Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate (Part 2)

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This layered film by acclaimed filmmaker Helen Whitney addresses the act of forgiveness, which is a theological principle central to all major religions, but is more and more frequently leaving the church, synagogue and mosque and hitting the fractious streets. Inevitably its new role in the world raises serious and complex questions: why is forgiveness in the air today; what is its power, and what are its limitations and in some instances its dangers; has it been cheapened or deepened...or both? Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate seeks to shed insight into the light and darkness - the presence and absence - of forgiveness.

The film covers a wide range of stories from personal betrayal to genocide. Among them: the spontaneous demonstration of forgiveness following the 2006 shooting of Amish children in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania; a savage and senseless attack on two young female campers; the struggle of a '60s radical to cope with the consequences of a violent act of protest that turned deadly; the shattering of a family after the mother abandons her husband and children; the penitential journey of modern Germany, coming to terms with the Holocaust; and stories of survivors of the Rwandan genocide.

'This documentary, more than any that exist today, treats forgiveness as the complex phenomenon it is. It is strongest in examining the difficulties yet benefits of societal forgiveness--especially the limits of societal forgiveness where people have been grievously harmed. Forgiveness is costly, and in this movie forgiveness is always seen in context of responsibility and justice. If you are looking for a simple, feel-good, surface look at forgiving, this isn't it. If you want a thoughtful understanding, this movie will challenge you to grow.' Dr. Everett Worthington, Professor, Department of Psychology, Virginia Commonwealth University, Author, Forgiveness and Reconciliation: Theory and Application

'Forgiveness: A Time to Love and A Time to Hate raises in both personal and global contexts central questions that are inescapable for everyone who has been made to suffer--even to suffer unspeakably--and for everyone who has caused this suffering for others...Drawing on deeply moving, engaging, and frequently graphic case studies of persons, families, communities, countries, and international relations, the film successfully plumbs some of the deepest dimensions of human experience and successfully calls forth equally deep reflection. It does this by working within and respecting plural points of view, by refusing to preach or to indoctrinate, and by calling on individuals to take ultimate responsibility for the choices they make and for the choices they refrain from making. In short, it is excellent. As you can tell, I was impressed (beyond expectations) by the film. Thorough congratulations to those who created it.' John Stuhr, Professor, Philosophy and American Studies, Emory University, Author, Beyond Forgiveness

'This engrossing, provocative film raises significant questions about whether forgiveness is possible, who is entitled to forgive and who is entitled to forgiveness. In portraying stories from the most intimate to the most global, we are asked to grapple with our own assumptions and even prejudices - is a mother who leaves her family more in need of forgiveness than a father who does so? Can a religious community hold fast to its values only because secular law enforcement will keep the peace? Can there be a statute of limitations on repentance? This courageous and comprehensive examination of humanity's capacity for elevation and degradation provides great value for communities in both educational and religious settings to engage in reflection and soul-searching, robust and complex discussion, and authentic spiritual struggle.' Rabbi Patricia Karlin-Neumann and Reverend Joanne Sanders, Deans for Religious Life, Stanford University

'This is a very even-handed presentation of the challenge of individual, social and political responses to serious, intentional harm, from the emotional damage inflicted by individuals upon one another all the way to the radical evil of murder and wide-spread violence. Through a thoughtful choice of commentators and a gripping set of stories, the film explores forgiveness and related processes, showing how complex they are, and that they are often impossible to achieve, and why. Forgiveness is a very good tool for the university classroom that will also be of interest to the general public.' Dr. Elizabeth A. Cole, Senior Program Officer, The United States Institute of Peace

'Forgiveness is not just some nebulous, vague idea that one can easily dismiss. Without forgiveness there is no future. To forgive is the only way to change the world permanently. This film...enter[s] into a deep conversation as to how we can all accomplish this world-changing--world-affirming task.' Archbishop Desmond Tutu

'Forgiveness is difficult and complex. It can involve issues of justice and reparations and of course deep seated anger and the wish for revenge. Forgiveness is not a question of forgetting the wrong done; if you've forgotten what was done, there is nothing to forgive. Forgiveness involves refusing to allow yourself to give in to anger and the desire for revenge. This is why forgiveness ultimately brings peace...a powerful exploration of this most important subject.' His Holiness The Dalai Lama

'A useful set of case studies that are provocative and should stimulate interesting discussion. The cinematography is beautiful, providing not only a stimulating, but also very pleasing aesthetic, experience.' Frank Fincham, Eminent Scholar and Director, Family Institute, Florida State University

'Several real life studies offer road maps for those seeking to atone or offer forgiveness...In Forgiveness, Whitney travels the globe interviewing penitents and forgivers, People dealing with the aftermath of random acts of violence or war are offered as meditative examples of moving on, regardless of whether forgiveness is desired or possible.' Brittany Shoot, Sojourners Magazine

'A profoundly stirring work...The word 'powerful' does not begin to give adequate praise to this work. This is a grand enterprise treating the ethics of a series of fundamental human emotions and consequent behaviors. It skillfully balances the grim with the sanguine. With such a delicate topic, the filmmakers never once appear preachy or sensationalist. This brilliant work is strongly recommended to all who wish to stimulate discussion or even privately reflect on the place of forgiveness in the world.' Michael Coffta, Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania, Educational Media Reviews Online

'A fair-minded, thought-provoking documentary about a complex and elusive concept. Recommended.' Video Librarian

'Highly recommended.' The Midwest Book Review

'Outstanding...Highly recommended as a teaching resource in psychology and philosophy and their various subfields.' Library Journal

'Helen Whitney calls 'the spiritual landscape' her filmmaking beat, and that's on stark display in Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate....Forgiveness is a complex, elusive subject and Whitney...does not shy away from difficult aspects of the topic.' OregonLive.com

'Offer[s] a rare chance to shine a clear light on the question of forgiveness in all its complexities, horror and hope...Forgiveness will not be an exercise in easy answers or cheap grace...Leaves the viewer both daunted and emboldened. The need for forgiveness is far more complex, and yet even more central to the human existence than we may have thought.' Huffington Post

'A thought-provoking examination of both the promise and the limits of interpersonal reconciliation.' Catholic News Service

'There's really no easy generalizations about forgiveness, according to Whitney, and there is no one meaning--it is different for each person based on their own needs. For some people, it's conditional. For others, it's the height of therapy. And still, for others, it's a gift. I definitely recommend Whitney's film as one that will make you search deep inside and help you discover your own meaning of forgiveness and even think about what, if anything, is 'unforgiveable.'' Jacksonville.com

'There is a fascinating abundance of introspection and eloquence in Forgiveness, but no easy or cheap answers...Captivating, devoid of all the cheap nonsense we have grown accustomed to.' BostonHerald.com

'Mesmeric...An intelligent, stimulating treatment of a social change that affects everyone, either on a personal level or as a citizen of Planet Earth.' Technorati Film

'I thought it was going to be one of those boring religious treatises...It isn't that at all, but it is. It's that and much more, raising questions rather than providing answers, driving to the core of human morality in the area of personal and national failures, and calling on us to decide whether atonement is a valid response to horror.' Al Martinez, Daily News Los Angeles

'Forgiveness explores a virtue fraught with hope and danger...The stunning genius of this rich and poignant documentary is its careful probing, through narratives, of the limits, possibilities and reality of forgiveness...I will watch and re-watch this thoughtful and deep documentary, which raises new questions about a primordial human ache.' America, The National Catholic Weekly

'Deeply emotional in that it inevitably connects with anyone and everyone on some kind of level...Will no doubt leave you a little shaken...A Highly Recommended documentary as you really won't see anything else quite like it.' The World's Finest DVD Report

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Main credits

Whitney, Helen (Producer)
Whitney, Helen (Director)
Whitney, Helen (Screenwriter)
Winterburn, Ted (Film editor)
Sanderson, Paul G (Cinematographer)
Walker, Kathryn (Narrator)
Bilous, Edward (Composer)
DiBucci, Michelle (Composer)
Neiman, Adam (Composer)

Other credits

Director of photography, Paul G. Sanderson III; edited by Ted Winterburn; original music composed by Edward Bilous, Michelle Dibucci, Adam Neiman.

MARC Record See Worldcat record

Keywords

forgive, global reconciliation, genocide, 2006 shooting of Amish children, Nickel Mines, PA, Terri Jentz, bikecentennial, 60 radical, Kathy Power, Clare Schroeder, Germany, holocaust, Ronald Reagan, Bitburg, Rwandan genocide,- Paul Kagame, Thane Rosenbaum, Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete, Albie Sachs, Paul van Zyl, Jeff Jacoby,"Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate",Bullfrog Films

WEBVTT

00:00:03.209 --> 00:00:09.209
[haunting vocal music]

00:00:15.584 --> 00:00:17.374
female narrator:
Forgiveness is at the heart

00:00:17.375 --> 00:00:18.791
of some of the deepest hurts

00:00:18.792 --> 00:00:22.791
that can tear families
and nations apart.

00:00:22.792 --> 00:00:26.917
In time, forgiveness
may help rebuild them,

00:00:26.918 --> 00:00:28.500
and never more so

00:00:28.501 --> 00:00:32.625
than in this era
of forgiveness and apology.

00:00:32.626 --> 00:00:36.249
Incredible dramas
wrought by the new forgiveness

00:00:36.250 --> 00:00:42.917
reveal its power and its danger,

00:00:42.918 --> 00:00:44.500
for wounds not tended to

00:00:44.501 --> 00:00:46.208
can destroy countries,

00:00:46.209 --> 00:00:50.000
ravage families,
and stain generations to come.

00:00:52.417 --> 00:00:56.625
In one home,
in one American family,

00:00:56.626 --> 00:00:58.208
forgiveness offers hope

00:00:58.209 --> 00:01:02.416
for these intimate woundings
of the soul.

00:01:02.417 --> 00:01:05.208
A mother makes
a heartrending choice,

00:01:05.209 --> 00:01:08.625
and her children confront
choices beyond their years

00:01:08.626 --> 00:01:11.626
that will affect them
for years to come.

