WEBVTT

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[lights clicking]

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[solemn orchestral music]

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female narrator: Forgiveness
is elusive, mysterious.

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It is an idea, an ache.

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For centuries, forgiveness
has belonged to religion.

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It was expressed
in prayer and meditation.

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Though its practice varies,

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it is embedded
in all of our religious texts.

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Muslims pray five times a day
asking for forgiveness.

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During the month of Ramadan,

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there is a holiday called
the Night of Power,

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when Muslims stay awake
all night

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praying for forgiveness

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so that the scroll
of their actions

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will be cleansed of their sins.

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[woman singing in Hebrew]

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The Day of Atonement,

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the most important
Jewish holiday,

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is centered on forgiveness.

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- Forgive our sins
as you have promised

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on this Sabbath day
and on this Yom Kippur day.

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Narrator:
By its long attachment

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to the Catholic sacrament
of penance,

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forgiveness
has become synonymous

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with a hushed and private
whispered exchange

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between priest and sinner.

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For Christians, Christ\'s
final words on the cross,

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asking God to forgive those
who crucified him,

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are the defining text.

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- God says, \"Behold,
I make all things new,\"

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not patched, not repaired
but new,

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and I think that
that\'s what forgiveness does.

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Narrator: While it was once
a uniquely religious word,

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forgiveness now is changing,

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and there is no consensus
about what it is

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and what it is becoming.

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- Where is forgiveness rooted

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among those who don\'t hold
to a personal God?

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- Can we forgive without God?

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Yes.

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I believe most of us

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have a moral compass
inside of us.

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- There\'s tremendous conflict
when it comes to forgiveness

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For some people,
it must be unconditional.

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- Unconditional forgiveness?

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No, there are conditions:

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repentance, contrition,
reparations,

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and ultimately justice.

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- If I\'m waiting
for her to apologize

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in a way that works for me,

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I actually think I\'d be waiting
the rest of my life.

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- There is a line where
it\'s unjustified to forgive

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or even to say it\'s okay.

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- Forgiveness means
I don\'t have to carry around

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a horrible, concrete ball

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of painful, awful,
suffering rage.

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- There are times when

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you\'re supposed to retain
your anger and your rage.

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- Genuine forgiveness means that

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that one who
would have been the enemy

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is no longer the enemy.

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- What can one say
of the issue of forgiveness?

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It is an issue
of life and death.

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Narrator: However
you define forgiveness,

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its power is real,

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and never more so
than when it struggles

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with the unforgivable,

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whether in the killing fields
of Rwanda

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or in a small courtroom
in Oregon.

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Gary Ridgway
admitted killing 90 women

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over a period of 20 years.

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He plead guilty

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and received life imprisonment
without a parole.

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At the sentence hearing

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in a courtroom crowded with
the families who rose to speak,

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Gary Ridgway listened
seemingly impassive

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to their rage and to their loss.

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- I don\'t know
how to describe the pain.

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It\'s inside.

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There\'s no words for it.

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There\'s no closure.

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It goes on forever.

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I cannot forgive this man.

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It\'s not within my power.

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That I have to leave up to God.

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- There are people here
that hate you.

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[sighs]

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I\'m not one of them.

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I forgive you
for what you\'ve done.

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That is what God says to do,

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and that\'s to forgive,

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so you are forgiven, sir.

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Narrator: Forgiveness can
penetrate the darkest souls,

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if only for a moment.

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Perhaps its power
is most acutely felt

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in our very last hours.

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Then forgiveness
presses in on us urgently.

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It can be a source
of comfort or anguish.

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For over a year, Merle Long
lived in a hospice,

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unwilling to die.

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He had a secret
hidden from his family

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that tormented him,

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and only recently
did he reveal it.

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At the very end
of an exemplary life,

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he felt unforgiven.

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- I was in the infantry
during World War II.

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I was an executive officer.

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At the time,
we were deep in Germany.

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We got close to a little town
called Nordhausen.

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There was a concentration camp
where there were bodies,

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rotting bodies,

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and I can still smell them.

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We had a bunch
of German prisoners

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that we wanted to get
back to the back,

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and so there was one person came
up and said,

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\"He killed your lieutenant
with a pitchfork.\"

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He was unarmed,

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and I shot him.

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I ask God to forgive me
every day.

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It hurts deeply.

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God, forgive me.

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God, forgive me.

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Narrator: Forgiveness
is an urgent question

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not only for the dying
but for the living,

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especially for those who
have already suffered greatly.

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Narrator: Gideon Nieuwoudt

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was a member of South Africa\'s
security forces

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during Apartheid

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and established
a horrific record

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of abductions, killings,
and torture of activists.

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While in prison,

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he applied to South Africa\'s
Truth Commission for amnesty

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in exchange for telling
the truth about his killings.

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He claimed to have
had a religious conversion

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and was experiencing remorse.

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He asked to meet the family
of one of the young men

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whom he had murdered.

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For over 15 years,
he had rebuffed their attempt

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to learn their son\'s fate.

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Nieuwoudt had tormented
the mother,

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calling her in for questioning,

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claiming she was hiding her son,

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knowing all the while
he was dead.

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Narrator: Now he wanted
their forgiveness.

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- Mm-hmm.

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- When did you start
being a Christian?

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- I think we might...
We may be...

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[pottery shatters]

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[all shouting]

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narrator: If the request
for forgiveness comes too late,

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if it is felt to be false

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or to violate
our sense of justice,

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then it can provoke outrage,

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even understandable violence.

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The questions about the power,
the limitations,

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and the dangers of forgiveness

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have been debated
over the centuries.

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But what is new is that
forgiveness is everywhere.

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It is in the air today
as never before.

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The new forgiveness is immodest.

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It is sweeping in its reach.

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It has left the pulpit

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and is at the heart
of the therapy hour

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and the 12-step movements
across the world.

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It is the subject
of scholarly conferences

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and fills
self-help bookshelves.

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Forgiveness has moved
into laboratories

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and under the microscope.

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Scientists are asking,
is it an imperative of biology

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or even of evolutionary
survival?

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But why now?

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- We live in a much more
compressed, globalized world.

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Everything is instantaneously
known in our digital age,

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in the world of the internet.

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People see things on YouTube.

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People are exposed on blogs.

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There is no longer a possibility

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for people to hide their shame.

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We have an absence
of private lives.

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And all of us have become
very lurid spectators.

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There is a kind
of public enjoyment of ritual

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of watching people express
the language of apologies

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and deliver forgiveness.

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Male announcer: Welcome
to \"Forgive or Forget.\"

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And now the host
of \"Forgive or Forget,\"

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Mother Love.

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- Hello, everyone.

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Welcome to \"Forgive or Forget.\"

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- I just want Joanne

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to forgive herself
more than anybody,

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because she still holds it in.

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- Because what I did,
I would not do that to a dog.

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I wouldn\'t do that
to a person, like, I hate.

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I love my mother.
- Thank you.

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- We\'ll be right back.

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[applause]

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- These are
the agents of forgiveness

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in a popular culture.

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There\'s a certain amount
of confusion

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about what forgiveness is.

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What is forgiveness, exactly?

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Well, forgiveness
is a profound transaction

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involving individuals.

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It shouldn\'t be blurred.

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Narrator: In the end,

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forgiveness knows no boundaries
of time or place.

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It is an ache in the human heart
that has endured.

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The need for forgiveness
is that essential.

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While new meanings have emerged
and are contested,

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the old questions persist:

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Why forgive?

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What are the roots
of forgiveness?

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And are they embedded
in this world or another?

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For the Amish,
the answer is unambiguous.

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Forgiveness is an absolute
and not of this world.

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- The Amish way
of unconditional forgiveness

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out of obedience to God

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is awesome, amazing,

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of true mystery,

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of true and radical otherness.

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But in the end, to me,

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it\'s dangerous.

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- Amish schoolhouses are thought
to be the most safe haven,

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the safest retreat of schools,

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probably on Earth.

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[children singing]

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narrator: On a cloudless
October morning in 2006,

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Amish children were gathered
in their one-room schoolhouse.

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A man entered
with an arsenal of guns

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and anger against God

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and shattered the peacefulness
and serenity

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of this small community.

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[gunshots]

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- I went over
the crest of the road,

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and I saw
a one-room schoolhouse.

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And I saw a massive amount
of ambulances,

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a massive amount of police cars.

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And I could also see

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lying in front
of the schoolhouse

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a white sheet,

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and I know that
there is a dead body

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underneath that.

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I was petrified.

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I thought,
\"I can\'t do this.\"

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I knew, as a deputy coroner,

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I was going to see things
that nobody is meant to see.

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The schoolyard looked

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like somebody had taken
several ambulances,

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turned them upside down,

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shook and dumped
all the medical supplies

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out onto the schoolyard.

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There were groups
of Amish people standing,

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sobbing.

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Small Amish children
were standing

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along the side of the road
next to their parents.

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For as many people
that was there,

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it was eerily quiet
in one sense,

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other than the helicopters.

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We went to enter
the schoolhouse.

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The room was indescribable.

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It just was horrific.

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I saw one dead female
lying on the right side,

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and the perpetrator
was lying on the left.

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Both were engulfed in huge pools
of their own blood,

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but there was blood
shattered everywhere.

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Oh, there wasn\'t blood
\"shattered.\"

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- It appears that
the suspect entered the school

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with the intention
of taking hostages.

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Like I said, he came
with 2x6s, 2x4s,

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and these weapons.

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- Then we noticed the containers
with the K-Y Jelly,

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and then we saw the zip ties
and the boards,

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the 2x4s with
the metal bolts in them.

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- He apparently told the kids

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to line up
in front of the blackboard.

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[clears throat]

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At that moment,
he began to tie the females...

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The children\'s feet together.

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- I believe he had planned
to line the girls up

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and sexually molest them

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and then shoot each one of them.

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If there\'s any salvation at all,

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it is the fact that

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he did not get to do
what he\'d planned to do.

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Narrator: The killer,
Charles Roberts, wasn\'t Amish,

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but he lived in the community.

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He was a local milk truck driver

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and occasionally made deliveries
to Amish homes.

00:16:23.834 --> 00:16:26.208
He was married
with three children.

00:16:26.209 --> 00:16:28.998
Nine years earlier,
his firstborn daughter

00:16:28.999 --> 00:16:31.625
died minutes after her birth.

00:16:31.626 --> 00:16:34.416
He brooded over this loss.

00:16:34.417 --> 00:16:38.998
- This young man
is gonna get revenge on God,

00:16:38.999 --> 00:16:43.958
show God how to grieve.

00:16:43.959 --> 00:16:46.124
- I just...
I just don\'t know

00:16:46.125 --> 00:16:48.124
really how to react to it yet.

00:16:48.125 --> 00:16:50.998
It\'s just...
I\'m just, like, in a daze yet,

00:16:50.999 --> 00:16:52.416
trying to figure out, you know,

00:16:52.417 --> 00:16:54.998
what, uh, how we\'re
going to handle this.

00:16:54.999 --> 00:16:56.333
- We can tell people
about Christ

00:16:56.334 --> 00:16:59.998
and actually show you
in our walk

00:16:59.999 --> 00:17:01.124
that we forgive,

00:17:01.125 --> 00:17:03.374
not just say it
but in our walk of life.

00:17:03.375 --> 00:17:08.374
- The community immediately,
immediately,

00:17:08.375 --> 00:17:11.541
announces that they forgive him,

00:17:11.542 --> 00:17:13.958
and these are not just words.

00:17:13.959 --> 00:17:18.541
They go search out his wife
and embrace her

00:17:18.542 --> 00:17:23.958
to accompany her in this moment
of loss and shock for her,

00:17:23.959 --> 00:17:25.998
because she didn\'t know.

00:17:25.999 --> 00:17:29.333
They don\'t sue her
because she should have known.

00:17:29.334 --> 00:17:31.750
They embrace her.

00:17:31.751 --> 00:17:34.709
They become friends.

00:17:37.209 --> 00:17:40.998
- I was flooded with emails
and with letters from Christians

00:17:40.999 --> 00:17:42.998
who wrote that
I had to understand

00:17:42.999 --> 00:17:45.541
that this is what a Christian
is expected to do,

00:17:45.542 --> 00:17:48.750
that God is love
and that we must love everyone.

00:17:48.751 --> 00:17:50.458
And I would write back
to some of them and say,

00:17:50.459 --> 00:17:51.998
\"Are you trying to tell me

00:17:51.999 --> 00:17:55.583
\"that God loves Charles Roberts,
the murderer in this case,

00:17:55.584 --> 00:17:56.998
\"as much as he loves the girl

00:17:56.999 --> 00:17:58.583
\"that he fired 20 bullets into?

00:17:58.584 --> 00:18:00.791
\"Do you really
want me to believe

00:18:00.792 --> 00:18:02.374
\"that the God that you worship

00:18:02.375 --> 00:18:04.374
\"and that the God
who you say is love

00:18:04.375 --> 00:18:06.374
has equal love
for both people?\"

00:18:06.375 --> 00:18:08.166
And they would write back
in many cases and say,

00:18:08.167 --> 00:18:09.791
\"Yes, that\'s exactly
what I mean.\"

00:18:09.792 --> 00:18:10.998
I believe in God,

00:18:10.999 --> 00:18:12.374
but I don\'t believe in a God

00:18:12.375 --> 00:18:14.791
who can\'t distinguish
between a murderer

00:18:14.792 --> 00:18:15.998
and the murder victim.

00:18:15.999 --> 00:18:18.666
[horse hooves clattering]

00:18:18.667 --> 00:18:20.458
- Five young girls are dead.

00:18:20.459 --> 00:18:21.875
- Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania,

00:18:21.876 --> 00:18:23.875
the latest on those
tragic school shootings.

00:18:23.876 --> 00:18:26.458
- People were awed by it
in such a way

00:18:26.459 --> 00:18:29.998
that it survived long after
news stories survive.

00:18:29.999 --> 00:18:32.166
[man speaking French]

00:18:32.167 --> 00:18:33.583
It had traction to it.

