00:30.840 --> 00:32.860
I believe some people are ghosts.

00:33.310 --> 00:37.509
I believe some people are angels.
I believe some people go to some type of

00:37.509 --> 00:41.200
hellish state and maybe even come back and
haunt people in a bad way.

00:42.659 --> 00:46.250
I think for some people there's nothing and for
others, there's heaven.

00:47.189 --> 00:51.279
I think there's this big wide range of things
when it comes to death.

00:54.479 --> 00:57.240
I became a monster that night to do what I did.

00:58.349 --> 00:59.569
I don't even know how I did.

01:00.349 --> 01:03.659
I look back on it now, it's like I've placed it
over to the side of me.

01:04.528 --> 01:08.558
It's no longer in me now.
It's over here, and I'm on the outside looking

01:08.558 --> 01:12.489
at it.
Like I didn't even do it, although I know I did.

02:09.720 --> 02:14.720
I liked being high.
When I got high, I was able to be whatever I

02:14.720 --> 02:19.050
wanted to be on the right drugs, and I got
through life that way.

02:19.119 --> 02:23.559
My whole life was about using drugs: Quaaludes,
speed, pot,

02:23.679 --> 02:29.470
cocaine, um, Valium, Xanax, any kind of pills
like that.

02:30.750 --> 02:33.850
By the time I was like 13 or 14, I was selling pot
at school.

02:34.300 --> 02:36.610
I liked the assignment from it.
I liked making money.

02:36.660 --> 02:39.729
I liked it on cocaine, which was my drug of
choice.

02:40.809 --> 02:45.000
I was able to draw awesome pictures then.

02:45.809 --> 02:50.350
I'd used too much of it, so I had to take
downers, and I became addicted to a lot of

02:50.350 --> 02:56.869
drugs.
I was born and raised in Las Vegas.

02:57.800 --> 03:02.889
And my family was pretty good to start with, and
then my mom and dad got divorced and they kind

03:02.889 --> 03:04.199
of went back and forth.

03:05.320 --> 03:10.190
Yeah, my mom took me away when I was 7 to Texas,
away from my dad and my brother and my

03:10.190 --> 03:11.389
grandmother, and I hated it.

03:12.820 --> 03:16.929
I was using drugs by 8 or 9 years old.
I was stealing my mom's Valiums.

03:17.800 --> 03:23.320
Um, they're like happy pills.
I felt neglected by her, and as a kid it was

03:23.320 --> 03:27.000
really hard because she was either sleeping or
gone, and she didn't want me,

03:27.009 --> 03:31.250
I guess.
She dropped me off at the airport and I found

03:31.250 --> 03:34.570
my way and got on a plane and went back to
Vegas.

03:40.399 --> 03:44.470
I had nightmares about being murdered from the
time I was 7 years old on.

03:46.699 --> 03:48.029
I was running.

03:48.330 --> 03:53.009
It was dark.
It was desert and there's a gas station and a

03:53.009 --> 03:59.210
guy was chasing me with a big knife, and I'd go
up the steps and there's boxes everywhere, and I

03:59.210 --> 04:01.880
fell over the boxes, and he stabbed me to death.

04:04.229 --> 04:07.729
I was given my own gun when I was 16
years old.

04:08.220 --> 04:12.380
I never had to use it, but I knew how to and I
wasn't afraid to.

04:15.399 --> 04:17.950
I got pregnant when I was 21 with Natasha.

04:18.649 --> 04:22.380
And I was working at the Golden Nugget and I
was doing pretty good with my life at that time.

04:22.380 --> 04:24.309
And I didn't use drugs when I was pregnant.

04:25.109 --> 04:30.029
When she was born it was just a joy; she had a
little bit of red hair. I took care of her and I

04:30.029 --> 04:37.019
went back to work and after about a year I
started using drugs again and

04:37.350 --> 04:42.070
I got pregnant again and I had Nicholas, so I
got really lucky with both my children that

04:42.070 --> 04:44.070
they're healthy and happy.

04:44.769 --> 04:47.820
You know, that's one good thing that I did.

04:49.140 --> 04:51.329
And then I was 28.

04:52.450 --> 04:54.040
I was living with this guy.

04:54.290 --> 04:55.410
We had an auto body shop.

04:55.769 --> 04:56.959
I got in a fight with him.

04:57.829 --> 05:02.350
I felt neglected again, so I left him and went
to Richard's trailer.

05:03.609 --> 05:04.910
He sold drugs.

05:05.679 --> 05:09.570
The trailer was very small and I was only
going to stay there a couple of weeks and

05:09.570 --> 05:12.559
that's when the crime took place, it was at the
trailer.

05:13.820 --> 05:18.269
We had this problem arise where a friend of
mine named Scott

05:20.220 --> 05:26.869
thought we had stolen his guns, but we hadn't
stolen anybody's guns and he kept calling up

05:26.869 --> 05:32.200
and saying that we'd taken the guns and he was
gonna get us. I was very scared and I really

05:32.200 --> 05:38.790
thought something was going to happen but
nobody believed me. Then one night

05:39.320 --> 05:43.399
about 3 or 4 in the morning I heard Richard
screaming, "Marnie,

05:43.480 --> 05:45.559
help me, help me," and I grabbed the shotgun.

05:46.660 --> 05:49.570
And I remember being in this little
hallway.

05:50.260 --> 05:55.609
And there was Scott and I pointed the gun at
him, and he kept saying he was going to kill me.

05:55.739 --> 05:59.450
He said, "I'm gonna kill you, bitch."
He kept walking towards me and he got so close

05:59.450 --> 06:03.049
to the gun that I pulled the trigger and I shot
him in the arm,

06:03.089 --> 06:07.089
but I didn't know where I'd shot him.
All I knew is he had fallen down and I thought

06:07.089 --> 06:09.250
it was all over then, but.

06:10.679 --> 06:17.119
To the side of me, in the bathtub with this
shower thing was Richard and another guy, and

06:17.119 --> 06:21.320
there was a gun at Richard's head and they were
going back and forth with the gun. I pointed

06:21.320 --> 06:27.679
the shotgun at him and I pulled the trigger and
then he was down. The next thing I know

06:27.679 --> 06:33.089
Scott's right up here coming after me and
Richard got out and got in between me and Scott

06:33.089 --> 06:37.920
and shot Scott a few more times, and by that
time.

06:38.250 --> 06:43.220
The guy in the bathtub, Jimmy, he had me up in
the back of the trailer,

06:43.299 --> 06:49.950
and I remember grabbing a stick and hitting him
as hard as I could, and to the side of me there

06:49.950 --> 06:54.709
was an assault rifle right on the wall, and I
threw it to Richard because he was already out

06:54.709 --> 06:58.540
of bullets with the .38, and he shot him, and that
was.

06:59.850 --> 07:03.200
That was the last gunshot, and I remember it
sounding like a jet.

07:03.209 --> 07:08.660
It was very loud.
I remember my fear turning into a rage,

07:09.029 --> 07:14.190
and I knew that they were gonna kill us.
I just knew this, and the whole time I just knew

07:14.190 --> 07:17.109
they had guns on them, although they never did
have a gun.