00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:16.625
- When my ex-wife told me

00:01:16.626 --> 00:01:18.998
that she was moving
a 1,000 miles away,

00:01:18.999 --> 00:01:22.998
I said, \"You can\'t
take the kids with you,\"

00:01:22.999 --> 00:01:24.833
and she said,

00:01:24.834 --> 00:01:26.998
\"I know.
I\'m not gonna take the kids.\"

00:01:26.999 --> 00:01:29.999
And I realized at that moment,
I was gonna be alone

00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:32.541
with an 11-year-old
and a 7-year-old,

00:01:32.542 --> 00:01:36.541
and that from that moment on,

00:01:36.542 --> 00:01:39.333
finding a way
to forgive her for doing it

00:01:39.334 --> 00:01:42.333
became a central question
in my life,

00:01:42.334 --> 00:01:44.750
and I never thought
that the word \"forgiveness\"

00:01:44.751 --> 00:01:48.167
would take so much importance
for me.

00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.082
- People get divorced,

00:01:51.083 --> 00:01:52.791
and, you know,
the one person moves,

00:01:52.792 --> 00:01:55.374
you know, 3 miles away
or 10 miles away.

00:01:55.375 --> 00:01:57.500
I moved 1,200 miles away,

00:01:57.501 --> 00:01:59.082
and I think that was in part

00:01:59.083 --> 00:02:03.708
because of the fear
that staying in any way,

00:02:03.709 --> 00:02:05.500
I couldn\'t have broken out.

00:02:05.501 --> 00:02:09.625
I couldn\'t do it without
this huge distance between me.

00:02:09.626 --> 00:02:11.998
I went back to school.
I studied nonstop.

00:02:11.999 --> 00:02:14.998
I mean, after I left,
six years later, I got a PhD.

00:02:14.999 --> 00:02:17.583
My brain was like a sponge.

00:02:17.584 --> 00:02:18.998
I did everything I could.

00:02:18.999 --> 00:02:21.666
I went to every study group,
every seminar, every class.

00:02:21.667 --> 00:02:22.998
I never missed a day.

00:02:22.999 --> 00:02:24.041
I studied every night.

00:02:24.042 --> 00:02:26.500
It was like...
I loved it.

00:02:26.501 --> 00:02:29.998
And I also knew that part of me
that felt elated,

00:02:29.999 --> 00:02:33.917
that felt this incredible sense
of freedom or exploration

00:02:33.918 --> 00:02:36.998
or being able to focus
on myself and my intellect,

00:02:36.999 --> 00:02:39.082
I knew that
that part had to live,

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and it\'s like, how could you
even feel elated at all,

00:02:43.918 --> 00:02:45.998
given that
you just left your kids?

00:02:45.999 --> 00:02:47.082
How is that even possible?

00:02:47.083 --> 00:02:48.708
What kind of a monster are you,

00:02:48.709 --> 00:02:51.417
that all you feel isn\'t pain?

00:02:54.375 --> 00:02:55.791
Narrator:
Liesbeth\'s decision

00:02:55.792 --> 00:02:57.374
to leave her husband
and children

00:02:57.375 --> 00:02:59.791
reverberated
through their lives,

00:02:59.792 --> 00:03:03.998
affecting each of them
profoundly.

00:03:03.999 --> 00:03:08.791
The scars remain even today.

00:03:08.792 --> 00:03:10.998
Memories press in on her

00:03:10.999 --> 00:03:14.167
and with them,
regret and longing.

00:03:16.542 --> 00:03:21.998
- Kolya was born during
my first year of grad school.

00:03:21.999 --> 00:03:23.082
And then Zoe was born,

00:03:23.083 --> 00:03:28.082
and that did add another level
of complexity.

00:03:28.083 --> 00:03:31.500
Liesbeth was the voice
of reason and intelligence

00:03:31.501 --> 00:03:33.082
about how to raise the kids

00:03:33.083 --> 00:03:34.917
and how not to raise the kids,

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and she took that responsibility
very seriously.

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- The responsibility,

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the feeling
of responsibility too,

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was overwhelming,

00:03:43.375 --> 00:03:47.166
and just this incredible
sense of loneliness.

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I think the loneliness...

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Like, you know,

00:03:50.375 --> 00:03:54.998
I think I could cry
when I talk about that.

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I actually started
getting sick a lot,

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physically sick.

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I also had panic attacks,

00:04:01.042 --> 00:04:03.249
and that\'s... you really feel
like you\'re gonna die.

00:04:03.250 --> 00:04:05.041
You feel like
you\'re having a heart attack.

00:04:05.042 --> 00:04:07.041
I mean, you have all
the symptoms of a heart attack.

00:04:07.042 --> 00:04:08.875
You know, I\'m feeling boxed in.

00:04:08.876 --> 00:04:10.249
I\'m feeling claustrophobic.

00:04:10.250 --> 00:04:11.250
So what does that mean?

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I need space.
I need air.

00:04:12.251 --> 00:04:13.666
Open the door.
Give me a window.

00:04:13.667 --> 00:04:14.998
Let me look out.

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I mean, anything that had to do
with something beyond,

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I guess, my little world.

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I felt so hemmed in.

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I just... I ended up like...

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When I think about it now,
I must have looked mad.

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I was on the bathroom floor,

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which was linoleum
but kind of cold,

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and I remember
just screaming, crying,

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and then not saying anything
at all,

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like, in an emotionally
numb state that was, like,

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I suppose as close
to suicidal as I\'ve gotten,

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because I knew, for me,

00:04:47.250 --> 00:04:50.458
it really meant
making this huge step about...

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About leaving.

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Yeah, I just remember thinking,

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\"Well, I don\'t know.

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\"Maybe dying is better than this

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\"because I cannot
make this choice.

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\"I just can\'t.

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How can I do this?\"

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For a long time,

00:05:03.626 --> 00:05:05.999
things on the surface
looked okay.

00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.999
We looked like
a pretty perfect family,

00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:10.999
even when things underneath
started breaking apart.

00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.416
And so I started taking
some classes and seminars,

00:05:14.417 --> 00:05:15.998
some of which were in Oregon

00:05:15.999 --> 00:05:19.333
through this process-oriented
psychology school.

00:05:19.334 --> 00:05:21.750
I think Dan and I
started to fight about it.

00:05:21.751 --> 00:05:23.958
It\'s like, \"Well, I want
to go away for this week

00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:25.124
to go to this seminar,\"

00:05:25.125 --> 00:05:26.998
which was happening in Oregon,

00:05:26.999 --> 00:05:29.541
and, \"Well, what do you mean
you want to go away?

00:05:29.542 --> 00:05:30.998
Where is this going?\"

00:05:30.999 --> 00:05:34.958
- When she really did move away,
I have to say,

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I think all of us couldn\'t...

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We just couldn\'t believe
that she was really gonna do it.

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You know,
certainly, you hear stories

00:05:41.751 --> 00:05:43.833
about men taking off,

00:05:43.834 --> 00:05:45.998
but there aren\'t
too many stories out there

00:05:45.999 --> 00:05:49.917
about women that
leave their kids behind.

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- I was angry
more than anything else

00:05:51.501 --> 00:05:53.166
at the beginning.

00:05:53.167 --> 00:05:56.583
Once I had learned
that it was my mom leaving,

00:05:56.584 --> 00:05:58.998
you know, my mom
that was causing this,

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there was definitely
a lot of animosity towards her.

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It\'s just this image
of Mom and Dad,

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you know, the two that
created you, being together,

00:06:08.999 --> 00:06:10.833
and when that gets ripped apart,

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it just shatters everything.

00:06:13.209 --> 00:06:15.208
- Other women
went and had part-time jobs

00:06:15.209 --> 00:06:17.625
and were home with their kids
and seemed to do fine.

00:06:17.626 --> 00:06:19.625
Other women stayed at home
all the time

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and didn\'t have panic attacks.

00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:23.875
Some women went to work
full-time and managed that.

00:06:23.876 --> 00:06:26.958
Like, how come
I couldn\'t manage that?

00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.958
- I still don\'t get it,
and that\'s okay.

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That was a really
important moment,

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and another really
important moment for me

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in this path to forgiveness

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was when I took on some
of the blame for this myself.

00:06:43.375 --> 00:06:44.998
And it\'s like,
\"Well, wait a second.

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Where was I in all this?\"

00:06:46.792 --> 00:06:49.166
And I think that
for this next step

00:06:49.167 --> 00:06:51.583
in the path to forgiveness
was to be able to say,

00:06:51.584 --> 00:06:54.875
\"You know, I had a role in this.

00:06:54.876 --> 00:06:58.124
You know,
I was keeping her down.\"

00:06:58.125 --> 00:06:59.541
- I mean, at some points,

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I would call her 17 times a day
and leave 17 messages

00:07:02.334 --> 00:07:03.958
if she didn\'t call me back,

00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:08.750
and I... you know, I just said,
\"Well, you\'re moving.

00:07:08.751 --> 00:07:10.166
Why can\'t I move with you?\"

00:07:10.167 --> 00:07:12.374
You know, and it just
kind of dawned on me,

00:07:12.375 --> 00:07:13.375
\"Well, she\'s moving.

00:07:13.376 --> 00:07:14.998
Hell, I can move too.\"

00:07:14.999 --> 00:07:15.999
- I think there was a way where

00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.998
I had to steel my own heart
to that,

00:07:18.999 --> 00:07:20.791
because I couldn\'t...

00:07:20.792 --> 00:07:22.583
I couldn\'t experience
at that time

00:07:22.584 --> 00:07:25.166
all of that and still stay here.

00:07:25.167 --> 00:07:27.166
I would have had to fly back.

00:07:27.167 --> 00:07:28.750
I would have
had to do something.

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- I was, like, eight years old,

00:07:29.999 --> 00:07:31.374
and I started cussing out
my mother,

00:07:31.375 --> 00:07:32.998
and I was just like,
\"You are such a bitch.\"

00:07:32.999 --> 00:07:34.166
And she was like, \"Hey!

00:07:34.167 --> 00:07:35.998
You are not allowed
to talk to me that way.\"

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And I think
then that\'s when this

00:07:37.792 --> 00:07:40.791
kind of boiling fire of hatred
kind of started,

00:07:40.792 --> 00:07:45.791
and me kind of using
that power to make her mad

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and back and forth.

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And I think that\'s when
it got really unhealthy for me.

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And so, yeah...

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- She wrote these
really dire poems,

00:08:06.626 --> 00:08:09.209
suicidal, I imagine.

00:08:11.501 --> 00:08:13.082
It was terrible, terrible.

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Pictures that
were quite disturbing...

00:08:15.999 --> 00:08:19.292
and really difficult.

00:08:22.417 --> 00:08:23.999
I remember having a...