00:18:33.584 --> 00:18:35.166
It continues...
And to this day.

00:18:35.167 --> 00:18:37.374
- Dozens of horse-drawn buggies
carried mourners

00:18:37.375 --> 00:18:39.374
to a simple hilltop ceremony

00:18:39.375 --> 00:18:41.998
as four of the five children
who were killed

00:18:41.999 --> 00:18:43.374
were laid to rest.

00:18:43.375 --> 00:18:44.583
Ironically, the procession

00:18:44.584 --> 00:18:46.583
passed by the home
of Charles Roberts.

00:18:46.584 --> 00:18:47.998
- The father
of one of the wounded

00:18:47.999 --> 00:18:49.998
says the oldest girl
in the room said,

00:18:49.999 --> 00:18:52.666
\"Shoot me
and leave the others alone.\"

00:18:52.667 --> 00:18:55.666
The gunman shot her
and nine other young girls.

00:18:55.667 --> 00:18:57.917
- But the Amish are not
calling for revenge.

00:18:57.918 --> 00:19:00.500
Instead, they\'re preaching
something much different:

00:19:00.501 --> 00:19:01.501
forgiveness.

00:19:01.502 --> 00:19:02.708
- An unimaginable crime

00:19:02.709 --> 00:19:04.998
followed by
an inconceivable response.

00:19:04.999 --> 00:19:07.416
- One of the grandfathers
could actually be heard

00:19:07.417 --> 00:19:09.208
instructing
the littlest children

00:19:09.209 --> 00:19:10.998
to forgive the man who killed.

00:19:10.999 --> 00:19:14.208
- It was a lesson in dignity,
forgiveness,

00:19:14.209 --> 00:19:15.833
incredible strength.

00:19:15.834 --> 00:19:17.998
- At one level, I admired that,

00:19:17.999 --> 00:19:20.625
but at a different level,
it really chilled me.

00:19:20.626 --> 00:19:22.500
The Amish can only live that way

00:19:22.501 --> 00:19:24.082
because a few miles
down the road,

00:19:24.083 --> 00:19:25.500
there\'s a police department

00:19:25.501 --> 00:19:27.291
that isn\'t staffed
by Amish people,

00:19:27.292 --> 00:19:29.082
and they\'re not
gonna be so quick to forgive

00:19:29.083 --> 00:19:30.917
when somebody
does something wrong.

00:19:30.918 --> 00:19:32.291
You can survive like that

00:19:32.292 --> 00:19:34.291
when you\'re protected
by a larger society

00:19:34.292 --> 00:19:36.834
that doesn\'t think that way
and that doesn\'t live that way.

00:19:39.042 --> 00:19:42.458
- If you choose to become Amish,

00:19:42.459 --> 00:19:46.249
you agree to give up a lot.

00:19:46.250 --> 00:19:50.249
Individual desires
and even individual feelings

00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:53.998
are frequently sacrificed
to the community.

00:19:53.999 --> 00:19:55.708
You give up a car.

00:19:55.709 --> 00:19:58.500
You give up your right
to dress as you want.

00:19:58.501 --> 00:20:02.500
You give up any possibility
of higher education.

00:20:02.501 --> 00:20:06.750
Forgiveness is a lot
about giving up.

00:20:06.751 --> 00:20:10.791
Forgiveness is about giving up
one\'s right to revenge

00:20:10.792 --> 00:20:12.791
and eventually giving up

00:20:12.792 --> 00:20:17.998
the anger
that one naturally feels.

00:20:17.999 --> 00:20:20.958
So I think that that
can be a danger in Amish life

00:20:20.959 --> 00:20:23.541
and in any community
that values forgiveness

00:20:23.542 --> 00:20:25.708
as highly as what the Amish do,

00:20:25.709 --> 00:20:28.708
that people will feel
compelled and coerced

00:20:28.709 --> 00:20:31.708
to feel things...
To experience something

00:20:31.709 --> 00:20:34.500
that they just don\'t know
how to experience.

00:20:34.501 --> 00:20:36.998
- It\'s been two years now
since the incident,

00:20:36.999 --> 00:20:41.708
and the families
are still grieving.

00:20:41.709 --> 00:20:46.291
The five families whose
girls had died in the incident

00:20:46.292 --> 00:20:49.082
are still very much
grieving this loss,

00:20:49.083 --> 00:20:51.374
and it doesn\'t go away

00:20:51.375 --> 00:20:55.374
just because they forgave
Mr. Roberts and their family.

00:20:55.375 --> 00:20:59.166
- When I first heard
the story about Nickel Mines,

00:20:59.167 --> 00:21:01.791
I responded to it in horror,

00:21:01.792 --> 00:21:04.416
literally, in horror.

00:21:04.417 --> 00:21:08.208
Despite the fact
that I\'ve left the Amish

00:21:08.209 --> 00:21:11.416
and despite the fact

00:21:11.417 --> 00:21:16.208
that I have many reservations

00:21:16.209 --> 00:21:21.833
about things in
the Amish culture and so on,

00:21:21.834 --> 00:21:25.833
my initial reaction
was one of admiration

00:21:25.834 --> 00:21:32.166
that they were able to...
To say, \"I forgive.\"

00:21:32.167 --> 00:21:34.791
And to the extent
that I identified

00:21:34.792 --> 00:21:38.374
with my own Amish roots
and my own Amish community,

00:21:38.375 --> 00:21:40.166
it was a wonderful way

00:21:40.167 --> 00:21:43.374
for me to reflect
on the rich heritage,

00:21:43.375 --> 00:21:46.999
and I wanted to affirm them
for doing it.

00:21:48.834 --> 00:21:53.708
But I have to come back

00:21:53.709 --> 00:21:58.500
to the flip side
of some of these things.

00:21:58.501 --> 00:22:06.082
Every time I read or hear
the Amish saying,

00:22:06.083 --> 00:22:09.291
\"Forgive those
who sinned against you,

00:22:09.292 --> 00:22:11.291
\"for if you do not forgive them,

00:22:11.292 --> 00:22:15.708
neither will your Father
in heaven forgive you,\"

00:22:15.709 --> 00:22:20.917
I say,
\"Hmm, what about that?\"

00:22:20.918 --> 00:22:24.082
Is that really life-giving?

00:22:24.083 --> 00:22:29.082
If I do it
just so that I can find it?

00:22:29.083 --> 00:22:30.083
Maybe so.

00:22:30.084 --> 00:22:31.291
I don\'t want to be too hard,

00:22:31.292 --> 00:22:32.917
but it raises real questions.

00:22:32.918 --> 00:22:36.500
It feels legalistic.

00:22:36.501 --> 00:22:39.708
It feels as though
it\'s not coming from the depths

00:22:39.709 --> 00:22:44.082
but rather
the demands of religion,

00:22:44.083 --> 00:22:47.958
rather than the life
that religion brings.

00:22:47.959 --> 00:22:50.124
- But when something
happens to you,

00:22:50.125 --> 00:22:51.998
when something happens...

00:22:51.999 --> 00:22:55.917
When they kill
your son or daughter,

00:22:55.918 --> 00:22:58.500
what happens then?

00:22:58.501 --> 00:23:00.998
What happens
to the feelings of...

00:23:00.999 --> 00:23:04.998
First of all, of anger?

00:23:04.999 --> 00:23:10.208
Of great loss?

00:23:10.209 --> 00:23:17.208
Of a desire
to reverse time, even?

00:23:17.209 --> 00:23:21.833
Of regret?
If only!

00:23:21.834 --> 00:23:24.625
To the horror of the experience

00:23:24.626 --> 00:23:30.208
of the absence of someone
you loved in a relationship,

00:23:30.209 --> 00:23:32.583
your relation with that person

00:23:32.584 --> 00:23:34.374
who was part of your life.

00:23:34.375 --> 00:23:36.998
Part of your life
has been taken off.

00:23:36.999 --> 00:23:40.166
You are less.

00:23:40.167 --> 00:23:47.374
Can this radical obedience
fulfill those needs?

00:23:47.375 --> 00:23:49.998
I don\'t think so.

00:23:49.999 --> 00:23:53.041
You can only deal with them

00:23:53.042 --> 00:23:58.249
by in some way suppressing them.

00:23:58.250 --> 00:24:00.998
I think that is violence.

00:24:00.999 --> 00:24:06.041
Violence done to yourself
above all.

00:24:06.042 --> 00:24:08.875
- The Jewish response,
as I understand it,

00:24:08.876 --> 00:24:11.458
isn\'t to be so quick to forgive,

00:24:11.459 --> 00:24:16.249
and it isn\'t to be so quick
to spread love around.

00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:20.041
Judaism teaches
that there are times

00:24:20.042 --> 00:24:22.041
when you\'re supposed
to hang on to your anger,

00:24:22.042 --> 00:24:23.458
but even more than that,

00:24:23.459 --> 00:24:25.833
it teaches that forgiveness
has to be earned.

00:24:25.834 --> 00:24:26.998
There\'s no forgiveness

00:24:26.999 --> 00:24:29.833
unless it\'s preceded
by repentance.

00:24:29.834 --> 00:24:31.208
And for that reason,

00:24:31.209 --> 00:24:34.750
I think that murder,
by definition, is unforgivable,

00:24:34.751 --> 00:24:36.333
whether it\'s in Nickel Mines

00:24:36.334 --> 00:24:38.082
or it\'s in
any of these other cases

00:24:38.083 --> 00:24:39.666
where some people\'s
first reaction

00:24:39.667 --> 00:24:41.998
is to say, \"We forgive.\"

00:24:41.999 --> 00:24:43.249
You have no right to forgive.

00:24:43.250 --> 00:24:44.875
You weren\'t the one
who was murdered,

00:24:44.876 --> 00:24:46.958
and the one who was murdered
is no longer here.

00:24:46.959 --> 00:24:48.959
Nobody has that right.

00:24:51.792 --> 00:24:53.791
Narrator: On October 12th,

00:24:53.792 --> 00:24:56.166
almost two weeks
after the shooting,

00:24:56.167 --> 00:25:01.791
late at night, the Amish
demolished the schoolhouse.

00:25:01.792 --> 00:25:03.583
By the time the sun rose,

00:25:03.584 --> 00:25:06.334
all traces of it
had been removed.

00:25:10.876 --> 00:25:14.998
- There was a group of maybe
three or four little Amish boys.

00:25:14.999 --> 00:25:17.416
They were maybe
eight or nine years old,

00:25:17.417 --> 00:25:19.998
and the one boy
said to the other,

00:25:19.999 --> 00:25:23.998
\"You know, they can
take down our school,

00:25:23.999 --> 00:25:26.833
\"and they can take away
our school,

00:25:26.834 --> 00:25:31.416
but they can\'t take away
the things we remember.\"

00:25:31.417 --> 00:25:34.416
And the other one said,
\"You better be quiet.

00:25:34.417 --> 00:25:37.416
\"Don\'t let people
hear you say that.

00:25:37.417 --> 00:25:41.208
We\'re supposed to forgive.\"

00:25:41.209 --> 00:25:44.998
[woman singing]
Slumber, my darling.

00:25:44.999 --> 00:25:49.791
Thy mother is near.

00:25:49.792 --> 00:25:57.792
Guarding thy dreams
from all terror and fear.

00:25:58.042 --> 00:26:02.667
- These Amish people
had each other.

00:26:04.667 --> 00:26:06.998
They had the support
of their neighbors.

00:26:06.999 --> 00:26:09.999
They had the support
of their family.

00:26:12.042 --> 00:26:13.666
But now, what about people

00:26:13.667 --> 00:26:16.666
who don\'t have
that kind of community?

00:26:16.667 --> 00:26:21.998
Or what about people
who don\'t share their beliefs

00:26:21.999 --> 00:26:25.458
in just that kind of god?

00:26:25.459 --> 00:26:27.875
Where do those people go?

00:26:27.876 --> 00:26:31.292
Where do those people
find refuge?

00:26:34.417 --> 00:26:41.291
[woman singing]
While others their revels keep,

00:26:41.292 --> 00:26:47.834
I will watch over thee.

00:26:51.417 --> 00:26:55.416
Slumber, my darling.

00:26:55.417 --> 00:26:59.998
I\'ll wrap thee up warm.

00:26:59.999 --> 00:27:05.625
Pray that the angels

00:27:05.626 --> 00:27:11.834
will shield thee from harm.

00:27:13.125 --> 00:27:16.125
[rain pattering]

00:27:17.834 --> 00:27:20.416
- I think we can only talk
about forgiveness

00:27:20.417 --> 00:27:22.998
and the appropriateness
of forgiveness

00:27:22.999 --> 00:27:27.998
if we also talk
about the existence of evil,

00:27:27.999 --> 00:27:31.208
because if there is evil,

00:27:31.209 --> 00:27:32.998
utter and radical evil,

00:27:32.999 --> 00:27:38.208
then some acts are unforgivable,

00:27:38.209 --> 00:27:43.416
and I do believe
in the existence of evil.

00:27:43.417 --> 00:27:46.625
And I do believe that the crime

00:27:46.626 --> 00:27:48.833
that was perpetrated
against me and my roommate

00:27:48.834 --> 00:27:50.833
is an act of radical evil.

00:27:50.834 --> 00:27:53.041
It was a radical transgression.

00:27:53.042 --> 00:27:56.208
In that time and place,

00:27:56.209 --> 00:27:59.416
in Redmond, Oregon, in 1977,

00:27:59.417 --> 00:28:04.625
nothing of this scale
had ever happened before.

00:28:04.626 --> 00:28:08.999
It was an act that defied
all comprehension.

00:28:11.083 --> 00:28:14.082
One of the reasons
the trauma had remained

00:28:14.083 --> 00:28:17.291
in the collective memory
of that community

00:28:17.292 --> 00:28:18.998
for so many years

00:28:18.999 --> 00:28:21.998
is because
it was so out of bounds

00:28:21.999 --> 00:28:25.082
that people couldn\'t even
tell a story about it.

00:28:25.083 --> 00:28:27.917
It was... it exploded the...

00:28:27.918 --> 00:28:30.998
The usual constructs
of storytelling.

