
00:15:39.405 --> 00:15:41.874
The other thing that was
really interesting was
00:15:41.874 --> 00:15:45.311
how the scientific community came together
00:15:45.311 --> 00:15:46.712
really quickly,
00:15:46.712 --> 00:15:51.116
at least those working on
genetic aspects of the pandemic.
00:15:51.116 --> 00:15:53.686
Here at SickKids Hospital
we're involved in
00:15:53.686 --> 00:15:56.221
a national project across Canada
00:15:56.221 --> 00:15:59.625
where we're sequencing the
genomes of 10,000 Canadians
00:15:59.625 --> 00:16:02.962
who were infected by SARS-CoV-2
00:16:02.962 --> 00:16:06.298
and typically had a
severe clinical outcome.
00:16:06.298 --> 00:16:08.534
There were other projects going on
00:16:08.534 --> 00:16:11.103
in most of the major
countries around the world
00:16:11.103 --> 00:16:16.108
and within a year we were
already combining data to do
00:16:16.208 --> 00:16:20.646
very highly powered,
large-scale genetic studies
00:16:20.646 --> 00:16:24.283
to look at the contribution of genetics
00:16:24.283 --> 00:16:27.186
to the susceptibility to the virus.
00:16:27.186 --> 00:16:28.587
And then at the same time, the technology
00:16:28.587 --> 00:16:32.424
developed to sequence
the viral genome itself.
00:16:32.424 --> 00:16:33.826
You've heard all the different names
00:16:33.826 --> 00:16:35.461
that have come out for different variants
00:16:35.461 --> 00:16:37.763
from Delta to Omicron now.
00:16:37.763 --> 00:16:40.299
I think there's over a million
different viral sequences
00:16:40.299 --> 00:16:41.967
in a public database now.
00:16:41.967 --> 00:16:45.371
And then the hosts of the
human genomes we've done,
00:16:45.371 --> 00:16:48.741
they're getting upwards of 100,000 or so
00:16:48.741 --> 00:16:52.811
and we're all sharing
this data around the world
00:16:52.811 --> 00:16:54.847
in very careful ways -
00:16:54.847 --> 00:16:58.550
they're all based on
consented participants
00:16:58.550 --> 00:17:00.986
But the sharing has
happened really quickly
00:17:00.986 --> 00:17:02.788
and the databases were put in place
00:17:02.788 --> 00:17:05.457
and the methods and the legal agreements
00:17:05.457 --> 00:17:07.593
and we're starting to
see really an impact.
00:17:07.593 --> 00:17:09.528
So I think this is going to be important
00:17:09.528 --> 00:17:10.863
for the pandemic itself
00:17:10.863 --> 00:17:13.599
but also just to influence
how science will play out
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.100
over the next decade or so.
00:17:20.806 --> 00:17:24.476
My normal point of comfort
00:17:24.476 --> 00:17:27.579
in the chronology of the history of science
00:17:27.679 --> 00:17:30.349
is somewhere back in the 18th century
00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:33.685
which I consider to be the
best of all possible centuries.
00:17:33.685 --> 00:17:38.690
But the pandemic has catapulted
me into the Modern Era
00:17:40.025 --> 00:17:44.997
because it seemed to me that
when confronted with two crises
00:17:47.566 --> 00:17:50.069
of global dimensions,
00:17:50.069 --> 00:17:54.873
the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic
and climate change,
00:17:54.873 --> 00:17:58.577
it wasn't the United
Nations, it wasn't the G8,
00:17:58.577 --> 00:18:03.148
it wasn't any other international
consortium of governments
00:18:03.148 --> 00:18:07.986
that diagnosed the problem
and worked toward a solution.
00:18:07.986 --> 00:18:12.958
It was rather the very
loose, never official,
00:18:14.326 --> 00:18:19.198
always precarious international
governance of science
00:18:19.198 --> 00:18:21.733
and I became very interested
00:18:21.733 --> 00:18:25.938
in how that international
governance structure came about
00:18:25.938 --> 00:18:30.576
against all the odds and
also how it is sustained
00:18:30.576 --> 00:18:35.414
in the face of virulent nationalism
00:18:35.414 --> 00:18:39.418
and fierce competition among scientists.
00:18:39.418 --> 00:18:44.356
So the pandemic did change
the direction of my research
00:18:44.356 --> 00:18:48.160
and I'm now in the thick
of trying to understand
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.864
the first international
scientific cooperations
00:18:51.864 --> 00:18:53.565
and scientific organizations
00:18:53.565 --> 00:18:56.235
of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
00:18:57.336 --> 00:18:59.171
As chance would have it,
00:18:59.171 --> 00:19:02.674
I was finishing a book
on the history of rules
00:19:03.642 --> 00:19:08.647
in 2020 when the pandemic
broke over us like a storm.
00:19:08.881 --> 00:19:13.886
And what happened
thereafter taught me so much
00:19:14.086 --> 00:19:18.357
about how you can "un-anchor" rules,
00:19:18.357 --> 00:19:23.362
you can not only disqualify,
undermine this or that rule
00:19:24.496 --> 00:19:29.468
you can create a
situation in which no rule
00:19:29.468 --> 00:19:32.004
has any hold on us anymore.
00:19:33.872 --> 00:19:36.975
That was a shuddery experience
00:19:38.177 --> 00:19:42.648
which I still haven't digested
but I don't think I'm alone
00:19:42.648 --> 00:19:47.452
in this experience of a kind
of social and moral earthquake
00:19:47.452 --> 00:19:50.055
or feeling the ground shift beneath you.
00:19:55.294 --> 00:19:57.362
It's a difficult balancing act.
00:19:57.629 --> 00:20:01.800
Knowledge takes time as we
have seen in this pandemic,
00:20:01.800 --> 00:20:05.571
new variants are appearing over time
00:20:05.571 --> 00:20:10.576
yet politics requires action.
00:20:10.576 --> 00:20:13.412
It doesn't have the luxury of time.
00:20:13.412 --> 00:20:15.614
And so trying to balance
00:20:15.614 --> 00:20:20.619
this continuous accumulation
of knowledge, new knowledge,
00:20:20.619 --> 00:20:25.524
with how politics and how
governments act is not easy.
00:20:25.524 --> 00:20:29.828
It's also very clear that
knowledge isn't just data.
00:20:29.828 --> 00:20:33.732
Data has to be selected in
order to become information.
00:20:33.732 --> 00:20:37.336
Information has to be
digested to become knowledge.
00:20:37.336 --> 00:20:41.006
And if we're lucky - and it
doesn't happen all the time-
00:20:41.006 --> 00:20:43.275
we gain some wisdom out of it.
00:20:43.275 --> 00:20:47.713
It takes time. Politics doesn't
have the luxury of time.
00:20:47.713 --> 00:20:49.014
Because I'm in Portugal
00:20:49.014 --> 00:20:53.452
and because the Portuguese
experience has been in my opinion
00:20:53.452 --> 00:20:55.120
a success story,
00:20:55.120 --> 00:20:58.190
I think it's worth spending
a little bit of time
00:20:58.190 --> 00:21:00.792
telling you why I think
the Portuguese experience
00:21:00.792 --> 00:21:02.227
has been a success story.
00:21:02.227 --> 00:21:04.196
It has to do with trust.
00:21:04.196 --> 00:21:06.832
The government did something
00:21:06.832 --> 00:21:10.902
which I think ought to
be reproduced everywhere,
00:21:10.902 --> 00:21:13.472
which I think is the main reason
00:21:13.472 --> 00:21:18.110
for the trust it has developed
over the months and years
00:21:18.110 --> 00:21:19.845
that we've been inflicted
with this pandemic.
00:21:19.845 --> 00:21:22.914
And that is to have weekly meetings -
00:21:22.914 --> 00:21:25.484
meetings between members
of the government,
00:21:25.484 --> 00:21:27.552
between parliamentarians,
00:21:27.552 --> 00:21:30.222
between experts in various areas,
00:21:30.222 --> 00:21:32.758
you know, mathematicians, epidemiologists,
00:21:32.758 --> 00:21:34.426
medical doctors, nurses -
00:21:34.426 --> 00:21:37.429
every week bringing all
these people together
00:21:37.429 --> 00:21:41.033
to look at the data and
to try to understand
00:21:41.033 --> 00:21:45.370
what we were getting as
information from other countries
00:21:45.370 --> 00:21:47.205
and other parts of the world.
00:21:47.205 --> 00:21:50.776
And this was usually shown on TV
00:21:50.776 --> 00:21:52.778
where the people present
00:21:52.778 --> 00:21:55.580
would answer questions from the media.
00:21:55.580 --> 00:21:58.850
I think this was a very,
very important step.
00:21:58.850 --> 00:22:03.488
In other words it made sure
that the general public
00:22:03.488 --> 00:22:06.758
was aware that there was dialogue
00:22:06.758 --> 00:22:08.960
but even more importantly,
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:13.265
that sometimes some questions
didn't have answers.
00:22:13.265 --> 00:22:16.968
There were some issues that we
simply didn't know the answer
00:22:16.968 --> 00:22:19.171
to and we had to be clear about that.
00:22:19.171 --> 00:22:23.442
We had to be clear about having
to adopt certain strategies
00:22:23.442 --> 00:22:25.977
that could have to be reversed
00:22:25.977 --> 00:22:28.246
if we'd have more data in the future.
00:22:28.246 --> 00:22:30.582
You don't do this overnight.
00:22:30.582 --> 00:22:33.685
You need to have structures in place
00:22:33.685 --> 00:22:38.657
that help to build trust in society.
00:22:38.690 --> 00:22:43.695
I think this is one of
the very positive results
00:22:43.795 --> 00:22:46.498
of a government and a society
00:22:46.498 --> 00:22:49.735
that after 300 years of inquisition
00:22:49.735 --> 00:22:52.170
and half a century of a dictatorship
00:22:52.170 --> 00:22:55.774
has decided that the sharing of knowledge
00:22:55.774 --> 00:23:00.412
and the sharing of information
in different domains
00:23:00.412 --> 00:23:04.015
is important to deal with a
public crisis such as this.
00:23:09.054 --> 00:23:13.125
The pandemic has made a perennial problem - the problem of
00:23:13.425 --> 00:23:14.526
who has a moral claim,
00:23:14.526 --> 00:23:18.563
who has legitimacy to
authority, to rule over others,
00:23:18.563 --> 00:23:21.500
to command and rightfully be obeyed -
00:23:21.500 --> 00:23:24.302
it's given a new urgency to that problem
00:23:24.302 --> 00:23:29.307
because it's really shown
us just how much we rely
00:23:29.608 --> 00:23:33.345
on expertise in order to survive.
00:23:33.345 --> 00:23:35.647
So there's been a tension between
00:23:35.647 --> 00:23:40.652
two different, really valid
in their own ways, claims
00:23:41.887 --> 00:23:43.555
to legitimacy.
00:23:43.555 --> 00:23:47.426
The first is the claim on
the part of the governed
00:23:47.426 --> 00:23:49.694
themselves. To govern themselves.
00:23:49.694 --> 00:23:54.699
The democratic claim that
only autonomy, only self-rule
00:23:55.634 --> 00:23:57.369
can ultimately be justified.
00:23:57.369 --> 00:24:01.039
That rule of some over others can't be.
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:06.044
The other is the claim that
knowledge gives authority.
00:24:06.411 --> 00:24:10.015
That if you know what
the right thing to do is,
00:24:10.015 --> 00:24:14.519
then it's simply in the
interest of those who don't know
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:16.855
to obey those who do.
00:24:17.823 --> 00:24:22.828
And those two claims - both
of which seem like they're
00:24:24.129 --> 00:24:26.498
valid, are in deep
tension with one another.
00:24:26.498 --> 00:24:29.334
But when you're dealing
with a global pandemic,
00:24:29.334 --> 00:24:32.137
when so many lives are at stake,
00:24:32.137 --> 00:24:35.407
the claim of expertise becomes stronger
00:24:35.407 --> 00:24:38.977
while at the same time the
pushback by the governed
00:24:38.977 --> 00:24:41.613
that only they have the
right to govern themselves
00:24:41.613 --> 00:24:43.482
also becomes stronger.
00:24:43.482 --> 00:24:45.517
A large part of the problem now
00:24:45.517 --> 00:24:48.587
is that rather than there being one
00:24:48.587 --> 00:24:52.123
agreed-upon set of experts,
00:24:52.123 --> 00:24:57.128
instead anyone who wants to
can publicly or anonymously
00:24:57.329 --> 00:25:00.131
if they so choose - "QAnonymously" even -
00:25:01.066 --> 00:25:03.201
claim to be an expert
00:25:03.201 --> 00:25:07.005
and put forward any sort of
crackpot theory that they want
00:25:07.005 --> 00:25:11.376
and on social media they
will find a following.
00:25:12.911 --> 00:25:15.180
As a result of that,
00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:20.185
the level of disagreement
over who the experts are
00:25:21.686 --> 00:25:24.456
has increased significantly.
00:25:24.456 --> 00:25:27.192
Forget the problem of not
being able to figure out
00:25:27.192 --> 00:25:29.494
whether ivermectin is
an effective treatment
00:25:29.494 --> 00:25:30.695
for coronavirus.
00:25:30.695 --> 00:25:33.665
We aren't even successfully
able to figure out
00:25:33.665 --> 00:25:38.003
who has the expertise to know the answer.
00:25:38.003 --> 00:25:39.538
It's a second-order problem
00:25:39.538 --> 00:25:41.206
as much as a first-order problem.
00:25:41.206 --> 00:25:42.874
It's not the answer to the question.
00:25:42.874 --> 00:25:45.310
It's who knows the answer to the question.
