00:00:07.877 --> 00:00:10.960
(somber music plays)

00:00:16.644 --> 00:00:18.570
- This is the first time
in my life I ever stopped

00:00:18.570 --> 00:00:21.190
and looked at myself for
a long time in the mirror

00:00:22.330 --> 00:00:24.163
and it was like, damn,

00:00:25.560 --> 00:00:27.540
I took a woman's life

00:00:27.540 --> 00:00:29.720
and that's the hardest thing to live with,

00:00:29.720 --> 00:00:31.293
is that I killed the woman.

00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:33.513
- I would choke her,

00:00:34.519 --> 00:00:35.970
I would push her down,

00:00:35.970 --> 00:00:37.440
I would hold her down.

00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:41.913
I was addicted to that dominance.

00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:44.100
- I've lied to her,

00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:45.870
I've spit down her,

00:00:45.870 --> 00:00:47.970
I have grabbed by the neck too, yes.

00:00:47.970 --> 00:00:51.180
I pushed her down to the dirt
and I stomped on her hand.

00:00:51.180 --> 00:00:52.870
- I remember cornering that girl

00:00:53.910 --> 00:00:56.287
and I physically beat the shit out of her.

00:00:57.600 --> 00:00:59.850
- My name is Deeyah Khan,

00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:02.430
I'm a filmmaker and activist.

00:01:02.430 --> 00:01:04.410
I've been fighting violence against women

00:01:04.410 --> 00:01:06.213
for the past 15 years.

00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:11.220
I wanted to meet the men
who abused their loved ones.

00:01:11.220 --> 00:01:14.820
I wanted to find out why
violence against women happens

00:01:14.820 --> 00:01:17.130
and how we can stop it.

00:01:17.130 --> 00:01:18.213
- I never cared.

00:01:19.230 --> 00:01:20.793
It was about me.

00:01:21.660 --> 00:01:23.280
- I'm in my house,

00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:26.460
so nobody's really gonna tell me anything.

00:01:26.460 --> 00:01:30.750
It feels like America's
phrase, land of the free.

00:01:30.750 --> 00:01:33.990
- There's a greater consequence
in the United States

00:01:33.990 --> 00:01:36.780
for killing a bald eagle

00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:39.600
than there is for assaulting your wife.

00:01:39.600 --> 00:01:41.250
- Y'all say y'all love us.

00:01:41.250 --> 00:01:43.170
Y'all say y'all wanna take care of us,

00:01:43.170 --> 00:01:44.940
but this is what you do,

00:01:44.940 --> 00:01:46.443
why are you doing what you do?

00:01:49.045 --> 00:01:50.111
- I'm sorry.

00:01:50.111 --> 00:01:51.528
- I know, I know.

00:01:59.944 --> 00:02:02.944
(audience cheering)

00:02:06.056 --> 00:02:08.883
♪ So go on, go on ♪

00:02:08.883 --> 00:02:11.274
♪ Come on, leave me breathless ♪

00:02:11.274 --> 00:02:13.421
♪ Tempt me, tease me ♪

00:02:13.421 --> 00:02:16.350
♪ Til I can't deny this ♪

00:02:16.350 --> 00:02:18.200
- [Deeyah Khan] So what was she like?

00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:20.573
- Lauren?

00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:27.780
Very funny, musical.

00:02:27.780 --> 00:02:29.130
She was so-

00:02:29.130 --> 00:02:31.503
- Curious and energetic.

00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:35.399
- [Mary] She was a- a firecracker.

00:02:35.399 --> 00:02:37.982
(both singing)

00:02:39.604 --> 00:02:42.003
♪ When is it my turn? ♪

00:02:42.003 --> 00:02:44.053
- [Deeyah Khan] This is Malcolm and Mary.

00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:48.090
At the age of 16, their
daughter, Lauren Ashley,

00:02:48.090 --> 00:02:51.000
started dating a fellow
student, Nate Fujita,

00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:53.133
at their high school in Massachusetts.

00:02:54.990 --> 00:02:58.140
- He was a bit of a hero
for the football team.

00:02:58.140 --> 00:02:59.823
It was her first relationship.

00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:03.420
And then it became fraught.

00:03:03.420 --> 00:03:07.410
She became very aware of
his trying to control her

00:03:07.410 --> 00:03:09.720
and he was not gonna let
her break up with him.

00:03:09.720 --> 00:03:11.883
He would find some way to be with her.

00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:16.053
And then once she really said it was over,

00:03:16.053 --> 00:03:19.140
I let my guard down, I was so relieved.

00:03:19.140 --> 00:03:23.310
But I hadn't realized his
anger was so great about this

00:03:23.310 --> 00:03:24.240
rejection.

00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.300
And in the two months
that she had this time

00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:29.343
where she started dating other people,

00:03:30.450 --> 00:03:32.460
his anger just built and built and built

00:03:32.460 --> 00:03:33.933
until he killed her.

00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:38.703
- [Deeyah Khan] One
day Lauren disappeared.

00:03:40.320 --> 00:03:42.180
A friend rang Malcolm to say that

00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:44.853
her car had been found at a nearby beach.

00:03:47.310 --> 00:03:48.760
Malcolm went to look for her.

00:03:51.630 --> 00:03:56.630
- I first had gone into the
water hoping I could find her.

00:03:59.700 --> 00:04:02.220
- [Deeyah Khan] A woman
cycling along the shoreline

00:04:02.220 --> 00:04:03.603
found her body.

00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:09.150
- [Malcolm] Her knee was out of the water.

00:04:09.150 --> 00:04:12.300
He apparently had tried very
hard to push her into the mud

00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:13.473
we learned later.

00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:16.860
But there was a fist out of the water,

00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:18.033
which I think of,

00:04:22.410 --> 00:04:24.720
a sense of her defiance.

00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:25.980
- [Deeyah Khan] A court found that

00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:28.560
Nate had lured Lauren to his garage.

00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.260
He strangled her and slashed her throat

00:04:31.260 --> 00:04:34.113
before trying to hide
her body in the marshes.

00:04:35.550 --> 00:04:40.550
- I just got totally stuck
in reimagining the moment.

00:04:43.140 --> 00:04:44.610
- And the neck wound.

00:04:44.610 --> 00:04:45.443
- Yeah.

00:04:45.443 --> 00:04:47.373
- We (indistinct) covered in.

00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:49.433
- Jagged.

00:04:51.214 --> 00:04:52.047
- The casket.

00:04:54.030 --> 00:04:55.713
- We had a scarf on her there.

00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.860
- I have gone to hard
reenactments in my own mind

00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:05.910
of coming into the garage
as Nate is killing Lauren.

00:05:05.910 --> 00:05:06.743
And

00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.400
it's a deep, deep struggle

00:05:14.400 --> 00:05:17.610
about what I could have or would have done

00:05:17.610 --> 00:05:20.043
if I'd gotten to that garage in time.

00:05:21.180 --> 00:05:24.330
- The coroner said that she was

00:05:24.330 --> 00:05:26.193
aware for a certain amount of time,

00:05:27.030 --> 00:05:28.280
probably a minute or two.

00:05:29.790 --> 00:05:34.790
That's, I always wonder if
she was calling out for us.

00:05:50.970 --> 00:05:53.020
- [Deeyah Khan] Nate was jailed for life.

00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.780
He never spoke during the
trial to explain what happened.

00:05:57.780 --> 00:05:59.190
But the prosecution alleged

00:05:59.190 --> 00:06:02.865
he'd murdered Lauren out
of rage and jealousy.

00:06:02.865 --> 00:06:03.698
- A great example of-

00:06:03.698 --> 00:06:06.690
- [Deeyah Khan] Malcolm and
Mary have set up a memorial fund

00:06:06.690 --> 00:06:09.060
to raise awareness for Lauren

00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:11.280
and to try to find out why men

00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:13.923
can be driven to such extreme acts.

00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:19.560
In America most female homicide victims

00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:23.490
are killed by their
current or former partner.

00:06:23.490 --> 00:06:28.143
One in four women experience
domestic violence or abuse.

00:06:29.340 --> 00:06:31.860
Some women abuse their partners too.

00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:35.313
But the large majority of
abusers and killers are men.

00:06:37.290 --> 00:06:40.740
Many victims say they'd
never seen it coming

00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:42.659
until it was too late.

00:06:42.659 --> 00:06:46.533
- [Recording] (indistinct)
February 22, 2017.

00:06:47.804 --> 00:06:51.236
- [911 Operator] 911,
where is your emergency?

00:06:51.236 --> 00:06:54.750
- [Deeyah Khan] In 2017,
emergency services in Baton Rouge

00:06:54.750 --> 00:06:56.351
received a call.

00:06:56.351 --> 00:06:58.109
- [Angela Gabriel] I've been shot,

00:06:58.109 --> 00:06:59.458
I can't breathe,

00:06:59.458 --> 00:07:03.129
my chest is getting heavy,
my feet are going numb.

00:07:03.129 --> 00:07:06.697
Please hurry, please
hurry, I don't want to die.

00:07:06.697 --> 00:07:08.880
- [Deeyah Khan] Angela
Gabriel had been shot

00:07:08.880 --> 00:07:11.190
by her partner, Carl Thompson,

00:07:11.190 --> 00:07:13.113
while she was lying in the bath.

00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:15.990
- He was standing in the bathroom door

00:07:15.990 --> 00:07:19.113
and I saw the last two gunshots.

00:07:20.340 --> 00:07:22.680
And when he stopped shooting,

00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:26.190
I say, "You shot me",

00:07:26.190 --> 00:07:30.120
And he says, "Look what
you made me do, Angie,

00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:31.497
you made me shoot you".

00:07:34.170 --> 00:07:36.480
- [Deeyah Khan] Doctors saved her life,

00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:39.030
but at a terrible cost.

00:07:39.030 --> 00:07:41.850
- My mom was standing
there and she was crying

00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:43.320
and she asked the doctor,

00:07:43.320 --> 00:07:47.790
'Is my baby permanently paralyzed?'

00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:49.290
And the doctor says, "Yes ma'am,

00:07:49.290 --> 00:07:51.140
your daughter will never walk again".

00:07:52.410 --> 00:07:57.330
My reaction to that news
was, "Mama don't cry,

00:07:57.330 --> 00:08:00.180
I just beat you to a diaper first".

00:08:00.180 --> 00:08:02.830
That's how I took the news
that I would be paralyzed.

00:08:03.960 --> 00:08:06.150
- [Deeyah Khan] Immediately
after he shot her,

00:08:06.150 --> 00:08:08.550
Carl also rang 911,

00:08:08.550 --> 00:08:12.120
confessing to the crime
and expressing remorse.

00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.061
- [Carl] Look, I just shot- (indistinct).

00:08:14.061 --> 00:08:15.394
- [911 Operator] Hello?

00:08:15.394 --> 00:08:16.227
- [Carl] I just shot-

00:08:16.227 --> 00:08:17.220
- [911 Operator] You shot your girlfriend?

00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:18.719
Where, what's your address?

00:08:18.719 --> 00:08:21.153
- [Carl] I need an ambulance, I'm sorry.

00:08:21.153 --> 00:08:23.463
- Like I said, initially when I came home,

00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:26.250
I couldn't turn over,

00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:29.373
I had to wait for my mom to get up,

00:08:30.210 --> 00:08:33.840
come help me roll in the
bed and help me get dressed.

00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.520
- [Deeyah Khan] Angela's partner was given

00:08:35.520 --> 00:08:37.383
45 years in prison.

00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:41.613
She has now made an
extraordinary decision.

00:08:42.510 --> 00:08:45.480
She visits groups of
convicted male abusers

00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:48.933
to speak to them face to
face about their actions.

00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:55.080
- [Deeyah Khan] Why would you
want to engage with abuser?

00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:58.830
- Because I know that they
actually have a story too.

00:08:58.830 --> 00:09:02.720
All the help comes to us as women

00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:07.020
and not trying to take away from the pain

00:09:07.020 --> 00:09:09.270
that they're inflicting on others,

00:09:09.270 --> 00:09:12.434
but there is something wrong with them.

00:09:12.434 --> 00:09:13.984
They are a victim of something.