00:28:30.999 --> 00:28:34.416
This event had traumatized
these people

00:28:34.417 --> 00:28:37.834
as deeply as it...
As it had traumatized me.

00:28:40.501 --> 00:28:43.917
- You can never silence trauma.

00:28:43.918 --> 00:28:48.292
The voice of trauma rises up
constantly.

00:28:50.501 --> 00:28:54.998
This story really
captures exactly this idea

00:28:54.999 --> 00:28:58.998
that traumas
cannot be silenced forever.

00:28:58.999 --> 00:29:02.583
They continue to live
in the person\'s,

00:29:02.584 --> 00:29:04.500
in the victims\' lives,

00:29:04.501 --> 00:29:08.041
and anger becomes the vehicle

00:29:08.042 --> 00:29:11.125
through which
the words of trauma are spoken.

00:29:12.792 --> 00:29:16.374
Some people find
the journey of healing

00:29:16.375 --> 00:29:20.166
through the words
of forgiveness.

00:29:20.167 --> 00:29:23.583
For her, the place of healing

00:29:23.584 --> 00:29:26.999
was around the language
of anger.

00:29:32.167 --> 00:29:34.998
- We were sophomores at Yale,

00:29:34.999 --> 00:29:38.833
and in the winter of 1977,
we got this idea

00:29:38.834 --> 00:29:41.833
that we were gonna take
the Bikecentennial trail

00:29:41.834 --> 00:29:44.458
4,200 miles,
coast-to-coast.

00:29:44.459 --> 00:29:47.208
Most people went in big trips,

00:29:47.209 --> 00:29:48.833
and it was, of course,

00:29:48.834 --> 00:29:51.958
a physically challenging
expedition, to say the least.

00:29:51.959 --> 00:29:54.124
The two of us decided
we were going to go alone,

00:29:54.125 --> 00:29:55.458
the two of us,

00:29:55.459 --> 00:29:57.998
and when June came,
we got on the Greyhound bus

00:29:57.999 --> 00:30:00.666
and went out to the West Coast.

00:30:00.667 --> 00:30:02.998
It was absolutely spectacular.

00:30:02.999 --> 00:30:04.750
The mountains were giant.

00:30:04.751 --> 00:30:05.958
Trees were giant.

00:30:05.959 --> 00:30:09.917
I mean, everything
was oversized.

00:30:09.918 --> 00:30:13.416
We traveled up to the top
of the Cascade Mountains

00:30:13.417 --> 00:30:17.625
where there was a tundra
that was just black lava flow.

00:30:17.626 --> 00:30:20.291
We were two girls on bicycles.

00:30:20.292 --> 00:30:22.708
No skin of metal around us,

00:30:22.709 --> 00:30:24.291
open and vulnerable
to the elements

00:30:24.292 --> 00:30:28.708
and to anybody
who might pass by.

00:30:28.709 --> 00:30:29.998
We came down off the mountain,

00:30:29.999 --> 00:30:31.750
found ourselves
on a high desert plateau

00:30:31.751 --> 00:30:34.999
that stretched all the way
to the Midwest.

00:30:37.709 --> 00:30:41.998
We headed to Cline Falls
State Park, a picnic area,

00:30:41.999 --> 00:30:44.082
which was listed in our
Bikecentennial guidebooks

00:30:44.083 --> 00:30:46.918
as a place that
we could stay overnight.

00:30:49.167 --> 00:30:52.249
When we arrived there,
we realized that actually,

00:30:52.250 --> 00:30:54.166
that it was not
an overnight place at all.

00:30:54.167 --> 00:30:55.998
It was only picnicking.

00:30:55.999 --> 00:31:01.500
I made the decision, really,
that we needed to stop.

00:31:01.501 --> 00:31:03.917
My roommate wanted to go on,

00:31:03.918 --> 00:31:07.500
so we had a conflict there.

00:31:07.501 --> 00:31:09.708
There was something
extremely spooky

00:31:09.709 --> 00:31:12.334
about the landscape
and the feeling there.

00:31:14.167 --> 00:31:18.791
We had always had this feeling
that we were being watched.

00:31:18.792 --> 00:31:20.998
As we looked around,
all around us,

00:31:20.999 --> 00:31:25.291
there was nobody
that we could see.

00:31:25.292 --> 00:31:29.709
And we had dinner
and went to bed.

00:31:34.501 --> 00:31:37.082
Not long after
I had been asleep,

00:31:37.083 --> 00:31:42.458
I was awakened
by a very loud sound.

00:31:42.459 --> 00:31:47.416
And then I realized
I\'d been run over by a truck.

00:31:47.417 --> 00:31:49.416
My first impulse was to think,

00:31:49.417 --> 00:31:50.998
\"You dumb asses,\" you know?

00:31:50.999 --> 00:31:52.998
\"Get the hell off of this tent.

00:31:52.999 --> 00:31:54.998
I\'m underneath your truck.\"

00:31:54.999 --> 00:31:58.875
And then
I heard my roommate scream,

00:31:58.876 --> 00:32:00.458
\"Leave us alone.\"

00:32:00.459 --> 00:32:01.998
And then I heard a blow,

00:32:01.999 --> 00:32:04.998
and then my roommate
was completely quiet.

00:32:04.999 --> 00:32:11.791
And I saw above me
a young man standing over me.

00:32:11.792 --> 00:32:13.998
He had an ax in his hand.

00:32:13.999 --> 00:32:15.708
He brought the ax down,

00:32:15.709 --> 00:32:17.998
and oddly enough,
he brought it down slowly,

00:32:17.999 --> 00:32:20.291
in slow-motion.

00:32:20.292 --> 00:32:25.917
I remember that he had
a very lean and neat torso,

00:32:25.918 --> 00:32:29.998
his shirt tucked meticulously
into his pants,

00:32:29.999 --> 00:32:33.917
and I remember thinking,
\"Such an attractive cowboy.

00:32:33.918 --> 00:32:37.625
How could this man
be murdering me?\"

00:32:37.626 --> 00:32:39.625
And I caught the blade
in my hands,

00:32:39.626 --> 00:32:40.833
just above my chest,

00:32:40.834 --> 00:32:43.998
and I looked up at him and said,

00:32:43.999 --> 00:32:45.998
\"Please, leave us alone.

00:32:45.999 --> 00:32:48.791
Take anything,
but leave us alone.\"

00:32:48.792 --> 00:32:51.208
And it seemingly worked,

00:32:51.209 --> 00:32:54.708
because he pulled the ax
out of my hand.

00:32:54.709 --> 00:32:56.082
He stepped over me,

00:32:56.083 --> 00:32:59.918
got back into this truck,
and squealed away.

00:33:02.167 --> 00:33:04.998
I felt myself ebbing away.

00:33:04.999 --> 00:33:08.166
I felt a rush of warmth
filling my body,

00:33:08.167 --> 00:33:10.998
taking me away.

00:33:10.999 --> 00:33:13.998
I could hear the murmuring
of the white water.

00:33:13.999 --> 00:33:16.583
I could hear
the crickets chirping.

00:33:16.584 --> 00:33:18.583
I looked up
into the tree above me

00:33:18.584 --> 00:33:21.583
and saw the outlines
of the leaves,

00:33:21.584 --> 00:33:24.124
and a thought
went through my mind:

00:33:24.125 --> 00:33:26.998
\"This could be any ordinary
cool summer night,

00:33:26.999 --> 00:33:29.166
\"except for the fact
that I\'m lying here

00:33:29.167 --> 00:33:32.541
completely mutilated.\"

00:33:32.542 --> 00:33:35.750
I crawled over to my roommate,

00:33:35.751 --> 00:33:38.750
and I heard this moaning,

00:33:38.751 --> 00:33:43.541
this awful, awful moaning
and kind of a wailing,

00:33:43.542 --> 00:33:46.791
the sound of a wounded animal.

00:33:46.792 --> 00:33:49.998
I put my hand under
the back of her head

00:33:49.999 --> 00:33:53.458
and sought her wound,

00:33:53.459 --> 00:33:55.041
and my hand went right into her,

00:33:55.042 --> 00:33:58.041
through her skull
and into her brain.

00:33:58.042 --> 00:33:59.833
Her brain had been crushed.

00:33:59.834 --> 00:34:03.998
I rallied an extraordinary will
to try to get help.

00:34:03.999 --> 00:34:05.998
[engine rumbling]

00:34:05.999 --> 00:34:07.998
I saw a pair of headlights

00:34:07.999 --> 00:34:11.208
coming around this looped
park road very slowly,

00:34:11.209 --> 00:34:12.833
and I thought,

00:34:12.834 --> 00:34:15.998
\"This could be that same cowboy

00:34:15.999 --> 00:34:17.625
\"coming back to finish us off,

00:34:17.626 --> 00:34:19.998
or it could be help.\"

00:34:19.999 --> 00:34:22.998
- As we were approaching
the turnaround,

00:34:22.999 --> 00:34:27.416
there was this light
waving back and forth,

00:34:27.417 --> 00:34:28.625
and then we stopped,

00:34:28.626 --> 00:34:31.998
and she was just
a bloody, bloody mess,

00:34:31.999 --> 00:34:34.416
like she\'d been swimming
in a pool of blood.

00:34:34.417 --> 00:34:36.541
It was just dripping everywhere.

00:34:36.542 --> 00:34:39.541
- Then they jumped out
of the truck and started...

00:34:39.542 --> 00:34:41.998
And I showed them
where my roommate was.

00:34:41.999 --> 00:34:43.625
- And she\'s even helping,

00:34:43.626 --> 00:34:45.998
and here\'s somebody that
doesn\'t even have a shoulder.

00:34:45.999 --> 00:34:47.374
Her shoulder was run over.

00:34:47.375 --> 00:34:51.166
But her friend was laying
kind of partially in the water,

00:34:51.167 --> 00:34:53.458
and she wasn\'t moving at all.

00:34:53.459 --> 00:34:56.166
But as it turned out,
she did move.

00:34:56.167 --> 00:34:58.583
So we... we grabbed
her immediately

00:34:58.584 --> 00:34:59.875
and put her in the truck.

00:34:59.876 --> 00:35:01.666
- There was no room for me
in the cab of the truck,

00:35:01.667 --> 00:35:03.875
so I crawled in the back,

00:35:03.876 --> 00:35:05.791
and we took off.

00:35:05.792 --> 00:35:09.166
- The call came in
that we had a trauma case,

00:35:09.167 --> 00:35:12.998
that two young women
had been axed,

00:35:12.999 --> 00:35:17.791
not a head injury, not a trauma.

00:35:17.792 --> 00:35:21.583
It was, two women had been axed.

00:35:21.584 --> 00:35:24.998
That word is so descriptive.

00:35:24.999 --> 00:35:26.750
It\'s so palpable.

00:35:26.751 --> 00:35:27.998
- These are innocent girls

00:35:27.999 --> 00:35:30.958
that had ridden their bikes
over the mountain

00:35:30.959 --> 00:35:32.958
to come to our beautiful area,

00:35:32.959 --> 00:35:33.998
and this happens to them.

00:35:33.999 --> 00:35:35.541
Yeah, I did...
Was so angry.

00:35:35.542 --> 00:35:38.208
I said, \"Somebody needs
to get this son of a bitch.\"

00:35:38.209 --> 00:35:41.625
- I was in
the most extraordinary pain,

00:35:41.626 --> 00:35:44.625
both physically and emotionally.

00:35:44.626 --> 00:35:45.626
At the same time.

00:35:45.627 --> 00:35:46.998
I was so worried
about my roommate,

00:35:46.999 --> 00:35:49.500
whom I thought
could possibly die.

00:35:49.501 --> 00:35:52.166
And then finally,
I awoke to the news

00:35:52.167 --> 00:35:56.998
that my roommate
was out of surgery.

00:35:56.999 --> 00:36:00.374
She had lost part of her sight,

00:36:00.375 --> 00:36:04.166
had been partially blinded
by this attack.

00:36:04.167 --> 00:36:07.374
I felt a tremendous sense
of guilt and responsibility,

00:36:07.375 --> 00:36:09.166
because I was the one

00:36:09.167 --> 00:36:11.583
who wanted to stay in that park
that night.

00:36:11.584 --> 00:36:13.833
My roommate would happily
have gone on.

00:36:13.834 --> 00:36:16.833
- Every day,
as I went in to work,

00:36:16.834 --> 00:36:19.124
we asked, \"Who was this?\"

00:36:19.125 --> 00:36:20.750
Expecting an answer,

00:36:20.751 --> 00:36:22.833
and we never...
We didn\'t get an answer.

00:36:22.834 --> 00:36:24.998
- It certainly
opened my eyes to the fact

00:36:24.999 --> 00:36:27.998
that there is true evil
in the world,

00:36:27.999 --> 00:36:31.416
that true evil touched all of us
that night,

00:36:31.417 --> 00:36:34.625
and again,
it came out of the darkness.

00:36:34.626 --> 00:36:36.999
It was just there.

00:36:39.999 --> 00:36:40.999
- Years went on.

00:36:40.999 --> 00:36:41.999
I began to realize

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.791
I wasn\'t exactly
the same person.

00:36:43.792 --> 00:36:46.374
I had a feeling
of stuckness, of paralysis,

00:36:46.375 --> 00:36:47.998
a loss of concentration,

00:36:47.999 --> 00:36:52.249
a seizure of my ordinarily
unflappable will.

00:36:52.250 --> 00:36:54.666
Something was different.

00:36:54.667 --> 00:36:57.876
And with each passing year,
it got worse.

00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:02.998
I was living in New York
in my early 20s,

00:37:02.999 --> 00:37:06.666
fairly soon after
the ax attack had taken place.

00:37:06.667 --> 00:37:09.666
I had these strange
physical fears.

00:37:09.667 --> 00:37:11.998
I began to fear everything.

00:37:11.999 --> 00:37:17.875
My body was afraid
of being crushed by a vehicle.

00:37:17.876 --> 00:37:20.541
I had apocalyptic fears.