00:25:45.310 --> 00:25:46.978
And social media
00:25:46.978 --> 00:25:49.681
which lacks the sort
of official gatekeepers
00:25:49.681 --> 00:25:52.517
who decide who's an expert
traditionally and who's not
00:25:52.517 --> 00:25:54.252
has made the problem all the worse.
00:25:59.090 --> 00:26:00.358
We're currently living
00:26:00.358 --> 00:26:03.628
in a very extreme form of populist democracy
00:26:03.795 --> 00:26:07.465
by which I mean a democracy
in which politicians
00:26:07.465 --> 00:26:10.969
represent not in the classical sense
00:26:10.969 --> 00:26:12.771
like thinkers like J.S. Mill
00:26:12.771 --> 00:26:15.407
by being the people you
want to think for you
00:26:15.407 --> 00:26:16.741
and make decisions
00:26:16.741 --> 00:26:20.111
but by being the people who
exactly think what you think.
00:26:20.111 --> 00:26:25.116
This of course is fairly
disastrous for many reasons
00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:31.289
in the circumstances we're now living in.
00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:34.960
I think people sometimes think
of themselves as customers
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:36.394
of the social media.
00:26:36.394 --> 00:26:39.431
A social media is providing
them with a service
00:26:39.431 --> 00:26:43.735
and forget that they aren't
actually paying for it.
00:26:43.735 --> 00:26:45.303
If they thought a little bit more about
00:26:45.303 --> 00:26:46.571
why they aren't paying for it,
00:26:46.571 --> 00:26:49.541
they've come to realize
what is surely the truth
00:26:49.541 --> 00:26:53.011
is that they're not customers
they're actually the product.
00:26:53.011 --> 00:26:55.080
They are the commodity.
00:26:55.080 --> 00:26:59.084
Information about them
specifically is the commodity
00:26:59.084 --> 00:27:03.588
and is being paid for
by the actual customers
00:27:03.588 --> 00:27:05.056
of social media.
00:27:05.056 --> 00:27:06.958
I think the only solution to that
00:27:06.958 --> 00:27:11.696
is to change the whole business model
00:27:11.696 --> 00:27:16.635
to prevent the commodification
of all the information
00:27:16.635 --> 00:27:17.836
that people share
00:27:17.836 --> 00:27:21.873
and turn the users of
social media into customers
00:27:21.873 --> 00:27:25.176
as opposed to products.
00:27:25.176 --> 00:27:30.181
I think the pandemic has
brought home just how toxic
00:27:31.349 --> 00:27:35.186
this intermingling of
neoliberal individualism,
00:27:35.186 --> 00:27:40.191
populist democracy and a
commercialized social media are.
00:27:40.291 --> 00:27:45.296
To have this absolute
commercialization of information
00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:49.200
in a way that's entirely
divorced from fact,
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.237
at the same time as a crisis as serious
00:27:52.237 --> 00:27:57.208
and requiring people to
respond to good information
00:27:57.776 --> 00:28:00.211
and change their behavior in radical ways
00:28:00.211 --> 00:28:03.648
in response to that information
has been disastrous.
00:28:03.648 --> 00:28:07.118
It's a rehearsal for the
even more existential
00:28:07.118 --> 00:28:09.087
crisis of climate change
00:28:09.087 --> 00:28:12.624
where we will have the same
needs for behavioral change
00:28:12.624 --> 00:28:16.928
and we're already seeing the same ability
00:28:16.928 --> 00:28:19.864
to ignore scientific fact
00:28:19.864 --> 00:28:22.967
because people's sources of information
00:28:22.967 --> 00:28:27.372
are just disconnected from truth.
00:28:32.544 --> 00:28:35.380
The greatest lesson that has come out of this pandemic
00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:39.918
is that no amount of scientific expertise
00:28:40.318 --> 00:28:43.788
is a substitute for public engagement.
00:28:43.788 --> 00:28:48.426
You can have all the excellent
research in epidemiology
00:28:48.426 --> 00:28:52.430
and vaccines and molecular biology
00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:55.567
but if the public doesn't buy in,
00:28:55.567 --> 00:29:00.572
they won't take the vaccines,
we can't control a pandemic
00:29:01.206 --> 00:29:06.211
and this example is
applicable in every part
00:29:06.244 --> 00:29:09.214
of democracy in a technical age.
00:29:09.214 --> 00:29:14.219
The public must feel that they
have a buy-in to the process
00:29:16.321 --> 00:29:19.090
that gives rise to the decisions.
00:29:19.090 --> 00:29:22.527
I've seen this as a member
of Congress for 16 years
00:29:22.527 --> 00:29:24.195
again and again.
00:29:24.195 --> 00:29:25.330
If the public
00:29:25.330 --> 00:29:28.767
doesn't feel that they
have a part in the process,
00:29:28.767 --> 00:29:30.301
they won't trust it
00:29:30.301 --> 00:29:33.371
and in many cases they just
won't obey the regulations
00:29:33.371 --> 00:29:34.706
or the laws.
00:29:34.706 --> 00:29:38.209
The goal of a democracy
of any government really
00:29:38.209 --> 00:29:43.214
is not to get "the" right
answer on every decision
00:29:43.281 --> 00:29:46.217
but to get workable answers.
00:29:46.217 --> 00:29:50.421
And workable answers
depend on the involvement
00:29:50.421 --> 00:29:52.190
of the governed.
00:29:52.190 --> 00:29:56.060
Many people are applauding the science
00:29:56.060 --> 00:29:58.296
and say, "We will follow the science."
00:29:58.296 --> 00:29:59.831
President Biden says that,
00:29:59.831 --> 00:30:01.699
Vice President Harris says that,
00:30:01.699 --> 00:30:05.403
all my former colleagues in
Congress, well, not all of them,
00:30:05.403 --> 00:30:08.006
half of my former colleagues in Congress
00:30:08.006 --> 00:30:10.675
say, "We trust the scientists
00:30:10.675 --> 00:30:13.111
and therefore we will
follow their guidance
00:30:13.111 --> 00:30:15.747
on social distancing, on masks.
00:30:15.747 --> 00:30:18.183
We will take the vaccines," and so forth.
00:30:18.183 --> 00:30:22.887
But a segment that is much
too large does not trust it.
00:30:22.887 --> 00:30:26.257
And if you're going to
stamp out a pandemic,
00:30:26.257 --> 00:30:27.926
you have to have the participation
00:30:27.926 --> 00:30:31.129
not of 40 or 50% of the population,
00:30:31.129 --> 00:30:34.599
but 70 or 80 or 90% of the population.
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:36.334
And we don't have that.
00:30:37.268 --> 00:30:42.273
The scientists must understand
that they work for the public
00:30:44.042 --> 00:30:49.047
not for themselves, not even
for this ideal of science.
00:30:49.714 --> 00:30:53.818
The whole reason they should
want to promote the ideal
00:30:53.818 --> 00:30:57.822
of science is so that the public
00:30:57.822 --> 00:31:01.326
will have a better
understanding of how things are.
00:31:01.326 --> 00:31:04.362
And therefore the public
will be in a better position
00:31:04.362 --> 00:31:07.932
to make the decisions that
are important in their lives.
00:31:07.932 --> 00:31:11.669
So the scientists have
to come down a little bit
00:31:11.669 --> 00:31:13.738
from their high horse.
00:31:13.738 --> 00:31:16.941
They must put aside
00:31:16.941 --> 00:31:20.845
some of the traditional
scientific arrogance
00:31:20.845 --> 00:31:25.817
and invite the public
in to their processes.
00:31:26.217 --> 00:31:29.087
And the public, for their part,
00:31:29.087 --> 00:31:32.523
must hold the scientists accountable.
00:31:32.523 --> 00:31:35.426
They must say, "Where's the evidence?"
00:31:35.426 --> 00:31:39.430
On any public matter of import,
00:31:39.430 --> 00:31:44.435
whether it's vaccine policy
or transportation policy.
00:31:45.136 --> 00:31:48.306
They must ask what's the evidence.
00:31:53.711 --> 00:31:55.246
The notions of science and pseudoscience
00:31:55.246 --> 00:31:58.850
have been bandied around quite a bit during this pandemic
00:31:58.850 --> 00:32:01.619
and they've been banded
around on both sides.
00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:04.255
Everybody is convinced that
what they're doing is science
00:32:04.255 --> 00:32:07.258
and what the other side
is doing is pseudoscience.
00:32:07.258 --> 00:32:11.129
So that in itself is a useful insight
00:32:11.129 --> 00:32:15.600
which is that pseudoscience
isn't a self-ascribed category
00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:16.501
at any point.
00:32:16.501 --> 00:32:19.304
No one thinks what they're
doing is pseudoscience.
00:32:19.304 --> 00:32:24.075
And that symmetry between
people's perceptions of themselves
00:32:24.075 --> 00:32:25.143
I think is important.
00:32:25.143 --> 00:32:28.513
It enables you to actually
understand where the other side,
00:32:28.513 --> 00:32:31.049
whatever that other
side is, is coming from.
00:32:31.049 --> 00:32:34.585
That is not the same thing as
saying, "They are the same,"
00:32:34.585 --> 00:32:36.621
and that both sides have their own science
00:32:36.621 --> 00:32:39.057
and both sides are correctly ascribing
00:32:39.057 --> 00:32:43.227
some kind of marginalized,
demonized fringe status
00:32:43.227 --> 00:32:44.362
to the other side.
00:32:44.362 --> 00:32:47.832
There are differences between
what counts as science
00:32:47.832 --> 00:32:49.500
and what doesn't count as science.
00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:52.603
But I think a historically
informed perspective shows you
00:32:52.603 --> 00:32:54.639
a number of things that are
distinctively brought out
00:32:54.639 --> 00:32:55.573
by the pandemic.
00:32:55.573 --> 00:32:57.875
These aren't new but they are,
00:32:57.875 --> 00:33:00.178
in a sense the volume is turned up on them
00:33:00.178 --> 00:33:02.647
because of the nature of the pandemic.
00:33:02.647 --> 00:33:06.985
And the fact that science is
constantly in the news cycle
00:33:06.985 --> 00:33:08.486
in some form or other
00:33:08.486 --> 00:33:10.655
and people are continually exposed to it.
00:33:10.655 --> 00:33:13.858
The major thing that I think
that the pandemic reveals
00:33:13.858 --> 00:33:16.828
is that most people's
perceptions of what science is,
00:33:16.828 --> 00:33:20.264
is substantially more static
than science actually is.
00:33:20.264 --> 00:33:23.034
Some of it actually is pretty stable.
00:33:23.034 --> 00:33:24.635
Atoms exist, water is H2O,
00:33:25.703 --> 00:33:27.872
various features of how
photosynthesis works,
00:33:27.872 --> 00:33:29.574
those things are pretty settled
00:33:29.574 --> 00:33:32.510
but large parts of science
are highly dynamic.
00:33:32.510 --> 00:33:34.445
That is the nature of
what science is doing
00:33:34.445 --> 00:33:38.082
is it's trying to critique
past knowledge, deepen it
00:33:38.082 --> 00:33:40.184
or in many cases refute it.
00:33:40.184 --> 00:33:43.154
What we're seeing with
a case like COVID-19,
00:33:43.154 --> 00:33:44.322
especially at the very beginning,
00:33:44.322 --> 00:33:46.391
is knowledge was extremely uncertain.
00:33:46.391 --> 00:33:48.626
So a large number of
claims were being made
00:33:48.626 --> 00:33:51.062
by credentialed scientists
who had done a lot of research
00:33:51.062 --> 00:33:52.964
which turned out to be wrong.
00:33:52.964 --> 00:33:56.701
And if you assume that
science is in fact a stable,
00:33:56.701 --> 00:34:00.038
focused category that doesn't
actually change over time
00:34:00.038 --> 00:34:02.874
and you hear credentialed
scientists changing their mind,
00:34:02.874 --> 00:34:05.243
you think that that person is not credible
00:34:05.243 --> 00:34:08.846
as opposed to they are reporting
a deeper, more nuanced,
00:34:08.846 --> 00:34:11.549
more accurate understanding
than what they had before
00:34:11.549 --> 00:34:12.817
and that what they're saying now
00:34:12.817 --> 00:34:15.820
has a certain degree of
uncertainty behind it
00:34:15.820 --> 00:34:19.057
and might in fact be
refuted in the future.
00:34:19.057 --> 00:34:20.358
Over the last 20 years,
00:34:20.358 --> 00:34:22.994
historians of science have
increasingly paid attention
00:34:22.994 --> 00:34:24.529
to the sciences of childhood.
00:34:24.529 --> 00:34:27.799
Trying to look at the history
of developmental psychology,
00:34:27.799 --> 00:34:31.335
the history of child behavior,
trying to understand children
00:34:31.335 --> 00:34:34.405
not only as, in a sense,
mini-scientists themselves
00:34:34.405 --> 00:34:35.573
discovering the world,
00:34:35.573 --> 00:34:38.376
but how the science of
understanding the young
00:34:38.376 --> 00:34:42.113
has evolved over time especially
across the 20th century.
00:34:42.113 --> 00:34:43.181
The equivalent I would like to see
00:34:43.181 --> 00:34:47.485
is an attention to the old
which is not as prominent.
00:34:47.485 --> 00:34:50.488
The science of geriatrics, the
science of aging in general
00:34:50.488 --> 00:34:52.123
whether in animals or in people,
00:34:52.123 --> 00:34:55.259
given that the COVID-19
pandemic is substantially
00:34:55.259 --> 00:34:57.095
more damaging to the elderly,
00:34:57.095 --> 00:35:02.100
the frailty of elder health is
very much a topic of concern
00:35:02.366 --> 00:35:06.204
and the rising load of
Alzheimer's and Parkinson's cases
00:35:06.204 --> 00:35:09.173
as the population ages globally
00:35:09.173 --> 00:35:11.142
is something that should have
made us aware of this before.