00:09:19.560 --> 00:09:21.240
- [Deeyah Khan] Leslie Morgan Steiner

00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:24.153
is a Harvard educated
author and journalist.

00:09:25.470 --> 00:09:29.250
She says she was subjected to
years of control and brutality

00:09:29.250 --> 00:09:31.173
after marrying a Wall Street banker.

00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:34.230
- Five days before our wedding,

00:09:34.230 --> 00:09:35.800
his hands were around my neck

00:09:37.560 --> 00:09:40.530
and he squeezed really tightly

00:09:40.530 --> 00:09:41.970
and he used the choke hold to hit

00:09:41.970 --> 00:09:43.370
my head up against the wall.

00:09:44.640 --> 00:09:45.813
Five days later,

00:09:46.770 --> 00:09:49.983
I put on my mother's wedding
gown and I married him.

00:09:51.870 --> 00:09:55.143
And then he beat me twice
more on our honeymoon.

00:09:55.980 --> 00:09:59.280
He was abusing me very regularly,

00:09:59.280 --> 00:10:02.163
strangling me, pushing me
downstairs, beating me up.

00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.573
- Eventually Leslie escaped her husband.

00:10:07.620 --> 00:10:10.620
Like Angela, she's now
trying to understand

00:10:10.620 --> 00:10:13.980
why men beat the women they claim to love.

00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:16.530
- Although it's very
important to focus on victims

00:10:16.530 --> 00:10:20.040
and survivors of abuse and
get us the support we need,

00:10:20.040 --> 00:10:23.610
we are never gonna end
violence against women

00:10:23.610 --> 00:10:25.849
unless we help men.

00:10:25.849 --> 00:10:30.733
So you can't help an abuser
by saying you're evil.

00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:34.270
You have to come at them from the point of

00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.610
trying to gradually get them to see

00:10:38.610 --> 00:10:40.860
that they were victims themselves

00:10:40.860 --> 00:10:43.893
and that they're acting out
of that kind of pain and rage.

00:10:48.630 --> 00:10:51.480
- [Deeyah Khan] I spend months
and months trying to get

00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:53.433
a male abuser to speak to me.

00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:59.550
One center in Indiana, which
deals with domestic abusers,

00:10:59.550 --> 00:11:01.533
says they can line up a group of men,

00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.063
but no one turns up.

00:11:11.070 --> 00:11:14.820
- I'm not sure why it's been
so hard to get people here.

00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:17.370
I think the shame is too strong.

00:11:17.370 --> 00:11:20.610
Shows how difficult it is to get people

00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:25.610
to come and talk about
their most shameful moments.

00:11:25.650 --> 00:11:27.540
I don't know another way to say it.

00:11:27.540 --> 00:11:28.740
Maybe it can't be done.

00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:31.482
Maybe it just is a much longer road

00:11:31.482 --> 00:11:33.810
and the people we asked aren't ready.

00:11:33.810 --> 00:11:36.843
Or maybe they don't believe
their own change deep down.

00:11:39.090 --> 00:11:42.090
- [Deeyah Khan] Eventually one
man does agree to talk to me.

00:11:44.310 --> 00:11:48.243
Daniel says he wants to tell
his story to help warn others.

00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:53.700
He's recently been released from prison

00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:55.653
for what he did to his wife.

00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:00.063
- She was a beautiful person.

00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:02.643
I remember her laugh.

00:12:04.110 --> 00:12:07.200
I remember her smile, her freckles.

00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:08.793
I won't ever forget 'em,

00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:13.917
I won't ever forget 'em because-

00:12:22.380 --> 00:12:24.930
- [Deeyah Khan] Daniel says
before he met his wife,

00:12:24.930 --> 00:12:27.330
he had had a very troubled childhood

00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:28.893
and became a drug addict.

00:12:29.790 --> 00:12:32.853
He was in recovery when
he met his future wife.

00:12:35.070 --> 00:12:38.580
- In hindsight, I was masking
a whole lot of feelings

00:12:38.580 --> 00:12:41.460
that I was trying to run away from.

00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:44.100
And she ended up becoming a scapegoat

00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:47.820
to a lot of the feelings that
I was trying to run from.

00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:49.530
- [Deeyah Khan] He started
to develop feelings

00:12:49.530 --> 00:12:53.460
of anger and jealousy and
became very controlling.

00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:54.690
- She felt like,

00:12:54.690 --> 00:12:56.670
I remember her saying that she felt like

00:12:56.670 --> 00:12:59.070
she was walking on eggshells with me.

00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:01.772
- [Deeyah Khan] What was that
like for you to hear that?

00:13:01.772 --> 00:13:04.460
To hear your wife being afraid of you?

00:13:06.420 --> 00:13:08.430
- I didn't care,

00:13:08.430 --> 00:13:09.423
I didn't care.

00:13:10.260 --> 00:13:12.840
It made me feel like, "Oh, I'm, yeah,

00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:14.067
this is what you supposed to do.

00:13:14.067 --> 00:13:15.540
This is what you supposed,

00:13:15.540 --> 00:13:17.615
to make sure you instill fear in it,

00:13:17.615 --> 00:13:19.170
'cause you, if you instill fear in it,

00:13:19.170 --> 00:13:21.027
it's a controlling mechanism".

00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:24.480
- [Deeyah Khan] Why did
you need to control her?

00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.830
- Because I was afraid
that she would leave me.

00:13:27.900 --> 00:13:32.043
My biggest fear was of, was-
the feeling of being abandoned.

00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:36.183
I didn't want her to abandon me.

00:13:39.180 --> 00:13:41.730
- [Deeyah Khan] Daniel
had a good job as a chef,

00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:45.423
but after he lost his job,
he turned again to drugs.

00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.443
- That was the worst
thing I could have did,

00:13:50.970 --> 00:13:54.660
because I had lost all control then.

00:13:54.660 --> 00:13:56.850
I was a negative entity.

00:13:56.850 --> 00:14:00.310
That anger had infected my whole body

00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.273
and we became separated.

00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.603
But I became obsessive.

00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:09.930
And not only did I become obsessive,

00:14:09.930 --> 00:14:12.873
I became a stalker.

00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:16.323
That led up to the morning that it,

00:14:17.310 --> 00:14:19.023
I actually did what I did,

00:14:20.250 --> 00:14:23.223
when I went there on September the 19th,

00:14:25.170 --> 00:14:27.960
it was around six o'clock in the morning

00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:29.103
and I went there,

00:14:31.421 --> 00:14:33.273
and I was so angry.

00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:35.973
And I did not know,

00:14:36.948 --> 00:14:39.930
to the extent of how bad I reacted

00:14:39.930 --> 00:14:43.623
until I've seen the autopsy report.

00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.770
When I read the autopsy,

00:14:46.770 --> 00:14:50.340
I didn't know that I had
stabbed her multiple times.

00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:53.460
And it was one fatal blow

00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:56.460
and it was at the base of her neck,

00:14:56.460 --> 00:14:57.873
that was a fatal blow.

00:14:58.770 --> 00:15:00.930
That was that and,

00:15:00.930 --> 00:15:04.260
but I didn't know that it was 13 times,

00:15:04.260 --> 00:15:09.260
because I was so far in
the rage that it did it.

00:15:10.137 --> 00:15:12.880
And I jumped up and I ran

00:15:15.182 --> 00:15:16.015
and,

00:15:27.660 --> 00:15:28.493
and

00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.100
she had died

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:35.043
with her friend's mother
trying to save her.

00:15:38.310 --> 00:15:40.740
That's what shame feels like.

00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:42.360
Looking at self in the mirror

00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:44.260
and all you see is a monster

00:15:45.292 --> 00:15:46.773
and you hate what you see.

00:15:48.969 --> 00:15:50.552
I hated me so much.

00:15:51.810 --> 00:15:52.773
I hated me.

00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:03.113
It's been

00:16:05.250 --> 00:16:06.543
32 years,

00:16:08.250 --> 00:16:09.690
I think about it,

00:16:09.690 --> 00:16:11.373
but I think about it every day,

00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.973
because it's the worst
thing I could've ever done.

00:16:27.030 --> 00:16:29.943
- [Deeyah Khan] Daniel served
nearly 30 years for murder.

00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:34.200
He's now become a counselor for addicts

00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.140
and says he's trying to
find ways to help other men

00:16:37.140 --> 00:16:38.733
stop being violent.

00:16:41.850 --> 00:16:44.490
But he says he doesn't expect any sympathy

00:16:44.490 --> 00:16:48.453
and he makes no excuses for
the brutal murder he committed.

00:16:55.208 --> 00:16:57.300
I want to talk to more abusers,

00:16:57.300 --> 00:16:59.820
but it takes nearly another year of trying

00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:02.463
before I finally get another opening.

00:17:04.710 --> 00:17:07.350
The Family Peace Initiative in Kansas

00:17:07.350 --> 00:17:11.643
runs a battering intervention
program to reeducate abusers.

00:17:15.120 --> 00:17:19.900
Dorthy Halley co-runs the
project with her husband Steve.

00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:20.733
(indistinct chatter)

00:17:20.733 --> 00:17:22.080
- [Person Off-Camera] Unacceptable.

00:17:22.080 --> 00:17:23.730
- [Deeyah Khan] For the first time,

00:17:23.730 --> 00:17:25.980
the project has allowed cameras to record

00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:27.993
what happens at their meetings.

00:17:29.597 --> 00:17:30.702
- Good to see you.

00:17:30.702 --> 00:17:31.535
- Yeah.

00:17:34.973 --> 00:17:35.820
- Look at you.

00:17:35.820 --> 00:17:38.190
- [Deeyah Khan] Most men
are sent here by a court

00:17:38.190 --> 00:17:40.680
after committing or being suspected of

00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.260
domestic violence offenses.

00:17:43.260 --> 00:17:45.600
Even after completing the program,

00:17:45.600 --> 00:17:49.410
some men still drop in to
discuss their progress,

00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:52.016
men such as Anthony.

00:17:52.016 --> 00:17:53.163
- I'm Anthony.

00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:55.373
I'm

00:17:56.730 --> 00:18:00.900
anxious, nervous, scared.

00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:03.060
I've been physically abusive, you know,

00:18:03.060 --> 00:18:04.680
verbally abusive, emotionally,

00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:07.500
you know, like, and now it's,
you know, not to minimize,

00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:10.980
but a lot of times it's
verbal or emotional for me.

00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:12.750
And I can still get very manipulative.

00:18:12.750 --> 00:18:14.160
- Yeah.
- You know,

00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:16.928
very upset and angry and in those moments

00:18:16.928 --> 00:18:19.080
you don't think about that, you know,

00:18:19.080 --> 00:18:21.960
you just kinda lash out, feel bad later.

00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.810
It's just hard cause it's
just those demons coming out,

00:18:24.810 --> 00:18:27.160
you know, and having to
battle those every day.

00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:29.310
- [Deeyah Khan] Some of the men

00:18:29.310 --> 00:18:31.800
haven't used physical violence.

00:18:31.800 --> 00:18:34.770
- You know, I'm all about manipulation,

00:18:34.770 --> 00:18:37.140
emotional abuse, verbal abuse.

00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:38.970
So I didn't think that
I needed this program.

00:18:38.970 --> 00:18:40.230
This ain't for me.

00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:43.920
But then when I figured out
that different types of abuse,

00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.080
I seen the monster I was, you know,

00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:48.840
I seen that I had heard a lot of people,

00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:49.920
people that I love.

00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.167
I've learned things each
time, but I still mess up,

00:18:53.167 --> 00:18:55.530
you know, I still have
some of the same feelings

00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:59.370
and the more I talk to
people the better I feel.

00:18:59.370 --> 00:19:00.980
- Really, yeah, (indistinct),

00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.803
my house is the house everybody-

00:19:03.803 --> 00:19:06.886
(indistinct chatter)

00:19:12.390 --> 00:19:14.880
- [Deeyah Khan] Kenneth
picked the classes voluntarily

00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.673
after being abusive in both his marriages.

00:19:19.560 --> 00:19:22.337
- I've lied to her, I've spit on her,

00:19:22.337 --> 00:19:24.240
call 'em 'cunt', call em
'bitch', call 'em names,

00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:25.230
a lot of name calling.

00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:26.490
I've covered the mouths.