00:37:20.542 --> 00:37:23.333
I felt that I had split

00:37:23.334 --> 00:37:28.998
into a kind of
wildly overreacting,

00:37:28.999 --> 00:37:33.791
intensely emotive,
even manic self,

00:37:33.792 --> 00:37:37.166
and then I would
just switch like that

00:37:37.167 --> 00:37:42.998
into a completely numbed out,
deadened version of myself

00:37:42.999 --> 00:37:46.998
that was just kind of asleep,
narcoleptic.

00:37:46.999 --> 00:37:53.998
Some invisible,
hampering paralysis had set in.

00:37:53.999 --> 00:37:58.998
It was as though my ability
to take my destiny in hand

00:37:58.999 --> 00:38:01.708
had been wrested away from me.

00:38:01.709 --> 00:38:04.500
Today I can\'t even relate

00:38:04.501 --> 00:38:08.082
to the passport picture
that was taken in 1982.

00:38:08.083 --> 00:38:09.500
Looking at it now,

00:38:09.501 --> 00:38:13.917
I see the rage that was evident
in my forehead,

00:38:13.918 --> 00:38:17.082
in my peaked eyebrows.

00:38:17.083 --> 00:38:20.998
I wasn\'t aware of the anger
I was carrying.

00:38:20.999 --> 00:38:22.374
Right after the attack happened,

00:38:22.375 --> 00:38:23.958
people, of course,
would want to hear

00:38:23.959 --> 00:38:24.998
what had happened to me,

00:38:24.999 --> 00:38:27.500
and I would like...
I always told the tale

00:38:27.501 --> 00:38:29.708
in as many details as I could,

00:38:29.709 --> 00:38:32.082
and then they would say,

00:38:32.083 --> 00:38:34.458
\"Well, what happened to the guy?

00:38:34.459 --> 00:38:35.459
\"Who attacked you?

00:38:35.459 --> 00:38:36.459
\"What happened?

00:38:36.459 --> 00:38:37.459
Was the crime solved?\"

00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:38.666
And I\'d say,
\"Oh, no.\"

00:38:38.667 --> 00:38:41.458
I didn\'t think much about him.

00:38:41.459 --> 00:38:44.041
Thinking back on it,

00:38:44.042 --> 00:38:47.666
that was a kind of
easy forgiveness

00:38:47.667 --> 00:38:50.416
that I had granted him,
a kind of cheap grace.

00:38:50.417 --> 00:38:54.998
I was very alone
with the memory of that night.

00:38:54.999 --> 00:38:58.124
For my roommate, the loss
of her memory was a gift.

00:38:58.125 --> 00:38:59.998
She moved on, in her own way,

00:38:59.999 --> 00:39:01.541
by being willfully determined

00:39:01.542 --> 00:39:03.333
the trauma would not limit her.

00:39:03.334 --> 00:39:06.124
And she\'s led
a very successful life.

00:39:06.125 --> 00:39:10.416
I had to confront the trauma
in order to be free.

00:39:10.417 --> 00:39:12.416
- Terri told me one day

00:39:12.417 --> 00:39:15.666
that she was thinking
of going back to Oregon

00:39:15.667 --> 00:39:19.249
and trying to find the man
who had attacked her.

00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:21.998
And I felt instantly

00:39:21.999 --> 00:39:25.249
that this is absolutely
what she had to do.

00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:28.541
It was what she had needed to do
for a long time

00:39:28.542 --> 00:39:30.124
to save her life,

00:39:30.125 --> 00:39:35.751
to become free of this mire
that I\'d seen her in.

00:39:37.459 --> 00:39:39.998
- In the fall of 1992, I set out

00:39:39.999 --> 00:39:43.041
to retrieve
the crime investigation

00:39:43.042 --> 00:39:46.124
from the Oregon State Police
in Salem, Oregon.

00:39:46.125 --> 00:39:51.124
I had to find out
the agent of my destruction.

00:39:51.125 --> 00:39:53.958
I began with great trepidation.

00:39:53.959 --> 00:39:55.124
I was afraid.

00:39:55.125 --> 00:39:57.041
I was looking at

00:39:57.042 --> 00:39:58.917
the extraordinarily
beautiful landscape

00:39:58.918 --> 00:40:02.708
through a scrim
of sadness and grief.

00:40:02.709 --> 00:40:05.291
It was an extraordinary
experience

00:40:05.292 --> 00:40:07.708
to feel vaguely remembered
events

00:40:07.709 --> 00:40:12.082
come back into focus
outside the window of the car.

00:40:12.083 --> 00:40:15.500
It was deeply nourishing
in a bizarre way

00:40:15.501 --> 00:40:18.291
to retrace that exact...

00:40:18.292 --> 00:40:20.750
What seems now
like a mythic journey,

00:40:20.751 --> 00:40:23.958
up to the tundra,
through the black lava fields,

00:40:23.959 --> 00:40:27.082
and down into the desert.

00:40:27.083 --> 00:40:29.917
And I remembered feeling
that foreboding

00:40:29.918 --> 00:40:32.998
that had overtaken me
all those many years before

00:40:32.999 --> 00:40:34.500
and was doing the same now,

00:40:34.501 --> 00:40:36.917
because now
the smell of the juniper,

00:40:36.918 --> 00:40:39.917
the sight of the volcanoes
was bringing it all back.

00:40:39.918 --> 00:40:40.998
I was reconnecting

00:40:40.999 --> 00:40:46.917
to that wounded,
injured animal self

00:40:46.918 --> 00:40:50.998
that I had abandoned that night.

00:40:50.999 --> 00:40:53.875
Then the sign came up,
drove down,

00:40:53.876 --> 00:40:55.998
and it was
a remarkable experience.

00:40:55.999 --> 00:40:58.208
I walked voluntarily
to the spot...

00:40:58.209 --> 00:40:59.998
Found it immediately...

00:40:59.999 --> 00:41:01.208
Of where I had been attacked,

00:41:01.209 --> 00:41:02.998
and I instinctively...

00:41:02.999 --> 00:41:06.998
Instinctively, I felt there
was some part of my being,

00:41:06.999 --> 00:41:09.833
some part
of my 19-year-old self

00:41:09.834 --> 00:41:12.998
and certainly my real blood

00:41:12.999 --> 00:41:16.208
had been left behind
in that soil.

00:41:16.209 --> 00:41:19.416
I just instinctively
dropped to my knees

00:41:19.417 --> 00:41:22.998
and laid on the ground,
flat on that spot

00:41:22.999 --> 00:41:28.791
and soaked in that
part of myself that had fled.

00:41:28.792 --> 00:41:30.791
And when I had her back,

00:41:30.792 --> 00:41:31.958
I got up,

00:41:31.959 --> 00:41:35.125
and I walked out of that park
by myself.

00:41:38.417 --> 00:41:39.833
And what I immediately found out

00:41:39.834 --> 00:41:43.625
was that the statute
of limitations on this case

00:41:43.626 --> 00:41:46.208
had expired in 1980,
so there was...

00:41:46.209 --> 00:41:47.249
Yeah, the case was open.

00:41:47.250 --> 00:41:48.541
I was free
to pick up the papers.

00:41:48.542 --> 00:41:49.998
There could be
no prosecution anymore.

00:41:49.999 --> 00:41:51.541
Now, you know,

00:41:51.542 --> 00:41:53.541
I hadn\'t really ever
thought about a prosecution,

00:41:53.542 --> 00:41:55.541
and then suddenly,
I found myself, \"Wait a minute.

00:41:55.542 --> 00:41:56.917
There could be
no prosecution?\"

00:41:56.918 --> 00:41:58.291
This first little piece

00:41:58.292 --> 00:42:00.708
of that anger
that I needed to recover

00:42:00.709 --> 00:42:01.709
started to come up.

00:42:01.710 --> 00:42:02.791
Wait a minute.

00:42:02.792 --> 00:42:03.998
There wasn\'t any justice here?

00:42:03.999 --> 00:42:05.998
That there was still
a man out there

00:42:05.999 --> 00:42:07.416
who was... who was...

00:42:07.417 --> 00:42:09.998
Who was, you know,
had not been held accountable?

00:42:09.999 --> 00:42:11.583
There had been no reckoning
for this?

00:42:11.584 --> 00:42:12.998
Wait a minute.
And it can\'t be ever?

00:42:12.999 --> 00:42:16.541
I started feeling
kind of righteous anger

00:42:16.542 --> 00:42:19.124
about going after the truth
of what had happened.

00:42:19.125 --> 00:42:21.500
It wasn\'t until then
that I came alive.

00:42:21.501 --> 00:42:22.998
As someone
who was nearly murdered,

00:42:22.999 --> 00:42:24.458
I just don\'t feel
like this was ever...

00:42:24.459 --> 00:42:28.249
- I saw this warrior,
this warrior woman,

00:42:28.250 --> 00:42:31.166
who was challenging people that,

00:42:31.167 --> 00:42:33.374
damn it,
she needed some answers,

00:42:33.375 --> 00:42:36.374
and she got them.

00:42:36.375 --> 00:42:37.999
She dug them up.

00:42:40.125 --> 00:42:43.333
- Very early in my pursuit,
in 1994,

00:42:43.334 --> 00:42:47.998
I met a woman who told me
that she believed she knew

00:42:47.999 --> 00:42:51.166
who had committed
the Cline Falls attack.

00:42:51.167 --> 00:42:54.416
It was a local boy,
17-year-old at the time,

00:42:54.417 --> 00:42:57.041
who was well known in town
as a bully,

00:42:57.042 --> 00:42:59.875
a kid... very good-looking
young cowboy

00:42:59.876 --> 00:43:01.249
with a hot temper

00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:05.249
and a reputation
for beating his girlfriend.

00:43:05.250 --> 00:43:07.249
And she told me something
pretty incredible,

00:43:07.250 --> 00:43:10.666
which is that a lot
of the people in the town

00:43:10.667 --> 00:43:12.750
suspected it was him.

00:43:12.751 --> 00:43:14.124
- I was getting my hair done.

00:43:14.125 --> 00:43:15.958
One of the girls said,

00:43:15.959 --> 00:43:17.750
\"I grew up in Redmond.

00:43:17.751 --> 00:43:18.998
We knew who it was.\"

00:43:18.999 --> 00:43:21.917
- A woman that lived
on Cline Falls Road said,

00:43:21.918 --> 00:43:23.708
\"Yes, we live out there,

00:43:23.709 --> 00:43:26.625
\"and we are pretty sure
we know who did this,

00:43:26.626 --> 00:43:29.625
but that\'s never really
gonna be taken care of.\"

00:43:29.626 --> 00:43:34.541
- How could you know who it was
and not tell somebody?

00:43:34.542 --> 00:43:36.500
- The first piece of evidence
that I found

00:43:36.501 --> 00:43:38.249
that connected the suspect
to my crime

00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:41.998
was when I spoke
to his girlfriend, Jeannie.

00:43:41.999 --> 00:43:43.958
He had tried to kill her
the very next day

00:43:43.959 --> 00:43:46.541
after the attack on me
and my roommate at Cline Falls,

00:43:46.542 --> 00:43:49.541
and she had actually
gone down into the park too

00:43:49.542 --> 00:43:51.249
and saw his tire tracks.

00:43:51.250 --> 00:43:53.333
- That was his tire tracks
that were down there,

00:43:53.334 --> 00:43:57.333
and so the following...
I think it was the next Monday,

00:43:57.334 --> 00:43:58.750
my mother and I
went to the police,

00:43:58.751 --> 00:44:00.998
and I reported what I found.

00:44:00.999 --> 00:44:03.708
- And told them, \"Yes,
I think it\'s my boyfriend.

00:44:03.709 --> 00:44:04.998
\"He\'s been...
He beats me up.

00:44:04.999 --> 00:44:06.082
\"He has a violent temper.

00:44:06.083 --> 00:44:07.917
I think he\'s the one
who did it.\"

00:44:07.918 --> 00:44:11.500
And somehow, those records
completely disappeared.

00:44:11.501 --> 00:44:15.708
I drove a lot
of dirt gravel roads.

00:44:15.709 --> 00:44:16.998
And for a number of years,

00:44:16.999 --> 00:44:19.998
I went on
and investigated this kid,

00:44:19.999 --> 00:44:21.998
and I followed him so closely

00:44:21.999 --> 00:44:24.875
and got the police involved
in taking a look at him.

00:44:24.876 --> 00:44:26.041
This man,

00:44:26.042 --> 00:44:29.458
whom I believe attacked
me and my roommate in 1977,

00:44:29.459 --> 00:44:30.998
has consistently denied it,

00:44:30.999 --> 00:44:34.917
and he was never charged
with the crime.

00:44:34.918 --> 00:44:38.708
I also got to know
the malevolence of my suspect.

00:44:38.709 --> 00:44:41.291
And as I began to learn

00:44:41.292 --> 00:44:44.291
about the tortures
of a string of other women

00:44:44.292 --> 00:44:47.082
whose tales I listened to,

00:44:47.083 --> 00:44:53.374
nothing prepared me for
the escalation of his malice

00:44:53.375 --> 00:44:55.583
that I learned about

00:44:55.584 --> 00:44:58.875
when I interviewed
his ex-wife.

00:44:58.876 --> 00:45:00.875
He made her dig her own grave.

00:45:00.876 --> 00:45:03.208
Night after night,
he\'d send her out with a shovel,

00:45:03.209 --> 00:45:06.416
and she\'d be... she\'d be digging
in the dirt her own grave

00:45:06.417 --> 00:45:09.625
where he was gonna
shoot her and leave her.

00:45:09.626 --> 00:45:12.541
He killed
her children\'s animals.

00:45:12.542 --> 00:45:16.124
I know there were moments

00:45:16.125 --> 00:45:19.750
when I felt terrific anger
toward members of the town,

00:45:19.751 --> 00:45:21.958
particularly
this little town of Redmond.

00:45:21.959 --> 00:45:25.750
How could they not
have done anything about this?

00:45:25.751 --> 00:45:28.541
For all the good intentions
of these decent people,

00:45:28.542 --> 00:45:30.541
none of that really added up

00:45:30.542 --> 00:45:34.541
to stepping up to the evil
in their midst.