00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.333
Who, at that time, was somebody
I knew in the community...

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Who watched her sometimes,

00:08:28.751 --> 00:08:29.998
you know,
helped take care of her

00:08:29.999 --> 00:08:31.750
when Dan had to go on a trip
or something,

00:08:31.751 --> 00:08:33.958
who called me one day and said,

00:08:33.959 --> 00:08:35.541
\"You know, you are working
with people

00:08:35.542 --> 00:08:36.958
\"who have a mental illness.

00:08:36.959 --> 00:08:39.249
You\'re creating a mental illness
in your kid.\"

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And I was like...

00:08:41.876 --> 00:08:44.876
I can\'t tell you
the devastation.

00:08:56.042 --> 00:09:00.458
I think of the unknown

00:09:00.459 --> 00:09:03.998
of what my actions
would psychologically...

00:09:03.999 --> 00:09:06.416
You know, you start studying
psychology, right?

00:09:06.417 --> 00:09:07.998
And, of course, your parenting

00:09:07.999 --> 00:09:10.208
and all the ways that...
Patterns

00:09:10.209 --> 00:09:11.998
and how you learn to love
or not love

00:09:11.999 --> 00:09:13.374
or all those things,

00:09:13.375 --> 00:09:15.166
I\'m becoming aware
of all those things,

00:09:15.167 --> 00:09:18.583
and then here I am creating,
for lack of a better word,

00:09:18.584 --> 00:09:22.583
these incredibly...
These gaping wounds

00:09:22.584 --> 00:09:25.583
that I am the agent of,

00:09:25.584 --> 00:09:28.584
you know, in my own kids.

00:09:33.792 --> 00:09:35.458
- For a while, it was just,

00:09:35.459 --> 00:09:38.958
like, really
just a broken heart.

00:09:38.959 --> 00:09:42.998
It was, like, I wasn\'t enough
to make her stay,

00:09:42.999 --> 00:09:47.917
and, you know, we weren\'t enough
to make her stay.

00:09:47.918 --> 00:09:49.249
You know?

00:09:49.250 --> 00:09:51.458
I would beg and \"please\"
all my might not to let her go,

00:09:51.459 --> 00:09:53.041
and she still left,

00:09:53.042 --> 00:09:54.666
and I think that\'s been
something hard

00:09:54.667 --> 00:09:55.875
for me to deal with,

00:09:55.876 --> 00:09:59.416
is that I, myself,
was not enough.

00:09:59.417 --> 00:10:01.625
You know, I guess
it\'d be too far to say

00:10:01.626 --> 00:10:03.998
the amount of love that
she had for me wasn\'t enough,

00:10:03.999 --> 00:10:08.625
but the thoughts towards me
weren\'t enough

00:10:08.626 --> 00:10:10.208
for her to override it and say,

00:10:10.209 --> 00:10:12.666
\"No, I need to be
with my kids.\"

00:10:12.667 --> 00:10:13.998
You know, she said,

00:10:13.999 --> 00:10:16.041
\"No, a career is more important
to me right now.\"

00:10:16.042 --> 00:10:17.666
And that\'s fine,

00:10:17.667 --> 00:10:19.875
but that\'s just an intense thing
to deal with, you know?

00:10:19.876 --> 00:10:23.249
Your mom chose work
and another life instead of you.

00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:24.458
She chose it.

00:10:24.459 --> 00:10:26.041
That was her decision,
and she chose it.

00:10:26.042 --> 00:10:27.416
She had a choice.

00:10:27.417 --> 00:10:29.625
- I had to say \"no\"
in a preservation

00:10:29.626 --> 00:10:32.998
of that other piece
that was still like an infant,

00:10:32.999 --> 00:10:35.625
that piece of myself
that felt like a baby,

00:10:35.626 --> 00:10:37.625
that hadn\'t yet blossomed.

00:10:37.626 --> 00:10:39.333
And I had to say \"no,\"

00:10:39.334 --> 00:10:41.124
and I just...
I so profoundly wished

00:10:41.125 --> 00:10:47.333
that I could have somehow
managed to say \"yes\"

00:10:47.334 --> 00:10:48.998
because it...

00:10:48.999 --> 00:10:54.625
I understand that, you know,
that was a second injury.

00:10:54.626 --> 00:10:57.666
There\'s the first one of leaving
and somehow a \"no,\"

00:10:57.667 --> 00:10:59.458
and then
there\'s the second \"no,\"

00:10:59.459 --> 00:11:02.875
and it\'s...
You know, I don\'t...

00:11:02.876 --> 00:11:03.998
It\'s not just double;

00:11:03.999 --> 00:11:06.666
it\'s exponential in my mind.

00:11:06.667 --> 00:11:10.166
And that...
I really regret that.

00:11:10.167 --> 00:11:14.333
- Given that the world

00:11:14.334 --> 00:11:17.750
does not in general
look really kindly

00:11:17.751 --> 00:11:20.124
upon women
who leave their children,

00:11:20.125 --> 00:11:22.124
and it\'s a pretty rare thing,

00:11:22.125 --> 00:11:27.998
and she understood the import
of what she was doing,

00:11:27.999 --> 00:11:30.333
that knowing that,
in a really perverse way,

00:11:30.334 --> 00:11:33.750
made me understand that
she really didn\'t have a choice.

00:11:33.751 --> 00:11:37.541
I mean, I see it as a choice,

00:11:37.542 --> 00:11:43.124
but somehow she didn\'t,
and that she chose to leave

00:11:43.125 --> 00:11:49.333
knowing to some extent
what she was doing

00:11:49.334 --> 00:11:52.625
made me understand
or realize or comprehend...

00:11:52.626 --> 00:11:54.416
I don\'t even know
what the word is...

00:11:54.417 --> 00:11:55.999
That what she was after
was something

00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.416
that was so strong
and so powerful

00:11:58.417 --> 00:12:02.833
that to not do it
was not an option.

00:12:02.834 --> 00:12:08.958
And somehow, in that
was a little... a little glimmer,

00:12:08.959 --> 00:12:11.998
a little opportunity
for forgiveness.

00:12:11.999 --> 00:12:15.583
Maybe it\'s just
temporary forgiveness

00:12:15.584 --> 00:12:18.166
or temporary understanding
that we come to,

00:12:18.167 --> 00:12:20.374
and then, you know,
it flitters away,

00:12:20.375 --> 00:12:22.374
and we got
to chase after it again

00:12:22.375 --> 00:12:24.166
and figure out
a way to get there,

00:12:24.167 --> 00:12:27.583
because it\'s
a pretty good place to get to.

00:12:27.584 --> 00:12:30.998
- She thinks she\'s done
her penance, I think.

00:12:30.999 --> 00:12:34.166
She\'s done her time.

00:12:34.167 --> 00:12:35.998
She\'s expressed to me,
said, you know,

00:12:35.999 --> 00:12:38.166
\"When is this gonna be over?

00:12:38.167 --> 00:12:41.041
When is this gonna stop
being over my head?\"

00:12:41.042 --> 00:12:43.458
So at times, I think she feels

00:12:43.459 --> 00:12:46.875
like she deserves
to be fully forgiven,

00:12:46.876 --> 00:12:52.124
and she wants to hear that
expressed by me.

00:12:52.125 --> 00:12:55.958
- I know she lives
in a lot of pain.

00:12:55.959 --> 00:13:01.124
She suffers because
of the path that she chose.

00:13:01.125 --> 00:13:03.998
- I don\'t know
if she\'s forgiven herself.

00:13:03.999 --> 00:13:05.291
Maybe that\'s part of the reason

00:13:05.292 --> 00:13:09.082
she so sort of openly
seeks forgiveness from us,

00:13:09.083 --> 00:13:11.998
is because she hasn\'t
entirely forgiven herself.

00:13:11.999 --> 00:13:16.583
- I think I\'ve been
afraid to ask, really,

00:13:16.584 --> 00:13:21.998
because I don\'t want to hear
the answer, you know, in a way.

00:13:21.999 --> 00:13:25.791
It\'s good for me
to think about that, actually.

00:13:25.792 --> 00:13:27.791
Yeah, that it\'s fear, really,

00:13:27.792 --> 00:13:30.791
that\'s kept me from doing it.

00:13:30.792 --> 00:13:31.998
Yeah, because...

00:13:31.999 --> 00:13:35.584
And maybe part of that
is a process of...

00:13:41.375 --> 00:13:44.375
Not yet feeling I deserve it.

00:13:47.375 --> 00:13:49.583
I think that\'s it.

00:13:49.584 --> 00:13:52.249
I think...

00:13:52.250 --> 00:13:54.250
Sorry.

00:14:00.292 --> 00:14:05.708
I think the moment where
I can completely forgive myself,

00:14:05.709 --> 00:14:09.998
that\'s probably when
I can really ask for it.

00:14:09.999 --> 00:14:13.998
And I don\'t know that...
I\'m not there yet.

00:14:13.999 --> 00:14:15.917
And so maybe that\'s why,

00:14:15.918 --> 00:14:18.998
other than that one brief
sort of acknowledgement to Kolya

00:14:18.999 --> 00:14:20.708
that had no excuses in it,

00:14:20.709 --> 00:14:24.708
\'cause I know, up until then,
I always had some excuse:

00:14:24.709 --> 00:14:26.291
\"I had to do it.
I was gonna die.

00:14:26.292 --> 00:14:27.998
I was this.
I was that.\"

00:14:27.999 --> 00:14:29.541
And at some point, you know,

00:14:29.542 --> 00:14:30.998
I think somebody
needs to just hear,

00:14:30.999 --> 00:14:32.917
\"I did this thing.

00:14:32.918 --> 00:14:35.082
\"It was... it had
a profound effect on you.

00:14:35.083 --> 00:14:40.500
\"It caused you a lot of pain,
and I\'m sorry,

00:14:40.501 --> 00:14:42.708
\"and I want to be held
accountable.

00:14:42.709 --> 00:14:44.082
\"I want to be accountable,

00:14:44.083 --> 00:14:47.500
\"and I want to make amends
if it\'s...

00:14:47.501 --> 00:14:50.500
If you\'ll let me.\"

00:14:50.501 --> 00:14:53.250
That\'s kind of how it should go.

00:14:56.834 --> 00:14:58.416
- I want to be careful

00:14:58.417 --> 00:15:02.833
about how I go about this
forgiveness part in my life

00:15:02.834 --> 00:15:05.041
\'cause this has been one of
the most hurtful things that\'s...