00:19:26.490 --> 00:19:28.790
I've done anything you do to quiet them.

00:19:28.790 --> 00:19:29.623
As a matter of fact,

00:19:29.623 --> 00:19:31.710
I've even pointed a gun
at her face one time.

00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:33.570
She says, I did, I don't remember.

00:19:33.570 --> 00:19:36.480
I remember pointing like
this off to the side,

00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.090
and I remember shot a gun
and the powder hit her.

00:19:39.090 --> 00:19:41.100
My first marriage, I remember,

00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:42.450
I remember I pushed her down to the dirt

00:19:42.450 --> 00:19:44.820
and I stomped on her
hand and I hurt her hand,

00:19:44.820 --> 00:19:45.970
her hand swelled up and

00:19:47.676 --> 00:19:48.663
crap,

00:19:52.830 --> 00:19:54.033
this crap,

00:19:58.770 --> 00:20:00.723
you can't take that stuff back.

00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:05.700
You know, some guys, you
know, think that's nothing.

00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:06.903
But it is, it's a lot.

00:20:08.580 --> 00:20:11.400
- [Deeyah Khan] In the end,
it was a simple conversation,

00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:13.590
which motivated him to stop

00:20:13.590 --> 00:20:15.843
and start to examine his behavior.

00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:19.410
- I've talked to my wife, she had said,

00:20:19.410 --> 00:20:22.473
you protect me from
everybody but yourself.

00:20:36.384 --> 00:20:41.051
When I recognized that, I
said, that's it, that's enough.

00:20:42.090 --> 00:20:43.740
I'm done.

00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:45.902
And I'm still searching myself,

00:20:45.902 --> 00:20:47.280
why, why?

00:20:47.280 --> 00:20:49.930
How can I say I love this
person and I'm hurting her?

00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:57.030
- [Deeyah Khan] So how
much of your relationship

00:20:57.030 --> 00:20:58.900
have you been violent, would you say?

00:21:01.390 --> 00:21:04.110
- 80%,

00:21:04.110 --> 00:21:06.000
85%.

00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.560
If we had to put it in a week frame,

00:21:07.560 --> 00:21:10.470
seven days out of the
week, I'd beat her five.

00:21:10.470 --> 00:21:12.420
I've kicked her in the face,

00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:13.743
punched her in the face,

00:21:14.760 --> 00:21:15.993
pulled out her hair.

00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:21.870
I struck her nose and she
started leaking blood really bad,

00:21:21.870 --> 00:21:23.880
made her clean up her own blood.

00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:25.830
I wouldn't laugh, I'd be
like, "ha, ha, ha, ha",

00:21:25.830 --> 00:21:26.663
like, "how do you like it"?

00:21:26.663 --> 00:21:27.720
Like insane shit.

00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:29.763
Like I would be insane sometimes, like.

00:21:33.270 --> 00:21:35.430
- [Deeyah Khan] This is Sean.

00:21:35.430 --> 00:21:36.750
I met him through a project for

00:21:36.750 --> 00:21:39.720
domestic violence perpetrators in Kansas,

00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.733
which he completed a few months ago.

00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:46.803
He is still trying to understand
why he acted this way.

00:21:48.120 --> 00:21:50.450
- With someone you have emotions with,

00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:52.590
when there's love,

00:21:52.590 --> 00:21:53.730
I feel like it's like a dice.

00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:55.890
You don't know what
side it's gonna land on.

00:21:55.890 --> 00:21:57.674
I just go from happy to

00:21:57.674 --> 00:21:59.260
just, I want to

00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:04.893
beat you up, you know, so bad.

00:22:05.820 --> 00:22:09.090
After arguing and after the fights,

00:22:09.090 --> 00:22:11.700
did I feel, "ugh", did I feel superior?

00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:13.380
Did I feel, "yeah",

00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:15.360
like I just did some type of drug?

00:22:15.360 --> 00:22:17.550
Even though I just beat up my wife,

00:22:17.550 --> 00:22:20.460
it made me feel the adrenaline,

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:22.800
and I don't know what
caused me to feel like that,

00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:25.440
but I felt like I was the man.

00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:30.123
I'm in my house, so nobody's
really gonna tell me anything.

00:22:32.227 --> 00:22:34.330
It, I don't know, it feels like

00:22:36.630 --> 00:22:40.020
America's phrase, land of the free.

00:22:40.020 --> 00:22:41.010
- [Deeyah Khan] Sean says,

00:22:41.010 --> 00:22:43.950
attending the Kansas
classes helped him realize

00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:45.480
what he'd done.

00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:46.313
- Oh, it was hard,

00:22:46.313 --> 00:22:48.510
it was the first time I've
ever looked into myself.

00:22:48.510 --> 00:22:51.963
Never once have I said
why am I the way I am?

00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:54.300
Why did I do that?

00:22:54.300 --> 00:22:57.450
I just never knew it was
so serious until now.

00:22:57.450 --> 00:22:59.910
I never knew how serious
domestic violence was.

00:22:59.910 --> 00:23:02.010
You can't take back what
you did, it's there.

00:23:02.010 --> 00:23:03.345
You're a piece of shit for that.

00:23:03.345 --> 00:23:06.420
For the rest of my life,
I'll be that piece of shit.

00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:07.253
But

00:23:09.757 --> 00:23:12.960
it's the- it's the process of getting out

00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:15.560
of the beginning and moving
to the end, I feel like.

00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:24.870
- I don't know if she
got her license or not.

00:23:24.870 --> 00:23:27.873
- [Deeyah Khan] The classes
are co-run by Dorthy Halley.

00:23:27.873 --> 00:23:29.030
- [Dorthy Halley] (indistinct) come in.

00:23:29.030 --> 00:23:30.749
- [Deeyah Khan] Thank you.

00:23:30.749 --> 00:23:33.443
- I think we'll talk just
right here in my office

00:23:33.443 --> 00:23:34.670
if that's okay with you?

00:23:34.670 --> 00:23:35.503
- [Deeyah Khan] That's great (indistinct).

00:23:35.503 --> 00:23:38.790
She tells me that when she first
started as a social worker,

00:23:38.790 --> 00:23:42.600
her only thought was to save
the women from their abusers.

00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:47.600
- Get this woman and these
kids away from the monster.

00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.723
And that's how I saw those who batter.

00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.460
And then Tina walked into my office

00:23:56.460 --> 00:24:01.460
and Tina was the seventh
victim of the same offender

00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.593
in a five year timeframe.

00:24:05.820 --> 00:24:09.213
And when Tina walked into
my office, I realized,

00:24:10.830 --> 00:24:12.690
seventh victim in five years,

00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:15.900
I don't wanna be working
with his 20th victim.

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.030
What are we gonna do with those who batter

00:24:18.030 --> 00:24:19.263
to get them to stop?

00:24:21.270 --> 00:24:23.520
What makes them tick?

00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:25.143
Why are they doing this?

00:24:26.550 --> 00:24:29.200
- [Deeyah Khan] She started
to work with the abusers.

00:24:30.090 --> 00:24:35.090
- Many of them have had challenges
in becoming non-violent.

00:24:35.580 --> 00:24:38.580
- [Deeyah Khan] But soon
realized that many of them

00:24:38.580 --> 00:24:41.820
were simply faking their
way through the classes.

00:24:41.820 --> 00:24:43.803
- If I'm not afraid,

00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:45.600
of feeling these.

00:24:45.600 --> 00:24:48.600
- As I worked with them I
realized I was getting them to say

00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:51.420
what I wanted them to say,

00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:56.260
and they could walk out
of the room and I had no

00:24:59.010 --> 00:24:59.920
comfort

00:25:01.020 --> 00:25:04.740
that they weren't going
to be violent again.

00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:08.590
And so I started thinking about

00:25:09.780 --> 00:25:12.510
helping them access their trauma,

00:25:12.510 --> 00:25:14.640
understand their trauma,

00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:19.173
not challenging them on
every belief they had,

00:25:20.430 --> 00:25:22.473
but humanizing them.

00:25:23.790 --> 00:25:28.790
I had to use what we
know works - connection.

00:25:29.497 --> 00:25:30.823
- [Person Off-Camera] I know.

00:25:30.823 --> 00:25:34.530
- I sit in on another class
run by one of the counselors,

00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:35.363
Tish,

00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:39.960
a high proportion of the
men who attend these classes

00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:42.453
report very traumatic childhoods.

00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:46.980
- What we've been doing
the last couple of weeks

00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:49.890
is we have been talking
about how cruelty flows

00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:52.320
from person to person, from
generation to generation,

00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:54.270
who's ready to get us started with just

00:25:54.270 --> 00:25:55.980
taking a look at that today?

00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.680
- [Deeyah Khan] Men such as Sean,

00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:01.230
he completed the course some years ago,

00:26:01.230 --> 00:26:04.350
but he still drops in to
provide help and support

00:26:04.350 --> 00:26:05.880
to the other men.

00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:08.100
- What's the cruelty that you experienced

00:26:08.100 --> 00:26:11.460
that hurt you the most
when you were growing up?

00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.940
- I would say the physical abuse or,

00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:16.290
you know, you're stupid,

00:26:16.290 --> 00:26:18.780
you're not gonna be nothing.

00:26:18.780 --> 00:26:20.801
- [Deeyah Khan] As well as
violence in his childhood

00:26:20.801 --> 00:26:21.634
- (indistinct) of a man.

00:26:21.634 --> 00:26:24.330
- [Deeyah Khan] Sean says he
also experienced sexual abuse.

00:26:24.330 --> 00:26:26.046
- [Tish] Can you talk
about that, what happened?

00:26:26.046 --> 00:26:27.712
- [Sean] I would say-

00:26:27.712 --> 00:26:28.545
- [Deeyah Khan] When he became an adult

00:26:28.545 --> 00:26:31.530
his relationships with women became toxic.

00:26:31.530 --> 00:26:35.190
- It went, honeymoon phase,

00:26:35.190 --> 00:26:36.640
and then it went to

00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:39.610
control

00:26:40.530 --> 00:26:43.830
and then it was my needs,
my needs came first.

00:26:43.830 --> 00:26:46.413
You want that power and
that control as a man.

00:26:47.340 --> 00:26:49.170
So there were certain
things within the addiction

00:26:49.170 --> 00:26:51.153
that I couldn't allow.

00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:55.770
- [Deeyah Khan] One day he
strangled his pregnant girlfriend

00:26:55.770 --> 00:26:57.303
until she passed out.

00:26:58.560 --> 00:27:00.923
- It's more like your adrenaline jumps in

00:27:00.923 --> 00:27:03.630
and hate and anger

00:27:03.630 --> 00:27:05.430
and everything that you want to release

00:27:05.430 --> 00:27:07.327
is coming outta your hands.

00:27:07.327 --> 00:27:09.210
"I'm gonna kill this bitch",

00:27:09.210 --> 00:27:10.770
that's all I thought.

00:27:10.770 --> 00:27:12.630
It's like a relief in a way,

00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:15.257
I know it sounds crazy,
but it is a relief.

00:27:16.122 --> 00:27:17.520
- [Deeyah Khan] The violence is a relief?

00:27:17.520 --> 00:27:20.283
- It is, because it's an addiction.

00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:23.400
When you physically put
your hands on somebody

00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:25.470
that is arguing with you,

00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:30.000
your control, the addiction
of that control is there.

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:30.833
- [Deeyah Khan] Feels good.

00:27:30.833 --> 00:27:34.290
- It's a, "I feel good, I'm in control".

00:27:34.290 --> 00:27:37.500
Like you're never gonna
talk to me that way again.

00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:39.030
- [Tish] You did incredible and-

00:27:39.030 --> 00:27:40.980
- [Deeyah Khan] These
men are asked not to use

00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:44.370
their childhood to justify what they did.

00:27:44.370 --> 00:27:46.650
- [Tish] What I heard
you basically say was,

00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:48.840
I just learned a message that

00:27:48.840 --> 00:27:50.937
that's not who I can be as a man.

00:27:50.937 --> 00:27:54.081
And the way out is to really understand

00:27:54.081 --> 00:27:56.426
I have to do something different.

00:27:56.426 --> 00:27:57.750
- Right.