00:35:11.142 --> 00:35:14.078
I think the COVID-19
pandemic has the potential
00:35:14.078 --> 00:35:16.114
of orienting people to think about
00:35:16.114 --> 00:35:18.483
that segment of the population
00:35:18.483 --> 00:35:19.784
and historians of science, I think,
00:35:19.784 --> 00:35:21.385
could have a role to play there.
00:35:27.725 --> 00:35:29.460
What you often saw in the newspapers
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:32.964
was the surprise of people about how fast science has become.
00:35:33.197 --> 00:35:36.267
"Fast science" that
we are overwhelmed by,
00:35:36.267 --> 00:35:38.469
frankly I don't agree with that narrative.
00:35:38.469 --> 00:35:41.806
I don't think science has
become faster in that sense.
00:35:41.806 --> 00:35:43.841
What we've been exposed to is science and
00:35:43.841 --> 00:35:46.677
how it's been actually
done on a day-to-day basis.
00:35:46.677 --> 00:35:49.147
The uncertainties, the
constant developments,
00:35:49.147 --> 00:35:51.616
the shifting of perspectives,
the shifting of evidence,
00:35:51.616 --> 00:35:53.217
the discordance of evidence.
00:35:53.217 --> 00:35:56.020
We've been framing our
understanding of science, how
00:35:56.020 --> 00:35:59.390
we evaluate the scientific
process, the scientific method
00:35:59.390 --> 00:36:02.360
and success of science
by finished science.
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:04.929
Most of our ideas come from episodes
00:36:04.929 --> 00:36:06.797
of the history of science
that are finished.
00:36:06.797 --> 00:36:08.533
Newton, Darwin et cetera.
00:36:08.533 --> 00:36:11.936
But if we look at ongoing
science, it is of course
00:36:11.936 --> 00:36:15.072
changeable and the public
basically has been exposed to the
00:36:15.072 --> 00:36:16.974
kitchen rather than the
meal in a restaurant.
00:36:16.974 --> 00:36:19.877
So one thing that I do think
what we need to teach much more
00:36:19.877 --> 00:36:21.779
is "science as a process"
00:36:21.779 --> 00:36:24.448
rather than just episodes
from the history of science
00:36:24.448 --> 00:36:26.517
in order to say, "This is science."
00:36:26.517 --> 00:36:27.351
That's one thing.
00:36:27.351 --> 00:36:28.386
The other thing is
00:36:28.386 --> 00:36:32.156
we've kind of forgotten
about the participation
00:36:32.156 --> 00:36:34.192
in the knowledge process of science
00:36:34.192 --> 00:36:36.527
and in the democratic aspect of science
00:36:36.527 --> 00:36:39.130
because we don't really
know how science works.
00:36:39.130 --> 00:36:40.831
We're basically not
looking at for instance
00:36:40.831 --> 00:36:42.567
the quest of how do certain things work,
00:36:42.567 --> 00:36:44.502
how do certain algorithms work.
00:36:44.502 --> 00:36:46.103
They have an impact on us,
00:36:46.103 --> 00:36:48.406
for instance when it
comes to the increasing
00:36:48.406 --> 00:36:52.143
implementation of algorithms
in for instance social policies
00:36:52.143 --> 00:36:53.444
when it comes to health care,
00:36:53.444 --> 00:36:56.614
when it comes to benefit
distribution et cetera.
00:36:56.614 --> 00:36:58.916
We don't know how these
algorithms work very well
00:36:58.916 --> 00:37:00.551
in a general population.
00:37:00.551 --> 00:37:01.485
So we need both.
00:37:01.485 --> 00:37:04.255
We need a better understanding
of science as a process
00:37:04.255 --> 00:37:07.225
as well as the actual concepts of science
00:37:07.225 --> 00:37:10.394
to allow people for kind
of democratic participation
00:37:10.394 --> 00:37:13.064
in science in a public discourse.
00:37:13.064 --> 00:37:16.601
I think the most surprising
aspect of the pandemic for me
00:37:16.601 --> 00:37:19.704
was to what extent we have this huge gap
00:37:19.704 --> 00:37:23.341
between our understanding of
human cognition and the brain
00:37:23.341 --> 00:37:25.876
and the actual policies being done.
00:37:25.876 --> 00:37:29.046
So on the one hand we have
these incredible insights
00:37:29.046 --> 00:37:31.549
into the fact that humans
are social creatures
00:37:31.549 --> 00:37:33.217
and the effect on their brains.
00:37:33.217 --> 00:37:35.653
So we saw for instance to what extent
00:37:35.653 --> 00:37:39.423
social isolation or isolation
from social circumstances
00:37:39.423 --> 00:37:42.026
elicits reactions in the human brain
00:37:42.026 --> 00:37:44.795
that resemble hunger and starvation.
00:37:44.795 --> 00:37:47.231
We also saw to what extent
people for instance,
00:37:47.231 --> 00:37:48.332
when they're in the same room,
00:37:48.332 --> 00:37:50.701
when they're involved in
the same kind of task,
00:37:50.701 --> 00:37:53.271
it leads to an alignment
of neural oscillations.
00:37:53.271 --> 00:37:55.573
The human brain is really a social organ.
00:37:55.573 --> 00:37:58.442
On the other hand, we've
got this policy making that
00:37:58.442 --> 00:38:01.045
suddenly put people in complete isolation
00:38:01.045 --> 00:38:03.781
without any adjustment
of what that might mean
00:38:03.781 --> 00:38:05.816
for human cognition, interaction,
00:38:05.816 --> 00:38:08.319
the development of humans
- especially young children
00:38:08.319 --> 00:38:11.455
who need actually a social
interaction to find themselves.
00:38:11.455 --> 00:38:14.058
There's this big difference
between all we have
00:38:14.058 --> 00:38:16.394
science and evidence-based policies
00:38:16.394 --> 00:38:19.497
and then a lot of science
that has not been included
00:38:19.497 --> 00:38:21.966
as if we're not taking
the theoretical results
00:38:21.966 --> 00:38:23.668
and experimental results from the lab,
00:38:23.668 --> 00:38:27.004
from social neuroscience
into actual policy making.
00:38:27.004 --> 00:38:28.639
That gap I think needs to be bridged
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.108
and I was surprised that
it has been neglected.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.151
I think it is a worry that because
00:38:40.518 --> 00:38:44.789
so much of science
has been really directed towards
00:38:44.789 --> 00:38:47.358
certain aspects of the pandemic,
00:38:47.358 --> 00:38:51.195
that people will see
science as essentially
00:38:51.195 --> 00:38:52.663
in the applied business
00:38:52.663 --> 00:38:56.200
and will kind of forget
about the importance
00:38:56.200 --> 00:38:58.135
of basic research.
00:38:58.135 --> 00:39:02.440
In 1990 it was declared
rather optimistically
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:06.444
that the 1990s would be
the decade of the brain.
00:39:06.444 --> 00:39:09.447
It didn't really produce much at all
00:39:09.447 --> 00:39:12.416
in the way of deep understanding
00:39:12.416 --> 00:39:15.286
of any of the neurological disorders.
00:39:15.286 --> 00:39:17.221
Why was that?
00:39:17.221 --> 00:39:20.691
Well, the answer seems to be that NIH,
00:39:20.691 --> 00:39:23.194
National Institute of Health,
00:39:23.194 --> 00:39:27.932
is really focused on issues
concerning human health.
00:39:27.932 --> 00:39:31.268
So when the evaluators
of grant applications
00:39:31.268 --> 00:39:37.575
saw an application that said
'we want to develop a new tool
00:39:37.808 --> 00:39:42.680
so that we can record from,
let's say, 500 neurons at a time
00:39:42.813 --> 00:39:44.648
they couldn't see how to justify
00:39:44.648 --> 00:39:47.351
the relationship between that project
00:39:47.351 --> 00:39:51.956
and, say, results bearing
on Lou Gehrig's disease.
00:39:52.156 --> 00:39:54.658
And so they tended not to fund them.
00:39:54.658 --> 00:39:57.595
So the decade of the brain didn't really
00:39:57.595 --> 00:39:59.764
do what we had hoped it would do.
00:40:00.131 --> 00:40:05.102
But in the Obama administration,
someone had the idea
00:40:05.102 --> 00:40:08.739
that there should be a special funding
00:40:08.739 --> 00:40:11.776
for a program they wanted to call "BRAIN".
00:40:12.076 --> 00:40:15.846
This was a brilliant strategy
00:40:15.846 --> 00:40:20.217
because all of a sudden the
many engineers and physicists
00:40:20.217 --> 00:40:24.155
who had been kind of waiting in the wings, unfunded,
00:40:24.155 --> 00:40:27.992
hoping to develop new technologies
00:40:27.992 --> 00:40:28.993
got funding.
00:40:28.993 --> 00:40:32.863
And they worked in teams
with neuroscientists.
00:40:32.863 --> 00:40:36.133
And at one point early on,
00:40:36.133 --> 00:40:41.138
it was thought wouldn't it
be wonderful if in 10 years
00:40:41.439 --> 00:40:45.242
people in this program developed techniques
00:40:45.242 --> 00:40:50.114
so that in 10 years we could
record from 1,000 neurons at a time
00:40:51.115 --> 00:40:54.452
The answer is: in five years it happened.
00:40:54.852 --> 00:40:57.555
It's almost like there was this sort of
00:40:57.555 --> 00:41:00.424
damning back of inventiveness
00:41:00.424 --> 00:41:03.027
that just suddenly flooded forth.
00:41:03.027 --> 00:41:08.032
So it's a kind of wonderful
example just within neuroscience
00:41:08.532 --> 00:41:10.968
of how doing pure research,
00:41:10.968 --> 00:41:14.038
developing a technique
where you can't quite see
00:41:14.038 --> 00:41:17.875
how the path is going to
go to the practical outcome
00:41:17.875 --> 00:41:20.044
but developing it because god damn,
00:41:20.044 --> 00:41:23.781
you're so curious about it
and you think it can be done
00:41:23.781 --> 00:41:25.649
and you're sure you're going to find a way
00:41:25.649 --> 00:41:26.917
and lo and behold you do.
00:41:32.523 --> 00:41:35.259
An interesting development that we've seen with
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:39.430
the COVID-19 crisis
has been the development
00:41:39.430 --> 00:41:43.067
and the success of mRNA vaccines.
00:41:43.067 --> 00:41:44.969
This is particularly interesting
00:41:44.969 --> 00:41:49.507
when it comes to discussing
applied versus basic research
00:41:49.507 --> 00:41:52.243
because the research of mRNA
00:41:52.243 --> 00:41:56.313
originally was not aimed
at producing vaccines
00:41:56.313 --> 00:42:01.151
to address COVID-19. It was
basic, experimental research,
00:42:01.151 --> 00:42:04.255
the efforts and the research purpose
00:42:04.255 --> 00:42:06.490
was to use it and apply mRNA
00:42:06.490 --> 00:42:09.827
in the context of dealing with cancer.
00:42:09.827 --> 00:42:11.929
Now what happened during
the COVID pandemic
00:42:11.929 --> 00:42:14.098
was a discovery that the mRNA techniques
00:42:14.098 --> 00:42:18.335
were particularly suitable to
developing COVID-19 vaccines.
00:42:18.335 --> 00:42:20.271
So you could say on that side
00:42:20.271 --> 00:42:23.107
what we have seen is a clear illustration
00:42:23.107 --> 00:42:27.745
on how supporting research
without a clear final objective
00:42:27.745 --> 00:42:30.881
has been particularly useful and important
00:42:30.881 --> 00:42:33.984
and that mRNA is really
illustrating the benefit
00:42:33.984 --> 00:42:36.487
of providing and supporting research
00:42:36.487 --> 00:42:39.690
even if you cannot show
when you start the research,
00:42:39.690 --> 00:42:42.526
what its end purpose and
its end application will be.
00:42:48.032 --> 00:42:50.367
I think that we don't do enough basic research.
00:42:50.534 --> 00:42:53.837
Obviously I say this as
somebody who does basic research
00:42:53.837 --> 00:42:57.908
but there are a lot of
scientists who talk about this.
00:42:57.908 --> 00:43:00.311
There's this push to try to get us to
00:43:00.311 --> 00:43:01.612
quote-unquote cure cancer
00:43:01.612 --> 00:43:05.649
or to solve the problem
with antibiotic resistance
00:43:05.649 --> 00:43:07.851
or do this disease, do that disease.
00:43:08.752 --> 00:43:12.356
And there's a great value
in this research as well.
00:43:12.356 --> 00:43:14.224
I don't think that all
research should be basic
00:43:14.224 --> 00:43:17.728
but I think that the only
way to do basic research
00:43:17.728 --> 00:43:21.031
is to actually have a good
funding support for it
00:43:21.031 --> 00:43:24.535
and to be able to have people
who do do the basic research
00:43:24.535 --> 00:43:26.136
to feel comfortable
00:43:26.136 --> 00:43:28.472
that they're not going to be
out of a career in three years
00:43:28.472 --> 00:43:30.708
because they haven't cured
some disease by that point.
00:43:30.708 --> 00:43:34.912
So in that sense there has
to be a lot of governmental
00:43:34.912 --> 00:43:37.881
investment in basic research,
more than in applied research
00:43:37.881 --> 00:43:40.317
because - again, as we've seen
with this pandemic as well -
00:43:40.317 --> 00:43:42.252
applied research in some cases
00:43:42.252 --> 00:43:44.088
can be done quite well by companies
00:43:44.088 --> 00:43:46.457
who are endowed by other financial means.