00:15:05.042 --> 00:15:09.998
You know, and damaging things
that\'s ever happened to me.

00:15:09.999 --> 00:15:12.041
And I feel like
when the day does come,

00:15:12.042 --> 00:15:13.998
it\'s not gonna be that,

00:15:13.999 --> 00:15:16.041
\"Hey, Mom, I forgot to tell you.

00:15:16.042 --> 00:15:18.666
I forgive you
for leaving us.\"

00:15:18.667 --> 00:15:21.875
You know, I think it\'s gonna
be something more of a...

00:15:21.876 --> 00:15:26.082
of her knowing
that I respect her decision.

00:15:26.083 --> 00:15:27.708
And I feel like
I am kind of ready

00:15:27.709 --> 00:15:31.083
to have that conversation
with her.

00:15:41.876 --> 00:15:43.875
- To her?

00:15:43.876 --> 00:15:45.041
I don\'t know why
I wouldn\'t say it

00:15:45.042 --> 00:15:46.042
exactly like this to Kolya

00:15:46.043 --> 00:15:47.291
\'cause it\'s the same thing,

00:15:47.292 --> 00:15:49.082
but to her, I would say,
\"Will you... will you...

00:15:49.083 --> 00:15:50.917
\"will you trust me again?

00:15:50.918 --> 00:15:55.791
\"Will you allow yourself
to trust me and to love me?

00:15:55.792 --> 00:15:59.291
So, you know,
allow that vulnerability?\"

00:15:59.292 --> 00:16:00.917
Of course,
there\'s always going to be

00:16:00.918 --> 00:16:02.708
that fear of abandonment
in the background,

00:16:02.709 --> 00:16:03.917
but I would say to her,

00:16:03.918 --> 00:16:04.998
\"Will you allow yourself

00:16:04.999 --> 00:16:08.998
\"to trust me again
and to let me in?

00:16:08.999 --> 00:16:11.792
And know that I won\'t\"...

00:16:22.999 --> 00:16:24.500
And for both of them,

00:16:24.501 --> 00:16:26.998
but to Zoe;
I\'ll say it to Zoe first...

00:16:26.999 --> 00:16:30.083
\"to know that
I won\'t abandon you again?\"

00:16:33.375 --> 00:16:37.166
I won\'t.

00:16:37.167 --> 00:16:40.166
And I could say
the same thing to Kolya.

00:16:40.167 --> 00:16:41.374
He\'s an adult.

00:16:41.375 --> 00:16:43.166
It feels different
to say it to him,

00:16:43.167 --> 00:16:46.124
but I think it\'s, you know,

00:16:46.125 --> 00:16:49.333
it is the same thing,
that, \"I won\'t.

00:16:49.334 --> 00:16:51.834
I won\'t do that again.\"

00:16:55.999 --> 00:16:57.998
- You know, I don\'t know how

00:16:57.999 --> 00:17:01.998
they\'ll come to forgive her

00:17:01.999 --> 00:17:03.998
or if they will.

00:17:03.999 --> 00:17:06.791
I just don\'t...
I don\'t know.

00:17:06.792 --> 00:17:13.249
In some ways,
I don\'t think it\'s possible.

00:17:13.250 --> 00:17:15.041
In some ways, it\'s not possible.

00:17:15.042 --> 00:17:16.875
In some ways,
it will be possible.

00:17:16.876 --> 00:17:19.249
So I think
it\'s gonna be something

00:17:19.250 --> 00:17:20.458
they need to work with.

00:17:20.459 --> 00:17:22.666
And they\'ll need
to come to the place,

00:17:22.667 --> 00:17:24.458
whether they\'re fighting
with their spouse

00:17:24.459 --> 00:17:28.998
or, you know, trying...
Coming out of another...

00:17:28.999 --> 00:17:31.249
Yet another failed relationship
where they say,

00:17:31.250 --> 00:17:35.041
\"You know what?
I better figure this out.\"

00:17:35.042 --> 00:17:36.124
I do too.

00:17:36.125 --> 00:17:37.998
I mean, I\'ve got
my own trust issues.

00:17:37.999 --> 00:17:40.999
I put all my eggs in one basket,

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.208
and she stepped on the basket.

00:17:45.209 --> 00:17:48.458
And that was devastating to me,

00:17:48.459 --> 00:17:52.416
and it\'s been devastating to me

00:17:52.417 --> 00:17:54.999
as I try to pick up the pieces

00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.625
and find relationships
that work for me.

00:17:59.626 --> 00:18:02.625
It\'s not an easy thing to do.

00:18:02.626 --> 00:18:05.999
I mean, for anybody who has
said, \"Till death do they part,\"

00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.416
and they meant it, you know,

00:18:08.417 --> 00:18:09.791
it\'s kind of hard to go,

00:18:09.792 --> 00:18:12.998
\"Well, you know,
I love you now, I think.

00:18:12.999 --> 00:18:14.998
You know, and but...\"

00:18:14.999 --> 00:18:16.208
But.

00:18:16.209 --> 00:18:17.998
There\'s always this \"but\"
hanging there,

00:18:17.999 --> 00:18:19.208
and I never had the \"but.\"

00:18:19.209 --> 00:18:22.416
And I think the kids
have that \"but\" hanging there.

00:18:22.417 --> 00:18:24.833
I mean, \"[...], if your own mama
don\'t love you,\"

00:18:24.834 --> 00:18:27.833
you know...

00:18:27.834 --> 00:18:29.625
And it\'s not like
she didn\'t love them,

00:18:29.626 --> 00:18:31.833
and I think somewhere in there,

00:18:31.834 --> 00:18:35.625
maybe that\'s... that\'s their...
That\'s their path,

00:18:35.626 --> 00:18:38.998
is to find out, to hear from her

00:18:38.999 --> 00:18:41.998
and understand from her
that she does love them,

00:18:41.999 --> 00:18:44.998
and she always has,

00:18:44.999 --> 00:18:47.998
and that love
just didn\'t find expression

00:18:47.999 --> 00:18:53.999
in raising them
from the ages of 11 and 7.

00:18:57.999 --> 00:18:59.666
Narrator:
Urgent as these issues are

00:18:59.667 --> 00:19:02.041
of healing for a single family,

00:19:02.042 --> 00:19:03.875
they are even more so

00:19:03.876 --> 00:19:07.875
for nations embroiled
in war and genocide.

00:19:07.876 --> 00:19:10.041
And there is a new understanding

00:19:10.042 --> 00:19:11.458
that a country will not be able

00:19:11.459 --> 00:19:13.666
to successfully
move into the future

00:19:13.667 --> 00:19:17.666
without dealing with
the dark corners of its past.

00:19:17.667 --> 00:19:20.998
[man singing
in foreign language]

00:19:20.999 --> 00:19:24.458
Forgiveness, reconciliation,
and apology,

00:19:24.459 --> 00:19:26.249
all close relatives,

00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:28.249
have always played
an essential role

00:19:28.250 --> 00:19:31.249
in the lives of individuals,

00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:33.041
but in the last 30 years,

00:19:33.042 --> 00:19:36.041
they have migrated
into the political realm,

00:19:36.042 --> 00:19:39.750
into the very lives of nations.

00:19:39.751 --> 00:19:42.958
In Poland, President Kwasniewski

00:19:42.959 --> 00:19:46.249
apologized
to the Jews of Poland.

00:19:46.250 --> 00:19:49.082
He formally admitted
that Poles had massacred

00:19:49.083 --> 00:19:50.998
hundreds of
their Jewish neighbors

00:19:50.999 --> 00:19:55.791
in the small town
of Jedwabne in 1941.

00:19:55.792 --> 00:19:57.998
The emotional ceremony
took place

00:19:57.999 --> 00:19:59.374
at the site of the barn

00:19:59.375 --> 00:20:02.333
where Jedwabne\'s Jews
had been locked inside

00:20:02.334 --> 00:20:07.541
and burned alive.

00:20:07.542 --> 00:20:10.958
At the 60th anniversary
of the end of World War II,

00:20:10.959 --> 00:20:15.124
Japan\'s prime minister
Junichiro Koizumi

00:20:15.125 --> 00:20:17.998
apologized for
the great damage and pain

00:20:17.999 --> 00:20:21.998
Japan had inflicted on
their neighbors during the war.

00:20:21.999 --> 00:20:25.625
The Emperor expressed
his sincere condolences.

00:20:25.626 --> 00:20:28.041
- [speaking Japanese]

00:20:28.042 --> 00:20:31.998
narrator: There has been
an extraordinary sea change,

00:20:31.999 --> 00:20:34.291
a shift in consciousness.

00:20:34.292 --> 00:20:36.500
Historically, strong nations

00:20:36.501 --> 00:20:38.708
neither acknowledged
the harm they did

00:20:38.709 --> 00:20:41.208
nor apologized for it.

00:20:41.209 --> 00:20:44.625
But after World War II
and the Nuremberg trials,

00:20:44.626 --> 00:20:46.998
this slowly began to change.

00:20:46.999 --> 00:20:48.416
For the first time,

00:20:48.417 --> 00:20:50.416
individuals
were held accountable

00:20:50.417 --> 00:20:55.082
for crimes against humanity.

00:20:55.083 --> 00:20:58.708
- One of the things that
we learned after Nuremberg,

00:20:58.709 --> 00:21:03.208
that it\'s not enough simply
to punish and to enter judgment.

00:21:03.209 --> 00:21:06.416
That there also
has to be an aftermath,

00:21:06.417 --> 00:21:09.999
and the aftermath
has to include apologies,

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.374
acknowledgments,
the language of repair.

00:21:14.375 --> 00:21:15.791
We know most nations suffer

00:21:15.792 --> 00:21:18.166
from an enormous amount
of denial

00:21:18.167 --> 00:21:21.041
and forgetfulness and untruth,

00:21:21.042 --> 00:21:22.998
but there isn\'t any question

00:21:22.999 --> 00:21:25.458
that we\'re living
in a very different age

00:21:25.459 --> 00:21:28.124
where nations own up
to their past,

00:21:28.125 --> 00:21:32.625
nations accept collective guilt
and responsibility;

00:21:32.626 --> 00:21:35.750
nations acknowledge
what they\'ve done;

00:21:35.751 --> 00:21:38.333
nations memorialize
what they\'ve done;

00:21:38.334 --> 00:21:43.958
they undertake gestures
of restitution and reparation

00:21:43.959 --> 00:21:45.998
and seeking forgiveness
for what they\'ve done.