00:27:57.750 --> 00:27:58.650
- Sean, thank you.

00:28:00.270 --> 00:28:01.920
What are the feelings we're running from?

00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.900
Because if we don't have
to run from those feelings,

00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:06.000
everything changes.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.640
- [Deeyah Khan] Instead of
making excuses for themselves,

00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.980
the men are encouraged
to acknowledge feelings

00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:12.690
that they may have buried.

00:28:12.690 --> 00:28:13.770
- Listening to Sean's story

00:28:13.770 --> 00:28:17.567
I just started having
flashbacks of my childhood.

00:28:17.567 --> 00:28:20.943
I'd be asleep and he'd come
in and start beating on me.

00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:23.490
I'd could be taking a shower,

00:28:23.490 --> 00:28:26.853
he'd be drunk and attack me
while I was in the shower.

00:28:28.590 --> 00:28:30.983
And to this day I still
don't have a shower curtain,

00:28:33.497 --> 00:28:36.723
'cause I want to know if there's
anything on the other side.

00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:41.033
Ugh.

00:28:42.450 --> 00:28:46.563
You know, I feel safe because
he's been gone for 13 years.

00:28:49.290 --> 00:28:51.390
But then again, if he was alive,

00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:54.750
I would just love people
to sit down and ask him,

00:28:54.750 --> 00:28:57.360
why did you treat us kids this way?

00:28:57.360 --> 00:28:58.920
- And so how did you see that playing out

00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:00.333
in your relationships?

00:29:03.060 --> 00:29:04.863
- Oh, I passed on this,

00:29:05.730 --> 00:29:08.313
the same cruelty that I've grew up with.

00:29:10.320 --> 00:29:11.880
- [Deeyah Khan] Kenneth
is another graduate

00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.100
of the Kansas classes.

00:29:14.100 --> 00:29:16.380
He tells me about his childhood.

00:29:16.380 --> 00:29:17.850
- [Deeyah Khan] What do you remember

00:29:17.850 --> 00:29:19.800
your father doing to your mother?

00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:22.650
- I remember beating on her,
hitting on her, hurting her.

00:29:24.518 --> 00:29:27.060
Next thing you know, I
thought I had a knife

00:29:27.060 --> 00:29:28.920
and I found out it was an ice pick,

00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:31.680
apparently I stabbed him 27 times,

00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.770
and the ambulance came and as
far as I know I killed my dad.

00:29:34.770 --> 00:29:37.967
They took him away and they
took us to foster homes.

00:29:37.967 --> 00:29:38.970
- [Deeyah Khan] How old were you?

00:29:38.970 --> 00:29:40.370
- I was like five years old.

00:29:41.730 --> 00:29:43.890
- [Deeyah Khan] After
attacking his father,

00:29:43.890 --> 00:29:45.960
Kenneth went into the care system,

00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.633
and was sexually and physically abused.

00:29:49.890 --> 00:29:53.013
- [Deeyah Khan] Do you remember
what that does to a person?

00:29:54.957 --> 00:29:56.583
- It's a horrible feeling.

00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:06.120
There's just some things that are inhumane

00:30:07.170 --> 00:30:08.583
that people do to people.

00:30:11.670 --> 00:30:12.750
I've come a long ways,

00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:15.000
but there's also been a lot of years of,

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.580
a lot of verbal violence, hatred.

00:30:17.580 --> 00:30:20.010
But I realized that because
I wasn't taken care of,

00:30:20.010 --> 00:30:22.560
the women never defended
me when I was a kid,

00:30:22.560 --> 00:30:24.450
my mother, the foster
cares, they're the ones

00:30:24.450 --> 00:30:26.610
that beat me up and all
these different things.

00:30:26.610 --> 00:30:28.496
I was basically repeating the same things

00:30:28.496 --> 00:30:30.623
that's been done to me,
continuing the abuse.

00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:35.820
- [Deeyah Khan] Many of the men say

00:30:35.820 --> 00:30:39.180
they've become trapped
in a cycle of trauma.

00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:40.837
- My biological father was
in prison my whole life,

00:30:40.837 --> 00:30:44.640
you know, and the way I felt
about him because of that,

00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:46.590
I've always thought, I
don't want my kids to feel

00:30:46.590 --> 00:30:49.020
about me the way I felt about my father.

00:30:49.020 --> 00:30:49.853
And

00:30:55.183 --> 00:30:58.766
it hurts that I've put
them exactly through

00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:02.460
what he put me through, you know,

00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:03.660
not being there for 'em.

00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:12.300
- When you would get abusive,

00:31:12.300 --> 00:31:17.300
that was at times when you
felt unloved or unlovable.

00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:21.900
- Yeah, unloved, unwanted, just really

00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:24.663
any negative emotion
that you can feel, sad.

00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:26.640
- Worthless.

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.020
- [Person Off-Camera]
Like a failure, worthless.

00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:29.343
Like I'm nothing.

00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:35.013
- Do you see yourself as better than them?

00:31:36.030 --> 00:31:38.700
Or in need of them?

00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:39.810
- In need.

00:31:39.810 --> 00:31:43.140
You feel weak if you
tell them that, you know,

00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:46.603
but inside, at least for
me, that's how I feel like,

00:31:46.603 --> 00:31:48.990
like you want to sound like a man,

00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:52.500
and like feel all like strong
and like, I don't need you.

00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:53.760
But deep down you do.

00:31:53.760 --> 00:31:54.840
'Cause you don't wanna be abandoned,

00:31:54.840 --> 00:31:56.610
you know, you don't wanna be alone.

00:31:56.610 --> 00:31:57.591
- So-

00:31:57.591 --> 00:31:59.730
- [Deeyah Khan] Over her long career,

00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:03.090
Dorthy has tried to understand
the complicated reasons

00:32:03.090 --> 00:32:06.077
why some men may become violent.

00:32:06.077 --> 00:32:08.700
- Some of them are sadistic.

00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:13.700
They actually enjoy the
torturing of their partner.

00:32:13.959 --> 00:32:17.910
Fortunately that's a small group.

00:32:17.910 --> 00:32:21.960
There are some that have privilege

00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.590
and believe they have the right to

00:32:25.590 --> 00:32:29.820
punish their partner
and be violent with them

00:32:29.820 --> 00:32:34.380
as a form of discipline
or if they had a bad day.

00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:39.380
There are also those who
are in it for survival,

00:32:39.630 --> 00:32:41.430
who are highly dependent,

00:32:41.430 --> 00:32:45.330
who do not see themselves as
better than their partner,

00:32:45.330 --> 00:32:49.983
but they themselves see
themselves as inferior.

00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:55.800
And unfortunately, those are the ones

00:32:55.800 --> 00:32:59.520
that can become the most dangerous

00:32:59.520 --> 00:33:02.223
when he believes it's over for good.

00:33:03.570 --> 00:33:08.220
When he believes that she is gone,

00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:12.900
having a terror and rage about them.

00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:15.003
That is survival based.

00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:19.713
If this person leaves, I am nothing.

00:33:20.760 --> 00:33:24.153
She is either an angel or a devil.

00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:26.613
Nothing in between.

00:33:28.050 --> 00:33:32.490
The thought that you could destroy me

00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:35.943
gives me license to destroy you first.

00:33:38.730 --> 00:33:42.450
- All right, so guys, let's
go ahead and get started.

00:33:42.450 --> 00:33:44.220
- So, I appreciate you coming, Marshall.

00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.110
- [Deeyah Khan] Marshall
was released from prison

00:33:46.110 --> 00:33:48.660
for drug offenses a year ago.

00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:52.050
The court sent him here to do the classes.

00:33:52.050 --> 00:33:54.570
- Just know there's always
somebody out there that

00:33:54.570 --> 00:33:57.240
can give you the wisdom or
point you in the right direction

00:33:57.240 --> 00:33:59.040
no matter what it is.

00:33:59.040 --> 00:33:59.910
As long as you look for it,

00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:02.160
you seek that out and you
want that for yourself,

00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:02.993
you'll find it.

00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:05.280
- And don't you be a stranger,

00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:07.050
you're welcome to come
hang out with us anytime.

00:34:07.050 --> 00:34:07.883
- Yes, ma'am.

00:34:09.540 --> 00:34:11.400
- [Deeyah Khan] Before he went to prison,

00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.610
Marshall attacked his
wife a number of times.

00:34:14.610 --> 00:34:18.600
- I would choke her,
I would push her down,

00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:19.650
I would hold her down.

00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:22.200
I picked her up and I
choked her so severely.

00:34:22.200 --> 00:34:23.553
She soiled her clothes,

00:34:24.390 --> 00:34:27.660
and was out like asleep, sleep.

00:34:27.660 --> 00:34:29.010
- [Deeyah Khan] Why choking?

00:34:29.010 --> 00:34:30.607
A lot of the men I've spoken to

00:34:30.607 --> 00:34:33.300
said that they would choke women.

00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:35.250
- She's very good with words.

00:34:35.250 --> 00:34:37.590
So I would go straight to the source

00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:40.380
of the problem and cut it off.

00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:44.883
I was addicted to that dominance.

00:34:45.810 --> 00:34:48.570
I know without a doubt that
it's not okay to harm a female

00:34:48.570 --> 00:34:50.850
for any reason, especially out of anger.

00:34:50.850 --> 00:34:52.380
- [Deeyah Khan] Even then you knew that?

00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:53.670
- Even then I knew that.

00:34:53.670 --> 00:34:55.696
- [Deeyah Khan] So you knew
you were doing the wrong thing.

00:34:55.696 --> 00:34:57.450
- Absolutely.

00:34:57.450 --> 00:34:59.363
- [Deeyah Khan] And you
did it anyway because?

00:35:07.632 --> 00:35:08.465
- I mean,

00:35:11.850 --> 00:35:12.873
because I could.

00:35:13.770 --> 00:35:16.350
Because she was weaker than I could,

00:35:16.350 --> 00:35:18.060
she was weaker than me.

00:35:18.060 --> 00:35:20.580
- [Deeyah Khan] Do you think there

00:35:20.580 --> 00:35:23.903
is a chance you could go
back to using violence again?

00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:30.650
- There's always a chance

00:35:32.730 --> 00:35:34.833
for a relapse, if you would.

00:35:36.450 --> 00:35:39.483
But with the right support group,

00:35:41.100 --> 00:35:43.800
the right kind of help that
I have, that I found here,

00:35:45.330 --> 00:35:46.680
it helps.

00:35:46.680 --> 00:35:47.733
It worked for me.

00:35:48.930 --> 00:35:51.810
So the likelihood of reoccurrence,

00:35:51.810 --> 00:35:55.020
I feel like is slightly less than,

00:35:55.020 --> 00:35:57.600
but it's still there because like I said,

00:35:57.600 --> 00:35:58.500
it's an addiction.

00:35:59.610 --> 00:36:01.503
And it's a recovery process.

00:36:02.940 --> 00:36:04.501
- Bring my cappuccino.

00:36:04.501 --> 00:36:05.334
- [Person Off-Camera]
Have to witness that.

00:36:05.334 --> 00:36:06.167
- Yes, absolutely.

00:36:06.167 --> 00:36:07.000
- Is that all right?

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:07.833
- Yes.
- I'll try to keep.

00:36:07.833 --> 00:36:09.470
- [Malcolm] This is
Marshall's wife, Lorie.

00:36:11.070 --> 00:36:12.930
Dorthy has asked her to come in,

00:36:12.930 --> 00:36:15.000
so she can talk to them together

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.890
and hear Lorie's side of the story.

00:36:16.890 --> 00:36:18.000
- He'll be like, you brought your drink?

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:18.900
I'm sorry.

00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:19.733
- I brought mine too.

00:36:19.733 --> 00:36:20.715
- Oh okay.

00:36:20.715 --> 00:36:22.650
I was gonna share, I was
gonna share with you.

00:36:22.650 --> 00:36:24.030
He's usually warm and I'm freezing.

00:36:24.030 --> 00:36:25.103
- What's on your shirt.

00:36:26.061 --> 00:36:26.894
- You do that every time,

00:36:26.894 --> 00:36:28.710
don't you be poking grandma in the eye.

00:36:28.710 --> 00:36:29.810
Shoot, she'll get you.