00:43:46.457 --> 00:43:47.558
So I do worry
00:43:47.558 --> 00:43:50.828
that this trend will be
strengthened by this pandemic:
00:43:50.828 --> 00:43:54.198
in getting more scientists to
think about applying things
00:43:54.198 --> 00:43:56.133
even though you cannot have,
00:43:56.133 --> 00:43:58.335
I mean and everybody I
think would agree with this,
00:43:58.335 --> 00:44:01.238
you cannot have only an
applied science program
00:44:01.238 --> 00:44:02.606
without the basic one.
00:44:02.606 --> 00:44:05.209
So how will the governments
be impacted by this?
00:44:05.209 --> 00:44:06.010
I don't know.
00:44:06.010 --> 00:44:10.814
I hope that basic research
will continue to be funded
00:44:10.814 --> 00:44:13.183
and will continue to
be valued but I worry,
00:44:13.183 --> 00:44:16.020
I worry about this impact.
00:44:16.020 --> 00:44:17.755
This pandemic highlights
00:44:17.755 --> 00:44:21.925
that we are truly, really
all in the same boat.
00:44:21.925 --> 00:44:25.663
Prior to this pandemic, I
think a lot of individuals,
00:44:25.663 --> 00:44:27.564
especially I think a lot of scientists,
00:44:27.564 --> 00:44:29.933
could have approached
living their daily life
00:44:29.933 --> 00:44:32.036
with this kind of mentality,
00:44:32.036 --> 00:44:35.606
like 'Okay, well, my neighbor
thinks that the earth is flat
00:44:35.606 --> 00:44:38.676
but it doesn't really impact
me. Who really cares?'
00:44:38.676 --> 00:44:40.844
We were kind of used to
00:44:40.844 --> 00:44:44.615
countries having their own
individual, local solutions
00:44:44.615 --> 00:44:46.250
and sometimes disastrous solutions.
00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:48.452
Having all these kinds
of contained problems
00:44:48.452 --> 00:44:50.054
within the global community.
00:44:50.054 --> 00:44:52.423
And this pandemic highlighted both things
00:44:52.423 --> 00:44:54.491
that are not really sustainable.
00:44:55.459 --> 00:44:59.763
That it is actually a problem
if a lot of your neighbors
00:44:59.763 --> 00:45:01.965
believe that the earth is flat.
00:45:01.965 --> 00:45:04.501
Maybe not an immediate
problem, but I mean eventually
00:45:04.501 --> 00:45:05.769
this might become a problem.
00:45:05.769 --> 00:45:09.440
If those neighbors are refusing
to wear a mask or vaccinate,
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.075
this is an immediate problem.
00:45:11.075 --> 00:45:13.777
It is really, again, an immediate problem
00:45:13.777 --> 00:45:17.214
when there is not enough vaccine
equity in the distribution
00:45:17.214 --> 00:45:18.115
across countries.
00:45:18.115 --> 00:45:21.185
It's a problem if in
affluent Western communities,
00:45:21.185 --> 00:45:22.986
a large fraction of the population
00:45:22.986 --> 00:45:24.988
continues to refuse to vaccinate.
00:45:24.988 --> 00:45:27.458
So to me what was the most striking thing
00:45:27.458 --> 00:45:30.728
is that as big as we think this world is,
00:45:30.728 --> 00:45:31.995
we're really in this together.
00:45:31.995 --> 00:45:34.565
There're not going to be local
solutions to the pandemic.
00:45:34.565 --> 00:45:36.400
It's not like this one
particular continent
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:39.103
or one particular country
or one particular community
00:45:39.103 --> 00:45:41.872
could write it out while
the rest of the world
00:45:41.872 --> 00:45:43.173
does something different.
00:45:43.173 --> 00:45:46.143
Hopefully we will be
able to learn from this
00:45:46.143 --> 00:45:50.647
and to then apply this
particular disaster and crisis
00:45:50.647 --> 00:45:52.850
to another upcoming disaster and crisis
00:45:52.850 --> 00:45:55.319
which is of course the
climate change crisis.
00:46:00.591 --> 00:46:03.427
I look at COVID as a test of our institutions.
00:46:03.727 --> 00:46:07.464
Some held, some bent and some broke.
00:46:07.464 --> 00:46:09.266
It's a trial run
00:46:09.266 --> 00:46:11.568
for how do we deal with an
issue like climate change
00:46:11.568 --> 00:46:15.439
or species extinction or
any globally important issue
00:46:15.439 --> 00:46:17.941
that requires collective
action on human beings
00:46:17.941 --> 00:46:19.176
around the earth.
00:46:19.176 --> 00:46:23.013
I don't know if it's coincidental
but the level of attention
00:46:23.013 --> 00:46:25.582
in the corporate sector
right now on climate change
00:46:25.582 --> 00:46:26.950
is something I've never seen before.
00:46:26.950 --> 00:46:29.052
I've been teaching this
for almost 30 years.
00:46:29.052 --> 00:46:30.888
I've never seen this level of attention
00:46:30.888 --> 00:46:32.122
to an environmental issue.
00:46:32.122 --> 00:46:36.026
I've never seen so many jobs
right now for our students
00:46:36.026 --> 00:46:37.828
with the word "sustainability" in it.
00:46:37.828 --> 00:46:41.498
It is changing and in
many ways, to my mind,
00:46:41.498 --> 00:46:45.736
it's a recognition that
corporations are shifting
00:46:45.736 --> 00:46:49.907
their focus - not all but some
- are shifting their focus
00:46:49.907 --> 00:46:52.609
from just a Milton Friedman kind of idea
00:46:52.609 --> 00:46:55.913
that their sole purpose is to
make money for the shareholder
00:46:55.913 --> 00:46:59.716
to recognizing that they have
an important role to play
00:46:59.716 --> 00:47:02.085
in solving society's problems.
00:47:02.085 --> 00:47:04.188
We can see that more and more Paul Polman,
00:47:04.188 --> 00:47:05.722
the former CEO of Unilever
00:47:05.722 --> 00:47:08.358
has been pushing this
idea of net positive.
00:47:08.358 --> 00:47:10.227
I see it coming more and more
00:47:10.227 --> 00:47:13.063
that corporations are starting to say,
00:47:13.063 --> 00:47:14.131
"What role do we have
00:47:14.131 --> 00:47:16.667
as one of the most powerful
institutions on earth
00:47:16.667 --> 00:47:19.570
to solve climate change,
solve income inequality,
00:47:19.570 --> 00:47:21.305
solve COVID?"
00:47:21.305 --> 00:47:26.310
We can look at the vaccine
as an historic achievement
00:47:26.510 --> 00:47:28.078
and it came out of the corporate sector.
00:47:28.078 --> 00:47:29.146
You can't deny that.
00:47:29.146 --> 00:47:31.815
So we can look at that with some optimism.
00:47:31.815 --> 00:47:35.652
We can also look and say, "This
is also going coincidentally
00:47:35.652 --> 00:47:38.522
with a recognition of the
power of social media companies
00:47:38.522 --> 00:47:41.859
and their ability to sow
division in our society."
00:47:41.859 --> 00:47:43.894
So there are some interesting questions
00:47:43.894 --> 00:47:47.931
that have yet to play out and
that's the important thing.
00:47:47.931 --> 00:47:51.768
We are in a period of flux
but it's not path dependent.
00:47:51.768 --> 00:47:53.904
Many voices are coming
in to try and decide
00:47:53.904 --> 00:47:56.106
where we come out at the other end.
00:47:56.106 --> 00:48:01.044
We will in time be different
because of this experience
00:48:01.044 --> 00:48:02.279
and that involves government,
00:48:02.279 --> 00:48:04.581
it involves the for-profit sector,
00:48:04.581 --> 00:48:06.583
it involves the non-profit sector,
00:48:06.583 --> 00:48:08.552
it involves individual citizens.
00:48:13.891 --> 00:48:15.459
I've known about this for years.
00:48:15.459 --> 00:48:17.895
Since well before COVID-19 appeared
00:48:18.061 --> 00:48:21.064
A global pandemic was on the risk register
00:48:21.064 --> 00:48:25.636
with a 1–5% chance of
happening within 12 months.
00:48:25.636 --> 00:48:26.470
Not only that
00:48:26.470 --> 00:48:29.907
but it was also at the most
serious level of impact.
00:48:29.907 --> 00:48:32.276
So the government knew fully well
00:48:32.276 --> 00:48:34.678
that a pandemic was possible, likely
00:48:34.678 --> 00:48:37.281
and potentially really bad.
00:48:37.281 --> 00:48:38.215
So when it came
00:48:38.215 --> 00:48:40.918
and they appeared to be
completely clueless -
00:48:40.918 --> 00:48:42.986
am I getting too
political here? (laughs) -
00:48:42.986 --> 00:48:44.588
completely clueless about what to do,
00:48:44.588 --> 00:48:46.556
it was really shocking.
00:48:46.556 --> 00:48:47.891
Really shocking.
00:48:48.091 --> 00:48:50.327
It's not a zero-sum game.
00:48:50.327 --> 00:48:52.896
So if you spend money on health issues,
00:48:52.896 --> 00:48:54.498
it doesn't necessarily mean
00:48:54.498 --> 00:48:56.533
that you're not going
to address other issues.
00:48:56.533 --> 00:48:57.701
In fact quite the converse.
00:48:57.701 --> 00:48:59.803
I think the best way of
looking at these things
00:48:59.803 --> 00:49:03.807
is to address things in
parallel or symbiotically.
00:49:03.807 --> 00:49:07.277
For example, many of the
root causes of climate change
00:49:07.277 --> 00:49:12.282
also increase the risk or
the impact of pandemics.
00:49:12.416 --> 00:49:15.686
So one simple example
would be deforestation
00:49:15.686 --> 00:49:19.456
for agricultural purposes
forces animals to migrate.
00:49:19.456 --> 00:49:21.959
We know that when animals migrate,
00:49:21.959 --> 00:49:24.962
they can take diseases
and other things with them
00:49:24.962 --> 00:49:27.898
and pass them on to other
animals and indeed to humans.
00:49:27.898 --> 00:49:31.001
So addressing the issue of
deforestation in that context
00:49:31.001 --> 00:49:33.337
can help the health issues.
00:49:33.337 --> 00:49:36.606
Almost any action that
you take on climate change
00:49:36.606 --> 00:49:38.875
has a positive effect on health.
00:49:38.875 --> 00:49:40.777
That's quite an interesting result.
00:49:40.777 --> 00:49:43.480
If something is prioritized,
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:45.949
if we all focus our
attention on doing something
00:49:45.949 --> 00:49:49.553
then it can be done and the
eye-watering amounts of money
00:49:49.553 --> 00:49:52.122
that have appeared apparently from nowhere
00:49:52.122 --> 00:49:55.892
in order to address this
issue are quite interesting
00:49:55.892 --> 00:49:58.628
when the country decides
that something is important
00:49:58.628 --> 00:49:59.629
then it can be done
00:49:59.629 --> 00:50:02.065
and I'm sure that
applies to climate change
00:50:02.065 --> 00:50:04.634
as much as to health issues.
00:50:09.806 --> 00:50:12.509
I'm afraid what has surprised me the most
00:50:12.509 --> 00:50:15.545
is how systemic and
00:50:16.313 --> 00:50:21.051
drastic the impact of a pandemic is.
00:50:21.184 --> 00:50:24.721
I didn't previously suspect
that a pandemic would prove
00:50:24.721 --> 00:50:25.989
a bundle of fun.
00:50:26.857 --> 00:50:31.762
But I had no imaginative registration
00:50:31.762 --> 00:50:33.230
of what it would be like
00:50:33.230 --> 00:50:38.235
to be subjected to a contemporary
iteration of the plague.
00:50:38.535 --> 00:50:43.073
I've read "I Promessi Sposi"
and I've read "La Peste"
00:50:43.073 --> 00:50:45.542
but actually they don't prepare you
00:50:45.542 --> 00:50:49.279
for a real living plague.
00:50:50.313 --> 00:50:53.617
It is particularly important,
I think at this point,
00:50:53.617 --> 00:50:57.220
for people who live in the sort of states
00:50:57.220 --> 00:50:59.556
that we call "democracies".
00:51:00.457 --> 00:51:03.660
It's particularly important
for them to realize
00:51:03.660 --> 00:51:06.530
how foolish it was in the first place
00:51:06.530 --> 00:51:09.332
to think of democracies as guarantees
00:51:09.332 --> 00:51:14.337
of any form of collective
security and good life.
00:51:14.805 --> 00:51:19.776
We don't know that any
form of state yet realized
00:51:20.677 --> 00:51:22.379
is going to be adequate
00:51:22.379 --> 00:51:27.350
to prevent the world
being completely wrecked
00:51:27.684 --> 00:51:29.453
as a human habitat.
00:51:29.453 --> 00:51:31.855
And if it isn't, it only won't be
00:51:31.855 --> 00:51:35.826
because in fact the level
of political performance
00:51:35.826 --> 00:51:39.863
in societies across the
world improves sharply.
00:51:39.863 --> 00:51:42.732
In the case of the states
00:51:42.732 --> 00:51:44.701
we like to think of as democracies,
00:51:44.701 --> 00:51:49.005
it could only improve if in
fact the citizenry at large
00:51:49.005 --> 00:51:53.276
become a great deal better
informed, some serious sense
00:51:53.276 --> 00:51:57.647
of what should and shouldn't
happen in collective life
00:51:57.647 --> 00:52:01.718
and make a serious attempt
to enforce that sense
00:52:01.718 --> 00:52:04.554
on those they select to govern them.