00:21:45.999 --> 00:21:48.541
This is all part
of the new ethic of our age,

00:21:48.542 --> 00:21:50.998
and this is very,
very different.

00:21:50.999 --> 00:21:53.249
- [speaking Spanish]

00:21:53.250 --> 00:21:55.041
narrator:
In the last 30 years,

00:21:55.042 --> 00:21:58.166
there has been a remarkable
new development.

00:21:58.167 --> 00:22:01.416
In Latin America and throughout
the non-Western world,

00:22:01.417 --> 00:22:04.249
societies emerging
from violent conflict

00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:05.998
have created commissions

00:22:05.999 --> 00:22:08.917
searching for the truths
of what occurred.

00:22:08.918 --> 00:22:10.958
They ask painful questions

00:22:10.959 --> 00:22:15.250
about how best to deal
with the demons from their past.

00:22:16.709 --> 00:22:17.998
- [speaking native language]

00:22:17.999 --> 00:22:19.998
male translator:
And they killed my father.

00:22:19.999 --> 00:22:23.999
They killed my mother
and all my relatives.

00:22:25.876 --> 00:22:29.875
I saw them
cut my father\'s throat.

00:22:29.876 --> 00:22:32.333
And they gave me
my father\'s blood to drink.

00:22:32.334 --> 00:22:34.750
Narrator: For many,

00:22:34.751 --> 00:22:38.708
forgiveness for a mass atrocity
is an obscenity.

00:22:38.709 --> 00:22:41.625
Critics worry
that public forgiveness

00:22:41.626 --> 00:22:42.875
can be shallow.

00:22:42.876 --> 00:22:46.291
It can invite repentance
that isn\'t genuine.

00:22:46.292 --> 00:22:49.917
Criminals can go free.

00:22:49.918 --> 00:22:53.166
Joshua Blahyi
was an infamous rebel leader

00:22:53.167 --> 00:22:57.374
during the first Liberian
civil war of the 1990s.

00:22:57.375 --> 00:23:00.998
When he testified before
the Liberian Truth Commission,

00:23:00.999 --> 00:23:03.583
he confessed to human sacrifice,

00:23:03.584 --> 00:23:06.583
draining blood
of living victims,

00:23:06.584 --> 00:23:09.416
eating the hearts of children
before battle.

00:23:09.417 --> 00:23:15.333
- \"The children were alive
while I carried out the ritual.\"

00:23:15.334 --> 00:23:17.334
Is that correct?

00:23:19.584 --> 00:23:25.791
- I want to say sorry
to this nation.

00:23:25.792 --> 00:23:28.459
I want to say sorry.

00:23:39.751 --> 00:23:41.541
Narrator: The South African

00:23:41.542 --> 00:23:43.458
Truth and Reconciliation
Commission

00:23:43.459 --> 00:23:46.249
also brought
the language of forgiveness

00:23:46.250 --> 00:23:48.249
into a public forum.

00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:50.124
It was one
of the most innovative,

00:23:50.125 --> 00:23:52.208
morally ambitious attempts

00:23:52.209 --> 00:23:56.291
to deal with the nation\'s
brutal past in the 20th century.

00:23:56.292 --> 00:24:00.917
- Our objective
is to find out the truth

00:24:00.918 --> 00:24:06.082
in order to assist in
the process of healing our land.

00:24:06.083 --> 00:24:07.999
Narrator: Propelled
by its charismatic leaders

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.998
President Nelson Mandela
and Bishop Desmond Tutu,

00:24:11.999 --> 00:24:14.998
forgiveness shaped
the commission\'s narrative arc

00:24:14.999 --> 00:24:18.416
as well as its search
for national reconciliation.

00:24:18.417 --> 00:24:21.416
- I would like to meet that man

00:24:21.417 --> 00:24:25.833
that threw the grenade
in an attitude of forgiveness

00:24:25.834 --> 00:24:28.124
and hope that
he could forgive me too.

00:24:28.125 --> 00:24:30.333
- Thousands
of black South Africans

00:24:30.334 --> 00:24:32.541
began to tell their stories.

00:24:32.542 --> 00:24:35.541
- They suffocated me
by pulling a mask over my face.

00:24:35.542 --> 00:24:39.958
- We heard the words of people
who themselves were tortured.

00:24:39.959 --> 00:24:43.333
And we heard the voices
and accounts of the people

00:24:43.334 --> 00:24:46.333
who did the killing
and the torturing.

00:24:46.334 --> 00:24:50.333
- I remember Sergeant Benzien.

00:24:50.334 --> 00:24:51.999
We all saw it on television.

00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.750
The whole nation
participated in that drama.

00:24:55.751 --> 00:24:59.583
\"Sergeant,\" the person
he tortured said,

00:24:59.584 --> 00:25:01.998
\"Just show us
how you put the wet bag

00:25:01.999 --> 00:25:05.958
\"over our heads and smothered us

00:25:05.959 --> 00:25:08.166
so that we felt
that we were drowning.\"

00:25:08.167 --> 00:25:09.998
And somebody lay on the floor,

00:25:09.999 --> 00:25:12.333
and it was demonstrated.

00:25:12.334 --> 00:25:16.998
- What kind of man
that uses a method

00:25:16.999 --> 00:25:19.333
like this one of the wet bag

00:25:19.334 --> 00:25:23.958
to people,
to other human beings,

00:25:23.959 --> 00:25:27.998
and listening to those
moans and cries and groans

00:25:27.999 --> 00:25:32.998
and taking each of those people
very near to their deaths...

00:25:32.999 --> 00:25:36.249
What kind of man are you?

00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:40.875
What kind of man is that?

00:25:40.876 --> 00:25:44.458
- I think it\'s not helpful
to see the Truth Commission

00:25:44.459 --> 00:25:49.458
as the forum for individual acts
of reconciliation.

00:25:49.459 --> 00:25:51.416
The number of cases
where that led

00:25:51.417 --> 00:25:55.917
to a deep and lasting
and transformative

00:25:55.918 --> 00:25:57.708
act of reconciliation

00:25:57.709 --> 00:26:00.291
was a tiny, minuscule
percentage.

00:26:00.292 --> 00:26:02.291
What it\'s useful
to think of it as

00:26:02.292 --> 00:26:05.708
is the symbolic venue

00:26:05.709 --> 00:26:08.708
in which the nation could
have a conversation with itself

00:26:08.709 --> 00:26:11.583
about what we did to each other

00:26:11.584 --> 00:26:13.998
and how we ought
to understand that,

00:26:13.999 --> 00:26:17.583
both in factual terms
and in moral terms,

00:26:17.584 --> 00:26:21.791
and that in turn provides
very, very useful fodder

00:26:21.792 --> 00:26:25.917
for the deeper, more intimate,
more personal moments

00:26:25.918 --> 00:26:29.291
of reconciliation that
must always follow afterwards.

00:26:29.292 --> 00:26:32.958
Narrator: Western nations,
including America,

00:26:32.959 --> 00:26:36.958
also struggle with the harms
they have brought upon others.

00:26:36.959 --> 00:26:39.333
Public apology
has become their version

00:26:39.334 --> 00:26:41.583
of the Truth Commission.

00:26:41.584 --> 00:26:45.583
Great national apologies
require not only will

00:26:45.584 --> 00:26:47.333
but humility.

00:26:47.334 --> 00:26:53.000
And sometimes the most powerful
apology is unspoken.

00:26:56.999 --> 00:27:00.625
- In 1970, Chancellor
Willy Brandt from West Germany

00:27:00.626 --> 00:27:03.998
visited the Warsaw Ghetto
Uprising Memorial

00:27:03.999 --> 00:27:05.750
in Warsaw, Poland.

00:27:05.751 --> 00:27:08.958
And in a very spontaneous
gesture,

00:27:08.959 --> 00:27:13.750
he fell to his knees,
overwhelmed.

00:27:13.751 --> 00:27:17.998
- Many people said,
\"How could he do this?\"

00:27:17.999 --> 00:27:22.041
- The nation of Poland
was immobilized by this.

00:27:22.042 --> 00:27:25.875
Jews around the world
were shocked by it.

00:27:25.876 --> 00:27:28.666
The German people themselves
debated this.

00:27:28.667 --> 00:27:31.041
Should he have knelt down?

00:27:31.042 --> 00:27:33.791
It\'s the ultimate begging.

00:27:33.792 --> 00:27:36.583
It\'s an expression of penitence

00:27:36.584 --> 00:27:40.166
on behalf of the collective
of the German people,

00:27:40.167 --> 00:27:42.791
that he was deeply
and profoundly aware

00:27:42.792 --> 00:27:46.374
of the enormity
of what was done.

00:27:46.375 --> 00:27:49.998
It\'s an astonishing gesture.

00:27:49.999 --> 00:27:51.998
Chancellor Willy Brandt

00:27:51.999 --> 00:27:55.998
dignified the entire experience
of apologies

00:27:55.999 --> 00:27:59.750
in a national, global way.

00:27:59.751 --> 00:28:02.541
Narrator: Some historians
describe Brandt\'s gesture

00:28:02.542 --> 00:28:06.917
as the turning point
in German-Polish relations

00:28:06.918 --> 00:28:10.500
and perhaps the beginning
of Germany\'s public atonement

00:28:10.501 --> 00:28:12.501
for the Holocaust.

00:28:21.999 --> 00:28:25.041
- You can\'t forget such a thing

00:28:25.042 --> 00:28:27.998
which has happened in Germany.

00:28:27.999 --> 00:28:35.458
- Germany has been unique
historically in doing penance.

00:28:35.459 --> 00:28:41.374
No other country in the world
has devoted so much time,

00:28:41.375 --> 00:28:42.998
money, and attention

00:28:42.999 --> 00:28:47.584
to commemorating
the worst parts of its history.

00:28:49.459 --> 00:28:55.998
- It is my duty not to forget.

00:28:55.999 --> 00:28:59.583
- I still don\'t understand it,

00:28:59.584 --> 00:29:01.583
the validity, the legality,

00:29:01.584 --> 00:29:06.166
and the ways of killing
an entire people.

00:29:06.167 --> 00:29:08.583
- There should be an end

00:29:08.584 --> 00:29:14.291
to all this talking
about Nazi guilt.