00:36:33.330 --> 00:36:35.520
- What are your thoughts now about

00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:37.293
the violence that occurred?

00:36:38.578 --> 00:36:39.870
- It was weird.

00:36:39.870 --> 00:36:41.550
One of the worst incidents I remember

00:36:41.550 --> 00:36:44.730
it was as I was passing
out from being choked,

00:36:44.730 --> 00:36:46.320
he was looking down and I could feel

00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:50.220
the tears falling on my face,
just pouring off his eyes.

00:36:50.220 --> 00:36:53.317
And he was saying, excuse my
language, "I effing love you",

00:36:53.317 --> 00:36:55.650
"I effing love you", and
that's all I could hear.

00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:57.150
And that's the last thing I heard.

00:36:57.150 --> 00:37:00.360
And I thought, this is
not good, this is sick.

00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:03.240
You know, dependent
hypo, something's wrong.

00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:06.150
It's despicable to kick
someone who's weaker than you.

00:37:06.150 --> 00:37:10.200
It is the epitome of weakness
in my mind, not strengths.

00:37:10.200 --> 00:37:11.670
The DA even predicted that.

00:37:11.670 --> 00:37:12.750
I remember.

00:37:12.750 --> 00:37:14.697
He's gonna come outta
prison, he's gonna kill you.

00:37:14.697 --> 00:37:16.980
And I thought we're gonna prove him wrong.

00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:19.770
And we're so far, of
course we have, thank God.

00:37:19.770 --> 00:37:21.930
Women need to have hope
and men need to understand

00:37:21.930 --> 00:37:24.840
they're not broken forever,
and they're not all monsters.

00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:29.253
Some are, some women,
but you're not a monster.

00:37:30.240 --> 00:37:31.073
- I was.

00:37:33.420 --> 00:37:35.220
- So it sounds like for you,

00:37:35.220 --> 00:37:38.490
you've learned to disengage

00:37:38.490 --> 00:37:40.863
when you're feeling what?

00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:44.633
- Mad

00:37:45.772 --> 00:37:47.793
or even sad sometimes.

00:37:48.990 --> 00:37:50.493
And afraid almost every time.

00:37:51.330 --> 00:37:54.093
- [Dorthy] What do you think
the fear is mostly about?

00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:56.010
Her being gone?

00:37:56.010 --> 00:37:56.948
- [Marshall] Yeah.

00:37:56.948 --> 00:37:57.803
- You being alone?

00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.063
Because?

00:38:01.680 --> 00:38:04.050
- Maybe I would feel like
I wasn't good enough.

00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:07.020
- [Dorthy] Can you share
with me where you got that?

00:38:07.020 --> 00:38:09.870
- Whenever I was a kid,
my mom and dad split up.

00:38:09.870 --> 00:38:12.960
She just left, I woke up the
next morning, mom was gone.

00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.530
From then on, I just felt like

00:38:16.290 --> 00:38:18.543
I wasn't good enough for a woman.

00:38:19.740 --> 00:38:22.055
So I would make myself

00:38:22.055 --> 00:38:25.080
be good enough by making her have to do

00:38:25.080 --> 00:38:26.530
what I was wanting her to do.

00:38:30.210 --> 00:38:31.660
- [Dorthy] So what about now?

00:38:34.110 --> 00:38:36.633
What if that happened
now, that you were alone?

00:38:43.772 --> 00:38:45.810
- I don't know.

00:38:45.810 --> 00:38:49.900
But I do know that my
actions and my choices

00:38:51.270 --> 00:38:53.763
won't be so much the
cause for her being gone.

00:38:56.220 --> 00:39:00.190
- I'm thinking about Leonard Cohen's poem

00:39:01.140 --> 00:39:03.831
about there is a crack in everything.

00:39:03.831 --> 00:39:04.890
- Yeah.

00:39:04.890 --> 00:39:08.823
- And I'm wondering when
that crack shows up,

00:39:09.870 --> 00:39:12.273
how are you going to stay safe?

00:39:13.142 --> 00:39:15.900
That's a lot of risk.

00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:17.070
- Yeah.

00:39:17.070 --> 00:39:20.010
I've suffered with that
decision a long while

00:39:20.010 --> 00:39:21.090
before he got out.

00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:23.520
The control issues that were there before

00:39:23.520 --> 00:39:25.440
have to be tested because I need to know

00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.522
that they're not gonna resurface,

00:39:27.522 --> 00:39:29.460
because that's where it starts.

00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:30.600
That's kind of in my mind.

00:39:30.600 --> 00:39:33.690
It's not with the hands they
put on you, it's the isolation,

00:39:33.690 --> 00:39:36.960
it's the grooming, it's the
tactics, it's the gaslighting.

00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:41.310
- [Dorthy] One of the things
that that we ask before someone

00:39:41.310 --> 00:39:43.507
completes the program-

00:39:43.507 --> 00:39:44.340
- (indistinct).

00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:47.160
- [Dorthy] Is that they write a letter

00:39:47.160 --> 00:39:51.693
as a method of them acknowledging
what they have done.

00:39:53.130 --> 00:39:55.350
- Never is it okay for
a man to put his hands

00:39:55.350 --> 00:39:58.473
on a female for any reason,
especially out of anger.

00:39:59.520 --> 00:40:02.463
Women are killed every day
out the hands of men like me,

00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:07.290
they don't want the help or
didn't get the help they needed.

00:40:07.290 --> 00:40:08.313
I am sorry, Love.

00:40:11.462 --> 00:40:13.379
- I absolutely love it.

00:40:17.144 --> 00:40:17.977
Thank you.

00:40:20.212 --> 00:40:22.795
It's all right, it's all right.

00:40:26.562 --> 00:40:28.020
- I'm sorry.

00:40:28.020 --> 00:40:29.437
- I know, I know.

00:40:37.667 --> 00:40:38.500
Thank you.

00:40:39.544 --> 00:40:41.385
- Ms. Dorthy, it was
nice to meet you again.

00:40:41.385 --> 00:40:44.124
- I'm going to be thinking about you.

00:40:44.124 --> 00:40:45.690
- I'll be in touch.

00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:46.620
- That sound wonderful.

00:40:46.620 --> 00:40:48.270
- Very soon.

00:40:48.270 --> 00:40:49.103
Just to follow.

00:40:49.103 --> 00:40:50.490
- [Deeyah Khan] Before they leave

00:40:50.490 --> 00:40:53.527
I talk to Lorie by herself.

00:40:53.527 --> 00:40:55.020
- [Person Off-Camera] You want
to clap or do you want Clap?

00:40:55.020 --> 00:40:56.197
- [Deeyah Khan] Actually if you can clap.

00:40:56.197 --> 00:40:58.073
- Oh, I'm gonna doing this?

00:40:58.073 --> 00:40:58.906
- [Deeyah Khan] Yeah, just one.

00:40:58.906 --> 00:40:59.739
- Okay.

00:40:59.739 --> 00:41:00.870
- [Deeyah Khan] Clap, yeah.
- Ready?

00:41:00.870 --> 00:41:03.120
- [Deeyah Khan] I asked
her about one of the times

00:41:03.120 --> 00:41:04.740
Marshall attacked her.

00:41:04.740 --> 00:41:07.980
So you said something
about "His eyes change".

00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:11.460
- Yes, I knew my life was in danger.

00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:13.170
I did not know who that person was.

00:41:13.170 --> 00:41:17.430
The eyes were black and
blank and terrifying.

00:41:17.430 --> 00:41:19.110
And I thought, he's
gonna kill me this time.

00:41:19.110 --> 00:41:20.550
That person can kill me.

00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:22.140
He kept choking me to the point where

00:41:22.140 --> 00:41:24.000
I knew I was going out
for like the third time.

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:25.320
I blacked out.

00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:27.090
And, when I woke up,

00:41:27.090 --> 00:41:28.800
he was still applying the same pressure.

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.693
I'll never forget, he got up,

00:41:33.785 --> 00:41:36.300
and he reached down into my shirt pocket

00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:37.710
and took a pack of cigarettes out,

00:41:37.710 --> 00:41:40.311
which is part of what he
was mad at me for too.

00:41:40.311 --> 00:41:42.513
And he lit one while he stood over me,

00:41:44.100 --> 00:41:47.820
and threw one to his friend
and he flipped his ashes on me.

00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:49.780
And I was still trying to breathe.

00:41:50.700 --> 00:41:53.580
And again, I saw that face and I thought,

00:41:53.580 --> 00:41:54.990
I'm trash to him.

00:41:54.990 --> 00:41:56.940
He just, he did this to me

00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.990
and I haven't even got off the floor yet.

00:42:00.249 --> 00:42:03.330
And he's demonstrating my worthlessness

00:42:03.330 --> 00:42:06.600
or my weakness to this asshole.

00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:10.230
I can't die like this, he
can't be my extinction event,

00:42:10.230 --> 00:42:11.157
how did I not know?

00:42:11.157 --> 00:42:13.800
And I wanted so badly, for my weakness,

00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:18.540
I saw it as, for my
failure to defend myself,

00:42:18.540 --> 00:42:21.663
I wanted to redeem myself, I was angry.

00:42:22.620 --> 00:42:24.690
And instead of getting away from it,

00:42:24.690 --> 00:42:26.880
I decided, surely I can cure it.

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:28.233
I can love it better.

00:42:30.630 --> 00:42:31.770
- [Deeyah Khan] I asked Lorie,

00:42:31.770 --> 00:42:34.503
if she's certain she
won't be abused again.

00:42:36.502 --> 00:42:39.543
- Oh, I'll know tonight.

00:42:44.640 --> 00:42:48.415
On the way home maybe,
but I don't think so.

00:42:48.415 --> 00:42:50.220
I don't think so.

00:42:50.220 --> 00:42:52.320
I don't see that happening.

00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:53.883
I wanna see what happens,

00:42:55.170 --> 00:42:58.950
because I'm hoping and hoping and hoping

00:42:58.950 --> 00:43:00.100
that it doesn't happen.

00:43:02.640 --> 00:43:04.500
But yeah, I guess I'm betting my life

00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:06.629
that he's a different person.

00:43:06.629 --> 00:43:08.429
That he's fixing something in there.

00:43:10.114 --> 00:43:11.943
I have to believe that's fixed.

00:43:15.420 --> 00:43:17.850
- [Deeyah Khan] After the
meeting, Dorthy asks Lorie

00:43:17.850 --> 00:43:19.923
if she wants to leave Marshall now.

00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:24.720
Lorie decides not to.

00:43:24.720 --> 00:43:28.473
So instead, Dorthy puts
safety protocols in place.

00:43:29.670 --> 00:43:32.430
She says she'll stay in
close contact with Lorie

00:43:32.430 --> 00:43:35.613
and help her leave
immediately if she wishes.

00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:47.742
- [Deeyah Khan] Are you worried for her?

00:43:47.742 --> 00:43:48.575
For Lorie?

00:43:48.575 --> 00:43:49.943
- Am I worried for her?

00:43:49.943 --> 00:43:51.330
- [Deeyah Khan] Yes.
- Oh yes.

00:43:51.330 --> 00:43:53.073
I am very worried for her.

00:43:54.240 --> 00:43:56.670
My fear is really that

00:43:56.670 --> 00:43:57.970
he is still

00:44:00.660 --> 00:44:01.810
in large part

00:44:03.270 --> 00:44:05.907
focused on saying the right things

00:44:05.907 --> 00:44:10.907
and you could feel his
desire to control her.

00:44:12.810 --> 00:44:15.123
It was palpable in the room.

00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:18.393
She is in a very tight spot,

00:44:19.620 --> 00:44:21.423
trying to say the right thing.

00:44:22.680 --> 00:44:27.003
At the same time that she's terrified,

00:44:29.220 --> 00:44:31.083
he still has the desperation.

00:44:31.950 --> 00:44:35.757
Sooner or later he's going
to get that feeling again

00:44:35.757 --> 00:44:39.753
of, oh my gosh, she's going to abandon me.

00:44:42.510 --> 00:44:45.663
I cannot guarantee her safety.

00:44:46.950 --> 00:44:48.820
All I can do is say that

00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:55.363
we've done some safety
planning with both of them and

00:44:58.830 --> 00:45:02.043
hopefully they'll reach out if
things get difficult tonight.