00:52:06.223 --> 00:52:09.826
In that sense, I mean, it
isn't just that democracy
00:52:09.826 --> 00:52:14.831
isn't a guarantee of a secure
and good collective life.
00:52:15.465 --> 00:52:20.470
It's that it can't be
anything but a serious menace
00:52:20.804 --> 00:52:24.174
to the prospects for such
a life accepting so far
00:52:24.174 --> 00:52:27.911
as the citizens perform
at a much higher level
00:52:27.911 --> 00:52:30.013
than they've so far learned how to.
00:52:35.318 --> 00:52:37.821
In this particular crisis, what we discovered
00:52:38.054 --> 00:52:42.058
was not so much a conflict
between majority rule
00:52:42.058 --> 00:52:43.460
and expertise.
00:52:43.460 --> 00:52:47.964
Not so much between democratic
will formation, we might say,
00:52:47.964 --> 00:52:51.334
and the recommendations of the medical
00:52:51.334 --> 00:52:53.136
and public health officials
00:52:53.136 --> 00:52:55.405
but rather an unexpected conflict
00:52:55.405 --> 00:52:58.942
between scientific
expertise on the one hand
00:52:58.942 --> 00:53:01.845
and what we might call
liberal human rights
00:53:01.845 --> 00:53:03.880
or libertarian human rights on the other.
00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:06.416
So it's not so much
democratic majority rule
00:53:06.416 --> 00:53:08.852
because the vast majority
of the population
00:53:08.852 --> 00:53:12.856
accepted the recommendations
but rather the resistance
00:53:12.856 --> 00:53:16.526
of those members of a liberal democracy
00:53:16.526 --> 00:53:19.796
who argued that they had certain freedoms,
00:53:19.796 --> 00:53:22.599
certain human rights
that were being abrogated
00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:27.370
by a collective decision
informed by scientific expertise.
00:53:27.370 --> 00:53:31.141
As a result they argued for
example that their bodies
00:53:31.141 --> 00:53:32.108
were inviolable.
00:53:32.108 --> 00:53:35.879
That they had a kind of possessive control
00:53:35.879 --> 00:53:37.214
over their bodies
00:53:37.214 --> 00:53:40.083
and that as a result they
would not accept the mandate
00:53:40.083 --> 00:53:43.753
of the government led by
scientists to get vaccinated
00:53:43.753 --> 00:53:46.289
because this was an intrusion
on their personal freedom.
00:53:46.289 --> 00:53:49.893
They sometimes couched this
in terms of religious freedom.
00:53:49.893 --> 00:53:53.196
So the interesting tension we might say
00:53:53.196 --> 00:53:56.266
that was revealed by the COVID-19 pandemic
00:53:56.266 --> 00:53:58.335
was not so much between majority rule
00:53:58.335 --> 00:54:02.572
and scientific expertise but
between what we might call
00:54:02.572 --> 00:54:05.275
"the liberal libertarian resistance"
00:54:05.275 --> 00:54:08.678
of those who thought they had
rights that could be abrogated
00:54:08.678 --> 00:54:11.381
by the majority between
them on the one hand
00:54:11.381 --> 00:54:14.050
and scientific expertise on the other.
00:54:14.050 --> 00:54:15.585
Now this is a very complex issue
00:54:15.585 --> 00:54:19.089
and we certainly feel in many cases
00:54:19.089 --> 00:54:21.958
that the body is indeed inviolable.
00:54:21.958 --> 00:54:26.663
So as a result we are in a kind
of, I'd say, crisis because
00:54:26.663 --> 00:54:30.634
of the conflict between two
values that we hold dear:
00:54:30.634 --> 00:54:33.670
one the idea of solidarity, public good,
00:54:33.670 --> 00:54:35.772
the idea of collective
wisdom on the one hand
00:54:35.772 --> 00:54:38.475
and the other the inviolability
of the individual.
00:54:38.475 --> 00:54:40.343
Our society in particular
00:54:40.343 --> 00:54:44.514
is a place where this
battle has been staged
00:54:44.514 --> 00:54:46.683
over the years in many different ways.
00:54:46.683 --> 00:54:49.819
We don't always come out on the same side
00:54:49.819 --> 00:54:52.489
and that's why the abortion issue is so
00:54:52.489 --> 00:54:57.494
extraordinarily vexed and
that's why one has a certain,
00:54:58.495 --> 00:55:01.298
let's say, grudging
respect for the position
00:55:01.298 --> 00:55:03.867
of those who feel that their bodies
00:55:03.867 --> 00:55:07.570
ought not to be intruded
upon by the state.
00:55:07.570 --> 00:55:10.974
A complicated issue, no single answer, but
00:55:10.974 --> 00:55:13.877
we've learned a lot about the
complexities of it as a result
00:55:13.877 --> 00:55:16.880
of how we've had to deal with the crisis.
00:55:21.818 --> 00:55:23.953
One thing the pandemic has brought up
00:55:23.953 --> 00:55:25.722
and increased is uncertainty
00:55:26.056 --> 00:55:29.059
Now the future is inherently uncertain.
00:55:29.059 --> 00:55:31.161
That's the way we experience it as
00:55:31.161 --> 00:55:33.430
there are multiple possibilities
00:55:33.430 --> 00:55:36.666
but now I think we have
a much greater sense
00:55:36.666 --> 00:55:40.904
of the uncertainty
associated with the future.
00:55:40.904 --> 00:55:44.007
A century ago intellectual
life was dominated by the idea
00:55:44.007 --> 00:55:47.811
of alienation: that
people were helpless pawns
00:55:47.811 --> 00:55:50.046
at the mercy of giant social forces.
00:55:50.046 --> 00:55:52.949
Think of the stuff that
went on: world wars
00:55:52.949 --> 00:55:55.118
and recessions and depressions
00:55:55.118 --> 00:55:57.153
and they had a pandemic much worse
00:55:57.153 --> 00:55:58.355
than the one we're going through.
00:55:58.355 --> 00:56:00.657
So that sense of helplessness was there
00:56:00.657 --> 00:56:03.393
and by the second half of the 20th century
00:56:03.393 --> 00:56:05.195
that had pretty much dissipated.
00:56:05.195 --> 00:56:09.933
That was gone. People were more
positive and more confident.
00:56:09.933 --> 00:56:11.935
I think maybe
00:56:11.935 --> 00:56:14.537
we're going to go back to
some degree of this sense of,
00:56:14.537 --> 00:56:16.539
'well, anything can happen in the future
00:56:16.539 --> 00:56:18.208
and even if I take care of myself
00:56:18.208 --> 00:56:21.277
and live my life and be a good person,
00:56:21.277 --> 00:56:23.780
giant things can come out
of nowhere and clobber me
00:56:23.780 --> 00:56:25.915
and mess things up for me.'
00:56:25.915 --> 00:56:29.552
Negativity bias is the
idea that bad things
00:56:29.552 --> 00:56:33.323
have a stronger psychological
impact than good things.
00:56:33.323 --> 00:56:37.494
So the pandemic is a giant bad thing.
00:56:37.494 --> 00:56:40.864
First of all, the effects: people get sick
00:56:40.864 --> 00:56:42.799
so physical health has suffered.
00:56:42.799 --> 00:56:46.302
There's even evidence that the
direct effects of the virus
00:56:46.302 --> 00:56:49.539
are much less than the
effects of the lockdown
00:56:49.539 --> 00:56:50.774
even on health
00:56:50.774 --> 00:56:54.411
because even places that don't
have a lot of COVID deaths
00:56:54.411 --> 00:56:57.247
have more deaths than usual.
00:56:57.247 --> 00:57:01.050
It's the people in their 30s and 40s,
00:57:01.050 --> 00:57:03.353
their death rate has gone up -
00:57:03.353 --> 00:57:05.789
not dying from COVID
00:57:05.789 --> 00:57:09.459
so much as dying from traffic accidents
00:57:09.459 --> 00:57:11.861
which is ironic because
there's less traffic out there
00:57:11.861 --> 00:57:16.032
but people are driving perhaps
more recklessly and faster.
00:57:16.032 --> 00:57:19.536
Taking care of yourself like
getting your preventive care,
00:57:19.536 --> 00:57:21.404
your checkups for this or that,
00:57:21.404 --> 00:57:23.072
people hold off doing that
00:57:23.072 --> 00:57:24.107
because you don't want
to go into a hospital
00:57:24.107 --> 00:57:25.074
full of sick people,
00:57:25.074 --> 00:57:28.478
especially if you're
afraid of getting COVID.
00:57:29.412 --> 00:57:33.550
But that means that the
cancer is much further along
00:57:33.550 --> 00:57:38.288
before it's detected and hence
the prospects for recovery.
00:57:38.288 --> 00:57:40.457
So deaths have gone up
00:57:40.457 --> 00:57:42.892
and a number of researchers
have looked at this closely
00:57:42.892 --> 00:57:47.497
saying COVID had some effect
but mainly on old, sick people
00:57:47.497 --> 00:57:50.967
whereas the lockdown is
affecting the entire population
00:57:50.967 --> 00:57:52.969
including younger people.
00:57:52.969 --> 00:57:55.472
We know from the Great
Depression a century ago,
00:57:55.472 --> 00:57:59.209
the people most affected
are people whose careers
00:57:59.209 --> 00:58:01.010
are at that critical point.
00:58:01.010 --> 00:58:04.247
You start off your career
and you move up for a while
00:58:04.247 --> 00:58:06.449
and then you get sort of,
00:58:06.449 --> 00:58:09.652
you get promoted into the
upper levels of management
00:58:09.652 --> 00:58:11.921
or you don't, you get shunted aside.
00:58:11.921 --> 00:58:14.724
So it's people, say,
who are in their 30s now
00:58:14.724 --> 00:58:18.528
who are coming up on that
point in their career.
00:58:18.528 --> 00:58:21.464
If there's a serious economic downturn,
00:58:21.464 --> 00:58:24.734
the effect of the downturn
is temporary for society
00:58:24.734 --> 00:58:28.371
but it's permanent for you
if you miss out on the chance
00:58:28.371 --> 00:58:29.906
because by the time the economy recovers
00:58:29.906 --> 00:58:31.608
there are new people coming along.
00:58:36.646 --> 00:58:39.315
The pandemic, at its heart,
00:58:39.315 --> 00:58:42.118
dramatically increased the symptoms
00:58:42.385 --> 00:58:45.321
of mental illness in the population.
00:58:45.321 --> 00:58:49.392
I mean, you have had
a doubling to tripling
00:58:49.392 --> 00:58:52.829
of the appearance of
symptoms in spot polls
00:58:52.829 --> 00:58:55.765
from year over year during the pandemic
00:58:55.765 --> 00:58:58.001
compared to the pre-pandemic period.
00:58:58.001 --> 00:59:02.405
So just the number of
people touched by symptoms
00:59:02.405 --> 00:59:06.376
of mental illness has
increased dramatically.
00:59:07.677 --> 00:59:12.615
The second part of that
is that the isolation
00:59:14.851 --> 00:59:18.621
and the loneliness has
made people more aware
00:59:18.621 --> 00:59:20.890
that they needed to talk to people,
00:59:20.890 --> 00:59:25.895
to get some support if you will.
00:59:26.596 --> 00:59:29.532
And while that's not
sort of strictly speaking
00:59:29.532 --> 00:59:32.569
a sort of diagnosable condition,
00:59:32.569 --> 00:59:35.171
it started to make people aware
00:59:35.171 --> 00:59:37.407
of the kinds of support needs
00:59:37.407 --> 00:59:39.208
that mental health treatment often offers.
00:59:41.611 --> 00:59:46.616
The carnage that occurred in
long-term care facilities,
00:59:47.350 --> 00:59:49.519
nursing homes in this country,
00:59:52.188 --> 00:59:57.193
was just deeply troubling when
you look at the slow response
01:00:00.296 --> 01:00:02.799
to protecting people who
are in an environment
01:00:02.799 --> 01:00:07.804
where it was fairly clear
that a disease like COVID-19
01:00:08.605 --> 01:00:10.673
could spread very quickly.
01:00:10.673 --> 01:00:14.143
We didn't take the precautions
01:00:14.143 --> 01:00:19.148
and we didn't respond very
quickly to ameliorating that.
01:00:20.783 --> 01:00:25.788
I think this will be something
that hopefully in the coming
01:00:27.624 --> 01:00:30.927
years we will move very
quickly towards fixing by
01:00:32.395 --> 01:00:34.530
putting into place quality standards
01:00:34.530 --> 01:00:36.766
that actually are related
01:00:36.766 --> 01:00:40.136
to what our real notion of quality
01:00:40.136 --> 01:00:42.171
long-term care facility is.
01:00:43.306 --> 01:00:48.311
I think an important lesson
that we will gain clarity on
01:00:48.444 --> 01:00:52.882
looking backwards a decade or two from now
01:00:52.882 --> 01:00:57.887
will be that we had a series
of tools available to us
01:00:59.222 --> 01:01:03.893
that could have dramatically
reduced the destruction
01:01:03.893 --> 01:01:05.895
created by the pandemic.
01:01:05.895 --> 01:01:08.398
They were scientific
and public health tools
01:01:08.398 --> 01:01:10.767
but they were also economic tools.
01:01:10.767 --> 01:01:15.772
We were very slow to guarantee
people incomes essentially
01:01:16.606 --> 01:01:19.175
in the face of the pandemic
01:01:19.175 --> 01:01:22.679
and as a result, people
wound up having to take risks
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:25.748
because they felt their
livelihoods were at stake.