07:19.040 --> 07:20.579
I duct taped Jimmy.

07:20.829 --> 07:21.829
I duct taped him up.

07:22.670 --> 07:24.279
'Cause I didn't want to talk anymore.

07:26.480 --> 07:31.059
And by that time Scott was laying on the ground
of the trailer in the hallway.

07:32.839 --> 07:36.329
And I taped him up too because he said, Marnie,
help me.

07:37.790 --> 07:41.059
I couldn't stand listening to him.
I taped him up with the duct tape around his

07:41.059 --> 07:43.470
throat all the way up over his nose.

07:44.410 --> 07:50.140
And even after they were dead, I still thought
they were alive, and I was hearing things

07:50.140 --> 07:52.239
because I'd been up for five days on drugs.

07:52.720 --> 07:57.260
I was on a lot of cocaine, and I'd taken
Restoril, I'd been smoking pot, I'd been

07:57.260 --> 08:02.329
drinking.
Um, and I was still hearing them say things as

08:02.329 --> 08:07.609
they lay there dead, and I remember looking in
the mirror, and I was covered in blood, and I

08:07.609 --> 08:10.279
felt like the devil was in me.
It wasn't me,

08:10.489 --> 08:16.880
but it was me.
Now I, I really believe that I got this like a

08:16.880 --> 08:20.450
euphoric adrenaline type of thing going because
I had to.

08:21.119 --> 08:24.929
You know, get these things done, you know,
because we couldn't let anybody know that these

08:24.929 --> 08:26.519
two guys had been killed.

08:27.010 --> 08:31.329
We had to cover it up, and I cleaned, and I, I
did everything inside, and,

08:31.600 --> 08:33.599
and you could still smell death in there.

08:34.859 --> 08:41.859
Finally, Cameron was brought into the picture,
and we took both trucks out to Lake Mead, and we

08:41.859 --> 08:45.830
found a spot.
I told them I said I'm not digging that, I was

08:45.830 --> 08:46.859
so tired.

08:47.229 --> 08:53.590
I was drinking Jack Daniel's, and I remember
going up on this hill and being the

08:53.590 --> 09:00.479
lookout while they dug the graves, and they put
the bodies in there, and we covered it up with

09:00.479 --> 09:07.390
rocks, and we brushed away all the footprints,
and then when we got home we realized that they

09:07.390 --> 09:08.739
were in a flood area.

09:09.390 --> 09:12.409
And that if there's a flood, it would uncover
the body,

09:12.580 --> 09:15.419
So we made two bombs.

09:16.320 --> 09:21.840
And Cameron and Richard went back out and blew
up part of the mountain ridge over

09:22.780 --> 09:27.840
the area where they were buried, but they put
the wrong bombs in the wrong holes,

09:28.250 --> 09:30.619
so it didn't really cover up the gravesite too
well.

09:32.059 --> 09:35.530
Scott's girlfriend was telling me everything
that was going on with the detectives.

09:36.349 --> 09:42.030
She would cry and tell me Jimmy had four children
and Scott had a granddaughter on the way,

09:42.159 --> 09:43.840
but it didn't really dawn on me.

09:46.080 --> 09:51.190
I start thinking about Scott and Jimmy being
dead in the desert and nobody even knew they

09:51.190 --> 09:57.099
were there and it was horrible, and the guilt
was just because I related it to myself, to my

09:57.099 --> 09:59.909
own children.
What if my own kids grew up and somebody did

09:59.909 --> 10:02.219
that to them, and it was just I couldn't deal
with it.

10:03.099 --> 10:07.510
And that's when I got suicidal, very suicidal,
and then I couldn't even kill myself,

10:07.549 --> 10:13.429
right.
Someone tipped off the police and I know who it

10:13.429 --> 10:16.950
was.
I was the one that told this man, and so in

10:16.950 --> 10:19.469
essence, my own mouth kind of hung all of us.

10:22.880 --> 10:28.039
I got two life sentences for each of the murders and then two
life sentences for weapons charges in Nevada,

10:28.159 --> 10:32.989
they give you a consecutive sentence to weapons
charges, but they're all running mine

10:32.989 --> 10:35.200
wild.
All of them are back to back.

10:37.950 --> 10:41.260
The reality is that I'll probably die in prison
because of my sentence.

10:42.940 --> 10:44.250
And I've accepted that.

10:45.020 --> 10:46.349
I'm sober today.

10:46.880 --> 10:49.919
That's a real good thing for me, 'cause I was
never able to do that.

10:51.380 --> 10:53.440
I've wasted my whole life on drugs.

10:53.650 --> 10:54.919
It really wasn't fun.

10:55.489 --> 10:58.440
I thought it was at the time, but now I look
back and it sucked.

10:58.770 --> 11:00.520
I can't believe I would live like that.

11:03.729 --> 11:05.909
Hey Lisa, how are you doing?
Good, how are you?

11:06.080 --> 11:07.440
Hanging in there.
What you doing?

11:08.280 --> 11:09.909
Be the movie star, right on.

11:43.590 --> 11:48.630
People want you to choose which side you're
gonna be on like, am I gonna be Hispanic or

11:48.630 --> 11:49.700
am I gonna be black?

11:50.570 --> 11:57.460
Well, that's like an unspoken thing. At the same time, it's like, okay, if I choose to
be black, they don't really like me, like black

11:57.460 --> 12:02.140
women don't like me. You know, my hair is
straight or, you know, it's long, or my skin is

12:02.140 --> 12:07.580
like, they don't like me. I'm high yellow, I think
I'm too good, or Hispanics, you know, they don't

12:07.580 --> 12:13.340
really, you know, get into any of that, but I'm.

12:13.340 --> 12:18.179
I'm not Hispanic, you know, my dad is black, and
I'm considered black by them automatically.

12:18.599 --> 12:21.909
So there's like, I don't know, I don't feel
like I really fit there.

12:23.039 --> 12:28.599
Um, anymore.
I'm just like, okay, fine, I'm half black and I'm

12:28.599 --> 12:33.390
half Spanish, and I listen to Spanish music, and
I can probably even talk a little bit, and

12:34.609 --> 12:37.840
and when I get mad, you can tell I'm black, and
so you know,

12:37.929 --> 12:39.390
hey, this is just the mix.

12:41.580 --> 12:44.090
My mom was working in the streets and pregnant
with me.

12:45.440 --> 12:48.210
I'm the only one that's not, um, illegitimate.

12:48.700 --> 12:50.820
My dad, I guess, he seen me when I was like six
months old,

12:50.859 --> 12:55.369
my mom ran off.
My mom was a baby having babies.

12:56.239 --> 12:57.760
She wanted the party life.

13:00.010 --> 13:04.400
The most nurturing I received was from my
stepfather, but he was also the abuser.

13:05.250 --> 13:10.429
I was so starved for attention that, you know,
I thought that I wouldn't get any if

13:11.159 --> 13:13.070
I like spoke up or anything.