00:45:05.220 --> 00:45:10.220
The vast majority do make positive change.

00:45:10.470 --> 00:45:15.470
The reality is some won't,
some will continue to batter.

00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:26.640
- [Deeyah Khan] Since I film with them,

00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:30.033
Dorthy tells me that Marshall
and Lorie are still together.

00:45:31.950 --> 00:45:34.270
Marshall is still taking the classes

00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:38.883
and they're still working
on their relationship.

00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:48.643
So was your wife afraid of you?

00:45:48.643 --> 00:45:51.040
- I think she was afraid of

00:45:52.027 --> 00:45:54.870
"What's gonna set Dave off today?"

00:45:54.870 --> 00:45:58.173
And he flings into rage.

00:45:59.550 --> 00:46:01.380
- [Deeyah Khan] This is David.

00:46:01.380 --> 00:46:03.810
He never physically assaulted his wife,

00:46:03.810 --> 00:46:06.870
but he did refer himself to
a domestic violence project

00:46:06.870 --> 00:46:10.533
in Massachusetts after years
of verbally abusing her.

00:46:12.878 --> 00:46:14.630
- In the beginning I wrote off

00:46:15.990 --> 00:46:19.510
not doing anything physical as

00:46:20.962 --> 00:46:22.957
"I'm not as bad as those guys",

00:46:22.957 --> 00:46:24.807
"I'm better than those guys".

00:46:26.040 --> 00:46:28.740
And then I finally realized
after taking responsibility

00:46:28.740 --> 00:46:31.320
that it didn't matter,

00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:33.573
it was all pretty much the same thing.

00:46:35.580 --> 00:46:38.940
- [Deeyah Khan] One final
incident disturbed him.

00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:40.860
- She was at the stove.

00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:43.050
I was putting dishes away.

00:46:43.050 --> 00:46:45.840
I think she was yelling too,
but I know I was yelling

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.510
and I'm putting a sharp knife away,

00:46:48.510 --> 00:46:50.017
putting it away thinking,

00:46:50.017 --> 00:46:53.460
"Boy, I'm really angry right now,

00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:56.400
my wife is right next to
me and I have a knife.

00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:58.023
This is a real bad situation.

00:46:59.370 --> 00:47:02.007
If I go much further,
I could just use it".

00:47:04.140 --> 00:47:06.190
I felt like I could do it if I wanted to,

00:47:08.850 --> 00:47:09.963
I could go further,

00:47:14.850 --> 00:47:19.650
that I felt like I could
cross that boundary

00:47:19.650 --> 00:47:21.033
scared the hell out of me.

00:47:23.597 --> 00:47:26.200
And I put that knife away and stopped.

00:47:27.570 --> 00:47:32.070
Before the rage I always
felt I was stressed out.

00:47:32.070 --> 00:47:37.070
The job, the car, the
traffic, the wife, the kids,

00:47:37.170 --> 00:47:39.300
it felt like I was in a cage.

00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:44.190
You know, all kind of
closed in, nowhere to move.

00:47:44.190 --> 00:47:45.633
Can't get out of this thing.

00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:51.180
And the flip could be at home,
the flip could be in the car,

00:47:51.180 --> 00:47:54.080
it wouldn't be in a restaurant,
it wouldn't be in a store.

00:47:54.930 --> 00:47:58.233
So there's no witnesses, basically.

00:47:59.700 --> 00:48:02.310
You know, my wife and
I have stayed together.

00:48:02.310 --> 00:48:03.183
Things are good.

00:48:04.680 --> 00:48:06.280
I know the wound is still there

00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:10.560
and it's probably still a large wound.

00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:13.120
I would highly recommend for anybody

00:48:15.930 --> 00:48:19.300
who has a spouse that is so full of rage

00:48:21.118 --> 00:48:24.040
that they either get
into program real quick

00:48:25.770 --> 00:48:29.343
about domestic violence or leave.

00:48:31.620 --> 00:48:34.563
To walk fast in the other direction.

00:48:39.180 --> 00:48:41.670
- [Deeyah Khan] I'm traveling
across America meeting men

00:48:41.670 --> 00:48:44.733
who have abused and even
killed their partners.

00:48:46.410 --> 00:48:48.840
I'm trying to find out why they do it

00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.343
and how we can stop it.

00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.810
The domestic violence
program, which David attended,

00:48:54.810 --> 00:48:57.633
was run by a psychologist, David Adams.

00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:01.953
He spent years working with abusers.

00:49:04.620 --> 00:49:07.620
He tells me he dedicated
himself to this job

00:49:07.620 --> 00:49:10.113
because of the events
of his own childhood.

00:49:11.580 --> 00:49:13.950
- My father was physically abusive,

00:49:13.950 --> 00:49:16.080
psychologically abusive to my mother,

00:49:16.080 --> 00:49:19.110
it ended our family.

00:49:19.110 --> 00:49:21.180
My father would get upset.

00:49:21.180 --> 00:49:23.940
He would break something or he'd yelled

00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:26.790
or he'd hit somebody in our family.

00:49:26.790 --> 00:49:30.060
And that was very powerful for
me as a young man seeing that

00:49:30.060 --> 00:49:34.473
because it was kind of like,
oh my God, you know like,

00:49:35.550 --> 00:49:38.190
he takes out his anger on other people,

00:49:38.190 --> 00:49:40.590
that's a thing that you can do, right?

00:49:40.590 --> 00:49:42.930
I think I was beginning to
mimic my father's behavior

00:49:42.930 --> 00:49:44.790
towards my mother a little bit.

00:49:44.790 --> 00:49:48.090
And I think that I probably
would've started down that path,

00:49:48.090 --> 00:49:51.723
you know, myself if my
mother had not died.

00:49:53.130 --> 00:49:57.070
So doing this work for me has always been

00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:03.560
for my mother feeling survivor guilt.

00:50:07.796 --> 00:50:12.273
When she was with me, I
could not stop blaming her.

00:50:21.930 --> 00:50:23.430
- [Deeyah Khan] David has now arranged

00:50:23.430 --> 00:50:26.613
to give therapy sessions
to a man I've already met.

00:50:28.050 --> 00:50:31.260
Daniel has been recently
released from prison

00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:34.473
after murdering his
wife over 30 years ago.

00:50:35.370 --> 00:50:38.820
Now he's going to undergo
therapy to go back over

00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:42.183
his whole life and try to
understand what happened.

00:50:43.350 --> 00:50:46.560
They start by discussing
something they have in common,

00:50:46.560 --> 00:50:48.123
a damaged childhood.

00:50:49.003 --> 00:50:50.460
- When I was growing up,

00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:53.790
my father never had a
conversation with me.

00:50:53.790 --> 00:50:55.830
And I started when I was five years old.

00:50:55.830 --> 00:50:57.810
'Cause I had so much fear of my father.

00:50:57.810 --> 00:50:58.650
- Yeah.

00:50:58.650 --> 00:51:01.200
- At that time he had
put that much fear in me.

00:51:01.200 --> 00:51:04.560
And by 12 years old, I'm fighting him.

00:51:04.560 --> 00:51:06.620
I'm trying to fight him, you know,

00:51:06.620 --> 00:51:10.290
because I didn't know what
to do with my emotions.

00:51:10.290 --> 00:51:13.653
And that was something that
we didn't have in our house.

00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.140
- There's lots of people that have

00:51:16.140 --> 00:51:17.643
crappy upbringings, right?

00:51:21.162 --> 00:51:23.253
They still don't kill their wives.

00:51:24.540 --> 00:51:27.390
It actually makes them
want to be the opposite.

00:51:27.390 --> 00:51:30.600
So for me, my anger towards my father took

00:51:30.600 --> 00:51:32.970
the direction of not
wanting to be like him,

00:51:32.970 --> 00:51:34.413
wanting to be the opposite.

00:51:36.060 --> 00:51:38.370
- But I became one like him.

00:51:38.370 --> 00:51:40.290
- Not respecting weakness, not like,

00:51:40.290 --> 00:51:42.780
having contempt for people who are weak.

00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:45.333
- Yeah, I've cussed my mother out.

00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:52.350
I even destroyed some things in the house.

00:51:52.350 --> 00:51:53.730
- Why were you angry at her?

00:51:53.730 --> 00:51:54.760
- Because

00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:01.290
she wasn't there for me when
I was growing up either.

00:52:01.290 --> 00:52:02.123
- Okay.

00:52:03.408 --> 00:52:05.950
so you're angry at the person

00:52:07.200 --> 00:52:09.570
who's easy to get angry at, right?

00:52:09.570 --> 00:52:10.403
- Yeah.

00:52:10.403 --> 00:52:12.940
- You can't get angry at
the person you're afraid of.

00:52:15.240 --> 00:52:16.740
But I would say, Daniel,

00:52:16.740 --> 00:52:19.530
that you have no idea
what your mother was like.

00:52:19.530 --> 00:52:22.530
She's doing things to appease your father.

00:52:22.530 --> 00:52:25.770
She's not her own person
and you're judging her,

00:52:25.770 --> 00:52:29.133
you're angry at her, she's the
easy person to be angry at.

00:52:30.994 --> 00:52:33.390
And then you extend that anger towards

00:52:33.390 --> 00:52:35.313
the women that you get involved with.

00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:39.690
Taking your anger out on women, right?

00:52:39.690 --> 00:52:43.200
I mean, that's basically the most,

00:52:43.200 --> 00:52:46.143
the way that you copied him.

00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:48.843
- I didn't know how to grow up.

00:52:49.830 --> 00:52:51.780
I didn't know what it took to be a man.

00:52:51.780 --> 00:52:54.273
I always heard this is what men do,

00:52:55.140 --> 00:52:57.030
but I didn't know how to do it.

00:52:57.030 --> 00:52:59.430
Most important, I own what I did.

00:52:59.430 --> 00:53:01.710
I live with that every day.

00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:04.080
- One of the reasons I really
wanted to talk with you

00:53:04.080 --> 00:53:08.700
is because it's very unusual, you know,

00:53:08.700 --> 00:53:11.400
to meet somebody who's killed his partner

00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:13.470
that actually takes responsibility.

00:53:13.470 --> 00:53:18.470
Just of the 51 killers I interviewed,

00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:21.750
you know, in Massachusetts,

00:53:21.750 --> 00:53:23.310
one,

00:53:23.310 --> 00:53:26.310
one of them took responsibility.

00:53:26.310 --> 00:53:28.320
Every single other one was still

00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:31.200
blaming his ex-partner, right?

00:53:31.200 --> 00:53:33.120
Still presenting her as if

00:53:33.120 --> 00:53:35.400
she was some sort of a devil, you know?

00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:39.873
And they still haven't learned a thing.

00:53:43.890 --> 00:53:45.630
- [Deeyah Khan] David puts me in contact

00:53:45.630 --> 00:53:47.850
with an organization which runs a refuge

00:53:47.850 --> 00:53:51.213
for women and children,
Synergy in Missouri.

00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:55.560
Sara Brammer is one of the directors.

00:53:55.560 --> 00:53:58.454
- [Deeyah Khan] It's
nice to meet you finally.

00:53:58.454 --> 00:53:59.287
I'm Deeyah.

00:53:59.287 --> 00:54:00.120
- Oh, hi.

00:54:00.120 --> 00:54:02.350
We have all of their basic needs.

00:54:02.350 --> 00:54:05.310
From toothpaste to tampons,

00:54:05.310 --> 00:54:06.770
anything that they need when they come in,

00:54:06.770 --> 00:54:08.670
so you can get in and out.

00:54:08.670 --> 00:54:10.950
- [Deeyah Khan] Synergy has
the space and facilities

00:54:10.950 --> 00:54:13.020
to keep some women and children safe

00:54:13.020 --> 00:54:15.123
from their abusers in an emergency.

00:54:16.020 --> 00:54:19.173
I ask if I can meet one of
the families staying here now.

00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:23.340
The danger is so great that none of them

00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:26.313
want to take the risk of
sharing their story with me.

00:54:28.110 --> 00:54:30.420
But Sara is catching up with a woman

00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:33.483
who she helped escape from
a very violent husband,

00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:38.850
because of the continued
risk she's staying anonymous.