01:01:25.748 --> 01:01:29.886
If we'd had a better
financial support response,
01:01:29.886 --> 01:01:34.290
a quicker one, if we had
moved quicker on the testing
01:01:34.290 --> 01:01:38.061
and actually been humble
enough to use the WHO one,
01:01:39.395 --> 01:01:41.898
if we had been more serious
01:01:41.898 --> 01:01:44.967
about getting people to wear masks,
01:01:44.967 --> 01:01:47.737
getting the right masks before
01:01:47.737 --> 01:01:52.208
suddenly opposition
was allowed to develop,
01:01:53.109 --> 01:01:56.713
I think we would have dramatically
reduced the casualties.
01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:02.885
I think that history
will indict us for that.
01:02:08.958 --> 01:02:12.195
Democracy thrives in a community of care
01:02:12.195 --> 01:02:14.430
and I think we must care for each other
01:02:14.797 --> 01:02:17.533
or democracy will become
what Lincoln liked to call
01:02:17.533 --> 01:02:19.001
a "mobocracy".
01:02:19.001 --> 01:02:21.070
And that's the fundamental
question really:
01:02:21.070 --> 01:02:24.273
what's the difference between
democracy and mob rule?
01:02:24.273 --> 01:02:27.877
We all know that a majority
can become a tyrannical
01:02:27.877 --> 01:02:30.680
majority, a majority faction,
an authoritarian regime.
01:02:30.680 --> 01:02:33.116
A democracy has to create the conditions
01:02:33.116 --> 01:02:34.917
under which majority rule
01:02:34.917 --> 01:02:38.454
doesn't simply mean a majority advantage.
01:02:38.454 --> 01:02:41.924
So we have to think about
democracy as not voting.
01:02:41.924 --> 01:02:44.527
Voting is a decision rule in a democracy.
01:02:44.527 --> 01:02:48.297
The democracy precedes voting.
01:02:48.297 --> 01:02:51.701
A democracy is a community
in which every individual
01:02:51.701 --> 01:02:53.870
is treated with respect and dignity
01:02:53.870 --> 01:02:58.040
and every individual is
recognized as a full person.
01:02:58.040 --> 01:02:59.909
A person who deserves our care.
01:02:59.909 --> 01:03:03.146
So the primary condition
of a successful democracy
01:03:03.146 --> 01:03:07.483
is sustaining the requirements
of a community of care.
01:03:07.483 --> 01:03:09.318
If you don't have a community of care,
01:03:09.318 --> 01:03:12.388
majoritarianism is just
going to be a practice
01:03:12.388 --> 01:03:13.923
of winners and losers.
01:03:13.923 --> 01:03:16.826
But this is clearly what's
going on in the United States.
01:03:16.826 --> 01:03:20.096
The pandemic has revealed
just how deep our failure is
01:03:20.096 --> 01:03:21.831
as a single community.
01:03:21.831 --> 01:03:25.768
We're deeply, deeply driven
between the red and the blue.
01:03:25.768 --> 01:03:28.070
What is most striking
about this distinction
01:03:28.070 --> 01:03:30.773
is not a conflict of policies.
01:03:30.773 --> 01:03:32.909
The big difference is there's no care
01:03:32.909 --> 01:03:34.977
across these communities.
01:03:34.977 --> 01:03:35.812
The red states,
01:03:35.812 --> 01:03:38.414
the red communities don't
care about the blue states
01:03:38.414 --> 01:03:40.316
which is fundamentally illustrated
01:03:40.316 --> 01:03:42.151
with the arrival of the pandemic
01:03:42.151 --> 01:03:45.087
which appeared in the coastal
states, in the blue states.
01:03:45.087 --> 01:03:47.990
It was a disease of the blue communities
01:03:47.990 --> 01:03:50.860
and it was treated as
such by those in power,
01:03:50.860 --> 01:03:51.961
the red community.
01:03:51.961 --> 01:03:55.898
As if a plague had descended
upon one's enemies.
01:03:55.898 --> 01:03:58.434
That was deadly to a democracy.
01:03:58.434 --> 01:03:59.936
Not to be cared for.
01:03:59.936 --> 01:04:01.804
So the pandemic has shown us
01:04:01.804 --> 01:04:03.539
both the necessity of a community
01:04:03.539 --> 01:04:05.107
and the absence of a community.
01:04:05.107 --> 01:04:07.810
This is striking and disturbing.
01:04:07.810 --> 01:04:10.179
I tend to be a pessimist in my outlook
01:04:10.179 --> 01:04:13.583
but I was really surprised
01:04:14.851 --> 01:04:18.387
by the failure of the community to unite.
01:04:18.387 --> 01:04:20.857
I thought something like the pandemic
01:04:20.857 --> 01:04:22.758
would be the kind of shock
01:04:22.758 --> 01:04:25.595
that would bring the country
together and it did not.
01:04:26.495 --> 01:04:31.434
I'm just amazed at the tolerance
of the country for death
01:04:31.434 --> 01:04:32.401
and destruction.
01:04:32.401 --> 01:04:35.204
I'm just amazed, this
is, as I said before,
01:04:35.204 --> 01:04:37.807
twice the losses of all the
wars of the 20th century
01:04:37.807 --> 01:04:40.109
and we're not grieving.
01:04:45.348 --> 01:04:49.518
I don't think that the reaction to the pandemic
01:04:49.819 --> 01:04:54.790
has shown us to be morally deep
and thoughtful human beings
01:04:55.358 --> 01:04:57.093
by and large.
01:04:57.093 --> 01:05:00.062
I think in fact we haven't worried enough
01:05:00.062 --> 01:05:02.298
about people in distant places
01:05:02.298 --> 01:05:06.569
or even people different from
ourselves in the same society.
01:05:06.569 --> 01:05:10.973
I think that we haven't
analyzed the moral situation
01:05:10.973 --> 01:05:12.575
at all clearly.
01:05:12.575 --> 01:05:14.677
We haven't often come to see
01:05:14.677 --> 01:05:18.915
that the fundamental
inequalities in our society
01:05:18.915 --> 01:05:22.518
are at the basis of
certain kinds of reactions
01:05:22.518 --> 01:05:24.353
to policy making:
01:05:24.353 --> 01:05:28.624
that those who are
struggling in our society
01:05:28.624 --> 01:05:30.159
find it difficult
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:35.164
to take part in things that
well-off people take for granted
01:05:35.798 --> 01:05:38.167
and recommend as ways of responding
01:05:38.167 --> 01:05:40.736
to the threat of infection.
01:05:40.736 --> 01:05:42.939
There have been all
sorts of insensitivities
01:05:42.939 --> 01:05:44.373
that have been shown.
01:05:44.373 --> 01:05:47.743
I think far too little
attention has been paid
01:05:47.743 --> 01:05:51.814
to the obligations of rich countries
01:05:51.814 --> 01:05:56.819
to make sure that people in
the poorer parts of the world
01:05:57.486 --> 01:05:59.422
could have access to treatments,
01:05:59.422 --> 01:06:02.959
could have access to
preventative measures.
01:06:02.959 --> 01:06:05.661
But I think also that closer to home,
01:06:05.661 --> 01:06:09.332
we've tended often to
demonize other people.
01:06:09.332 --> 01:06:11.867
There was a brief moment in New York City
01:06:11.867 --> 01:06:15.137
where I felt that there was going to be
01:06:15.137 --> 01:06:19.008
a genuine appreciation of a moral point
01:06:19.008 --> 01:06:21.844
when we learned that
certain kinds of people
01:06:21.844 --> 01:06:23.612
were essential workers.
01:06:23.612 --> 01:06:25.581
That might have been the occasion
01:06:25.581 --> 01:06:28.751
for the United States as a whole to say,
01:06:28.751 --> 01:06:31.387
"Why don't we pay these people properly?
01:06:31.387 --> 01:06:34.123
Why don't we pay them a
wage on which they can live?
01:06:34.123 --> 01:06:36.359
Why don't we make it easier for them
01:06:37.226 --> 01:06:41.530
to have the sorts of
protections against infection
01:06:41.530 --> 01:06:45.267
that they allow us by delivering things,
01:06:45.267 --> 01:06:47.937
by keeping the subways running?"
01:06:47.937 --> 01:06:50.373
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:06:50.373 --> 01:06:52.441
But it passed
01:06:52.441 --> 01:06:56.312
and the country seems as
ungenerous on the whole
01:06:56.312 --> 01:06:58.614
as it's always been
01:06:58.614 --> 01:07:01.550
and is forgetful of what we've learned
01:07:01.550 --> 01:07:05.121
about the need for human interrelationship
01:07:05.121 --> 01:07:08.724
and human collaboration
and human cooperation.
01:07:08.724 --> 01:07:12.094
So I think this pandemic
could have taught us
01:07:12.094 --> 01:07:14.530
very important moral lessons
01:07:14.530 --> 01:07:16.966
but the signs so far are that it hasn't.
01:07:22.304 --> 01:07:26.475
You have to let people across partisan,
01:07:27.043 --> 01:07:32.948
racial, educational and social divides
tell each other stories,
01:07:33.249 --> 01:07:36.519
their personal stories,
their personal encounters,
01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:37.787
what they know in person.
01:07:37.787 --> 01:07:41.724
Not what they got from Fox News or CNN
01:07:42.558 --> 01:07:44.460
or the New York Times.
01:07:44.460 --> 01:07:48.064
But what they experience
in their own lives.
01:07:48.064 --> 01:07:51.067
So how has the pandemic affected them?
01:07:51.967 --> 01:07:55.404
Have they had relatives
die or in the hospital?
01:07:55.404 --> 01:07:58.307
Are they having trouble
paying hospital bills?
01:07:59.308 --> 01:08:02.878
Has the health care system treated them
01:08:03.946 --> 01:08:06.549
in a disrespectful way?
01:08:06.549 --> 01:08:08.451
People can come out with their stories
01:08:08.451 --> 01:08:11.620
and then you can bring in doctors,
01:08:11.620 --> 01:08:13.556
people engaged in public health,
01:08:13.556 --> 01:08:17.059
academics who've been
studying the pandemic
01:08:17.059 --> 01:08:18.727
and they can tell their stories
01:08:18.727 --> 01:08:23.299
about why they entered
this field of research,
01:08:23.299 --> 01:08:26.035
how they got involved with the pandemic,
01:08:26.035 --> 01:08:29.071
what they've learned from their studies
01:08:29.071 --> 01:08:31.173
and their investigations.
01:08:32.108 --> 01:08:34.610
But people have to speak from the heart.
01:08:34.610 --> 01:08:36.479
That's really critical.
01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:39.548
And then other people's
hearts will open up.
01:08:39.548 --> 01:08:42.718
But first you have to show respect
01:08:42.718 --> 01:08:45.621
by listening carefully
to other people's stories
01:08:45.621 --> 01:08:47.857
and responding to that.
01:08:47.857 --> 01:08:52.862
It's a way to build trust
across social divisions
01:08:53.529 --> 01:08:57.133
that are now deeply
alienated from each other.
01:08:57.133 --> 01:09:01.103
When people both get to
express their point of view
01:09:01.103 --> 01:09:02.538
and their personal experiences
01:09:02.538 --> 01:09:05.107
but also learn from other people
01:09:05.107 --> 01:09:09.512
because a lot of the distrust
is based on fantasies
01:09:09.512 --> 01:09:12.882
that people have about
how the other people live
01:09:13.716 --> 01:09:15.784
and who they are and what they care about.
01:09:15.784 --> 01:09:19.255
It overlooks the fact that most of us
01:09:19.255 --> 01:09:21.524
really want the same things,
01:09:21.524 --> 01:09:24.760
you know, we want our
families to flourish,
01:09:24.760 --> 01:09:28.063
we want our kids to grow up in safety,
01:09:28.063 --> 01:09:29.465
we want decent jobs,
01:09:29.465 --> 01:09:31.500
we want to be able to
provide for our families.
01:09:31.500 --> 01:09:35.838
This is universal, we want
to be healthy, (chuckles)
01:09:35.838 --> 01:09:38.007
there's nobody who
doesn't want these things.
01:09:43.846 --> 01:09:46.582
I am a medievalist; and one of my topics -
01:09:46.815 --> 01:09:50.019
because I work on the crisis
of the late 14th century -
01:09:50.019 --> 01:09:54.690
is the spread of the plague in
Europe between 1348 and 1351.
01:09:56.158 --> 01:09:58.661
I have been struck through
these last two years
01:09:58.661 --> 01:09:59.695
by the manner in which
01:09:59.695 --> 01:10:03.465
our response to the
plague in the 21st century
01:10:03.465 --> 01:10:06.669
is pretty similar to the
response of people in Florence
01:10:06.669 --> 01:10:07.770
in 1348.
01:10:07.770 --> 01:10:09.805
We have a great account of the plague
01:10:09.805 --> 01:10:11.440
in Boccaccio's Decameron.
01:10:11.440 --> 01:10:14.510
At the introduction of the
preface to the Decameron,
01:10:14.510 --> 01:10:15.544
he tells a story and
01:10:15.544 --> 01:10:19.748
essentially there are parallels
that are really haunting.
01:10:19.748 --> 01:10:22.284
One of them is that the
people at the bottom
01:10:22.284 --> 01:10:23.786
suffer the most.
01:10:23.786 --> 01:10:26.655
Not only proportionally more poor people
01:10:26.655 --> 01:10:31.160
die in the plague in
Florence than the rich did
01:10:31.160 --> 01:10:34.763
but that has also been the
case in our world as well
01:10:34.763 --> 01:10:37.066
in the United States specifically.
01:10:37.066 --> 01:10:41.036
Minorities have suffered
greater than other people.
01:10:41.036 --> 01:10:43.239
There are also other parallels
01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:45.708
in the middle of the 14th century.