13:13.309 --> 13:16.510
I witnessed him molesting my younger sister and

13:17.340 --> 13:20.299
It was like, how dare you do that to me and her,
you know,

13:20.409 --> 13:23.669
I thought I, I guess I thought I was special.
I don't know.

13:26.289 --> 13:32.700
We moved to the east side of Salt Lake City, and
I got in with my gang, and I was important.

13:32.809 --> 13:35.260
If a female got smart with one of my homeboys,
they was like,

13:35.270 --> 13:38.510
go get Venus and check her, you know, um.

13:39.640 --> 13:42.989
We were respected, so far as that kind of
respect goes.

13:43.119 --> 13:44.869
It's not respect, it's fear.

13:46.960 --> 13:49.219
And I didn't have boyfriends.

13:51.030 --> 13:54.909
I thought it was because I was ugly, but come
to find out later on in life,

13:54.989 --> 13:57.440
it's like, hey, no guy wants no girl who can
beat them up,

13:57.549 --> 13:59.349
you know, that would be embarrassing for them.

14:00.280 --> 14:05.229
So I go to the malls and boost clothes.
That's how I have clothes.

14:06.140 --> 14:11.049
I supported myself through burglaries, car
thefts.

14:11.059 --> 14:13.000
I have an extensive juvenile record.

14:13.219 --> 14:16.729
When I look back, it's like, whoa, I was a
total different person.

14:17.580 --> 14:20.869
I was violent.
That was, I think anger was my addiction.

14:21.140 --> 14:23.840
People talk about, oh, I'll beat you up.
I'll kick your ass.

14:23.940 --> 14:28.340
What I've come to learn is the condition of the
heart, how angry you are inside is what makes

14:28.340 --> 14:34.669
you a good fighter.
As angry as I was back then and my whole life

14:35.039 --> 14:40.419
um.
And as hurt as I was as a kid, um, I never got

14:40.419 --> 14:44.309
I was beat up.
I was like invincible; nobody could defeat me.

14:44.309 --> 14:48.010
And that was, that was a high.

14:49.770 --> 14:51.570
I got locked up for armed robbery.

14:53.030 --> 14:56.750
When I got out, they said that I had to
disassociate from my gang.

14:56.789 --> 14:58.580
I had to cut all ties.

14:58.789 --> 15:02.419
So one night I went to a party on neutral
territory, and different gangs were there.

15:02.429 --> 15:05.229
It was just a birthday party for some 16-year
old kid.

15:07.059 --> 15:10.010
They jumped.
The enemies, they just stood there like,

15:10.020 --> 15:12.369
oh, you ain't got your backup; the chosen few ain't
here.

15:12.380 --> 15:15.219
You, you know, you're on your own and uh.

15:15.940 --> 15:18.130
I went outside.
I had about three or four girls tell me,

15:18.169 --> 15:23.520
me and you one on one, me and you one on one.
And I fought one girl, and after I fought her,

15:23.530 --> 15:25.659
I was like, well, next, who's next?

15:26.409 --> 15:30.559
They were jumping in and jumping out, so I
never knew if I was fighting one at a time or

15:30.559 --> 15:32.960
more at a time, and then I was just like, okay,
I've had enough.

15:33.900 --> 15:36.460
This is not one on one.
You won, whatever.

15:36.500 --> 15:38.070
I'm leaving.
I don't want no more.

15:38.380 --> 15:43.979
I remember being handed a knife and being told
to go with what I had, and the next thing I know

15:43.979 --> 15:47.969
I'm like half a block down, in the middle of
an intersection, and I have a knife.

15:48.260 --> 15:52.700
None of the knives, none of the knife wounds
were like stabbings.

15:52.900 --> 15:57.789
They were thrown with punches, so she was
being cut as I was punching.

15:58.140 --> 16:00.500
She was so intoxicated that she never felt it.

16:00.750 --> 16:04.500
And so she just kept on fighting.
I never intended to commit murder.

16:05.130 --> 16:07.130
It didn't occur to me that a knife could kill.

16:07.989 --> 16:11.270
So part of me was like, what does it feel
like to stab somebody?

16:11.760 --> 16:13.150
You know, even though

16:15.200 --> 16:19.780
I didn't think I was going to, you know, I was curious
to what that felt like.

16:19.880 --> 16:23.419
It doesn't feel like anything, and it doesn't
reap anything great either.

16:23.799 --> 16:26.960
But at the same time, I thought, God, they're
jumping me; if I stab her, she'll stop.

16:26.960 --> 16:31.200
I think if I get stabbed, I'll stop, but I can't
change that I took the girl's life, that I took,

16:31.200 --> 16:34.349
you know,

16:34.840 --> 16:40.080
if I had it all to go back and do again,
the only thing that I would change is that she

16:40.080 --> 16:44.130
died.
I wouldn't give up anything I've learned

16:44.669 --> 16:49.820
behind that incident because without that
incident I wouldn't be who I am today, and while

16:49.820 --> 16:54.619
Most people, especially my victim's family,
think I'm nothing and that I should never get

16:54.619 --> 16:59.210
out of prison, and that I'm nobody, and that I'm
not important and I serve no purpose,

16:59.500 --> 17:02.140
but I'm very significant, um.

17:04.359 --> 17:06.418
And even if I'm still in prison,

17:07.609 --> 17:10.959
I have a sense of self.
I have something that they don't even have, and

17:10.959 --> 17:13.000
they're free, and they think they're better than
me.

17:13.780 --> 17:18.709
And that the only thing I would change
was that she died.

17:19.640 --> 17:25.030
Um, I wouldn't want to kill nobody on purpose.

17:25.280 --> 17:27.680
I know how fragile human life is.

17:30.459 --> 17:31.920
I don't think I realized

17:32.709 --> 17:35.989
how to take a life until I gave life, um.

17:37.319 --> 17:39.880
Having my son was

17:40.500 --> 17:42.719
I couldn't believe when he came out he was
human.

17:43.449 --> 17:46.989
I tripped off of him, and that's a sensitive
subject.

17:47.199 --> 17:48.869
I had a baby while I was in prison.

17:49.819 --> 17:52.849
This is KSL Television Channel 5.

17:54.060 --> 17:59.119
I was in Fillmore County jail, and there was a
lot of things that were going on.

17:59.959 --> 18:05.550
In exchange for my silence, I was allowed to be
with my baby's father.

18:06.280 --> 18:09.369
The hardest thing I ever had to do was give up
my son at the hospital.

18:09.619 --> 18:12.050
So you were with the baby for how long before
you gave him up?

18:12.780 --> 18:15.530
One and a half to two days, I can't remember,
probably two days.

18:15.699 --> 18:18.209
How old is that baby now?
Seventeen months.

18:20.339 --> 18:25.040
And more than anything, I thought when I was
growing up, if I could just have a baby,

18:25.050 --> 18:29.010
everything in my life would be perfect. You know,
I would just go get on welfare and have my own

18:29.010 --> 18:31.489
house, nobody could tell me what to do, but
that never happened.