00:45:34.542 --> 00:45:35.750
Why does this happen?

00:45:35.751 --> 00:45:38.541
I think people
refuse to understand

00:45:38.542 --> 00:45:41.625
the bad news about human nature.

00:45:41.626 --> 00:45:45.208
I believe that people
commit evil deeds sometimes

00:45:45.209 --> 00:45:46.998
for the sheer joy of doing it,

00:45:46.999 --> 00:45:48.625
because they like to do it.

00:45:48.626 --> 00:45:49.998
And I have to say then,

00:45:49.999 --> 00:45:52.583
how can you forgive
an act like that?

00:45:52.584 --> 00:45:54.750
There\'s... it\'s indeed
unforgivable.

00:45:54.751 --> 00:45:57.124
- And what she needs to hear
from us is, we\'re sorry.

00:45:57.125 --> 00:45:58.958
We\'re sorry it happened.

00:45:58.959 --> 00:46:01.124
We\'re sorry
we bred such an animal.

00:46:01.125 --> 00:46:04.958
We\'re very sorry.

00:46:04.959 --> 00:46:07.500
And the people
that really need to tell her

00:46:07.501 --> 00:46:10.500
are the ones that
looked her in the face

00:46:10.501 --> 00:46:12.917
and lied to her.

00:46:12.918 --> 00:46:15.500
I didn\'t ever look her
in the face and lie to her,

00:46:15.501 --> 00:46:18.750
but I\'m still sorry.

00:46:18.751 --> 00:46:23.958
- I felt, yes, a profound
feeling of forgiveness

00:46:23.959 --> 00:46:26.998
of this community,

00:46:26.999 --> 00:46:28.998
because there
was so much struggling,

00:46:28.999 --> 00:46:30.998
just as I had struggled
to come to terms

00:46:30.999 --> 00:46:32.166
with what had happened

00:46:32.167 --> 00:46:35.458
and my own denial for years
and my own inactivity.

00:46:35.459 --> 00:46:36.998
Just as I had done that,

00:46:36.999 --> 00:46:38.458
they were now doing that
with me.

00:46:38.459 --> 00:46:40.416
We were sort of growing
alongside one another,

00:46:40.417 --> 00:46:41.998
and we were all trying
to figure out

00:46:41.999 --> 00:46:46.998
how had we let this
egregious attack go unanswered?

00:46:46.999 --> 00:46:50.583
Finally, he got caught in 1997

00:46:50.584 --> 00:46:54.082
for a crime he committed
against his hunting partner.

00:46:54.083 --> 00:46:57.082
I was very eager to see him

00:46:57.083 --> 00:46:59.500
finally be held accountable
for something,

00:46:59.501 --> 00:47:02.500
and so I attended that trial.

00:47:02.501 --> 00:47:05.082
And the jury did convict him,

00:47:05.083 --> 00:47:08.082
and he went down for four years.

00:47:08.083 --> 00:47:12.249
It was a form of justice,
if not for me,

00:47:12.250 --> 00:47:13.458
but collectively,

00:47:13.459 --> 00:47:15.998
which started to become
more important

00:47:15.999 --> 00:47:18.208
than my own personal justice.

00:47:18.209 --> 00:47:23.208
I decided to go public
at a certain point.

00:47:23.209 --> 00:47:25.208
And although it was very scary,

00:47:25.209 --> 00:47:27.666
it was vitally important
that I do that.

00:47:27.667 --> 00:47:30.998
It came in a grander form
when my book came out.

00:47:30.999 --> 00:47:34.458
By giving this crime
to the public,

00:47:34.459 --> 00:47:39.458
it, in a way, released me
from holding it all myself.

00:47:39.459 --> 00:47:41.458
Could I ever
under any circumstances

00:47:41.459 --> 00:47:43.249
forgive this man?

00:47:43.250 --> 00:47:47.249
I wonder if life is long enough

00:47:47.250 --> 00:47:49.458
to atone for the crimes
that he has done.

00:47:49.459 --> 00:47:50.998
In this case, I would say no.

00:47:50.999 --> 00:47:52.166
A single lifetime,

00:47:52.167 --> 00:47:53.998
the years he has left
on the planet,

00:47:53.999 --> 00:47:55.500
would not be enough.

00:47:55.501 --> 00:48:00.708
- The anger and hurt
at not being acknowledged

00:48:00.709 --> 00:48:04.083
is a very, very deep one.

00:48:07.501 --> 00:48:10.917
When it is being withheld

00:48:10.918 --> 00:48:16.917
by the person that you know
did this to you,

00:48:16.918 --> 00:48:18.917
then you are forced
to exist in a world

00:48:18.918 --> 00:48:25.291
where a lie
is allowed to flourish,

00:48:25.292 --> 00:48:30.500
if only in this man\'s own mind.

00:48:30.501 --> 00:48:37.291
And I think that\'s why
this still causes Terri pain.

00:48:37.292 --> 00:48:41.124
I think it is almost
an eradication of the self

00:48:41.125 --> 00:48:48.041
to forgive
that level of... evil.

00:48:48.042 --> 00:48:49.666
- Forgiveness mode

00:48:49.667 --> 00:48:53.124
was the mode that rendered me
inactive for so many years.

00:48:53.125 --> 00:48:55.998
That\'s the one I had gone
into by default,

00:48:55.999 --> 00:48:57.917
because that was my training

00:48:57.918 --> 00:49:01.750
that I had picked up
from various religious pursuits,

00:49:01.751 --> 00:49:04.750
but in my case,
an easy forgiveness,

00:49:04.751 --> 00:49:09.124
this cheap grace
that I had afforded myself

00:49:09.125 --> 00:49:11.998
was was tremendously
detrimental,

00:49:11.999 --> 00:49:14.998
because it had left me with
this legacy of powerlessness,

00:49:14.999 --> 00:49:17.998
of an inability to take...
To resume my will,

00:49:17.999 --> 00:49:21.750
with an inability
to acknowledge my anger,

00:49:21.751 --> 00:49:27.917
with allowing injustice
to continue in this community.

00:49:27.918 --> 00:49:32.500
- Even as she says,
\"I never forgave this man\"...

00:49:32.501 --> 00:49:34.998
In fact, he never asked
for forgiveness...

00:49:34.999 --> 00:49:37.333
There is an expression already

00:49:37.334 --> 00:49:41.333
of a kind of forgiveness
with the community.

00:49:41.334 --> 00:49:44.333
They, in other words,
represented the perpetrator,

00:49:44.334 --> 00:49:47.998
even though he himself
did not ask forgiveness.

00:49:47.999 --> 00:49:49.708
When she left the town,

00:49:49.709 --> 00:49:52.500
the reflection by the community

00:49:52.501 --> 00:49:56.291
helped it to transcend
that place of helplessness

00:49:56.292 --> 00:49:59.917
and powerlessness and death.

00:49:59.918 --> 00:50:02.082
And that place of transcendence,

00:50:02.083 --> 00:50:07.998
transcending a trauma,
connecting to the community,

00:50:07.999 --> 00:50:14.374
that space that is created
with feelings of recognition

00:50:14.375 --> 00:50:16.166
of the others\' humanity

00:50:16.167 --> 00:50:19.374
is what forgiveness is about.

00:50:19.375 --> 00:50:23.501
It\'s the opening up
of something new.

00:50:38.792 --> 00:50:41.583
Narrator: Not forgiving
is a choice.

00:50:41.584 --> 00:50:44.998
It can be an honorable one
that brings clarity,

00:50:44.999 --> 00:50:49.583
especially if anger
is acknowledged and not denied.

00:50:49.584 --> 00:50:51.166
- I think sometimes
it\'s important

00:50:51.167 --> 00:50:52.998
for people to realize that

00:50:52.999 --> 00:50:58.500
sometimes the things that we do
reverberate forever.

00:50:58.501 --> 00:51:01.998
What we do and what the result
of what we do is,

00:51:01.999 --> 00:51:04.918
they have a lifelong impact.

00:51:07.999 --> 00:51:09.998
What happened to my father,

00:51:09.999 --> 00:51:11.625
he was murdered.

00:51:11.626 --> 00:51:14.626
Very simply, he was murdered.

00:51:16.918 --> 00:51:18.583
My father and his two brothers

00:51:18.584 --> 00:51:21.124
were all Boston police officers.

00:51:21.125 --> 00:51:27.998
They were all police officers
in the same police department.

00:51:27.999 --> 00:51:30.750
It\'s 38 years ago today
that the bank robbery occurred

00:51:30.751 --> 00:51:32.791
and that my father was shot.

00:51:32.792 --> 00:51:36.998
And I was... I was a senior
in high school.

00:51:36.999 --> 00:51:40.998
I think probably
my graduation from college

00:51:40.999 --> 00:51:44.833
would have been
a pretty momentous occasion

00:51:44.834 --> 00:51:46.082
for my father.

00:51:46.083 --> 00:51:51.374
I-I... yeah...

00:51:51.375 --> 00:51:57.998
I think for both of us,
it would have been

00:51:57.999 --> 00:52:00.999
a shared moment
of accomplishment.

00:52:05.999 --> 00:52:08.208
I think it...

00:52:08.209 --> 00:52:12.998
From my perspective,

00:52:12.999 --> 00:52:15.374
I think it would have been
a great...

00:52:15.375 --> 00:52:17.374
I think it would have been
a moment of achievement

00:52:17.375 --> 00:52:19.998
that my father
would have appreciated.

00:52:19.999 --> 00:52:22.166
And I think for him,

00:52:22.167 --> 00:52:25.374
it would have
kind of been a milestone

00:52:25.375 --> 00:52:28.583
in terms of him being a parent

00:52:28.584 --> 00:52:31.458
and his ability, you know,
to raise his children

00:52:31.459 --> 00:52:34.666
and to afford them opportunity.

00:52:34.667 --> 00:52:36.249
And so I think it would have had

00:52:36.250 --> 00:52:38.959
a lot of significance
for the both of us.

00:52:40.334 --> 00:52:46.249
I think that there\'s
always that, \"Gee, I wish.\"

00:52:46.250 --> 00:52:49.876
I wish Dad could have seen this.

00:53:01.626 --> 00:53:03.834
But he didn\'t.

00:53:12.209 --> 00:53:14.833
Narrator:
Atonement is also a choice,

00:53:14.834 --> 00:53:16.998
and it can last a lifetime.

00:53:16.999 --> 00:53:18.998
It, too, can bring clarity

00:53:18.999 --> 00:53:22.625
but not necessarily forgiveness.

00:53:22.626 --> 00:53:25.998
- I tore something
that will never be untorn.

00:53:25.999 --> 00:53:32.833
Walter Schroeder died young,

00:53:32.834 --> 00:53:37.998
and that doesn\'t go away,
no matter what I do.

00:53:37.999 --> 00:53:41.998
It lives with me.

00:53:41.999 --> 00:53:43.998
I wanted forgiveness.

00:53:43.999 --> 00:53:48.500
I wanted to earn forgiveness.

00:53:48.501 --> 00:53:50.708
And I wanted
to receive forgiveness.

00:53:50.709 --> 00:53:53.374
I wanted to do what I had to do

00:53:53.375 --> 00:53:55.583
so that forgiveness
would be offered to me

00:53:55.584 --> 00:53:58.998
and I could receive it.

00:53:58.999 --> 00:54:01.998
- We begin tonight with
an extraordinary tale

00:54:01.999 --> 00:54:03.583
of murder, suspense,

00:54:03.584 --> 00:54:06.250
and a 23-year-old mystery
that was solved today.

00:54:07.918 --> 00:54:10.583
Narrator: One of America\'s
ten most wanted criminals,

00:54:10.584 --> 00:54:14.374
Katherine Ann Power,
had given herself up.

00:54:14.375 --> 00:54:18.583
She had escaped capture
for 23 years.

00:54:18.584 --> 00:54:21.249
A fierce opponent
of the Vietnam War,

00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:24.917
she had participated
in a violent act of protest,

00:54:24.918 --> 00:54:29.708
a bank robbery
in which a policeman was killed.

00:54:29.709 --> 00:54:33.750
- I was stunned
at the national media attention.

00:54:33.751 --> 00:54:35.998
I was stunned
to see her smiling face

00:54:35.999 --> 00:54:37.998
on the cover
of Newsweek magazine.

00:54:37.999 --> 00:54:42.374
When I read the article
about Katherine Power

00:54:42.375 --> 00:54:47.166
and a nameless, faceless
police officer who was killed,

00:54:47.167 --> 00:54:48.998
my father...

00:54:48.999 --> 00:54:52.998
Oh, God, The New York Times,
The Washington Post... every...

00:54:52.999 --> 00:54:57.041
And that one of the heroes
of the radical movement,

00:54:57.042 --> 00:54:58.998
the heroes of the antiwar
movement, you know,

00:54:58.999 --> 00:55:00.249
has come forward to...

00:55:00.250 --> 00:55:02.374
Almost like to claim her throne.

00:55:02.375 --> 00:55:04.998
- I remember
being in the courtroom,

00:55:04.999 --> 00:55:07.998
and the thing
that caught my attention was,

00:55:07.999 --> 00:55:09.625
she was no longer a radical.

00:55:09.626 --> 00:55:10.998
She was a homemaker.

00:55:10.999 --> 00:55:12.208
She was a wife, you know?

00:55:12.209 --> 00:55:13.625
She was a mother.

00:55:13.626 --> 00:55:18.625
I wasn\'t prepared
for her husband and her child.

00:55:18.626 --> 00:55:21.583
- I didn\'t surrender

00:55:21.584 --> 00:55:24.791
because I knew that I had to go

00:55:24.792 --> 00:55:28.583
and answer for the death
of Walter Schroeder.

00:55:28.584 --> 00:55:31.791
My son was growing up
with no family,

00:55:31.792 --> 00:55:35.998
and I knew that was not right.

00:55:35.999 --> 00:55:39.917
I knew that I couldn\'t
be a good parent to him

00:55:39.918 --> 00:55:42.666
if I couldn\'t tell him
the story of my life.