00:29:14.292 --> 00:29:17.998
- The younger generation,
there is a Holocaust fatigue,

00:29:17.999 --> 00:29:21.291
and they say,
\"Enough already.\"

00:29:21.292 --> 00:29:25.500
- We shouldn\'t ask
for reconciliation

00:29:25.501 --> 00:29:29.291
before we repent.

00:29:29.292 --> 00:29:30.998
- I think, actually, the Germans

00:29:30.999 --> 00:29:33.291
are trying that, as a nation,

00:29:33.292 --> 00:29:36.918
to work on being forgiven.

00:29:40.292 --> 00:29:46.291
I think the Holocaust has
shaped, actually, their soul,

00:29:46.292 --> 00:29:47.998
and I do believe that a nation

00:29:47.999 --> 00:29:52.917
can have a type
of collective soul.

00:29:52.918 --> 00:29:55.998
And I think it has injured
their souls very much,

00:29:55.999 --> 00:29:58.999
much more than
the Germans ever thought.

00:30:01.250 --> 00:30:04.875
Something of the souls
of the Germans

00:30:04.876 --> 00:30:07.875
went up in smoke
with the chimneys of Auschwitz,

00:30:07.876 --> 00:30:10.292
something irretrievable.

00:30:13.501 --> 00:30:16.917
- I have never,
ever seen one of them,

00:30:16.918 --> 00:30:19.082
the real murderers,
the real perpetrators,

00:30:19.083 --> 00:30:24.917
publicly apologize
and asking for forgiveness.

00:30:24.918 --> 00:30:28.501
I mean, how can we ask
about collective forgiveness?

00:30:33.918 --> 00:30:35.374
Narrator:
Germany is a country

00:30:35.375 --> 00:30:37.333
that plunged Europe
and the world

00:30:37.334 --> 00:30:39.750
into two world wars

00:30:39.751 --> 00:30:43.124
causing the deaths
of 50 million people.

00:30:43.125 --> 00:30:46.833
It has the Holocaust
in its history.

00:30:46.834 --> 00:30:49.208
It is also a country
that has embarked

00:30:49.209 --> 00:30:53.998
on a long penitential journey.

00:30:53.999 --> 00:30:56.998
The process of coming to terms
with its history

00:30:56.999 --> 00:30:58.998
has been excruciating,

00:30:58.999 --> 00:31:01.041
not always voluntary,

00:31:01.042 --> 00:31:03.542
and it is not over.

00:31:05.292 --> 00:31:07.291
It began in denial

00:31:07.292 --> 00:31:11.917
in the frozen silence
immediately after the war.

00:31:11.918 --> 00:31:15.750
In public, no member
of the ruling Nazi elite

00:31:15.751 --> 00:31:19.750
fully acknowledged the evil
of what they had done.

00:31:19.751 --> 00:31:23.998
But the past would not go away.

00:31:23.999 --> 00:31:27.583
At home, the questions
asked by children...

00:31:27.584 --> 00:31:29.999
\"What did you do
in the war?\"...

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.625
Hung in the air unanswered.

00:31:33.626 --> 00:31:36.416
It was a silence
that ruptured families,

00:31:36.417 --> 00:31:38.999
sometimes permanently.

00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:43.998
- There wasn\'t the slightest
form of a penitential journey.

00:31:43.999 --> 00:31:48.500
I\'m living with an example
of someone who did not repent.

00:31:48.501 --> 00:31:51.500
She did, you know, the contrary.

00:31:51.501 --> 00:31:54.416
My grandmother, Winifred,

00:31:54.417 --> 00:32:00.416
glorified, until she died,
publicly Adolf Hitler

00:32:00.417 --> 00:32:03.998
as the savior of Germany.

00:32:03.999 --> 00:32:07.458
Hitler was sitting on our table
all the time

00:32:07.459 --> 00:32:10.333
with Winifred Wagner,
my grandmother,

00:32:10.334 --> 00:32:11.958
glorifying.

00:32:11.959 --> 00:32:16.333
This was the atmosphere
in which I grew up.

00:32:16.334 --> 00:32:18.999
- We were basically trained
not to ask questions,

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:23.208
you know, so that
was the best trick.

00:32:23.209 --> 00:32:25.833
And it worked too,
except for some people.

00:32:25.834 --> 00:32:29.249
You know, it didn\'t work forever
with me, obviously.

00:32:29.250 --> 00:32:33.875
I asked very many
old Nazis and non-Nazis

00:32:33.876 --> 00:32:36.666
when I did research for my book,

00:32:36.667 --> 00:32:39.750
\"Were you aware
that your children

00:32:39.751 --> 00:32:42.750
\"will ever have anything to do
with the past,

00:32:42.751 --> 00:32:45.291
with your past you created,
and suffer from it?\"

00:32:45.292 --> 00:32:47.041
And they all said, \"No.\"

00:32:47.042 --> 00:32:49.875
They thought, the war is over,

00:32:49.876 --> 00:32:51.249
and after a few years,

00:32:51.250 --> 00:32:56.541
it\'s like everything
is forgotten.

00:32:56.542 --> 00:32:58.999
Oh, were they wrong.
You know?

00:33:02.125 --> 00:33:03.625
Narrator:
As the decades passed,

00:33:03.626 --> 00:33:05.998
the denials of
the first generation

00:33:05.999 --> 00:33:09.708
would give way to discussions
of their Nazi past.

00:33:09.709 --> 00:33:13.666
Germans\' absorption
in their own pain and loss

00:33:13.667 --> 00:33:16.041
would deepen
into an appreciation

00:33:16.042 --> 00:33:20.666
of the far greater suffering
imposed by Nazi Germany.

00:33:20.667 --> 00:33:22.666
Their expressions
of formal regret

00:33:22.667 --> 00:33:24.998
for the horrific crimes
of their country

00:33:24.999 --> 00:33:27.208
would turn into
monetary reparations

00:33:27.209 --> 00:33:29.999
to survivors
and to the state of Israel

00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.917
totaling $70 billion.

00:33:34.918 --> 00:33:36.291
But for the small number of Jews

00:33:36.292 --> 00:33:38.917
who returned to Germany
after the war,

00:33:38.918 --> 00:33:41.082
life could be difficult.

00:33:41.083 --> 00:33:44.500
Bigotry persisted
in small enclaves.

00:33:44.501 --> 00:33:45.998
Forgiveness was rare,

00:33:45.999 --> 00:33:49.124
and when offered, shocking.

00:33:49.125 --> 00:33:55.625
- I remember one encounter
with a Jewish survivor

00:33:55.626 --> 00:33:58.208
who lived in the outskirts
of my hometown.

00:33:58.209 --> 00:34:01.208
I interviewed him
because he was a survivor

00:34:01.209 --> 00:34:04.998
of a concentration camp
I wrote a book about.

00:34:04.999 --> 00:34:07.208
And I wanted to learn

00:34:07.209 --> 00:34:10.416
what it was like
for him afterwards

00:34:10.417 --> 00:34:12.998
to live with that past

00:34:12.999 --> 00:34:17.999
in the community
where he knew the perpetrators.

00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.416
He had married a local woman

00:34:20.417 --> 00:34:22.625
and was surrounded by the people

00:34:22.626 --> 00:34:27.416
who had either
chosen not to help

00:34:27.417 --> 00:34:32.458
or had made some profits
from this camp.

00:34:32.459 --> 00:34:33.791
For decades,

00:34:33.792 --> 00:34:37.791
he heard the same hatred-filled,
anti-Jewish remarks

00:34:37.792 --> 00:34:39.998
from the same people,

00:34:39.999 --> 00:34:42.583
and he realized at some point...

00:34:42.584 --> 00:34:46.583
And it hurt him and kept
hurting him all those years,

00:34:46.584 --> 00:34:50.998
until finally, a few years ago,
in the \'80s,

00:34:50.999 --> 00:34:56.999
he did realize
he will not change these people.

00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:01.416
If he wants to be able to live

00:35:01.417 --> 00:35:04.998
without committing suicide
over that,

00:35:04.999 --> 00:35:11.583
if he, for his own life,
has to move on,

00:35:11.584 --> 00:35:13.791
his only way to do it

00:35:13.792 --> 00:35:18.124
is if he forgives these people.

00:35:18.125 --> 00:35:21.666
I was staring at him
in a, I\'m sure, blank stare.

00:35:21.667 --> 00:35:23.458
How this could happen,

00:35:23.459 --> 00:35:25.875
and how he reached
such a conclusion?

00:35:25.876 --> 00:35:28.500
And he realized my reaction,

00:35:28.501 --> 00:35:30.082
anticipated it, apparently,

00:35:30.083 --> 00:35:33.500
and told me,
\"Look, this is not a matter

00:35:33.501 --> 00:35:37.291
\"of weighing whether
they deserve it or not.

00:35:37.292 --> 00:35:42.082
\"This is a way
of cutting myself loose.

00:35:42.083 --> 00:35:46.917
\"If I give in
into being pummeled and pummeled

00:35:46.918 --> 00:35:48.500
\"over and over again,

00:35:48.501 --> 00:35:50.082
\"it kills me.

00:35:50.083 --> 00:35:52.583
\"Step by step,
it keeps killing me,

00:35:52.584 --> 00:35:55.583
\"and these neighbors
are finishing off

00:35:55.584 --> 00:35:59.583
\"what the Nazis could not
have completed in 1945.

00:35:59.584 --> 00:36:03.998
\"If I want to move on,
to stay alive,

00:36:03.999 --> 00:36:05.958
\"to keep my sanity,

00:36:05.959 --> 00:36:10.500
\"I have to think for myself,

00:36:10.501 --> 00:36:14.082
\"\'It is perhaps
not only your personal fault.

00:36:14.083 --> 00:36:16.291
\"\'You may have been
raised that way.

00:36:16.292 --> 00:36:19.708
\"\'Maybe if I would have been
raised the way you were raised,

00:36:19.709 --> 00:36:21.708
\"\'I would think like you.

00:36:21.709 --> 00:36:25.249
\"\'Maybe whatever you
have been through in life,

00:36:25.250 --> 00:36:27.041
\"\'if I would have
been in your shoes,

00:36:27.042 --> 00:36:29.708
\"maybe I would be like you.\'

00:36:29.709 --> 00:36:36.917
\"Only if I tell myself,
I draw a line,

00:36:36.918 --> 00:36:40.791
\"whatever happened in the past
stays in the past.