18:32.459 --> 18:37.750
It's people like me— from drugs and prostitution
and gangs,

18:37.890 --> 18:42.510
people from my side of the tracks who become
dependent upon this place.

18:44.670 --> 18:51.500
Who don't have a problem getting three hots and a
cot, who don't mind being issued clothing and

18:51.500 --> 18:52.849
having people take care of them.

18:53.760 --> 18:55.650
They have no aspirations.

18:56.040 --> 18:58.630
They live for yard call.

18:59.079 --> 19:02.719
They, um, do anything to escape their own
realities, you know,

19:03.000 --> 19:04.599
everybody knows there's drugs in prison.

19:05.560 --> 19:08.500
And that is like the main attraction.

19:09.329 --> 19:10.699
And I think that's sad.

19:12.329 --> 19:18.349
You can't have an intelligent conversation
with people in prison because

19:19.250 --> 19:21.959
they'd rather be socked in the face than deal
with the soft pain.

19:26.160 --> 19:28.829
There's nothing inside of me that would commit
another crime.

19:29.160 --> 19:35.859
Nothing. Before I came to this
prison,

19:35.859 --> 19:39.290
prison, I was in the Utah State Prison and I
was on the maximum unit.

19:39.500 --> 19:42.290
My attorney walks into the prison.
He's private now.

19:42.449 --> 19:47.219
He's a big dog.
And he's like, I can't believe you're not out.

19:47.270 --> 19:49.469
You don't got a date.
And I'm like, man, what part don't you

19:49.469 --> 19:50.660
understand?
I got life.

19:51.229 --> 19:55.469
He said, well, maybe she had a plea bargain in
the bag.

19:56.369 --> 19:57.800
And I'm like, what?

19:58.089 --> 19:59.680
He told me I had no plea bargain.

20:00.709 --> 20:04.439
He's like, yeah, we had a manslaughter in the
bag which held 0 to 5 years,

20:04.650 --> 20:07.599
he said, I said why didn't we take it right
there in front of his new client,

20:07.609 --> 20:10.369
he says, oh, because we rolled the dice and
lost.

20:11.229 --> 20:15.060
And I walked out of that classroom and I never
said another word to him.

20:16.229 --> 20:19.390
I'm gonna finish this time and I'm gonna get
out.

20:20.810 --> 20:22.469
This is the part where I'm angry.

20:22.810 --> 20:24.119
This is the part where

20:25.250 --> 20:27.040
um, I hate the system.

20:29.380 --> 20:30.880
They took my whole life.

20:39.339 --> 20:43.569
Between the ages, um, between the ages of 12
and 15.

20:45.099 --> 20:46.510
I cried woeful la.

20:47.589 --> 20:54.239
Um, I was in and out of the detention home 32
times, 52 count different

20:54.239 --> 20:57.260
bookings.
I have, I have a long rap sheet.

20:57.880 --> 21:03.170
I was delinquent beyond anything the juvenile
system had to offer me.

21:04.579 --> 21:06.089
I lost 2 pills.

21:07.550 --> 21:09.560
They didn't properly instruct the jury.

21:09.930 --> 21:13.130
My case is not right and I should have never
did all this time.

21:15.810 --> 21:18.979
But deep inside myself, I think for as hard as
I was,

21:19.310 --> 21:20.670
it was necessary.

21:22.010 --> 21:23.489
As much as it hurts.

21:25.329 --> 21:29.680
As much as it took away from me, I think it was
necessary because that was hard.

21:30.800 --> 21:34.239
And nobody cared about me, so I didn't care
about nobody.

22:11.060 --> 22:16.439
When I was a child, I used to pray to God to
let me die.

22:17.550 --> 22:19.910
Every morning I wake up.

22:24.430 --> 22:30.079
And it was a disappointment that I was still
there.

22:31.209 --> 22:32.619
Maybe I wasn't meant to be.

22:33.369 --> 22:35.229
All I've ever wanted to be is normal.

22:38.650 --> 22:41.780
And I don't, I don't even know what that is.

22:43.900 --> 22:45.209
That's the sad part.

22:50.780 --> 22:57.500
My father was in the military, and I never had a
solid relationship because we

22:57.500 --> 22:58.829
moved so much.

22:59.459 --> 23:05.979
So there were always little cliques of friends,
and I never fit in.

23:07.099 --> 23:10.939
And 33 years later, I still don't fit in.

23:12.040 --> 23:14.270
I have a problem with bulimia.

23:14.810 --> 23:16.040
It was a way of control.

23:16.800 --> 23:18.949
I had to eat everything.

23:20.339 --> 23:23.930
Could not leave the table.
It didn't matter if it was freezing cold.

23:24.979 --> 23:26.979
Be midnight, I had to eat it.

23:28.660 --> 23:32.520
I've always kept anger inside.
I've never been able to show anger.

23:32.939 --> 23:34.770
I started cutting.

23:36.189 --> 23:37.329
And it was a comfort.

23:37.989 --> 23:39.160
The blood bubbles.

23:39.969 --> 23:46.880
And it runs, and when it bubbles, for me, that
is the hurt coming out, or

23:46.880 --> 23:52.719
the pain.
And when it runs, that is more of it going away.

23:53.010 --> 23:59.800
And when you wipe it off, it's gone, and that
keeps the anger so that

24:00.089 --> 24:01.520
I don't hurt anyone else.

24:03.800 --> 24:06.910
I met Michael, my ex-husband.

24:07.709 --> 24:09.500
He looks very similar to my father.

24:09.829 --> 24:11.859
That, I guess, was the attraction.

24:12.810 --> 24:15.760
Michael was going on trips.

24:15.969 --> 24:17.040
He was in construction.

24:17.969 --> 24:23.050
And we got along very well until we got married.

24:25.469 --> 24:26.689
And then it was

24:28.369 --> 24:29.449
downhill from there.

24:31.680 --> 24:33.459
He wanted a child very badly.

24:34.260 --> 24:38.260
And I wanted to make him happy.
I wanted to make myself happy.

24:39.030 --> 24:44.050
I wanted to have a child that loved me.

24:46.170 --> 24:50.540
My friend Erin told me that she was pregnant.

24:51.540 --> 24:53.920
And at the time, I was pregnant also.

24:56.260 --> 25:03.069
And from an argument that I had gotten in with
Michael, I got knocked into

25:03.069 --> 25:05.859
the wall and I wasn't pregnant anymore.

25:07.010 --> 25:09.250
She wanted an abortion, Erin.

25:13.260 --> 25:15.510
And I had asked her instead of

25:17.800 --> 25:19.939
killing the child to let on.

25:20.839 --> 25:22.239
Just let me adopt it and

25:24.689 --> 25:26.310
it'd be mine and Michael's.

25:28.189 --> 25:32.300
I made a deal with her that I would be pregnant
right along with her.

25:33.369 --> 25:40.369
We tried different things, and nothing looked
natural except for a small

25:40.369 --> 25:45.839
baby pillow.
The pillow was very small, like this.

25:46.589 --> 25:52.790
And each month and a half, we would add the
foam to it, and it would get bigger.