00:55:42.667 --> 00:55:43.998
[gavel tapping]

00:55:43.999 --> 00:55:47.998
- Officer Schroeder proceeded
to go toward the front door.

00:55:47.999 --> 00:55:54.374
- I still had so much defiance
at the arraignment.

00:55:54.375 --> 00:55:58.791
I still had all of the anger
that wanted to say,

00:55:58.792 --> 00:56:01.374
\"Okay, so when are the generals
and the politicians

00:56:01.375 --> 00:56:03.583
going to show up?\"

00:56:03.584 --> 00:56:06.998
- What I heard was,
\"Yes, I was there.

00:56:06.999 --> 00:56:08.875
\"Yes, I did this.

00:56:08.876 --> 00:56:11.875
\"No, I never thought somebody
was going to get hurt,

00:56:11.876 --> 00:56:15.082
and my life\'s been
really difficult since then.\"

00:56:15.083 --> 00:56:19.082
- What people
who had been wronged saw

00:56:19.083 --> 00:56:22.291
was a really incomplete
statement

00:56:22.292 --> 00:56:28.082
that didn\'t express
genuine remorse,

00:56:28.083 --> 00:56:34.083
because I didn\'t see
the harm that it had caused.

00:56:35.834 --> 00:56:41.833
For the really deep work
that I had to do as a penitent

00:56:41.834 --> 00:56:46.998
was to keep peeling back
these layers of defensiveness,

00:56:46.999 --> 00:56:51.708
the fearfulness
that I would be unforgivable.

00:56:51.709 --> 00:56:53.708
Narrator: Kathy Power\'s
penitential journey

00:56:53.709 --> 00:56:55.666
would take years,

00:56:55.667 --> 00:56:59.918
longer than she ever imagined.

00:57:02.584 --> 00:57:04.374
- I was the third child

00:57:04.375 --> 00:57:08.583
but oldest girl
in a family of seven.

00:57:08.584 --> 00:57:15.208
And I was also sort of
the darling of my father.

00:57:15.209 --> 00:57:17.998
I was smart, articulate,

00:57:17.999 --> 00:57:22.625
and really a high performer,
high achiever.

00:57:22.626 --> 00:57:25.833
And growing up in Colorado,

00:57:25.834 --> 00:57:28.998
they\'d have
the state history contest,

00:57:28.999 --> 00:57:30.291
so I won the medal.

00:57:30.292 --> 00:57:32.291
And then they had
the Betty Crocker contest,

00:57:32.292 --> 00:57:33.998
and so, of course, you know,

00:57:33.999 --> 00:57:36.625
I won the Betty Crocker award.

00:57:36.626 --> 00:57:38.998
Narrator:
In the fall of 1967,

00:57:38.999 --> 00:57:41.625
Kathy Power,
the class valedictorian

00:57:41.626 --> 00:57:43.833
from a strict Catholic family,

00:57:43.834 --> 00:57:46.791
arrived at Brandeis University.

00:57:46.792 --> 00:57:48.791
It was another world.

00:57:48.792 --> 00:57:49.998
Brandeis was the headquarters

00:57:49.999 --> 00:57:52.791
of the National Student
Strike Force,

00:57:52.792 --> 00:57:55.374
which organized protests
against the Vietnam War

00:57:55.375 --> 00:57:57.583
across the country.

00:57:57.584 --> 00:58:00.791
Some of these demonstrations
turned ugly.

00:58:00.792 --> 00:58:03.374
More than 400 colleges
and universities

00:58:03.375 --> 00:58:06.998
erupted in protest
and were closed down.

00:58:06.999 --> 00:58:08.998
The war was widening.

00:58:08.999 --> 00:58:11.249
The news came out
that President Nixon

00:58:11.250 --> 00:58:13.458
had been secretly bombing
Cambodia

00:58:13.459 --> 00:58:17.666
while publicly denying it.

00:58:17.667 --> 00:58:21.249
- We almost split this country
apart in the late \'60s

00:58:21.250 --> 00:58:22.998
over this war.

00:58:22.999 --> 00:58:26.249
We had guns that were trained
against our own young people

00:58:26.250 --> 00:58:28.583
who were protesting the war.

00:58:28.584 --> 00:58:30.374
And in the Kent State incident,

00:58:30.375 --> 00:58:33.791
for example, four of them
were actually killed.

00:58:33.792 --> 00:58:35.998
- The war defined
all of the lives of young people

00:58:35.999 --> 00:58:36.999
at that time.

00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:40.208
Anybody under the age of 26
and was male

00:58:40.209 --> 00:58:42.998
was automatically exposed

00:58:42.999 --> 00:58:44.998
to having to go there
and fight it,

00:58:44.999 --> 00:58:48.833
and it was the predominant
national issue.

00:58:48.834 --> 00:58:51.541
We were killing people
by the busloads

00:58:51.542 --> 00:58:53.998
out in Southeast Asia,
and nobody could avoid it.

00:58:53.999 --> 00:58:55.333
I mean, in the end,

00:58:55.334 --> 00:58:57.124
there were more than 2 million
of them that died.

00:58:57.125 --> 00:59:00.541
- And so there was this
kind of panicky... panicky sense.

00:59:00.542 --> 00:59:02.708
Things were getting worse
by the day, you know?

00:59:02.709 --> 00:59:04.833
Every day you wait
is a day that\'s wasted.

00:59:04.834 --> 00:59:06.833
- The world was on fire.

00:59:06.834 --> 00:59:10.998
I mean, literally,
Vietnam was on fire.

00:59:10.999 --> 00:59:12.998
- Society seemed
to be just trembling.

00:59:12.999 --> 00:59:15.875
It seemed at that moment
to be just shivering

00:59:15.876 --> 00:59:17.875
as if it was about
to fall into pieces.

00:59:17.876 --> 00:59:20.249
- We were dealing
with an atrocity,

00:59:20.250 --> 00:59:23.082
and we were enraged.

00:59:23.083 --> 00:59:24.708
The \"enraged\" was appropriate.

00:59:24.709 --> 00:59:25.917
It\'s what we did,

00:59:25.918 --> 00:59:27.708
what we were going to do
with that

00:59:27.709 --> 00:59:28.998
that became problematic.

00:59:28.999 --> 00:59:30.625
- I had to do something

00:59:30.626 --> 00:59:33.998
with my whole life
about this war,

00:59:33.999 --> 00:59:38.998
and I had to figure out
what it was

00:59:38.999 --> 00:59:41.082
and have the courage to do it.

00:59:41.083 --> 00:59:42.500
Narrator: Brandeis

00:59:42.501 --> 00:59:44.708
was one of the universities
in the Boston area

00:59:44.709 --> 00:59:47.917
that sponsored
an experimental parole program,

00:59:47.918 --> 00:59:50.500
allowing convicts
a chance to leave prison

00:59:50.501 --> 00:59:52.917
and receive a college education.

00:59:52.918 --> 00:59:55.082
It was through this program

00:59:55.083 --> 00:59:58.998
that Kathy met Stanley Bond
and two other ex-convicts:

00:59:58.999 --> 01:00:01.998
Robert Valeri
and William Gilday.

01:00:01.999 --> 01:00:04.917
Stanley Bond was 25 years old,

01:00:04.918 --> 01:00:06.708
a former Vietnam veteran

01:00:06.709 --> 01:00:11.082
with brooding charisma
and a history of crime.

01:00:11.083 --> 01:00:13.082
- He approached me
on the Brandeis campus

01:00:13.083 --> 01:00:16.291
and said, \"I\'ve heard
that you want to do something

01:00:16.292 --> 01:00:19.082
more active against the war.\"

01:00:19.083 --> 01:00:20.374
And I said, \"Yes, I do.\"

01:00:20.375 --> 01:00:22.583
And he said,
\"Well, I\'m putting together...

01:00:22.584 --> 01:00:24.374
\"I\'m trying to put together
a group of people

01:00:24.375 --> 01:00:29.124
who will be
a revolutionary cadre.\"

01:00:29.125 --> 01:00:30.750
I said yes

01:00:30.751 --> 01:00:34.124
because I felt like
here was my chance

01:00:34.125 --> 01:00:35.958
to connect with somebody

01:00:35.959 --> 01:00:38.998
who could teach me how to do

01:00:38.999 --> 01:00:41.998
these sort of
low levels of sabotage

01:00:41.999 --> 01:00:44.333
to make the war stop.

01:00:44.334 --> 01:00:47.124
Again, I want
to emphasize the danger

01:00:47.125 --> 01:00:50.541
of stepping into a closed group,

01:00:50.542 --> 01:00:53.458
because you don\'t think
critically anymore.

01:00:53.459 --> 01:00:57.666
And I stepped into that
and said, \"Yes.\"

01:00:57.667 --> 01:01:00.041
- Not only was this
self-proclaimed revolution

01:01:00.042 --> 01:01:01.249
delusional;

01:01:01.250 --> 01:01:03.249
it was destructive.

01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:05.458
There were millions
of Americans out there

01:01:05.459 --> 01:01:07.041
who were decent, thinking people

01:01:07.042 --> 01:01:08.666
who supported the war.

01:01:08.667 --> 01:01:11.998
Our task in the antiwar movement
was to reach those people

01:01:11.999 --> 01:01:13.750
and to change their minds,

01:01:13.751 --> 01:01:16.124
which we had been doing
successfully

01:01:16.125 --> 01:01:19.958
for five years
leading up to 1969.

01:01:19.959 --> 01:01:21.998
And I looked upon this group

01:01:21.999 --> 01:01:24.998
of maybe two dozen
or three dozen people

01:01:24.999 --> 01:01:28.958
who had self-proclaimed
revolution on their minds

01:01:28.959 --> 01:01:30.333
as a slander against

01:01:30.334 --> 01:01:33.124
what the rest of us
were trying to do.

01:01:33.125 --> 01:01:40.708
- The idea that we were at war
was widespread.

01:01:40.709 --> 01:01:44.998
The next thing to do in that war

01:01:44.999 --> 01:01:49.291
was to rob a bank,
liberate funds.

01:01:49.292 --> 01:01:54.998
The only violent outcome
that I projected

01:01:54.999 --> 01:01:57.999
was that I would die.

01:01:59.876 --> 01:02:03.666
I remember
that the plan was that

01:02:03.667 --> 01:02:05.458
three of the group members

01:02:05.459 --> 01:02:12.041
were going to go
into a bank in Brighton

01:02:12.042 --> 01:02:13.458
and rob it

01:02:13.459 --> 01:02:16.124
and leave that bank
in a stolen car,

01:02:16.125 --> 01:02:18.998
and that they were going
to rendezvous with me

01:02:18.999 --> 01:02:22.998
in another car
about 1/2 mile away.

01:02:22.999 --> 01:02:24.166
[sirens wailing]

01:02:24.167 --> 01:02:25.791
narrator: In fact,
the bank robbery

01:02:25.792 --> 01:02:27.998
had gone tragically awry.

01:02:27.999 --> 01:02:30.791
A few minutes after
Susan Saxe, Robert Valeri,

01:02:30.792 --> 01:02:32.998
and Stanley Bond
had robbed the bank

01:02:32.999 --> 01:02:35.166
and driven off to meet Kathy,

01:02:35.167 --> 01:02:37.791
Officer Walter Schroeder
and his partner

01:02:37.792 --> 01:02:40.458
arrived at the bank.

01:02:40.459 --> 01:02:42.041
William Gilday,

01:02:42.042 --> 01:02:44.875
who was sitting in his car
across the street,

01:02:44.876 --> 01:02:49.998
inexplicably sprayed 30 rounds
from a submachine gun.

01:02:49.999 --> 01:02:53.875
Walter Schroeder
was hit in the back

01:02:53.876 --> 01:02:56.458
as he ran for cover.

01:02:56.459 --> 01:02:59.458
- I have a memory
of washing pots and pans

01:02:59.459 --> 01:03:01.875
and heard
on the transistor radio

01:03:01.876 --> 01:03:08.458
that a police officer
had been shot at

01:03:08.459 --> 01:03:11.917
in this bank robbery.

01:03:11.918 --> 01:03:14.833
[sighs]

01:03:14.834 --> 01:03:16.208
[helicopter rotors whirring]

01:03:16.209 --> 01:03:18.583
narrator: The Boston police
swarmed over the crime scene,

01:03:18.584 --> 01:03:21.833
set up a dragnet statewide.

01:03:21.834 --> 01:03:22.998
Within 24 hours,

01:03:22.999 --> 01:03:24.416
they had discovered
the apartment

01:03:24.417 --> 01:03:25.998
rented under Kathy\'s name.

01:03:25.999 --> 01:03:28.998
It was filled with
rifles, ammunition boxes,

01:03:28.999 --> 01:03:30.917
blasting caps,

01:03:30.918 --> 01:03:34.416
most of them stolen from
the local National Guard armory.

01:03:34.417 --> 01:03:36.998
Within a week,
the three men were caught,

01:03:36.999 --> 01:03:39.208
but the women escaped.

01:03:39.209 --> 01:03:42.791
Susan Saxe was later arrested
in Philadelphia.

01:03:42.792 --> 01:03:44.998
Following the shooting,

01:03:44.999 --> 01:03:47.166
Officer Schroeder
was rushed to the hospital

01:03:47.167 --> 01:03:48.998
and went into surgery.

01:03:48.999 --> 01:03:51.166
He had been shot in the heart.

01:03:51.167 --> 01:03:54.041
His aorta was destroyed.

01:03:54.042 --> 01:03:57.249
220 people lined up
in the hallways

01:03:57.250 --> 01:03:59.666
to donate blood.

01:03:59.667 --> 01:04:02.666
The next day, he died.

01:04:02.667 --> 01:04:04.249
[bagpipes playing]

01:04:04.250 --> 01:04:06.249
- I remember the church
just being packed,

01:04:06.250 --> 01:04:08.833
full of people,
and people outside.