00:54:38.850 --> 00:54:40.290
- Thanks for coming in today.

00:54:40.290 --> 00:54:43.710
I appreciate your time to
talk to me a little bit about

00:54:43.710 --> 00:54:45.840
your relationship with your husband.

00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:48.473
Can you tell me a little bit
about what brought you in?

00:54:51.390 --> 00:54:53.250
- [Interviewee] I was
terrified in my own home

00:54:53.250 --> 00:54:56.523
for my safety, for my kids' safety.

00:54:57.720 --> 00:55:01.770
And I believe that he
was going to kill us.

00:55:01.770 --> 00:55:03.540
He also said we were his property

00:55:03.540 --> 00:55:06.780
and he would do with us
whatever he wanted to.

00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:09.080
- Tell me the worst
incident you can remember.

00:55:09.990 --> 00:55:11.705
- [Interviewee] We were gonna be intimate,

00:55:11.705 --> 00:55:14.460
I did not realize that there
was a firearm in the bed.

00:55:14.460 --> 00:55:16.830
He held me down with one of his arms

00:55:16.830 --> 00:55:21.090
and then took the firearm and
raped me with his other hand.

00:55:21.090 --> 00:55:22.980
- Oh, he used the firearm inside of you?

00:55:22.980 --> 00:55:23.880
- [Interviewee] Yes.

00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.657
To terrify me more of,

00:55:25.657 --> 00:55:27.270
"Look, what I can do to you",

00:55:27.270 --> 00:55:29.577
is the only thing that I can think.

00:55:32.010 --> 00:55:32.910
- [Deeyah Khan] Sara says,

00:55:32.910 --> 00:55:35.040
they're overwhelmed by the sheer volume

00:55:35.040 --> 00:55:37.800
of requests for help, which they receive.

00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:42.150
- The need far outweighs
the amount of services

00:55:42.150 --> 00:55:43.443
that we can provide.

00:55:45.540 --> 00:55:48.510
We don't have funding to
provide more services.

00:55:48.510 --> 00:55:50.310
Every day we turn people away.

00:55:50.310 --> 00:55:52.620
Last year, I think the
number is 1600 people

00:55:52.620 --> 00:55:53.760
were turned away.

00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:56.700
And all of those people who
we turn away need things,

00:55:56.700 --> 00:55:59.610
need our help, need a way out.

00:55:59.610 --> 00:56:01.740
There are more animal
shelters in the United States

00:56:01.740 --> 00:56:04.290
than there are shelters for
domestic violence survivors

00:56:04.290 --> 00:56:05.160
and their families.

00:56:05.160 --> 00:56:08.493
So what do we value in this country?

00:56:09.540 --> 00:56:13.410
- [Deeyah Khan] It's impossible
to make every woman safe,

00:56:13.410 --> 00:56:16.440
so Synergy spends a lot of
time helping male abusers

00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:19.863
confront their past
actions and try to reform.

00:56:20.940 --> 00:56:22.711
- My name is Billy,

00:56:22.711 --> 00:56:25.110
I am here because I chose to physically

00:56:25.110 --> 00:56:27.210
abuse my ex-girlfriend Debbie.

00:56:27.210 --> 00:56:30.449
I chose to abuse Debbie with a bat.

00:56:30.449 --> 00:56:33.300
I had struck her repeatedly with it.

00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:34.170
- How many times?

00:56:34.170 --> 00:56:39.170
- Oh, I would say eight to ten times.

00:56:39.510 --> 00:56:40.770
Very nearly killed her.

00:56:40.770 --> 00:56:43.325
It was actually a miracle
that she didn't die.

00:56:43.325 --> 00:56:44.400
- [Sara Brammer] Yeah,
hitting somebody with a bat

00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:45.900
eight to ten times.
- Right, right.

00:56:45.900 --> 00:56:47.963
- You're lucky she didn't die.

00:56:47.963 --> 00:56:49.400
I mean, the truth of the matter is,

00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:51.780
is that if we don't address the offender,

00:56:51.780 --> 00:56:55.470
he won't get better, he'll
just continue to be abusive.

00:56:55.470 --> 00:56:57.180
We see it time and time again.

00:56:57.180 --> 00:57:00.990
They go into a another
relationship and do the same thing

00:57:00.990 --> 00:57:03.843
but faster because they're practiced.

00:57:04.768 --> 00:57:07.153
- I'd say I've always known It's wrong,

00:57:07.153 --> 00:57:10.200
I just didn't care, you know?

00:57:10.200 --> 00:57:13.020
But now I care that it's wrong.

00:57:13.020 --> 00:57:14.400
- [Deeyah Khan] Sara tells me that

00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.370
one theme often comes
up in these meetings,

00:57:17.370 --> 00:57:19.950
how lenient the courts can be.

00:57:19.950 --> 00:57:21.180
- The first time I ever got

00:57:21.180 --> 00:57:23.850
a domestic violence case - probation,

00:57:23.850 --> 00:57:25.622
second one - probation,

00:57:25.622 --> 00:57:29.220
third one - 90 days in jail.

00:57:29.220 --> 00:57:33.990
And they were all physically,
blood involved, violence.

00:57:33.990 --> 00:57:35.910
- [Deeyah Khan] After all these assaults,

00:57:35.910 --> 00:57:39.840
Josh brutally attacked
his partner one more time.

00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:41.280
- The incident that got me here

00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:44.250
started in the parking lot of my apartment

00:57:44.250 --> 00:57:46.710
where I dragged her out of the car,

00:57:46.710 --> 00:57:49.260
I then forced her into my apartment,

00:57:49.260 --> 00:57:52.920
forced her onto the bed and
started to strangle her.

00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:53.847
The more she would fight back,

00:57:53.847 --> 00:57:56.460
the more I'd punch her in the stomach

00:57:56.460 --> 00:57:58.950
and strangle her even more.

00:57:58.950 --> 00:58:00.900
- [Deeyah Khan] For this sustained attack

00:58:00.900 --> 00:58:04.500
Josh served just three years in prison.

00:58:04.500 --> 00:58:07.290
- What would've been a reasonable.

00:58:07.290 --> 00:58:08.970
- All the stuff?
- [Sara Brammer] Yeah.

00:58:08.970 --> 00:58:10.200
- 10 years plus?

00:58:10.200 --> 00:58:11.201
- [Sara Brammer] 10 years plus?

00:58:11.201 --> 00:58:12.060
- For sure.

00:58:12.060 --> 00:58:13.980
- How long do you think
she'll suffer from the abuse?

00:58:13.980 --> 00:58:14.970
- Forever.

00:58:14.970 --> 00:58:17.637
- She's gonna probably
have ramifications for that

00:58:17.637 --> 00:58:19.380
for the rest of her freaking life.

00:58:19.380 --> 00:58:22.650
- She probably won't
trust another guy ever.

00:58:22.650 --> 00:58:25.830
- There's a greater consequence
in the United States

00:58:25.830 --> 00:58:28.680
for killing a bald eagle

00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:31.680
than there is for assaulting your wife.

00:58:31.680 --> 00:58:35.280
to abuse your wife, even
if you abuse her so much

00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:37.023
that she needs stitches.

00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:41.970
You might get off with probation.

00:58:41.970 --> 00:58:44.100
A certain number of our population,

00:58:44.100 --> 00:58:46.700
or amount of our population
is saying, this is okay,

00:58:48.540 --> 00:58:51.150
we're gonna give you a pass this time.

00:58:51.150 --> 00:58:52.650
It should never be okay.

00:58:52.650 --> 00:58:55.350
Everyone in our society
should be on the same page.

00:58:55.350 --> 00:58:57.050
You shouldn't ever abuse a female.

00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.030
- [Deeyah Khan] There
are a number of reasons

00:59:00.030 --> 00:59:03.783
why women may be unable to
leave abusive relationships.

00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:10.470
- Managing childcare, managing
finances, stable housing,

00:59:10.470 --> 00:59:13.830
mental health effects,
physical health effects,

00:59:13.830 --> 00:59:16.323
the system not holding him accountable,

00:59:17.550 --> 00:59:20.310
the community not providing the resources

00:59:20.310 --> 00:59:22.950
the survivor needs to
recover for themselves

00:59:22.950 --> 00:59:24.420
and their children.

00:59:24.420 --> 00:59:27.750
But the reason she goes back
is there's no viable way

00:59:27.750 --> 00:59:29.220
to actually leave.

00:59:29.220 --> 00:59:30.120
- Nice to meet you.

00:59:30.120 --> 00:59:32.360
- [Deeyah Khan] Take care,
thank you for coming.

00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:33.570
Many former abusers I spoke to

00:59:33.570 --> 00:59:35.970
agreed that the criminal justice system

00:59:35.970 --> 00:59:37.863
had been very lenient on them.

00:59:40.470 --> 00:59:43.470
Charles says he started
being violent to women

00:59:43.470 --> 00:59:46.980
after leaving the military
over 30 years ago.

00:59:46.980 --> 00:59:49.680
- I think I've been
arrested about seven times.

00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:51.000
But on one instance I went to jail

00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:52.950
for domestic violence twice in one day.

00:59:54.651 --> 00:59:56.700
And I went to jail, then
I went and found her

00:59:56.700 --> 00:59:58.950
and beat her up for
calling the police on me.

00:59:58.950 --> 01:00:01.983
And I went back again, all in one night.

01:00:03.660 --> 01:00:05.280
- [Deeyah Khan] So did
any of the women like,

01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:07.140
get restraining orders or
protection orders against you?

01:00:07.140 --> 01:00:09.303
- Oh, that don't mean nothing to me.

01:00:10.620 --> 01:00:12.120
Restraining order ain't
no but a piece of paper,

01:00:12.120 --> 01:00:13.710
that ain't gonna stop
me from doing nothing.

01:00:13.710 --> 01:00:15.663
It ain't over till I say it is over.

01:00:17.340 --> 01:00:19.560
- [Deeyah Khan] Like many former abusers,

01:00:19.560 --> 01:00:23.010
Charles says he was violent
because he developed the view

01:00:23.010 --> 01:00:25.543
that men should be in charge of women.

01:00:25.543 --> 01:00:28.200
- I never considered myself
a woman beater per se,

01:00:28.200 --> 01:00:32.010
because I didn't just
hit women for nothing,

01:00:32.010 --> 01:00:34.170
I figured if I had a reason,

01:00:34.170 --> 01:00:36.720
then it was just not being a
woman beater, it was justified,

01:00:36.720 --> 01:00:38.858
it was corrective actions,

01:00:38.858 --> 01:00:40.608
just trying to get some compliance.

01:00:48.990 --> 01:00:52.140
- [Deeyah Khan] How many
women did you do this to?

01:00:52.140 --> 01:00:54.813
- I don't know, maybe a dozen or so.

01:00:59.940 --> 01:01:02.290
- [Deeyah Khan] What's
making you feel so much?

01:01:03.525 --> 01:01:06.270
- I don't know, just the whole

01:01:06.270 --> 01:01:10.743
situation of people lives who
are affected and all that.

01:01:13.470 --> 01:01:15.930
That's not who I really am, you know?

01:01:15.930 --> 01:01:19.290
And that was way my,

01:01:19.290 --> 01:01:21.740
I was programmed at that
point in time in my life

01:01:22.860 --> 01:01:27.860
and that I wish I could
change all that, but I can't.

01:01:28.497 --> 01:01:31.923
But that's not the way women
should be treated, you know?

01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:50.670
- [Deeyah Khan] If you could talk to them,

01:01:50.670 --> 01:01:52.887
what would you try to tell them?

01:01:52.887 --> 01:01:55.680
- And if anybody shows
signs of that in the future,

01:01:55.680 --> 01:01:59.970
leave them immediately
that you got to go and go.

01:01:59.970 --> 01:02:01.500
Because they might not be no another time

01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:03.400
to call the police, you might be dead.

01:02:20.222 --> 01:02:21.570
- [Deeyah Khan] This is Amir.

01:02:21.570 --> 01:02:24.210
He says before he stopped his violence,

01:02:24.210 --> 01:02:26.940
he had absorbed the
same message as Charles,

01:02:26.940 --> 01:02:29.760
that men are superior
and should instill fear

01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:31.410
in their partner.