25:53.239 --> 25:56.760
And the elastic maternity pants.

25:57.530 --> 25:58.560
Held it in place.

25:59.930 --> 26:06.810
And Michael was gone three weeks out of the month,
and the only person that

26:06.810 --> 26:08.689
really ever saw me was Aaron.

26:09.839 --> 26:12.680
When she told me that she was not, um,

26:14.369 --> 26:15.969
putting the baby up for adoption.

26:19.619 --> 26:25.869
I panicked.
She had the baby in January; it was a little boy.

26:27.099 --> 26:33.979
And I came in one night and the baby was in a
bassinet on the

26:33.979 --> 26:39.380
floor, and I had thoughts of just taking what
was my

26:39.780 --> 26:40.979
my child.

26:42.229 --> 26:47.189
The Sunday before Michael had left for his trip,
he was cleaning his gun.

26:47.760 --> 26:49.109
I walked down the hallway.

26:49.869 --> 26:53.839
And she was on the telephone, and when she
turned around,

26:54.150 --> 26:57.040
she said to me that I wasn't woman enough for
my

26:58.660 --> 27:01.369
that, um, he needed a real woman.

27:04.069 --> 27:10.180
That she had what he wanted.

27:11.119 --> 27:12.680
Which was the baby.

27:14.849 --> 27:21.729
And then she went to her room and slammed

27:21.729 --> 27:27.219
the door.
And went to sleep like it was nothing.

27:31.170 --> 27:32.479
And I was going to wake her up.

27:35.599 --> 27:37.760
so that she could know.

27:39.270 --> 27:43.439
What it was to be frightened, what it was to be
afraid.

27:44.459 --> 27:50.910
What it was to wonder if you were normal.

27:52.750 --> 27:56.140
I had the gun pointed at her, and I was going to
scare her,

27:56.270 --> 27:58.619
and she got shot instead.

28:00.579 --> 28:07.010
And she died, and blood went

28:07.010 --> 28:13.969
everywhere.
And a lot of times now

28:13.969 --> 28:17.939
I see.
That's it done.

28:20.670 --> 28:22.209
The bullet hit her, uh.

28:26.449 --> 28:27.449
You know, um,

28:35.290 --> 28:36.880
And I see your face.

28:41.849 --> 28:43.189
It's like it glistens.

28:44.119 --> 28:46.689
I sat, I sat there with her for a long time.

28:48.949 --> 28:55.949
And was screaming at her to wake up.

28:59.469 --> 29:01.619
And I knew she wasn't going to.

29:05.319 --> 29:07.430
The baby was in the living room.

29:08.160 --> 29:10.489
And my mother was at my house.

29:11.339 --> 29:16.050
Early the next morning, and I was afraid to tell
my mom.

29:17.079 --> 29:21.150
I wrapped her up in the quilt that was on
the bed.

29:24.209 --> 29:26.239
And I took her home.

29:28.140 --> 29:33.489
She had bought a new truck and put her in the
back with her stuff.

29:34.099 --> 29:40.839
I hit the truck and he stopped at the gas
station, and I put him

29:40.839 --> 29:42.270
inside the bathroom.

29:42.680 --> 29:44.589
I didn't want anything to happen to him.

29:50.000 --> 29:53.619
Eight days later, I was arrested.

29:55.319 --> 29:58.619
I was charged with first-degree murder.

29:58.989 --> 30:02.150
I was convicted
in 1988.

30:02.869 --> 30:05.489
A life sentence, 25 years mandatory.

30:06.739 --> 30:10.660
And for leaving the baby at the gas station,

30:11.319 --> 30:13.699
I was given the same sentence.

30:15.079 --> 30:20.760
And I think now about the things that have
happened to me in my life.

30:21.619 --> 30:28.199
And I, I wonder if are, are people born, you
know, innately bad?

30:28.199 --> 30:35.060
Or is this what God intended?

30:35.550 --> 30:36.660
Did he know?

30:37.849 --> 30:41.739
Did they know that that was going to happen
later in my life?

30:42.010 --> 30:43.619
Was this the punishment?

30:45.250 --> 30:46.520
For not being normal.

31:26.339 --> 31:31.699
That you, for the crime of murder in the first
degree, for which you stand convicted, and within

31:31.699 --> 31:37.050
the walls of the permanent death chamber, you
shall be, by the proper execution officer of the

31:37.050 --> 31:41.329
state prison of the state of Florida,
electrocuted until you are dead.

31:42.459 --> 31:44.500
And may God have mercy on your soul.

31:51.410 --> 31:54.489
I love my mother very much.
There was nothing that I wouldn't do for my

31:54.489 --> 31:55.520
mother at this point.

31:55.859 --> 32:01.810
I just didn't understand her too, too well, but
she was basically, um,

32:02.760 --> 32:08.680
my soulmate, the only friend that I had in the
world. She came from a Christian environment.

32:08.819 --> 32:11.170
Her father was a Baptist minister.

32:11.640 --> 32:16.339
My mother was always praying for us.
But then again,

32:16.500 --> 32:22.699
she became an alcoholic and was in self-denial
about a lot of things that happened in our

32:22.699 --> 32:27.660
family.
My father was a member of several secret

32:27.660 --> 32:33.829
societies,
the Klan, KKK, and behind closed doors,

32:34.400 --> 32:37.410
he was a Tasmanian devil, so to speak.

32:37.640 --> 32:42.439
He presented himself like a god to our family,
and we were supposed to worship him like he was

32:42.439 --> 32:47.719
one.
When somebody in my family would do something

32:47.719 --> 32:52.380
wrong, it was like the whole house was punished,
you know,

32:52.540 --> 32:57.449
me, my sister, and my mother, we all shared the
same beating with a belt.

32:57.660 --> 33:01.739
Nobody could even, to this day, make me feel

33:02.630 --> 33:07.319
uh, loved like he could make me feel loved at
times.

33:07.550 --> 33:11.329
He was capable of those emotions at times.

33:11.729 --> 33:16.479
So I would, um, punch myself in the nose to
have a bloody nose to get his attention.

33:17.369 --> 33:22.359
The worst that I ever got was, um, I poured
turpentine in my ears.

33:23.510 --> 33:25.339
Before I'd get in the bathtub.

33:26.410 --> 33:31.130
By the time I got out of the bath, I would be
running to my father hysterically and in for

33:31.130 --> 33:37.180
real pain so that he could see that I had real
tears and he would console me.

33:37.650 --> 33:41.910
The divorce happened, I guess, around 9 years old
and my new stepfather,

33:42.050 --> 33:46.390
uh, just didn't
like me, too tough, and my mother was more of an

33:46.390 --> 33:49.579
alcoholic and would go into blackouts.

33:49.989 --> 33:52.400
My sister was now a prostitute.

33:53.229 --> 33:59.319
And, um, here comes her pimp with a Lincoln
Continental with gangsters and from one

33:59.319 --> 34:02.140
lifestyle to the next, so I went to live with
my sister.