00:36:40.792 --> 00:36:43.791
\"From now on, I look forward.

00:36:43.792 --> 00:36:47.333
I cannot manage
to hang on to my life.\"

00:36:47.334 --> 00:36:51.333
At that point, I realized
that forgiveness,

00:36:51.334 --> 00:36:55.625
however far it may reach
or may not reach,

00:36:55.626 --> 00:37:00.208
may not only be granted
out of graciousness,

00:37:00.209 --> 00:37:03.208
out of altruism,

00:37:03.209 --> 00:37:05.833
but perhaps,
at least to some degree,

00:37:05.834 --> 00:37:10.082
to sustain your own sanity,
to cut yourself free.

00:37:10.083 --> 00:37:12.998
I often think about this man

00:37:12.999 --> 00:37:16.708
and this one horrific encounter
with him

00:37:16.709 --> 00:37:19.291
when I hear others
talking about,

00:37:19.292 --> 00:37:25.999
\"Let\'s cut the slate clean
and move forward from here on.\"

00:37:30.751 --> 00:37:33.124
narrator: For many Germans
in the mid 1980s,

00:37:33.125 --> 00:37:36.998
40 years of dealing
with the Nazi past were enough.

00:37:36.999 --> 00:37:40.166
It was time to move on.

00:37:40.167 --> 00:37:44.166
But in 1985, a meeting
of two world leaders,

00:37:44.167 --> 00:37:47.791
President Ronald Reagan
and Chancellor Helmut Kohl,

00:37:47.792 --> 00:37:49.750
in a remote cemetery in Germany,

00:37:49.751 --> 00:37:50.958
threatened to shatter

00:37:50.959 --> 00:37:55.208
this fragile, incomplete
moral accounting.

00:37:55.209 --> 00:37:57.833
- It began with the intention

00:37:57.834 --> 00:38:01.208
of the leaders of both
Germany and Washington

00:38:01.209 --> 00:38:03.625
to observe the 40th anniversary

00:38:03.626 --> 00:38:07.291
of the end of World War II
in Europe.

00:38:07.292 --> 00:38:08.917
And on both sides
of the Atlantic,

00:38:08.918 --> 00:38:09.998
there was a lot of hope

00:38:09.999 --> 00:38:12.500
this would be
a time of celebrating

00:38:12.501 --> 00:38:15.291
or reconciliation
between the countries.

00:38:15.292 --> 00:38:19.500
And as a way
of symbolizing that,

00:38:19.501 --> 00:38:23.082
it was decided in Washington
and in Germany

00:38:23.083 --> 00:38:27.998
that the president would visit
the Bitburg cemetery

00:38:27.999 --> 00:38:31.666
as a way of honoring
the German war dead

00:38:31.667 --> 00:38:36.792
and also symbolizing that
this now was in the past.

00:38:38.125 --> 00:38:40.750
- It turned out
that there were in fact

00:38:40.751 --> 00:38:42.750
among the German war dead

00:38:42.751 --> 00:38:44.750
Waffen-SS troops,

00:38:44.751 --> 00:38:47.166
and Reagan\'s going there,

00:38:47.167 --> 00:38:50.166
since it was partly
an act of reconciliation

00:38:50.167 --> 00:38:52.998
and, by implication,
forgiveness,

00:38:52.999 --> 00:38:57.458
would also forgive,
symbolically, the SS.

00:38:57.459 --> 00:39:00.998
- These were absolutely
the killer troops of Hitler,

00:39:00.999 --> 00:39:02.998
I mean, as a general idea,

00:39:02.999 --> 00:39:05.998
highly responsible
for the Holocaust.

00:39:05.999 --> 00:39:07.998
- When we learned of this,

00:39:07.999 --> 00:39:10.541
I think everyone in
the administration was shocked,

00:39:10.542 --> 00:39:12.541
and we all assumed
that the plans would change

00:39:12.542 --> 00:39:15.333
and that Reagan
would change his mind.

00:39:15.334 --> 00:39:17.041
That didn\'t happen, however.

00:39:17.042 --> 00:39:19.249
Reagan stuck to his guns,

00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:21.249
and he did not change his mind,

00:39:21.250 --> 00:39:24.249
despite a firestorm
of controversy.

00:39:24.250 --> 00:39:25.998
- President Reagan
has spent another day

00:39:25.999 --> 00:39:28.458
defending his plan to visit
the German military cemetery

00:39:28.459 --> 00:39:30.166
at Bitburg next weekend.

00:39:30.167 --> 00:39:31.998
There has been
more pressure from Congress

00:39:31.999 --> 00:39:32.999
to cancel his visit

00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:34.999
because there are soldiers
buried there

00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:36.666
who belong to the SS.

00:39:36.667 --> 00:39:40.041
- I think Reagan
was working the idea

00:39:40.042 --> 00:39:44.875
that there has to be
some statute of limitation

00:39:44.876 --> 00:39:49.249
on a demand for never forgetting

00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:51.249
and always remembering

00:39:51.250 --> 00:39:53.998
and always dwelling
upon the trauma,

00:39:53.999 --> 00:39:59.291
that the American briskness
rejects and says, you know,

00:39:59.292 --> 00:40:01.917
Scarlett O\'Hara,
\"Tomorrow is another day,\"

00:40:01.918 --> 00:40:03.124
you know?

00:40:03.125 --> 00:40:05.124
And that\'s what...
Reagan was Scarlett O\'Hara.

00:40:05.125 --> 00:40:07.333
- If forgiveness
was being talked about

00:40:07.334 --> 00:40:12.124
and enacted at Bitburg,
it was premature.

00:40:12.125 --> 00:40:14.333
There\'s such a thing
as forgiveness too soon,

00:40:14.334 --> 00:40:15.958
also forgiveness too late,

00:40:15.959 --> 00:40:18.958
but in this case,
it was too soon,

00:40:18.959 --> 00:40:20.750
superficially enacted

00:40:20.751 --> 00:40:22.998
and superficially talked about,

00:40:22.999 --> 00:40:25.917
as when Mr. Reagan
smoothed over the difference

00:40:25.918 --> 00:40:28.917
between the Holocaust victims

00:40:28.918 --> 00:40:33.416
and the victims who were
draftees into the German army.

00:40:33.417 --> 00:40:35.998
- I think that
there is nothing wrong

00:40:35.999 --> 00:40:38.416
with visiting that cemetery

00:40:38.417 --> 00:40:41.999
where those young men
are victims of Nazism also,

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.998
even though they were fighting
in the German uniform,

00:40:44.999 --> 00:40:46.208
drafted into service

00:40:46.209 --> 00:40:52.291
to carry out
the hateful wishes of the Nazis.

00:40:52.292 --> 00:40:53.917
They were victims,

00:40:53.918 --> 00:40:56.917
just as surely as the victims
in the concentration camps.

00:40:56.918 --> 00:41:01.291
- Well, that statement alone
led to a very big rejection

00:41:01.292 --> 00:41:03.291
on the part of a lot of people,

00:41:03.292 --> 00:41:04.917
not only in the Jewish community

00:41:04.918 --> 00:41:06.082
but others as well, who said,

00:41:06.083 --> 00:41:07.998
\"Look, there\'s a lot different

00:41:07.999 --> 00:41:10.958
\"from being drafted into an army

00:41:10.959 --> 00:41:15.541
and being sent off on a train
to Auschwitz to be gassed.\"

00:41:15.542 --> 00:41:16.958
- An embattled Ronald Reagan

00:41:16.959 --> 00:41:18.541
dug in his heels today
over Bitburg

00:41:18.542 --> 00:41:20.541
with an note
of stubborn determination.

00:41:20.542 --> 00:41:23.333
- Will it ruin the summit,
the controversy over Bitburg?

00:41:23.334 --> 00:41:24.334
- No.

00:41:24.335 --> 00:41:25.998
- Are you still
going to go, sir?

00:41:25.999 --> 00:41:27.998
- Yes.

00:41:27.999 --> 00:41:30.708
- Almost everybody
except Ronald Reagan

00:41:30.709 --> 00:41:32.500
thought that Ronald Reagan
was wrong

00:41:32.501 --> 00:41:35.082
not to pull out
of that ceremony.

00:41:35.083 --> 00:41:39.458
Many of his
most stalwart supporters

00:41:39.459 --> 00:41:43.875
visited him in the White House,
trying to change his mind,

00:41:43.876 --> 00:41:46.249
and when I say \"everybody,\"
that included me.

00:41:46.250 --> 00:41:47.833
In the beginning, I was...

00:41:47.834 --> 00:41:49.208
I mean, I think
I had the reaction

00:41:49.209 --> 00:41:50.998
that almost everyone else did,

00:41:50.999 --> 00:41:54.082
which was shock.

00:41:54.083 --> 00:41:58.082
And the more he stuck
to his guns, however,

00:41:58.083 --> 00:42:02.917
which seemed at first, to me,
just perversely stubborn,

00:42:02.918 --> 00:42:04.998
but the more I would listen
to what he was saying,

00:42:04.999 --> 00:42:06.208
the more I began to understand

00:42:06.209 --> 00:42:07.998
what he was talking about,

00:42:07.999 --> 00:42:10.998
which was forgiveness.

00:42:10.999 --> 00:42:13.999
He would talk about
the importance of reconciling

00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.998
after 40 years,

00:42:15.999 --> 00:42:18.208
that it was really time.

00:42:18.209 --> 00:42:21.416
He was talking about this
incredible burden of guilt

00:42:21.417 --> 00:42:24.833
that he felt was being
imposed on these people,

00:42:24.834 --> 00:42:27.208
especially when
they had rebuilt their country

00:42:27.209 --> 00:42:29.082
as a democratic country.

00:42:29.083 --> 00:42:31.374
They had a been a stalwart ally

00:42:31.375 --> 00:42:34.998
in the fight against
Soviet totalitarianism,

00:42:34.999 --> 00:42:37.998
and they were really on
the front lines of the Cold War,

00:42:37.999 --> 00:42:39.374
and this is where the sort of

00:42:39.375 --> 00:42:45.374
moral or spiritual issue
of forgiveness gets...

00:42:45.375 --> 00:42:47.998
Intersects
with the geopolitical issue.

00:42:47.999 --> 00:42:50.500
[orchestral fanfare playing]

00:42:50.501 --> 00:42:51.998
narrator:
President Ronald Reagan

00:42:51.999 --> 00:42:53.708
arrived in Germany in April

00:42:53.709 --> 00:42:58.041
and was greeted by his host,
Chancellor Helmut Kohl.