01:10:45.708 --> 01:10:48.477
One of the things that you
do is that you demonize
01:10:48.477 --> 01:10:50.179
religious minorities.
01:10:50.179 --> 01:10:54.650
They are accused of being
responsible for the plague
01:10:54.650 --> 01:10:58.120
which parallels some of
the political discourse
01:10:58.120 --> 01:11:01.757
throughout the world and
specifically in this nation
01:11:01.757 --> 01:11:04.460
in which immigrants and minorities
01:11:04.460 --> 01:11:08.264
have also been accused of being
conduits for the pandemic.
01:11:09.331 --> 01:11:10.933
I am a historian,
01:11:10.933 --> 01:11:14.937
I have a kind of a
certainly skeptical view
01:11:14.937 --> 01:11:17.640
of the values of history today
01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:21.143
because in this country, in
the United States where I live
01:11:21.143 --> 01:11:24.880
and teach, we live in ahistorical times.
01:11:24.880 --> 01:11:28.050
We live in an ever-existing present.
01:11:28.050 --> 01:11:30.452
History provides us with lessons,
01:11:30.452 --> 01:11:33.889
it provides us with clues, with patterns.
01:11:33.889 --> 01:11:35.858
While the patterns are recognizable
01:11:35.858 --> 01:11:37.926
and historians keep pointing out
01:11:37.926 --> 01:11:40.796
the connections between
the past and the present,
01:11:40.796 --> 01:11:43.599
we seldom pay attention to history.
01:11:43.599 --> 01:11:46.568
We seldom follow the lessons
that are to be learned
01:11:46.568 --> 01:11:50.205
from historical research
and historical learning.
01:11:50.205 --> 01:11:53.075
Therefore we commit the same errors again.
01:11:53.075 --> 01:11:55.277
In many respects a pandemic is an example
01:11:55.277 --> 01:11:58.147
of a manner in which we essentially,
01:11:58.147 --> 01:12:00.716
not history is repeated in itself
01:12:00.716 --> 01:12:04.053
but the patterns of human
behavior repeat themselves
01:12:04.053 --> 01:12:08.824
in facing and confronting
something so global as a pandemic.
01:12:08.824 --> 01:12:13.796
So, yes, there is essentially
no critical citizenship
01:12:14.296 --> 01:12:19.301
without history. Yes, there
is no essential understanding
01:12:19.435 --> 01:12:21.804
of ourselves without
understanding the past.
01:12:22.805 --> 01:12:27.176
But there is at the present a
kind of fleeing from history
01:12:27.176 --> 01:12:29.378
which is demonstrated in the decline
01:12:29.378 --> 01:12:32.014
in the number of people who study history
01:12:32.014 --> 01:12:34.083
or who indeed are part and parcel
01:12:34.083 --> 01:12:36.218
of the manner in which
we organize society.
01:12:41.890 --> 01:12:43.792
If we think of the Enlightenment
01:12:43.792 --> 01:12:45.294
at the very most basic level
01:12:45.394 --> 01:12:47.996
as a movement originating
in the 18th century
01:12:47.996 --> 01:12:51.867
that sought to use advanced
knowledge and science
01:12:51.867 --> 01:12:56.138
to improve human life and
to address human problems
01:12:56.138 --> 01:12:58.841
and the Counter Enlightenment
as resistance to that,
01:12:58.841 --> 01:13:01.543
I think there's scope for
thinking in some ways about
01:13:01.543 --> 01:13:03.178
a relationship between
01:13:03.178 --> 01:13:04.346
Enlightenment and Counter Enlightenment
01:13:04.346 --> 01:13:06.281
and what's happening in our own time.
01:13:06.281 --> 01:13:09.318
One thing I would caution
against is too easily
01:13:09.318 --> 01:13:14.323
equating resistance to
science with religion.
01:13:14.323 --> 01:13:16.558
Historians of science,
historians of religion
01:13:16.558 --> 01:13:18.427
have spent a lot of time
in the last several decades
01:13:18.427 --> 01:13:21.296
showing that that's really a canard,
01:13:21.296 --> 01:13:23.499
that actually in the 18th century
01:13:23.499 --> 01:13:26.034
religious forces were in many ways
01:13:26.034 --> 01:13:27.136
supportive of science.
01:13:27.136 --> 01:13:29.571
Ironically in this country,
in the United States
01:13:29.571 --> 01:13:34.309
during the smallpox epidemic,
an outbreak in Boston in 1721,
01:13:34.309 --> 01:13:37.846
Cotton Mather, the great
puritan religious leader
01:13:37.846 --> 01:13:41.917
who very publicly came out
in support of inoculation.
01:13:43.285 --> 01:13:45.854
You would think that the pandemic
01:13:45.854 --> 01:13:49.057
would force us to realize the obvious
01:13:49.057 --> 01:13:51.460
that our problems today,
our most pressing problems
01:13:51.460 --> 01:13:55.831
are global in nature and that
they demand global responses.
01:13:55.831 --> 01:13:59.568
Yet we've seen the continuation
of intense nationalism
01:13:59.568 --> 01:14:01.637
and we're probably coming
out of the pandemic
01:14:01.637 --> 01:14:04.139
going into a new cold war
01:14:04.139 --> 01:14:06.875
between the world's two major superpowers.
01:14:06.875 --> 01:14:10.846
You would think that the
pandemic would unite us
01:14:10.846 --> 01:14:12.314
in the face of a common enemy
01:14:12.314 --> 01:14:14.283
and we would come together to fight it.
01:14:14.283 --> 01:14:16.718
But in society after society,
01:14:16.718 --> 01:14:20.088
we see increasing social division.
01:14:20.088 --> 01:14:22.124
You would think that the
pandemic would urge us
01:14:22.124 --> 01:14:23.358
to prepare for the next one
01:14:23.358 --> 01:14:25.260
and yet the CDC just the other day
01:14:25.260 --> 01:14:28.730
issued a report showing
that we're not at all ready
01:14:28.730 --> 01:14:30.332
for the next pandemic.
01:14:30.332 --> 01:14:35.337
So despite the terrible
social cost of this pandemic,
01:14:35.404 --> 01:14:37.739
it may be that it doesn't cut deep enough
01:14:37.739 --> 01:14:39.708
to really prompt the kind of change
01:14:39.708 --> 01:14:43.045
that major tragedies in the past have.
01:14:43.045 --> 01:14:45.614
So if you think about the
aftermath of the Second World War
01:14:45.614 --> 01:14:47.883
with all the carnage
and all the destruction
01:14:47.883 --> 01:14:50.185
and all the diseases that followed,
01:14:50.185 --> 01:14:53.155
human beings were really
ready for significant change
01:14:53.155 --> 01:14:55.257
in all kinds of ways.
01:14:55.257 --> 01:15:00.128
So I fear that despite the great tragedy
01:15:00.128 --> 01:15:04.066
of this pandemic and all
the loss in human life
01:15:04.066 --> 01:15:07.102
that it may not be bad enough
01:15:07.102 --> 01:15:11.273
to urge us to make the kind of
changes that we need to make
01:15:11.273 --> 01:15:13.408
in order to live in a better world.
01:15:19.081 --> 01:15:21.350
You would think that the virus would be completely
01:15:21.350 --> 01:15:23.352
unrelated to issues of trade
01:15:23.452 --> 01:15:26.522
and international competition,
but it's actually become
01:15:26.522 --> 01:15:30.125
intimately intertwined with those precise issues.
01:15:30.125 --> 01:15:32.895
Part of it goes back to around 2016
01:15:32.895 --> 01:15:36.999
when Donald Trump unleashed
his trade war with China.
01:15:36.999 --> 01:15:40.669
That set in place a set of circumstances
01:15:40.669 --> 01:15:43.805
that led to increased
animosity and tensions
01:15:43.805 --> 01:15:46.608
almost unprecedented in the context
01:15:46.608 --> 01:15:48.210
of the last couple of decades
01:15:48.210 --> 01:15:50.946
between the United States and China.
01:15:50.946 --> 01:15:53.615
That continued to come to a head
01:15:53.615 --> 01:15:56.118
until we got to the point of 2020
01:15:56.118 --> 01:15:59.321
when we have the COVID-19
crisis break out.
01:15:59.321 --> 01:16:02.591
Initially, the US government
actually applauded
01:16:02.591 --> 01:16:05.827
China's handling of what
was happening in Wuhan.
01:16:05.827 --> 01:16:08.497
But very quickly, once it became clear
01:16:08.497 --> 01:16:11.600
that this was turning into
what looked like might become
01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:15.537
a global pandemic the political
discourse changed radically
01:16:15.537 --> 01:16:18.974
as, I think, politicians
in Washington decided
01:16:18.974 --> 01:16:20.976
that they could gain some political clout
01:16:20.976 --> 01:16:24.313
from using this, from playing
with it, from leveraging it.
01:16:24.313 --> 01:16:27.382
That's when we start seeing
the use of racist terms
01:16:27.382 --> 01:16:29.751
like China Virus, Kung Flu,
01:16:29.751 --> 01:16:34.222
and other disparaging ways in
which the virus was racialized
01:16:34.222 --> 01:16:36.725
in terms of its associations with China
01:16:36.725 --> 01:16:38.160
or the Chinese people
01:16:38.160 --> 01:16:40.762
that of course unleashed
all kinds of violence
01:16:40.762 --> 01:16:42.798
against members of the
Asian-American community
01:16:42.798 --> 01:16:45.267
and indeed Asians globally.
01:16:45.267 --> 01:16:47.736
What a lot of people don't see though
01:16:47.736 --> 01:16:51.673
is once that politicization
started to move into place,
01:16:51.673 --> 01:16:53.742
China responded in kind.
01:16:53.742 --> 01:16:57.846
If you're attuned to discourse
on Chinese social media
01:16:57.846 --> 01:16:59.748
and Chinese mainstream media,
01:16:59.748 --> 01:17:02.150
you'll see that congruent to that
01:17:02.150 --> 01:17:06.655
is an incredibly visceral rise
in anti-American sentiment.
01:17:06.655 --> 01:17:08.557
Not that it didn't exist before this
01:17:08.557 --> 01:17:10.359
but it becomes exacerbated
01:17:10.359 --> 01:17:13.228
and the flames get fanned to such a degree
01:17:13.228 --> 01:17:16.164
that it just becomes ubiquitous
01:17:16.164 --> 01:17:18.467
throughout Chinese social media.
01:17:18.467 --> 01:17:20.602
Another piece of the puzzle
01:17:20.602 --> 01:17:22.704
that I think probably
maybe a lot of Americans
01:17:22.704 --> 01:17:25.741
might not be that aware
of is although right now
01:17:25.741 --> 01:17:27.709
we're speaking in 2022,
01:17:27.709 --> 01:17:31.046
you don't see such blatant
anti-Chinese discourse
01:17:31.046 --> 01:17:34.583
being used by the current
President, by his administration.
01:17:34.583 --> 01:17:36.918
It feels like things
have cooled down a bit.
01:17:36.918 --> 01:17:40.555
However, nobody has
taken steps to backtrack
01:17:40.555 --> 01:17:42.457
and to undo the damage that was done
01:17:42.457 --> 01:17:44.526
during the Trump period.
01:17:44.526 --> 01:17:46.395
And what in fact it did do
01:17:46.395 --> 01:17:48.397
was unleash this unprecedented wave
01:17:48.397 --> 01:17:53.001
of anti-American sentiment
which has festered, it has grown
01:17:53.001 --> 01:17:56.004
and you can really see the
result of that playing out
01:17:56.004 --> 01:17:57.339
every day in China today.
01:17:57.339 --> 01:18:00.776
I mean, look at the top
couple of blockbuster films
01:18:00.776 --> 01:18:03.578
that are playing in Chinese
theaters the last year or so:
01:18:03.578 --> 01:18:07.482
almost all of them are
anti-American Korean war films.
01:18:07.482 --> 01:18:08.817
That's not an accident.
01:18:14.156 --> 01:18:18.493
I came to Brazil to visit my family here in February 2020
01:18:18.827 --> 01:18:20.462
and got trapped here
01:18:20.462 --> 01:18:23.265
because by the time the pandemic exploded
01:18:23.265 --> 01:18:25.967
in the US and in Brazil, I couldn't leave.
01:18:25.967 --> 01:18:30.939
There were no planes and the
Brazilian airspace was closed.
01:18:31.640 --> 01:18:34.176
It looked like a Sci-Fi movie.
01:18:34.176 --> 01:18:37.179
In the middle of that,
01:18:37.179 --> 01:18:40.348
I was invited - I was here
trapped in my apartment
01:18:40.348 --> 01:18:41.183
in Sao Paulo -
01:18:41.183 --> 01:18:45.387
and I was invited by a
consortium of nine governors from
01:18:45.387 --> 01:18:49.324
the northeast of Brazil to
lead a scientific commission.
01:18:49.324 --> 01:18:50.926
Of course I'm a neuroscientist
01:18:50.926 --> 01:18:53.495
but I started my career in medical school
01:18:53.495 --> 01:18:55.964
studying epidemiology.
01:18:55.964 --> 01:18:59.234
In the beginning I was
studying bacterial epidemiology
01:18:59.234 --> 01:19:03.672
in a hospital environment
and suddenly 35 years later
01:19:03.672 --> 01:19:07.909
I was using the papers and
the knowledge that I acquired
01:19:07.909 --> 01:19:10.645
to advise nine governors.
01:19:10.645 --> 01:19:14.683
Any military analyst would
tell you that in a war
01:19:14.683 --> 01:19:17.819
in which you are facing
a distributed enemy,
01:19:18.887 --> 01:19:23.892
you cannot face this enemy
locally by itself, by yourself.
01:19:24.025 --> 01:19:25.393
You need allies.