34:03.310 --> 34:06.900
And it was understood that I would take care of
her children,

34:07.130 --> 34:12.709
but I ended up taking her customers instead and
was walking the streets of Atlanta and was a

34:12.709 --> 34:16.188
prostitute.
And I was 15.

34:16.358 --> 34:20.868
I went to live with some bikers in the streets
of, uh,

34:20.878 --> 34:23.789
Jacksonville.
I was raped very brutally.

34:24.560 --> 34:26.870
I, I dealt with freaks on the street.

34:27.280 --> 34:31.159
I shot drugs.
The main drug that I abused though was LSD.

34:31.989 --> 34:35.330
I had a powerful imagination, so I liked LSD.

34:36.148 --> 34:40.739
And because of drug use, I became a very, uh,
violent

34:41.780 --> 34:48.669
non-feeling person and, um, didn't trust anyone.

34:49.840 --> 34:55.639
But, um, my mother started calling me back up and
started playing on my, uh, sympathy.

34:57.239 --> 35:03.139
That she had a job of being a companion for
this very wealthy elderly lady,

35:03.560 --> 35:09.760
and she was her slave, her maid, the lady had
the audacity to make her do her

35:09.760 --> 35:12.229
toenails, uh, walk the dog.

35:13.419 --> 35:15.379
This was not part of her job description.

35:19.090 --> 35:24.120
And meanwhile, she was informing me that when
the lady does die,

35:24.370 --> 35:28.840
she has to stick with this because, um, she's
gonna inherit everything.

35:31.649 --> 35:36.860
So one day, uh, my mother mysteriously appeared
at this restaurant I worked at.

35:39.810 --> 35:42.810
She was devastated, she was overwhelmed, she
was crying,

35:42.929 --> 35:44.139
she was in a blackout.

35:45.459 --> 35:51.439
And she was trying to tell me how abused she
was and this lady had thrown her out in the

35:51.439 --> 35:55.500
streets and had nowhere to go and no money.

35:55.919 --> 36:01.360
I, uh, was seeing a kitchen manager and he had
a sports car, and he did cocaine.

36:02.570 --> 36:06.250
We all three went to a motel room and, um,

36:07.510 --> 36:10.399
that's where, uh, it was sort of, kind of like

36:11.199 --> 36:17.800
disgust that my mother wanted revenge, and she
uh wasn't gonna let this one slide.

36:19.760 --> 36:22.879
It was like an uncontrollable force, uh, took
me over,

36:22.959 --> 36:26.239
I know. I mean, I was already calculating pretty
deranged and uh hardcore, but we proceeded to

36:26.239 --> 36:32.679
all get in the car and go back to
Clearwater.

36:32.679 --> 36:37.570
And at the last minute, um, my mom decides to
get out of the car and um she'll wait right

36:37.570 --> 36:40.449
here.
And I'm like, wait a minute, um, that's not

36:41.590 --> 36:44.439
part of the plan.
So we go over to the house and this lady, she,

36:44.850 --> 36:49.469
she was, uh.
Kind of mean. I guess that age you get kinda

36:50.469 --> 36:53.939
mean when you get real old.
I don't know.

36:54.030 --> 36:57.820
So I entered the house and was telling her that
I was there to pick up my mom's stuff, and she

36:57.820 --> 37:01.929
just continued to go off about my mother,
how nasty she was.

37:02.540 --> 37:04.090
She told me how nasty she was.

37:04.820 --> 37:10.100
She, uh, was an alcoholic, she was disgusting, and
it was just really, um, degrading my mother.

37:11.590 --> 37:17.070
She was showing me all her little possessions
that she had, and was boasting about what she

37:17.070 --> 37:18.179
did for my mother.

37:18.510 --> 37:22.080
And before I knew it, I started hearing voices.

37:23.199 --> 37:26.820
It wasn't like just somebody speaking in my ear.
It was like a part of me,

37:27.310 --> 37:29.379
like another self of me talking.

37:30.439 --> 37:33.250
But, um, telling me exactly what to do.

37:33.949 --> 37:37.760
And so therefore the voices were telling me to.

37:39.070 --> 37:45.800
Attack her, and my mother wanted revenge, so, um,
let's

37:45.800 --> 37:49.030
physically abuse her like she mentally abused
my mother,

37:49.320 --> 37:51.550
so I attacked her and strangled her.

37:53.570 --> 37:58.060
I had taken my biker belt, okay, that was real
thick.

37:59.010 --> 38:02.310
And anybody knows anything about strangulation,
which I don't,

38:02.429 --> 38:05.179
you don't strangle people with thick objects,
okay?

38:05.889 --> 38:10.060
All right, you just don't. All right, the smaller,
the thinner is better.

38:11.649 --> 38:17.040
And, uh, before I knew it, I was, uh, totally
saturated in blood.

38:17.449 --> 38:22.520
I, I didn't know, um, who I even was.

38:23.620 --> 38:29.820
And I remember just being totally out of my
mind and totally freaked out.

38:30.800 --> 38:35.280
And my co-defendant just staying there in awe,
you know,

38:35.439 --> 38:38.520
like he's a cheerleader, uh, cheering me on.

38:39.280 --> 38:41.600
And when I did come to my senses.

38:42.669 --> 38:47.409
Uh, I was in the bathroom trying to clean up
and I was hysterically crying,

38:47.689 --> 38:51.679
not understanding things, and I come back into
the room.

38:52.649 --> 38:55.909
And he's coming off the floor with a knife.

38:57.070 --> 39:01.149
I remember saying to him, um, why did you cut
her throat?

39:01.159 --> 39:06.709
Because, you know, and he's like, well, uh, a
damn dead man don't tell us no lies,

39:06.719 --> 39:13.709
and about that time, he leaned over to the sink
and got the Joy dishwashing detergent and

39:13.709 --> 39:18.739
was pouring it on her hands to get all these
big rings off her hands.

39:19.979 --> 39:23.929
And, um, it's like I was outside looking in.

39:24.419 --> 39:28.360
I remember looking down at the dog and saying,
oh my God,

39:28.469 --> 39:32.610
what are you gonna do?
Your master's dead, and putting him in another

39:32.610 --> 39:34.770
room and shutting the door 'cause I didn't think
the dog

39:35.479 --> 39:39.469
could handle it.
I had gotten into the car and he shortly

39:39.469 --> 39:43.419
followed me.
And he had her, um, her pocketbook.

39:44.830 --> 39:49.159
And we went to pick up my mother at the Exxon
station that we had left her at.

39:50.199 --> 39:54.090
And my mom's like, what's going on?
I'm like, I have no idea.

39:54.179 --> 39:55.530
Why don't you just get into the car?

39:56.959 --> 40:03.350
And I'm hysterical, so we go to a motel room
and my mother gathers all my things in a

40:03.899 --> 40:09.379
bag and throws it away and told me to leave and
never turn back.

40:11.229 --> 40:17.860
So me and Mike, my co-defendant, we went down
to, uh, Miami and sold the jewelry,

40:18.310 --> 40:24.510
and I really don't know exactly how much money
we ended up getting out of it, supposedly around

40:24.510 --> 40:25.860
$4,000.