01:02:31.410 --> 01:02:33.990
Why did you used to think
that it was important

01:02:33.990 --> 01:02:35.313
for a woman to fear you?

01:02:36.210 --> 01:02:38.760
- Because that's what I
thought a man was supposed to,

01:02:38.760 --> 01:02:40.470
that's what, that's how a man

01:02:40.470 --> 01:02:43.063
supposed to behave in a relationship.

01:02:43.063 --> 01:02:45.720
I think it's a sense of
having some kind of power.

01:02:45.720 --> 01:02:48.903
You have no power anywhere
else in your life.

01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:52.833
And then I guess when
opportunity presents that you,

01:02:53.670 --> 01:02:57.030
you can display a little bit of power.

01:02:57.030 --> 01:03:01.683
And I guess that's what I did
and it went too far, you know?

01:03:03.090 --> 01:03:06.330
But it is rough to feel
like you have no control,

01:03:06.330 --> 01:03:08.883
you have no say so over
your life whatsoever.

01:03:11.940 --> 01:03:13.050
- [Deeyah Khan] Other than with her?

01:03:13.050 --> 01:03:14.580
- Other than what's her.

01:03:14.580 --> 01:03:16.770
That's terrible to say, ain't it?

01:03:16.770 --> 01:03:19.410
Being taught a man is supposed to

01:03:19.410 --> 01:03:22.620
hide his emotions, not cry.

01:03:22.620 --> 01:03:24.630
If you cry or show any
emotions, then you've,

01:03:24.630 --> 01:03:27.390
then you're effeminate, you know,

01:03:27.390 --> 01:03:28.800
it's kind of sad to look at it right now,

01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:30.420
but I guess that was
the only comfortable way

01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:31.893
I had to express myself.

01:03:33.330 --> 01:03:36.930
When it comes down to it, our
problem is not with our wives

01:03:36.930 --> 01:03:39.570
or anybody we want to
display violence with.

01:03:39.570 --> 01:03:41.403
It starts within ourselves.

01:03:45.660 --> 01:03:48.330
- What does it mean to be
a man in today's world?

01:03:48.330 --> 01:03:50.610
It's a question we're
asking our guests this week,

01:03:50.610 --> 01:03:53.220
and their answers might surprise you.

01:03:53.220 --> 01:03:55.620
- [Deeyah Khan] Dr.
Jackson Katz is an educator

01:03:55.620 --> 01:03:58.230
and activist against male violence.

01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:00.960
- For decades, author and
educator, Jackson Katz

01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:03.570
has called on men to set
the tone and speak out.

01:04:03.570 --> 01:04:04.403
Good morning.

01:04:04.403 --> 01:04:05.674
- Good morning.

01:04:05.674 --> 01:04:07.260
- [Deeyah Khan] He's
devised a number of programs

01:04:07.260 --> 01:04:10.470
used by the US military,
corporations and major

01:04:10.470 --> 01:04:14.296
sports organizations tackling
the society-wide problem

01:04:14.296 --> 01:04:16.350
of male violence.

01:04:16.350 --> 01:04:17.640
- It's important that I say,

01:04:17.640 --> 01:04:20.580
and that men say when we
do the work that we do,

01:04:20.580 --> 01:04:22.770
and especially in the field
of gender violence prevention

01:04:22.770 --> 01:04:24.480
that I'm gonna talk with
you about this morning,

01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:26.010
I don't see these as women's issues

01:04:26.010 --> 01:04:27.840
that some good men help out with.

01:04:27.840 --> 01:04:30.270
In fact, I'm gonna argue
that these are men's issues.

01:04:30.270 --> 01:04:31.468
First and foremost.

01:04:31.468 --> 01:04:32.580
- [Deeyah Khan] Hi.

01:04:32.580 --> 01:04:33.413
- Hi.

01:04:33.413 --> 01:04:34.246
- [Deeyah Khan] How are you?

01:04:34.246 --> 01:04:35.079
- Come on in.

01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:35.950
Welcome.

01:04:35.950 --> 01:04:36.783
- [Deeyah Khan] All right, thank you.

01:04:36.783 --> 01:04:37.783
- All right.

01:04:39.600 --> 01:04:41.670
So I think there's a tendency
on the part of a lot of people

01:04:41.670 --> 01:04:45.480
to think about these individuals
who commit these, you know,

01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:48.570
murders or these heinous acts as monsters.

01:04:48.570 --> 01:04:50.370
And that way we don't
have to be introspective.

01:04:50.370 --> 01:04:52.481
We don't have to think
about the ways in which

01:04:52.481 --> 01:04:53.910
our attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

01:04:53.910 --> 01:04:57.150
contribute to a culture that
produces abusive behavior.

01:04:57.150 --> 01:04:59.430
Because if abusive behavior
is just the product

01:04:59.430 --> 01:05:03.150
of some crazy individual or
some pathological individual

01:05:03.150 --> 01:05:07.050
or some monster, then there's
not much we can do about it.

01:05:07.050 --> 01:05:09.924
So the question is, how do
we give men and young men

01:05:09.924 --> 01:05:14.820
ways of being men that don't
involve having to be dominant

01:05:14.820 --> 01:05:18.300
over women, but that give
them a sense of satisfaction.

01:05:18.300 --> 01:05:20.280
I think we're kidding
ourselves if we don't,

01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:22.826
if we think we're gonna
solve these problems

01:05:22.826 --> 01:05:26.280
without trying to understand
the complex mix of, you know,

01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:30.823
shame, trauma, dependence,
sometimes childhood issues,

01:05:30.823 --> 01:05:35.790
and the cultural overlay of
entitlement and men's, you know,

01:05:35.790 --> 01:05:38.670
men's entitlement to
women's emotional support.

01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:40.860
Because we have to challenge the idea

01:05:40.860 --> 01:05:43.380
that these men are
leaning on this old notion

01:05:43.380 --> 01:05:44.977
that I'm supposed to be in charge.

01:05:44.977 --> 01:05:47.010
"Damn it, I'm a man and she's not a man,

01:05:47.010 --> 01:05:48.990
she can't play football
like me, and I'm, you know,

01:05:48.990 --> 01:05:50.760
I get bigger muscles and
I'm stronger than her,

01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:52.740
I can dominate her if I want to",

01:05:52.740 --> 01:05:54.510
because that's a belief system.

01:05:54.510 --> 01:05:57.000
That's not enshrined in
sort of human nature,

01:05:57.000 --> 01:05:58.830
it's not genetic or something.

01:05:58.830 --> 01:06:01.680
We have to teach boys and
men that there are ways

01:06:01.680 --> 01:06:05.130
to respond to these
complex human emotions,

01:06:05.130 --> 01:06:07.380
including vulnerable
emotions like disappointment,

01:06:07.380 --> 01:06:10.320
grief, sadness, humiliation,

01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:13.110
that don't involve the traditional go-to

01:06:13.110 --> 01:06:14.610
which is violence, you know?

01:06:14.610 --> 01:06:16.410
So I've been humiliated,
I'm gonna get back

01:06:16.410 --> 01:06:17.670
at that person through violence.

01:06:17.670 --> 01:06:19.620
I'm gonna reclaim what's been lost from me

01:06:19.620 --> 01:06:21.060
by taking it from somebody else.

01:06:21.060 --> 01:06:23.970
Because some of these men claim
that they love these women

01:06:23.970 --> 01:06:25.570
even while they're killing them.

01:06:27.120 --> 01:06:28.920
- [Deeyah Khan] Despite
the stigma and the shame

01:06:28.920 --> 01:06:32.430
of domestic abuse, all
the men in this film

01:06:32.430 --> 01:06:34.830
agreed to speak to me because they said

01:06:34.830 --> 01:06:36.513
they wanted to do some good.

01:06:37.890 --> 01:06:41.040
- I'd rather be talking
about something different,

01:06:41.040 --> 01:06:43.240
being interviewed about
something different.

01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:48.303
But if what I've experienced,

01:06:49.140 --> 01:06:52.590
if that can be helpful to
people, I think that's great.

01:06:52.590 --> 01:06:54.060
- [Deeyah Khan] Everyone I met

01:06:54.060 --> 01:06:56.760
said the process of
talking with other abusers

01:06:56.760 --> 01:06:59.279
had helped them confront
their own actions.

01:06:59.279 --> 01:07:00.617
- [Person Off-Camera] I mean
really nobody should have,

01:07:00.617 --> 01:07:01.547
nobody's teaching not to do that.

01:07:01.547 --> 01:07:03.540
- First, it's accountability.

01:07:03.540 --> 01:07:06.660
you know, I have to accept
that I had done these things.

01:07:06.660 --> 01:07:09.810
What was it that was
making me be this way?

01:07:09.810 --> 01:07:12.930
If you see physical violence
in your life at a young age,

01:07:12.930 --> 01:07:15.420
you're more likely to use the
physical violence later on.

01:07:15.420 --> 01:07:17.850
And they don't teach you that in school.

01:07:17.850 --> 01:07:19.950
You know, they don't teach you that stuff.

01:07:21.330 --> 01:07:22.530
Which maybe they should.

01:07:27.570 --> 01:07:30.260
- [Deeyah Khan] Nothing
can justify the violence

01:07:30.260 --> 01:07:33.720
of the men I met or diminish
the damage their violence

01:07:33.720 --> 01:07:35.013
has caused to women.

01:07:36.150 --> 01:07:40.020
But I did find that talking
to them can help us understand

01:07:40.020 --> 01:07:43.710
why they did it and what
we as a society can do

01:07:43.710 --> 01:07:44.943
to help stop it.

01:07:46.140 --> 01:07:49.423
Time and again, I heard the same thing,

01:07:49.423 --> 01:07:53.081
we need to change the
way we think about women

01:07:53.081 --> 01:07:56.433
and the way we think about men.

01:07:57.900 --> 01:08:02.900
- The expectations that our
culture puts on men are cruel.

01:08:04.110 --> 01:08:08.370
We objectify women, we also objectify men.

01:08:08.370 --> 01:08:12.570
And for men to feel like
they're not measuring up

01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:16.320
to being manly enough

01:08:16.320 --> 01:08:20.550
is a big deal in domestic violence.

01:08:20.550 --> 01:08:24.210
- I wasn't born violent,
I wasn't born angry.

01:08:24.210 --> 01:08:26.142
I wasn't born with hate in me.

01:08:26.142 --> 01:08:27.960
It had to be taught from somewhere.

01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:30.150
It just keeps going on
generation to generation,

01:08:30.150 --> 01:08:31.150
if we don't stop it.

01:08:32.970 --> 01:08:35.970
- In high school, in families,

01:08:35.970 --> 01:08:40.860
we don't talk about how should
you be with a girlfriend?

01:08:40.860 --> 01:08:42.783
How should you treat your wife?

01:08:43.830 --> 01:08:47.400
Somehow the world, the country,

01:08:47.400 --> 01:08:51.450
the individuals in particular
need to figure out,

01:08:51.450 --> 01:08:52.653
how do we fix this?

01:08:53.820 --> 01:08:54.843
How do we end it?

01:08:56.190 --> 01:08:59.697
- This saying that you
not a real man if you cry

01:08:59.697 --> 01:09:03.503
or you not a real man if you
don't show your emotions.

01:09:03.503 --> 01:09:06.339
Those are lies,

01:09:06.339 --> 01:09:07.380
those are lies.

01:09:07.380 --> 01:09:09.360
And I was taught the same thing,

01:09:09.360 --> 01:09:11.700
because real men don't hurt women.

01:09:11.700 --> 01:09:13.200
Real men don't hurt their kids.

01:09:13.200 --> 01:09:15.870
Real men help their kids,

01:09:15.870 --> 01:09:17.580
and they help understand their kids,

01:09:17.580 --> 01:09:18.690
and they hug their kids,

01:09:18.690 --> 01:09:20.940
and they tell their kids
that they love them.

01:09:22.080 --> 01:09:26.313
If you are hurting who you say
that you love, go get help.

01:09:28.530 --> 01:09:29.620
Tell somebody

01:09:30.810 --> 01:09:31.893
that you need help.

01:09:33.551 --> 01:09:36.468
(soft music plays)