01:19:25.393 --> 01:19:29.164
You need to work the
same way the virus works:
01:19:29.164 --> 01:19:31.633
as a collective defense system.
01:19:31.633 --> 01:19:35.637
The collective defense system
would be a global strategy
01:19:35.637 --> 01:19:37.606
which we never had.
01:19:37.606 --> 01:19:38.974
Each country decided to do
01:19:38.974 --> 01:19:41.409
whatever it wanted to do by itself
01:19:41.409 --> 01:19:43.779
and each country created the conditions,
01:19:43.779 --> 01:19:48.517
the optimal conditions,
not for fighting the virus
01:19:48.517 --> 01:19:53.488
but for fighting its own
political, economic context.
01:19:53.488 --> 01:19:57.626
We never acted as a
collective defense system.
01:19:57.626 --> 01:20:00.328
When we abandoned Africa
01:20:00.328 --> 01:20:04.533
or poor countries to
their own local, minimal
01:20:04.533 --> 01:20:06.735
ways to fight this pandemic,
01:20:06.735 --> 01:20:09.871
we basically left open doors.
01:20:11.473 --> 01:20:14.009
We got flanked by the
virus in military terms.
01:20:14.009 --> 01:20:16.211
We basically got flanked by the virus
01:20:16.211 --> 01:20:20.849
because our right flank
was totally exposed.
01:20:20.849 --> 01:20:22.384
That's what people don't understand,
01:20:22.384 --> 01:20:26.254
a virus that mutates in South
Africa as we saw with Omicron,
01:20:26.254 --> 01:20:31.259
in two weeks it was capable of
doubling the number of cases,
01:20:31.626 --> 01:20:34.863
daily cases in Great Britain from 49,000
01:20:34.863 --> 01:20:37.165
to more than 100,000 a day.
01:20:42.938 --> 01:20:45.941
I was very lucky to be involved in
01:20:46.074 --> 01:20:49.177
some of the earliest discussions
01:20:49.177 --> 01:20:52.581
around how we could establish a system
01:20:52.581 --> 01:20:54.216
of sharing of vaccines,
01:20:54.216 --> 01:20:59.187
to set in place a system
that would create incentives
01:21:00.322 --> 01:21:02.991
for countries to not hoard,
01:21:02.991 --> 01:21:07.696
to recognize that it
would be better for them,
01:21:07.696 --> 01:21:09.664
for rich countries themselves,
01:21:09.664 --> 01:21:14.069
if all countries got vaccinated,
not just rich countries.
01:21:14.069 --> 01:21:19.040
In the end what happened is
that rich countries behaved
01:21:19.374 --> 01:21:23.545
worse than even our very worst nightmares.
01:21:23.545 --> 01:21:28.550
They were more avaricious and more greedy
01:21:29.251 --> 01:21:34.256
and more self-centered
screaming 'Me first, me only'
01:21:35.290 --> 01:21:39.661
in a way that I really lost
kind of faith in the idea
01:21:39.661 --> 01:21:44.566
that there was an international
health cooperation.
01:21:44.566 --> 01:21:48.937
One thing that I really wish world leaders
01:21:48.937 --> 01:21:50.872
in rich nations had done,
01:21:50.872 --> 01:21:55.543
is to use their soapbox to
explain to their citizens
01:21:55.543 --> 01:21:59.414
that it was in the citizens'
interests to share doses.
01:21:59.414 --> 01:22:01.750
Now I will always, I
will go to my deathbed
01:22:01.750 --> 01:22:04.920
believing that we should
be vaccinating the world
01:22:04.920 --> 01:22:06.288
because it is the right thing to do.
01:22:06.288 --> 01:22:09.357
It is the moral thing to
do, all lives are equal.
01:22:10.492 --> 01:22:14.362
But beyond that there is also
01:22:14.362 --> 01:22:17.532
an enlightened self-interest
in vaccinating the world
01:22:17.532 --> 01:22:19.200
and we've seen this play out.
01:22:19.200 --> 01:22:24.205
We know that if you leave
viral transmission uncontrolled
01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:27.509
anywhere in the world you
increase the risk of new variants
01:22:27.509 --> 01:22:28.376
of concern.
01:22:28.376 --> 01:22:31.846
We also know that it's
economically terrible
01:22:31.846 --> 01:22:35.784
for rich countries when
lower, middle income countries
01:22:35.784 --> 01:22:38.486
have awful outbreaks
and aren't vaccinated.
01:22:38.486 --> 01:22:40.622
That's because supply
chains get interrupted
01:22:40.622 --> 01:22:43.858
and trade gets interrupted
and imports get interrupted.
01:22:43.858 --> 01:22:48.296
I wish that we had seen
leaders in Europe and the US
01:22:48.296 --> 01:22:52.033
and Australia and Canada
and other rich nations
01:22:52.033 --> 01:22:55.804
take to the airways and
really explain to citizens.
01:22:55.804 --> 01:22:57.072
Because I think people would have got it.
01:22:57.072 --> 01:22:58.740
What's really fascinating
01:22:58.740 --> 01:23:01.409
and actually one thing
that I find quite beautiful
01:23:01.409 --> 01:23:02.344
and quite encouraging
01:23:02.344 --> 01:23:06.214
is that survey after survey after survey,
01:23:06.214 --> 01:23:08.616
public opinion poll
after public opinion poll
01:23:08.616 --> 01:23:10.618
after public opinion poll
01:23:10.618 --> 01:23:14.356
has shown that when you ask
citizens of rich nations,
01:23:14.356 --> 01:23:16.491
"Should we be sharing doses?"
01:23:16.491 --> 01:23:18.593
the answer is, "Yes!"
01:23:19.461 --> 01:23:24.466
People get it, people
actually wanted dose sharing.
01:23:30.038 --> 01:23:33.441
I think that civilization is always on trial
01:23:33.742 --> 01:23:37.712
and the pandemic has been
a really high profile
01:23:39.381 --> 01:23:44.386
moment for judging the credibility
of our collective ethics.
01:23:45.487 --> 01:23:50.492
Some people really don't
like the idea of saying that
01:23:50.592 --> 01:23:51.926
we're civilized
01:23:51.926 --> 01:23:55.630
even if we concede that
we're not very civilized yet
01:23:55.630 --> 01:24:00.635
because it means that someone
else is savage or uncivilized.
01:24:01.703 --> 01:24:04.339
The whole idea of civilization
01:24:04.339 --> 01:24:06.207
has a pretty dark history
01:24:06.207 --> 01:24:09.010
allowing some people to say they're on top
01:24:09.010 --> 01:24:12.747
and consign others to the bottom.
01:24:12.747 --> 01:24:16.518
But I think there's
something to this question
01:24:16.518 --> 01:24:19.687
and to the concept of civilization
01:24:19.687 --> 01:24:22.190
because if we take it seriously,
01:24:22.190 --> 01:24:25.727
we have to acknowledge that
01:24:25.727 --> 01:24:28.797
we're so far from it. Mahatma Gandhi
01:24:28.797 --> 01:24:31.666
when asked what he thought
of Western civilization,
01:24:31.666 --> 01:24:35.603
famously replied that it
would be a good idea someday.
01:24:35.603 --> 01:24:39.441
I think that's true of us as a society
01:24:39.441 --> 01:24:42.077
and as a global community,
01:24:42.077 --> 01:24:44.345
glaringly in response to the pandemic
01:24:44.345 --> 01:24:48.416
when we realize that we have arrangements
01:24:48.416 --> 01:24:53.421
that allow mass death
and it really matters
01:24:53.421 --> 01:24:57.725
where you are on the globe,
how far you're exposed to it.
01:24:57.725 --> 01:25:02.497
So we're at the beginning
of learning morality
01:25:02.497 --> 01:25:04.165
and institutionalizing it
01:25:04.165 --> 01:25:07.535
and I think the pandemic
proves that one more time.
01:25:09.204 --> 01:25:12.574
I think the pandemic has
revealed a lot of shortcomings
01:25:12.574 --> 01:25:14.209
in global governance.
01:25:14.209 --> 01:25:15.810
People knew about them before
01:25:15.810 --> 01:25:18.713
and especially those on the receiving end
01:25:18.713 --> 01:25:22.650
but the rest of us hadn't focused there
01:25:22.650 --> 01:25:27.655
and the media hadn't
examined the shortcomings
01:25:27.989 --> 01:25:30.458
in our global health infrastructure.
01:25:30.458 --> 01:25:33.595
The effect of the pandemic
01:25:33.595 --> 01:25:37.298
which was so different
depending on where you were
01:25:37.298 --> 01:25:41.503
on the surface of the earth
just became really vivid
01:25:41.503 --> 01:25:45.306
but of course it was already the case
01:25:45.306 --> 01:25:50.278
that there were centuries
of different lives
01:25:50.745 --> 01:25:53.314
depending on different locations.
01:25:53.314 --> 01:25:56.985
So I think the main effect of the pandemic
01:25:56.985 --> 01:26:00.121
was to reveal an open secret
01:26:00.121 --> 01:26:03.258
to people who could have
known but didn't and now do.
01:26:08.897 --> 01:26:12.934
In some way the pandemic has increased our sense of community
01:26:13.168 --> 01:26:15.136
It's shown us, for instance, that
01:26:15.136 --> 01:26:18.940
a virus variant which
arises in South Africa
01:26:18.940 --> 01:26:23.878
is the next day a virus variant
which ravages across Europe.
01:26:23.878 --> 01:26:28.483
So it's shown us that this is one world.
01:26:28.483 --> 01:26:31.986
But on the other hand it's
increased our own personal lives,
01:26:31.986 --> 01:26:34.889
it seems to me, our own atomism.
01:26:34.889 --> 01:26:36.457
I haven't seen a lot of evidence
01:26:36.457 --> 01:26:39.861
of real international cooperation.
01:26:39.861 --> 01:26:42.797
It seems that just as
we retreat personally
01:26:42.797 --> 01:26:46.000
into our own presumptions, our
own homes, our own carapaces
01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:49.571
so we retreat into our nation states.
01:26:49.571 --> 01:26:51.940
There hasn't been a lot of
international cooperation.
01:26:51.940 --> 01:26:55.176
Still less has there
been any real evidence
01:26:55.176 --> 01:26:57.478
that we're prepared as rich westerners
01:26:58.413 --> 01:27:02.784
to make even the most paltry sacrifices
01:27:02.784 --> 01:27:07.789
for those profoundly affected
by the virus in poorer states.
01:27:09.424 --> 01:27:10.692
Among scientists
01:27:10.692 --> 01:27:14.562
we've seen lots of dogmatic pontification.
01:27:15.463 --> 01:27:19.267
We've seen the old
scientistic model of science
01:27:19.267 --> 01:27:21.302
reasserting itself.
01:27:21.302 --> 01:27:26.307
That is an idea of science
as effectively a catechism
01:27:26.641 --> 01:27:31.646
rather than science as a
skeptical method of approaching
01:27:33.615 --> 01:27:36.618
the investigation of what
the world is really like.
01:27:36.618 --> 01:27:41.623
We've seen scientists
assuming pompously, arrogantly
01:27:42.724 --> 01:27:47.128
that only scientific
answers to the problems
01:27:47.128 --> 01:27:50.698
which COVID has faced
are the worthwhile ones.
01:27:50.698 --> 01:27:54.902
That science has a right
to trump ethical questions,
01:27:54.902 --> 01:27:57.572
political questions,
sociological questions
01:27:57.572 --> 01:28:01.242
rather than entering
into a humble dialogue
01:28:01.242 --> 01:28:03.678
with those other interests.
01:28:03.678 --> 01:28:06.147
What surprised me the
most about this pandemic
01:28:06.147 --> 01:28:08.583
is what it's shown us about ourselves.
01:28:08.583 --> 01:28:11.352
It's shown us the most
extraordinary altruism,
01:28:11.352 --> 01:28:13.621
the most extraordinary communitarianism,
01:28:13.621 --> 01:28:16.024
most extraordinary sacrifice.
01:28:16.024 --> 01:28:21.029
But also the most extraordinary
selfishness and fearfulness
01:28:22.063 --> 01:28:23.898
and it is very surprising
01:28:23.898 --> 01:28:28.903
that these characteristics
can inhabit the same skin.
01:28:28.936 --> 01:28:33.708
I'm also surprised at
how unreflective we are,
01:28:33.708 --> 01:28:36.878
that we don't look at this
extraordinary cohabitation
01:28:36.878 --> 01:28:38.813
and say, "It's weird
01:28:38.813 --> 01:28:43.084
that all those things can be
swirling around in one person."
01:28:43.084 --> 01:28:47.588
Looking back on this period,
historians of the future
01:28:47.588 --> 01:28:52.060
will be amazed at how fragile
we are, how vulnerable we are,
01:28:52.060 --> 01:28:53.928
how gullible we are.
01:28:53.928 --> 01:28:57.598
We're not we now know humiliatingly
01:28:57.598 --> 01:29:00.268
the sorts of creatures
that all our politics
01:29:00.268 --> 01:29:02.737
and all our sociology
and all our economics
01:29:02.737 --> 01:29:04.872
has assumed that we are.
01:29:04.872 --> 01:29:09.877
So sometime or other, please,
sooner rather than later,
01:29:10.078 --> 01:29:15.049
we need to begin our political
and sociological journey
01:29:15.350 --> 01:29:19.654
with an evaluation of that
most fundamental question:
01:29:19.654 --> 01:29:23.091
what sort of creatures
are we taking into account
01:29:23.091 --> 01:29:25.126
the lessons which have
been so painfully learnt
01:29:25.126 --> 01:29:26.627
over the last couple of years?
01:29:29.163 --> 01:29:31.866
(music)