40:27.060 --> 40:31.790
This woman had a lot of stuff that was very
valuable in her house.

40:32.080 --> 40:38.000
Had it been, um, premeditated, I probably would
have taken a U-Haul truck at the time and would

40:38.000 --> 40:41.830
have loaded up everything she possessed in that
U-Haul truck,

40:42.040 --> 40:45.830
but it was not a planned robbery, it wasn't a
planned murder.

40:46.000 --> 40:49.800
It just was a murder and then it was a robbery.

40:50.110 --> 40:53.070
I was arrested on a tip for first degree murder.

40:53.679 --> 40:55.159
My best friend turned me in.

40:56.090 --> 40:57.679
On a reward.

40:59.879 --> 41:03.669
Then they, uh, arrested my mother for first
degree murder.

41:04.080 --> 41:07.129
They arrested, uh, my co-defendant for first
degree murder.

41:07.959 --> 41:10.629
And so I didn't know anything about my rights.

41:11.409 --> 41:15.560
All I knew is I was ready to surrender and I
was a dead man walking anyway,

41:15.610 --> 41:16.820
and it really didn't matter.

41:17.850 --> 41:24.590
So, um, bottom line of the story is, as my
mother was acquitted on a technicality of first

41:24.590 --> 41:28.020
Degree murder; the judge said she was guilty of
second degree.

41:29.320 --> 41:33.860
But, um, you can't be guilty of second degree if
you're not present at the crime.

41:34.629 --> 41:38.149
You can only, um, be guilty of first.

41:39.090 --> 41:41.449
Conspiracy to first degree murder.

41:43.080 --> 41:44.379
And my co-defendant

41:45.120 --> 41:47.189
got a plea bargain.
He only did six years.

41:47.280 --> 41:50.159
He's been free since 1992.

41:51.600 --> 41:55.129
So basically, um, I took the rap for the whole
crime.

41:57.159 --> 41:59.550
They sentenced me to death row.

42:03.129 --> 42:05.679
When I first came here and they shut the door
behind me,

42:05.810 --> 42:07.649
I had a steel door and it slammed.

42:09.389 --> 42:13.820
And I just thought to myself, it doesn't get any
worse than this, right here.

42:14.070 --> 42:18.149
I think that I've reached the lowest life form
there is.

42:18.550 --> 42:21.139
Anyway, uh, I won my appeal.

42:21.669 --> 42:26.100
The Supreme Court said there wasn't a shadow of a
doubt that I didn't deserve the death penalty.

42:26.310 --> 42:32.979
So my sentence was, um, changed to 25 to life.

42:33.389 --> 42:35.030
And I'm on year 13.

42:39.179 --> 42:42.929
I think of, um, my victim every day.

42:47.139 --> 42:48.530
What right did I have?

42:49.510 --> 42:54.070
To destroy her.
It was something my mom wanted, and it was

42:54.070 --> 42:55.389
justified in my mind.

42:58.350 --> 42:59.699
I very much love my mother.

43:41.270 --> 43:46.750
When I came to jail, I didn't know what love
was, and I was so mad at God because why did

43:46.750 --> 43:51.149
you let all these things happen to me?
I'm here for killing somebody, and I was always

43:51.149 --> 43:52.810
so even-tempered growing up.

43:53.030 --> 43:55.469
How did this happen?
How did I lose control?

43:56.280 --> 43:59.409
And when I think of that, that woman.

44:04.889 --> 44:06.560
I hate that I did that.

44:06.770 --> 44:08.489
I hate that.

44:09.360 --> 44:11.379
I'm, I was capable of that.

44:12.169 --> 44:14.399
And I hate that she had to endure that.

44:17.459 --> 44:22.129
I was a really lonely child.
I didn't really grow up in a traditional family

44:22.129 --> 44:24.560
with mom, dad, dog, the picket fence.

44:24.969 --> 44:26.969
I was in a lot of different foster homes.

44:29.070 --> 44:30.899
Well, I had a lot of fears as a child.

44:32.820 --> 44:36.229
I had, like, a bed-wetting problem, so I used to
get in trouble for that.

44:36.800 --> 44:40.310
I was deathly afraid of getting out of bed in
the middle of the night.

44:43.090 --> 44:46.780
Me and my brother Brian were really close, and
we were kept in.

44:47.550 --> 44:52.909
Every foster home back and forth between our
parents, and that just, like, forged a bond to

44:52.909 --> 44:55.780
where he was the closest person to me.
He was my brother,

44:55.820 --> 44:57.469
but he was also my mom and dad.

44:59.739 --> 45:06.379
My dad had remarried and, um, she basically told
my dad she was between your kids or me, and he

45:06.379 --> 45:08.169
chose her, and that really hurt.

45:10.800 --> 45:14.219
I fantasized about what my real mom would be
like all my life,

45:14.709 --> 45:18.239
you know, I didn't meet her until I was like
14, 13 years old,

45:18.830 --> 45:23.830
and up until that point I had all of these
really dramatic pictures of what she was gonna

45:23.830 --> 45:26.469
be.
She was gonna be so beautiful and wonderful and

45:26.790 --> 45:32.860
caring and like Beaver Cleaver's mother, you
know, and when I met her she was an alcoholic.

45:33.189 --> 45:37.419
And so she, she is a beautiful person, and I
love her with all my heart,

45:37.429 --> 45:40.790
but,
um, I think I felt really let down because it

45:40.790 --> 45:44.979
was like, OK, God, you gave me two alcoholic
parents, all these foster homes,

45:45.070 --> 45:47.709
and what, what did I do to deserve that?

45:50.139 --> 45:55.639
This family that we went to when I was 8, they
were supposed to be this Christian, go-to-church

45:55.639 --> 46:02.379
family and everything was hunky-dory, and it
wasn't. It wasn't.

46:03.080 --> 46:09.080
Almost every night for 4 years, her son was
molesting me in the middle of the night every

46:09.080 --> 46:13.979
night, and when I finally got big enough to
fight back and was like, no, I'm not going for

46:13.979 --> 46:18.479
this anymore, and then my adoptive mom punished
me for telling, finally telling my son would

46:18.479 --> 46:20.239
never do that, and we're a Christian family, and

46:20.669 --> 46:25.189
you're just the devil's spawn. And actually, when
I was being molested, I didn't even think it was

46:25.189 --> 46:26.780
sex.
I didn't know what it was.

46:26.909 --> 46:33.030
I stole the book from the library in school, and
it was like everything kids should know about

46:33.030 --> 46:34.929
sex and then how babies are made.

46:35.189 --> 46:41.429
Then I learned, and I was like, oh my God, this
is happening to me, and I didn't understand why

46:41.429 --> 46:43.550
it was different than the way it was in the
book.

46:45.639 --> 46:49.870
When I started using drugs, I was like 14, 15, and.

46:51.570 --> 46:58.340
Drugs just brought out this whole new person in
me that was confident and popular and sexy and

46:58.340 --> 47:03.489
all I did at that time was smoke weed and drink
beer every now and then, but I didn't really

47:03.489 --> 47:07.489
like beer because both of my parents were
alcoholics, so I thought it would be better,

47:07.530 --> 47:08.959
you know, to be a drug addict.