01:04:08.834 --> 01:04:10.416
If you stood on the church steps

01:04:10.417 --> 01:04:11.917
and looked at the street
outside,

01:04:11.918 --> 01:04:14.998
it was just a sea of blue.

01:04:14.999 --> 01:04:17.708
- Face!

01:04:17.709 --> 01:04:19.708
- As far as you could see
in every direction

01:04:19.709 --> 01:04:23.374
were just police officers.

01:04:23.375 --> 01:04:25.374
On the day that my father died,

01:04:25.375 --> 01:04:26.998
my mother had nine children,

01:04:26.999 --> 01:04:28.625
the youngest of whom
was 11 months old.

01:04:28.626 --> 01:04:29.958
She had a...

01:04:29.959 --> 01:04:31.998
So essentially, a one-year-old,
a three-year-old,

01:04:31.999 --> 01:04:33.708
a five-year-old,
a seven-year-old.

01:04:33.709 --> 01:04:35.458
So there was a lot of concern.

01:04:35.459 --> 01:04:39.875
What\'s going to happen?

01:04:39.876 --> 01:04:41.666
- I think
the survival part of me

01:04:41.667 --> 01:04:45.249
just pushed that aside

01:04:45.250 --> 01:04:50.875
into a place where
I wouldn\'t look at it

01:04:50.876 --> 01:04:53.998
for a really long time,

01:04:53.999 --> 01:04:59.750
because when I finally
ever looked at it,

01:04:59.751 --> 01:05:01.750
I didn\'t know
how I could continue

01:05:01.751 --> 01:05:04.999
to think of myself
as a human being.

01:05:06.834 --> 01:05:10.374
I spent the next
23 years of my life

01:05:10.375 --> 01:05:14.374
with a divided awareness

01:05:14.375 --> 01:05:21.500
that, on the one hand,
I was monster,

01:05:21.501 --> 01:05:26.500
and on the other hand,
I was going to live.

01:05:26.501 --> 01:05:31.082
Running away meant
driving a car out of town,

01:05:31.083 --> 01:05:32.708
getting on an airplane,

01:05:32.709 --> 01:05:34.917
getting on a train,

01:05:34.918 --> 01:05:35.998
cutting off my hair,

01:05:35.999 --> 01:05:37.998
buying different pairs
of glasses,

01:05:37.999 --> 01:05:39.458
coloring my hair.

01:05:39.459 --> 01:05:41.875
Living in terror,

01:05:41.876 --> 01:05:44.041
trying to do the next thing,

01:05:44.042 --> 01:05:45.998
which is... I don\'t know...
You get an apartment.

01:05:45.999 --> 01:05:47.041
You get a job.

01:05:47.042 --> 01:05:51.416
And none of what
you tell anybody is true.

01:05:51.417 --> 01:05:53.998
I didn\'t see my family.

01:05:53.999 --> 01:05:56.998
I mean, I would, like,
go to libraries

01:05:56.999 --> 01:05:58.833
and check the phone books,

01:05:58.834 --> 01:06:00.708
and they would still be listed.

01:06:00.709 --> 01:06:05.083
And I suffered
more bouts of depression.

01:06:09.542 --> 01:06:11.750
I moved to Oregon,

01:06:11.751 --> 01:06:14.333
and I had
a social security number

01:06:14.334 --> 01:06:17.124
that I could get a job

01:06:17.125 --> 01:06:18.875
and stay in one community

01:06:18.876 --> 01:06:21.666
for, like, uninterrupted
amount of time

01:06:21.667 --> 01:06:26.999
and form relationships
and make a life.

01:06:30.042 --> 01:06:32.998
Narrator: Kathy changes her name
to Alice Metzinger,

01:06:32.999 --> 01:06:35.291
starts a successful restaurant,

01:06:35.292 --> 01:06:38.708
and wins a culinary prize
as the chef of the year.

01:06:38.709 --> 01:06:40.291
She becomes a family woman

01:06:40.292 --> 01:06:42.917
and an active member
of her community.

01:06:42.918 --> 01:06:46.291
- This life that I was living,

01:06:46.292 --> 01:06:48.291
it wasn\'t sustainable,

01:06:48.292 --> 01:06:51.374
even though it looked
pretty ordinary

01:06:51.375 --> 01:06:53.791
and pretty successful.

01:06:53.792 --> 01:06:57.998
This shame dragging me down,

01:06:57.999 --> 01:07:02.998
this shame made me feel
like I didn\'t deserve to live.

01:07:02.999 --> 01:07:05.374
I didn\'t deserve the good things

01:07:05.375 --> 01:07:09.791
that came from working
at my restaurant.

01:07:09.792 --> 01:07:11.791
I didn\'t deserve the good things

01:07:11.792 --> 01:07:19.166
that came from
building a family life.

01:07:19.167 --> 01:07:24.833
I felt that I deserved nothing.

01:07:24.834 --> 01:07:32.208
So I knew
that I had to surrender.

01:07:32.209 --> 01:07:34.416
- I know that
she struggled with this:

01:07:34.417 --> 01:07:38.416
\"How can I leave my son
and my partner, Ron,

01:07:38.417 --> 01:07:41.124
because of what I need?\"

01:07:41.125 --> 01:07:43.333
But this is not an \"I need\"

01:07:43.334 --> 01:07:45.998
that is at a shallow level.

01:07:45.999 --> 01:07:47.750
This is at the deepest
possible level.

01:07:47.751 --> 01:07:49.750
I think Kathy
knew that she needed

01:07:49.751 --> 01:07:55.625
to do this repentance work
and public confession

01:07:55.626 --> 01:07:56.998
and to do the right thing,

01:07:56.999 --> 01:07:59.124
because she wasn\'t
going to survive otherwise.

01:07:59.125 --> 01:08:01.124
- William Morrow Gilday...

01:08:01.125 --> 01:08:06.875
- I had prepared
a statement for my surrender

01:08:06.876 --> 01:08:11.249
that was really
full of defensiveness,

01:08:11.250 --> 01:08:14.666
that contextualized my acts

01:08:14.667 --> 01:08:20.458
in the violence
of the Vietnam War,

01:08:20.459 --> 01:08:26.458
that took credit
for my intention,

01:08:26.459 --> 01:08:27.998
which was not to harm anyone,

01:08:27.999 --> 01:08:29.041
rather than that fact,

01:08:29.042 --> 01:08:30.998
which is, somebody was killed.

01:08:30.999 --> 01:08:38.208
I took limited responsibility
for what I had done

01:08:38.209 --> 01:08:41.041
because I couldn\'t even
look at that.

01:08:41.042 --> 01:08:45.875
- All rise, please.

01:08:45.876 --> 01:08:48.249
This honorable court
is now in session.

01:08:48.250 --> 01:08:49.458
Please, be seated.

01:08:49.459 --> 01:08:51.958
- At the sentencing,
Clare Schroeder,

01:08:51.959 --> 01:08:54.124
the daughter
of Walter Schroeder,

01:08:54.125 --> 01:08:56.541
read a victim impact statement.

01:08:56.542 --> 01:08:59.958
She talked about
her family\'s suffering.

01:08:59.959 --> 01:09:02.998
- I wish I could take
at least some comfort

01:09:02.999 --> 01:09:04.541
in knowing that Katherine Power

01:09:04.542 --> 01:09:08.124
feels genuine remorse
for her crime.

01:09:08.125 --> 01:09:09.998
But I have read the statement
that she made

01:09:09.999 --> 01:09:11.958
when she surrendered
to the Boston police

01:09:11.959 --> 01:09:12.998
over and over again,

01:09:12.999 --> 01:09:15.124
and there is not
a shred of apology

01:09:15.125 --> 01:09:17.124
for the murder of my father.

01:09:17.125 --> 01:09:21.834
She does not even mention
my mother or any of us.

01:09:25.999 --> 01:09:27.416
- Ms. Power,
when I accepted

01:09:27.417 --> 01:09:31.541
your plea of guilty
several weeks ago,

01:09:31.542 --> 01:09:34.333
I\'m exceeding the recommendation

01:09:34.334 --> 01:09:37.998
by imposing
a probation condition.

01:09:37.999 --> 01:09:39.541
Do you accept that,

01:09:39.542 --> 01:09:42.541
or do you wish
to withdraw your plea?

01:09:42.542 --> 01:09:44.124
- I accept it.

01:09:44.125 --> 01:09:46.125
- You may step down.

01:09:49.334 --> 01:09:50.998
- The thing that happened,

01:09:50.999 --> 01:09:54.750
because I did have to serve
my time in Massachusetts,

01:09:54.751 --> 01:09:57.998
is that I couldn\'t escape
what I was there for.

01:09:57.999 --> 01:10:05.750
I couldn\'t escape
the scrutiny of people

01:10:05.751 --> 01:10:08.998
who would not
put the history aside

01:10:08.999 --> 01:10:12.958
until it was time
to put the history aside,

01:10:12.959 --> 01:10:14.998
who wouldn\'t say,

01:10:14.999 --> 01:10:17.998
\"Okay, it\'s time
to live in the present;

01:10:17.999 --> 01:10:19.416
all is forgiven,\"

01:10:19.417 --> 01:10:25.998
until justice
had somehow clearly been served.

01:10:25.999 --> 01:10:32.998
Part of justice
is that I had to suffer,

01:10:32.999 --> 01:10:37.125
and I had to be seen to suffer.

01:10:40.626 --> 01:10:42.998
- I think that Kathy

01:10:42.999 --> 01:10:46.998
also had to get past
the \"yes, but,\"

01:10:46.999 --> 01:10:48.998
is the way I\'ve heard her
describe it.

01:10:48.999 --> 01:10:50.082
\"Yes, I did a terrible thing,

01:10:50.083 --> 01:10:53.998
\"but look at what
Kissinger and McNamara

01:10:53.999 --> 01:10:55.374
\"and the others did.

01:10:55.375 --> 01:10:57.374
\"Yes, I made a bad decision,

01:10:57.375 --> 01:11:00.833
but it was in the context
of this atrocity.\"

01:11:00.834 --> 01:11:04.416
That reality of what
the leaders of the country

01:11:04.417 --> 01:11:06.998
did about Vietnam, that\'s real,

01:11:06.999 --> 01:11:08.998
but it\'s irrelevant.

01:11:08.999 --> 01:11:12.583
In this process
of repentance only,

01:11:12.584 --> 01:11:13.998
that is irrelevant.

01:11:13.999 --> 01:11:16.791
It doesn\'t matter what
other people in our lives did.

01:11:16.792 --> 01:11:18.998
It could be the same thing
in a marital relationship.

01:11:18.999 --> 01:11:21.291
If you want to do a searching
and fearless moral inventory,

01:11:21.292 --> 01:11:24.291
it\'s not about, \"Yes,
but, you know, he\'s a jerk,

01:11:24.292 --> 01:11:25.998
or she\'s a jerk.\"

01:11:25.999 --> 01:11:27.291
It\'s really about focusing...

01:11:27.292 --> 01:11:29.291
Keeping the focus on ourselves.

01:11:29.292 --> 01:11:31.998
That\'s... that\'s hard.

01:11:31.999 --> 01:11:34.124
It doesn\'t have to be
about the generals.

01:11:34.125 --> 01:11:37.998
The \"yes, but\" is something
everybody experiences.

01:11:37.999 --> 01:11:41.208
And we don\'t have
to become ignorant

01:11:41.209 --> 01:11:43.625
of the other person\'s stuff,

01:11:43.626 --> 01:11:46.291
but it\'s not relevant
to this process.

01:11:46.292 --> 01:11:49.416
And that takes time,
and it takes courage.

01:11:49.417 --> 01:11:52.917
- The hardest work

01:11:52.918 --> 01:11:57.500
was to keep peeling back
these layers of defensiveness,

01:11:57.501 --> 01:12:03.917
the comfort of not looking
at what I had done,

01:12:03.918 --> 01:12:07.416
and I got through all that.

01:12:07.417 --> 01:12:09.998
I was really, like, laid bare.

01:12:09.999 --> 01:12:14.998
I was really,
utterly connected now

01:12:14.999 --> 01:12:19.416
with the stories
of the human harm,

01:12:19.417 --> 01:12:22.998
the human suffering
that my actions had caused,

01:12:22.999 --> 01:12:25.458
the holes in lives
that they left,

01:12:25.459 --> 01:12:27.875
the fears that they created.

01:12:27.876 --> 01:12:30.875
But there was this one place
where I was blocked,

01:12:30.876 --> 01:12:31.998
and it was this, like...

01:12:31.999 --> 01:12:33.666
It was the last
of the \"yes, buts.\"

01:12:33.667 --> 01:12:35.998
It was the generals
and the whole war machinery.

01:12:35.999 --> 01:12:39.666
It was:
how come Robert McNamara,

01:12:39.667 --> 01:12:43.998
who is responsible
for all these deaths

01:12:43.999 --> 01:12:46.666
doesn\'t have to be
held accountable,

01:12:46.667 --> 01:12:48.917
but I do?

01:12:48.918 --> 01:12:53.791
And I just...
I was in so much awareness

01:12:53.792 --> 01:12:58.666
of the unjust order

01:12:58.667 --> 01:13:02.041
where some people get away
with all kinds of things

01:13:02.042 --> 01:13:04.458
and other people
are held accountable.

01:13:04.459 --> 01:13:06.249
So I was in a prison
with prostitutes,

01:13:06.250 --> 01:13:11.416
but the johns
didn\'t get prosecuted.

01:13:11.417 --> 01:13:13.998
And so it was the johns
and the generals

01:13:13.999 --> 01:13:17.166
and all of the people
responsible

01:13:17.167 --> 01:13:20.374
for all kinds of suffering
that I knew about,

01:13:20.375 --> 01:13:22.583
that many people know about.

01:13:22.584 --> 01:13:24.791
Why didn\'t they
have to answer for it?

01:13:24.792 --> 01:13:26.583
And I was so stuck there,

01:13:26.584 --> 01:13:28.166
and I knew that I was stuck,

01:13:28.167 --> 01:13:31.374
and I couldn\'t think
through it anymore,

01:13:31.375 --> 01:13:33.998
because that
wasn\'t getting me anywhere.