47:11.199 --> 47:14.389
I was living with a 49-year-old man, and I knew
that wasn't healthy.

47:15.689 --> 47:20.250
Prostituting every day for a drug habit that I
was beginning to resent.

47:21.260 --> 47:25.360
I just wanted to be loved, I think is the main
thing during that period.

47:25.889 --> 47:28.889
It didn't matter if any attention was good
attention to me,

47:29.000 --> 47:31.969
even if it was bad, if I was getting the crap
knocked out of me,

47:32.010 --> 47:35.610
it didn't even matter.
Every time I got hit and every time I turned a

47:35.610 --> 47:39.840
trick, I thought this is the life I deserve
because I was told when I was a little bitty

47:39.840 --> 47:42.209
kid that you was not gonna be anything.

47:42.770 --> 47:47.959
ever, you know, and no matter how much you
try to be like everybody else,

47:48.040 --> 47:52.959
you're never gonna be that person because you
were born the way you were and you're ugly and

47:52.959 --> 47:57.560
you're stupid and, you know, I mean like when I
came to jail there was no other cases like mine.

47:57.790 --> 48:01.360
I was the first violent juvenile offender
female.

48:03.060 --> 48:08.129
Um, the day of my crime, I just.

48:10.469 --> 48:17.320
My intention was never to hurt anybody.
It was I wanted money for drugs and

48:18.459 --> 48:24.389
The crack addiction is just like you have to
have it, you just have to have it and that

48:24.389 --> 48:28.790
I remember feeling that, like desperation of I
don't have any money and I don't wanna turn a

48:28.790 --> 48:30.429
date and I don't wanna, you know.

48:31.540 --> 48:38.389
And, um, then it was just like I, I just

48:38.389 --> 48:40.959
didn't care.
I didn't care what I had to do to get it.

48:41.050 --> 48:45.760
I just wanted it that bad, and so this lady
opened her door to me.

48:46.360 --> 48:48.800
She let me in and know the guy that I needed to
use the phone.

48:50.159 --> 48:54.840
And, um, we went in her house and I told her I
wanted some money and she was like well I don't

48:54.840 --> 49:00.280
have any money and I was like you're lying to
me and so I went and got her purse and I kept

49:00.280 --> 49:07.000
getting angrier and angrier and I took what
money that she had in her purse and while I was

49:07.000 --> 49:10.439
in the house I went into the kitchen and.

49:11.209 --> 49:14.370
There was a knife there and I picked the knife
up and I don't.

49:22.949 --> 49:26.830
And when I came back into the living room, I
was just.

49:27.820 --> 49:34.820
Like rageful and I stabbed this woman.
I don't know how many times in

49:36.550 --> 49:43.010
her face and her head and her, like, her upper
body 'cause she was sitting in a chair and

49:44.560 --> 49:46.560
she was like, stop it.
What do you, you know,

49:46.760 --> 49:52.040
she was just like shocked, and I was shocked
and I just like remember just looking at her

49:52.040 --> 49:55.639
and was like, I was like, oh my God, what did I
just do,

49:55.719 --> 49:59.760
you know, and I just panicked and I left.

50:01.030 --> 50:06.959
I went to my father's house and I heard it on
the news and I remember laying there thinking,

50:10.060 --> 50:13.479
Wow, why didn't I think that she would die, you
know?

50:14.350 --> 50:17.860
I mean, I guess I didn't really know at that
time what I had really done.

50:19.689 --> 50:22.310
And it wasn't that I didn't care, it was just
that I didn't,

50:22.800 --> 50:23.879
I didn't think of.

50:26.399 --> 50:28.469
Stabbing equals death.

50:30.350 --> 50:31.530
I was 15.

50:32.290 --> 50:35.399
and she was 76.

50:36.149 --> 50:42.060
It's like I physically did to somebody
defenseless what was done to me in a different

50:42.060 --> 50:44.050
way earlier in my life.

50:44.729 --> 50:49.429
And that lady didn't deserve that and I can't
give that back.

50:49.840 --> 50:55.100
I can't.
Even to say the words I'm sorry, it doesn't

50:55.100 --> 50:58.149
cover that.
You can't say I'm sorry.

50:58.370 --> 51:02.570
I, I killed you so viciously and violently.

51:03.919 --> 51:05.149
I'm sorry he doesn't cut it.

51:06.340 --> 51:11.780
You know, I'm sorry and then like to forgive
myself, how?

51:14.239 --> 51:21.199
They arrested me on a failure to appear warrant
in juvenile court for stealing some food out

51:21.199 --> 51:27.639
of like one of those little mini market
things and, um, they questioned me about the

51:27.639 --> 51:33.290
murder.
And in the beginning, I lied and it was like I

51:33.290 --> 51:35.570
don't know anything about that, and they were
like, well yeah.

51:36.500 --> 51:43.030
You know you do, and they read me my rights for
this murder and arrested me for that

51:43.030 --> 51:47.300
officially.
So my initial, um,

51:49.239 --> 51:56.169
version of the story was that like she attacked
me and it just wasn't my fault.

51:56.409 --> 52:01.489
And so, um, when they gathered all the
forensic evidence and stuff,

52:01.590 --> 52:05.870
they came back and said, you know, we know
you're full of crap and tell us what really

52:05.870 --> 52:12.820
happened.
I gave up drugs

52:12.820 --> 52:17.790
when I came to prison.
It was against my choice and then when I really

52:17.790 --> 52:24.679
can look at what drugs did to me, I don't ever,
ever want anything like

52:24.679 --> 52:26.370
that in my system ever again.

52:27.280 --> 52:31.399
All my brothers and sisters are addicts.
All my aunts and uncles are alcoholics or

52:31.399 --> 52:34.840
addicts, so I don't have to look at just what
I've done.

52:34.919 --> 52:36.750
I could look at what they've done and be like,

52:38.429 --> 52:45.300
Okay, I see it's 11 years later and I'm just
being able to really look and say.

52:48.189 --> 52:50.570
To heck with all the stuff that happened to me.

52:51.620 --> 52:56.050
My parents are like, we're just as much to
blame for this as you are.

52:56.540 --> 53:01.040
No, you're not.
I mean, okay, I had a messed up childhood,

53:01.050 --> 53:03.909
but a lot of people have messed up childhoods
and they don't kill anybody,

53:04.000 --> 53:07.969
you know, so there is, I think there is a line
between.

53:11.469 --> 53:16.500
Being a victim on one hand and being the
perpetrator on the other,

53:16.550 --> 53:19.189
I mean, you can't, you can't be both.

53:21.250 --> 53:22.389
Open 66.

53:28.159 --> 53:35.010
The women's prison in Salem is a place I drove
by every day as a kid to and from school.

53:35.040 --> 53:39.300
We went right by the prison and I remember
thinking, oh, those bad ladies are in there.

53:39.699 --> 53:43.610
Never even thought that maybe 10 years down the
line I would be there.