01:13:33.999 --> 01:13:36.374
And I was writing about it,

01:13:36.375 --> 01:13:38.998
sitting in my cell, freewriting,

01:13:38.999 --> 01:13:41.791
and writing about, you know,
\"Why don\'t they have to?\"

01:13:41.792 --> 01:13:45.998
And suddenly,
these... these words:

01:13:45.999 --> 01:13:49.249
\"Forgive us our trespasses

01:13:49.250 --> 01:13:54.750
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.\"

01:13:54.751 --> 01:13:57.333
And that was it.

01:13:57.334 --> 01:14:01.998
I forgave...

01:14:01.999 --> 01:14:09.999
those generals
for being where they were,

01:14:10.125 --> 01:14:11.750
doing what they did.

01:14:11.751 --> 01:14:19.500
I saw a world of forgiveness

01:14:19.501 --> 01:14:24.917
where we are all

01:14:24.918 --> 01:14:30.291
in the embrace
of that forgiveness,

01:14:30.292 --> 01:14:35.500
of that forgivable-ness.

01:14:35.501 --> 01:14:42.291
And I couldn\'t get myself there

01:14:42.292 --> 01:14:50.292
until I got those people
I hadn\'t forgiven there.

01:14:50.918 --> 01:14:52.999
And I was through.

01:14:55.999 --> 01:14:57.625
- Then a buzz came

01:14:57.626 --> 01:14:59.998
that Katherine Power
was up for parole,

01:14:59.999 --> 01:15:02.998
and it became emblematic

01:15:02.999 --> 01:15:08.998
for the whole
Vietnam era issues,

01:15:08.999 --> 01:15:10.998
not only just
who was for and against the war

01:15:10.999 --> 01:15:11.999
but who served in the war,

01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:13.998
who got out
of the serving in the war,

01:15:13.999 --> 01:15:16.791
and the idea of privilege
as well.

01:15:16.792 --> 01:15:19.666
So everybody\'s running full bore
on this one now.

01:15:19.667 --> 01:15:26.459
Do you seek retribution,
or do you forgive?

01:15:28.584 --> 01:15:29.584
- I walked in.

01:15:29.585 --> 01:15:31.998
My hands were shackled.

01:15:31.999 --> 01:15:35.374
I sat in a chair
facing the parole board,

01:15:35.375 --> 01:15:36.998
five people on the parole board

01:15:36.999 --> 01:15:39.791
with many members
of the Schroeder family

01:15:39.792 --> 01:15:41.998
and some other people
in the back of the room.

01:15:41.999 --> 01:15:44.082
- What I got to see and to hear

01:15:44.083 --> 01:15:46.291
was somebody who recog...

01:15:46.292 --> 01:15:48.998
It seemed to me,
whose tone changed.

01:15:48.999 --> 01:15:53.583
- I was asked
really probing questions,

01:15:53.584 --> 01:15:59.374
and then it was
Clare Schroeder\'s turn to speak.

01:15:59.375 --> 01:16:01.998
- Clare Schroeder
spoke and said,

01:16:01.999 --> 01:16:04.998
\"Well, yeah, we kind of like
what we hear,

01:16:04.999 --> 01:16:08.998
\"but anybody with a brain
would know that

01:16:08.999 --> 01:16:12.458
\"you need to show remorse
at a parole hearing,

01:16:12.459 --> 01:16:17.124
so it\'s in her self-interest
to show remorse now.\"

01:16:17.125 --> 01:16:20.998
- She talked about when
they discussed my sentence,

01:16:20.999 --> 01:16:22.541
and they had to say yes.

01:16:22.542 --> 01:16:24.333
It was all they could get.

01:16:24.334 --> 01:16:26.958
It didn\'t feel like enough.

01:16:26.959 --> 01:16:28.750
But it was all they could get.

01:16:28.751 --> 01:16:30.124
And she said, \"And now,

01:16:30.125 --> 01:16:34.333
\"she doesn\'t even
want to do that.

01:16:34.334 --> 01:16:38.541
She doesn\'t even
want to keep that agreement.\"

01:16:38.542 --> 01:16:41.625
And I felt in that moment
like I knew what to do.

01:16:41.626 --> 01:16:44.998
And so I told them that

01:16:44.999 --> 01:16:48.833
as long as
my statement of remorse

01:16:48.834 --> 01:16:52.374
and accepting responsibility
for what I\'d done

01:16:52.375 --> 01:16:57.166
was attached to my asking
to get out of prison

01:16:57.167 --> 01:16:58.791
at this time,

01:16:58.792 --> 01:16:59.998
that it couldn\'t be seen.

01:16:59.999 --> 01:17:00.999
It couldn\'t be heard.

01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:02.583
So I would detach it from that,

01:17:02.584 --> 01:17:05.374
and I withdrew
my request for parole.

01:17:05.375 --> 01:17:09.917
- It was really one of those...

01:17:09.918 --> 01:17:12.082
It was a holy [...] moment.

01:17:12.083 --> 01:17:14.666
It stopped everybody
in their tracks,

01:17:14.667 --> 01:17:18.458
\'cause what was else
was there to say?

01:17:18.459 --> 01:17:24.041
She had done more
than anybody had expected.

01:17:24.042 --> 01:17:26.041
Very few people

01:17:26.042 --> 01:17:31.875
say they were wrong
in a public way.

01:17:31.876 --> 01:17:35.458
Very few people are willing
to face their punishment,

01:17:35.459 --> 01:17:37.458
certainly by today\'s standards.

01:17:37.459 --> 01:17:41.458
And when Katherine Power said,
\"I was wrong.

01:17:41.459 --> 01:17:43.041
\"I was slow to admit it.

01:17:43.042 --> 01:17:46.249
\"I admit it now,
and I apologize,

01:17:46.250 --> 01:17:52.333
and I will serve out
whatever I need to serve out,\"

01:17:52.334 --> 01:17:55.998
that was a refreshing...

01:17:55.999 --> 01:17:59.333
Just a refreshing change

01:17:59.334 --> 01:18:03.124
to what the public
was used to seeing.

01:18:03.125 --> 01:18:07.998
- The next day, I was so aware
of my disappointment.

01:18:07.999 --> 01:18:12.998
My son really needed me,

01:18:12.999 --> 01:18:17.584
and I could not go
and be with him.

01:18:18.999 --> 01:18:20.998
The hardship of prison...

01:18:20.999 --> 01:18:27.708
I wasn\'t trying to get away
from the hardship of prison.

01:18:27.709 --> 01:18:33.999
I wanted to go
because my son needed me.

01:18:36.792 --> 01:18:38.583
- I certainly at least
admired the fact

01:18:38.584 --> 01:18:40.998
that she requested
to withdraw parole,

01:18:40.999 --> 01:18:41.999
to stay longer,

01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:43.374
because it goes
against the grain

01:18:43.375 --> 01:18:44.998
of what a person
would want to do.

01:18:44.999 --> 01:18:47.750
You\'d want to get out of prison
as quickly as possible.

01:18:47.751 --> 01:18:52.625
So I thought the fact that
she felt she was doing

01:18:52.626 --> 01:18:55.917
something that
was beneficial for us

01:18:55.918 --> 01:18:57.500
said something
at least in regards

01:18:57.501 --> 01:19:01.875
to some growth that she...

01:19:01.876 --> 01:19:04.666
And some thought, some feeling,
and some growth,

01:19:04.667 --> 01:19:06.998
that... that had occurred,

01:19:06.999 --> 01:19:09.124
that she acknowledged
on a greater level

01:19:09.125 --> 01:19:10.333
than at least in the past

01:19:10.334 --> 01:19:11.541
as to what she had done

01:19:11.542 --> 01:19:13.958
and the harm
that she had caused.

01:19:13.959 --> 01:19:17.124
- I asked her
what she had hoped for

01:19:17.125 --> 01:19:19.666
with respect
to the Schroeder family.

01:19:19.667 --> 01:19:21.249
And she said,

01:19:21.250 --> 01:19:28.998
\"I have no right
to expect anything of them.

01:19:28.999 --> 01:19:35.459
I have no right
to ask anything of them.\"

01:19:37.667 --> 01:19:42.458
And that seemed, to me, right.

01:19:42.459 --> 01:19:43.875
[cameras clicking]

01:19:43.876 --> 01:19:46.998
- I hope that she can say
that she redeemed herself

01:19:46.999 --> 01:19:50.249
and became the person
that she should have been.

01:19:50.250 --> 01:19:52.875
But I have to look at her
not as who she is

01:19:52.876 --> 01:19:54.249
but as what she did,

01:19:54.250 --> 01:19:56.458
because what she did

01:19:56.459 --> 01:19:59.666
is not something
that I have the authority

01:19:59.667 --> 01:20:02.458
or the power
to excuse or forgive.

01:20:02.459 --> 01:20:05.291
I don\'t.

01:20:05.292 --> 01:20:06.500
I\'m not the dead person.

01:20:06.501 --> 01:20:07.917
My father is the dead person.

01:20:07.918 --> 01:20:09.998
He\'s not here to say
what you did was okay.

01:20:09.999 --> 01:20:12.500
He\'ll never be here
to say what she did was okay.

01:20:12.501 --> 01:20:14.917
So what she did was not okay.

01:20:14.918 --> 01:20:16.917
It was not ever okay.

01:20:16.918 --> 01:20:18.500
It will never be okay.

01:20:18.501 --> 01:20:19.998
It\'s not forgivable.

01:20:19.999 --> 01:20:21.500
Very simply.

01:20:21.501 --> 01:20:23.917
But that doesn\'t mean
that she can\'t then go on

01:20:23.918 --> 01:20:25.998
to be the person
that she hopes to become.

01:20:25.999 --> 01:20:28.082
And that...
That\'s a great goal.

01:20:28.083 --> 01:20:29.666
And I wish that for her.

01:20:29.667 --> 01:20:31.458
- Kathy, come here
and talk to us.

01:20:31.459 --> 01:20:34.041
- When I came out of prison,

01:20:34.042 --> 01:20:35.998
when I finished my sentence...

01:20:35.999 --> 01:20:36.999
- Do you have anything

01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:38.666
you want to say
to the Schroeder family?

01:20:38.667 --> 01:20:41.666
- A certain set of obligations
was satisfied.

01:20:41.667 --> 01:20:44.458
I had done what had to be done.

01:20:44.459 --> 01:20:47.666
There\'s not a wall there
that says,

01:20:47.667 --> 01:20:51.541
\"Okay, the past
didn\'t happen.\"

01:20:51.542 --> 01:20:54.333
The past did happen.

01:20:54.334 --> 01:20:57.124
And the suffering and the harm

01:20:57.125 --> 01:20:59.249
that came into people\'s lives

01:20:59.250 --> 01:21:01.998
lives on in their lives,

01:21:01.999 --> 01:21:07.416
and I am not unaware of that.

01:21:07.417 --> 01:21:09.208
It\'s just that I am no longer

01:21:09.209 --> 01:21:13.625
defined by that solely.

01:21:13.626 --> 01:21:18.416
Having been
so wrong-thinking

01:21:18.417 --> 01:21:23.833
and so caught up
in what mattered to me

01:21:23.834 --> 01:21:26.208
that I acted in a way

01:21:26.209 --> 01:21:31.998
that destroyed a life

01:21:31.999 --> 01:21:36.625
and left its mark of loss
on a whole community of people,

01:21:36.626 --> 01:21:39.583
that doesn\'t go away.

01:21:39.584 --> 01:21:43.166
- I understand her desire
not to be defined by a moment,

01:21:43.167 --> 01:21:45.998
by a single act
or by a single moment.

01:21:45.999 --> 01:21:47.998
I fully understand that.

01:21:47.999 --> 01:21:51.998
Regrettably, where my life
and Katherine\'s life intersect

01:21:51.999 --> 01:21:55.998
is unfortunately at that moment.

01:21:55.999 --> 01:21:58.625
So in my mind, it\'s inevitable.

01:21:58.626 --> 01:22:01.417
She will always be defined
by that moment.

01:22:06.999 --> 01:22:09.583
Narrator: Kathy Power
has taken a private journey

01:22:09.584 --> 01:22:11.833
of intense self-examination

01:22:11.834 --> 01:22:15.791
and has made a public
confession and expiation.

01:22:15.792 --> 01:22:19.625
On a far larger scale,

01:22:19.626 --> 01:22:21.958
there are some
who feel that our country

01:22:21.959 --> 01:22:23.750
has not yet understood

01:22:23.751 --> 01:22:25.998
and taken responsibility
publicly

01:22:25.999 --> 01:22:28.959
for the dimensions
of our actions.

01:22:31.375 --> 01:22:33.998
Across the black granite wall

01:22:33.999 --> 01:22:37.166
stretch the names
of 58,000 Americans

01:22:37.167 --> 01:22:39.791
who died in that war.

01:22:39.792 --> 01:22:43.250
3 million Vietnamese
and their neighbors also died.

01:22:47.334 --> 01:22:49.249
Veterans
and their families come,

01:22:49.250 --> 01:22:52.124
putting their hands
and their tears

01:22:52.125 --> 01:22:56.333
on the names of lost friends
and relatives.

01:22:56.334 --> 01:22:58.750
The Vietnam War
divided our country

01:22:58.751 --> 01:23:02.998
and provoked criticism
in many parts of the world.

01:23:02.999 --> 01:23:04.583
We are only at the beginning

01:23:04.584 --> 01:23:07.998
of a long-deferred
journey of introspection.

01:23:07.999 --> 01:23:10.833
The Vietnam wall
was a first step.

01:23:10.834 --> 01:23:14.998
It is a symbolic offering
of grief.

01:23:14.999 --> 01:23:16.998
It comes at a time when nations

01:23:16.999 --> 01:23:19.416
are beginning
to acknowledge and apologize

01:23:19.417 --> 01:23:22.998
for the harms
they have brought upon others.

01:23:22.999 --> 01:23:24.998
It is an extraordinary moment,

01:23:24.999 --> 01:23:28.999
unprecedented
in the lives of nations.