00:42:58.042 --> 00:42:59.666
Their first stop

00:42:59.667 --> 00:43:02.458
would be the concentration camp
Bergen-Belsen,

00:43:02.459 --> 00:43:04.998
a few hours outside Bitburg.

00:43:04.999 --> 00:43:07.791
Demonstrators greeted them,

00:43:07.792 --> 00:43:09.583
among them American Jews

00:43:09.584 --> 00:43:13.791
who were survivors
of the Holocaust.

00:43:13.792 --> 00:43:15.833
- Forgiveness can only be given

00:43:15.834 --> 00:43:18.416
from those who were victims
themselves

00:43:18.417 --> 00:43:20.208
and actually to those who were

00:43:20.209 --> 00:43:22.917
perpetrators and murderers
themselves.

00:43:22.918 --> 00:43:24.500
I mean, who authorized...

00:43:24.501 --> 00:43:26.500
Who gave the legal
power of attorney

00:43:26.501 --> 00:43:27.998
to either
President Ronald Reagan

00:43:27.999 --> 00:43:30.998
or on the other side,
Chancellor Helmut Kohl?

00:43:30.999 --> 00:43:34.875
- Being sentimental
rather than realistic

00:43:34.876 --> 00:43:37.958
was the accusation
that many leveled

00:43:37.959 --> 00:43:40.998
against Mr. Reagan\'s handling
of this whole event.

00:43:40.999 --> 00:43:47.750
That was not a very profound
appropriation of memory,

00:43:47.751 --> 00:43:50.333
of understanding of the past,

00:43:50.334 --> 00:43:54.833
or of the cost
of getting over the past.

00:43:54.834 --> 00:43:57.625
Germany was still
in the middle of a process

00:43:57.626 --> 00:44:00.998
that needed time
for much more development.

00:44:00.999 --> 00:44:03.999
In that very month of April,

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:08.208
the veterans of the SS
were holding a reunion,

00:44:08.209 --> 00:44:11.625
and some of them
were quoted as saying,

00:44:11.626 --> 00:44:15.708
\"Well, we never committed
any war crimes.\"

00:44:15.709 --> 00:44:20.082
There were a lot of Germans
alive from World War II

00:44:20.083 --> 00:44:22.082
who had not yet come to believe

00:44:22.083 --> 00:44:23.917
they had done
anything much wrong,

00:44:23.918 --> 00:44:27.083
even members of the SS.

00:44:30.918 --> 00:44:33.500
- Passau, my hometown,

00:44:33.501 --> 00:44:36.998
was the cradle
of National Socialism.

00:44:36.999 --> 00:44:39.708
When Ronald Reagan came,

00:44:39.709 --> 00:44:43.708
he meant probably
very well that, you know,

00:44:43.709 --> 00:44:46.082
finally, you should be forgiven.

00:44:46.083 --> 00:44:50.249
Finally, you know,
we discard this messy past.

00:44:50.250 --> 00:44:52.333
It shouldn\'t stand between us
any longer.

00:44:52.334 --> 00:44:55.998
What it really did
in many of these cases,

00:44:55.999 --> 00:45:02.124
unfortunately,
is embolden those attitudes,

00:45:02.125 --> 00:45:07.875
embolden old Nazis
and new Nazis alike

00:45:07.876 --> 00:45:11.958
to hold their gatherings,
to spread their old ideology.

00:45:11.959 --> 00:45:15.291
Passau, my hometown,
hosted, year after year,

00:45:15.292 --> 00:45:18.249
Europe\'s largest meetings
of Nazis,

00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:20.124
the old ones
and the new ones alike.

00:45:20.125 --> 00:45:23.750
I cannot imagine
that Ronald Reagan

00:45:23.751 --> 00:45:25.998
envisioned these images,

00:45:25.999 --> 00:45:30.333
you know, thousands of Nazis
marching through a town,

00:45:30.334 --> 00:45:34.708
flooding an entire city.

00:45:34.709 --> 00:45:37.291
Our bakers were baking pretzels

00:45:37.292 --> 00:45:40.082
in the shape of swastika
that size.

00:45:40.083 --> 00:45:43.708
So when you were walking through
the inner city of Passau

00:45:43.709 --> 00:45:44.917
at that time,

00:45:44.918 --> 00:45:47.666
you could see thousands
of people marching,

00:45:47.667 --> 00:45:50.791
greeting with the forbidden
\"Heil Hitler\" salute,

00:45:50.792 --> 00:45:53.998
and with swastika pretzels
in front of their chest,

00:45:53.999 --> 00:45:55.500
over their suits.

00:45:55.501 --> 00:45:59.917
These people were bragging
out in the open

00:45:59.918 --> 00:46:02.291
about the crimes
they had committed.

00:46:02.292 --> 00:46:05.166
There was no sense of remorse.

00:46:05.167 --> 00:46:08.791
[mournful trumpet solo]

00:46:08.792 --> 00:46:11.374
- Bitburg was a necessary grief

00:46:11.375 --> 00:46:17.374
because it showed
how many people

00:46:17.375 --> 00:46:20.791
were hungering for
an honest facing of the past

00:46:20.792 --> 00:46:25.998
and how much benefit
there would be

00:46:25.999 --> 00:46:28.998
to any person or society

00:46:28.999 --> 00:46:30.999
which really faces that past

00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:35.833
rather than
gently skipping over it.

00:46:35.834 --> 00:46:39.998
At the heart of that situation
was the question

00:46:39.999 --> 00:46:43.998
of what the acts
of a political leader mean

00:46:43.999 --> 00:46:48.625
in terms of the past
and the future,

00:46:48.626 --> 00:46:52.583
especially as regards
the evils of the past.

00:46:52.584 --> 00:46:54.998
Have we stared
at that evil enough

00:46:54.999 --> 00:46:57.666
to know what it is
and said what it is

00:46:57.667 --> 00:47:01.998
and refused in any way
to excuse it?

00:47:01.999 --> 00:47:03.999
One of the great important
things about forgiveness is,

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.625
it\'s not an excuse.

00:47:05.626 --> 00:47:07.998
Forgiveness involves
the facing of an evil

00:47:07.999 --> 00:47:11.833
and then asking whether or not
out of the facing of it

00:47:11.834 --> 00:47:13.998
some reconciliation
is still possible.

00:47:13.999 --> 00:47:17.998
[man speaking German]

00:47:17.999 --> 00:47:19.791
narrator:
And West Germany\'s president,

00:47:19.792 --> 00:47:21.374
Richard von Weizsäcker,

00:47:21.375 --> 00:47:24.208
was acutely aware that people
throughout the world

00:47:24.209 --> 00:47:26.416
weren\'t sure whether Germany
was ready

00:47:26.417 --> 00:47:29.666
to face and to repent
of its past,

00:47:29.667 --> 00:47:33.041
and Bitburg
only intensified their fears.

00:47:33.042 --> 00:47:34.998
So President Von Weizsäcker

00:47:34.999 --> 00:47:39.458
decided to speak
to and for the nation.

00:47:39.459 --> 00:47:45.041
- It was a long speech
composed mostly of a catalog

00:47:45.042 --> 00:47:49.249
in exquisite
and agonizing detail

00:47:49.250 --> 00:47:53.333
of the specific crimes
of the Nazi era.

00:47:53.334 --> 00:47:58.249
It was a catalog of crimes
almost without precedent

00:47:58.250 --> 00:48:01.041
in any speech
given by any politician

00:48:01.042 --> 00:48:02.791
that I know anything about.

00:48:02.792 --> 00:48:05.792
- [speaking German]

00:48:08.834 --> 00:48:12.208
\"This is the past
that we must get over.

00:48:12.209 --> 00:48:15.998
\"This is the past that some
of us help put into practice.

00:48:15.999 --> 00:48:18.249
\"I, as a member
of the Wehrmacht,

00:48:18.250 --> 00:48:21.791
\"the rest of us,
some of just us as bystanders

00:48:21.792 --> 00:48:24.998
\"to an evil that was going on
that we knew all about,

00:48:24.999 --> 00:48:27.625
but we didn\'t do anything
about it.\"

00:48:27.626 --> 00:48:30.625
As example of repentance
in politics,

00:48:30.626 --> 00:48:35.998
this speech
is almost without equal.

00:48:35.999 --> 00:48:40.625
There is not a word about
forgiveness in that speech.

00:48:40.626 --> 00:48:42.208
What was so great about it was,

00:48:42.209 --> 00:48:45.998
it at least nailed down
public repentance,

00:48:45.999 --> 00:48:48.998
which at least opens a door

00:48:48.999 --> 00:48:52.541
to the possibility
of public forgiveness.

00:48:52.542 --> 00:48:54.917
Narrator: The dam burst.

00:48:54.918 --> 00:48:58.041
There was a flood of articles,
books, films

00:48:58.042 --> 00:49:00.041
about the Holocaust.

00:49:00.042 --> 00:49:02.666
There were debates
about the Hitler years.

00:49:02.667 --> 00:49:04.875
Were they a temporary aberration

00:49:04.876 --> 00:49:09.291
or a catastrophe
with deep roots in German life?

00:49:09.292 --> 00:49:12.958
There were youth exchanges
between Germany and Israel,

00:49:12.959 --> 00:49:16.291
obligatory day visits
to concentration camp sites.

00:49:16.292 --> 00:49:20.082
German cities
invited survivors to return.

00:49:20.083 --> 00:49:24.291
And yet some myths are
especially hard to relinquish.

00:49:24.292 --> 00:49:27.082
In 1999, a museum exhibition

00:49:27.083 --> 00:49:30.708
exploring war crimes committed
by the ordinary German soldier

00:49:30.709 --> 00:49:34.082
traveled throughout Germany.

00:49:34.083 --> 00:49:35.500
Wherever it went,

00:49:35.501 --> 00:49:39.291
it generated massive protests
and huge audiences.

00:49:39.292 --> 00:49:41.917
[whistles blowing,
people shouting]

00:49:41.918 --> 00:49:44.291
[glass shatters]

00:49:44.292 --> 00:49:46.500
- It wasn\'t just Hitler
and the SS.

00:49:46.501 --> 00:49:49.917
It was not
only a few major culprits.

00:49:49.918 --> 00:49:53.291
It was the vast majority
of the soldiers

00:49:53.292 --> 00:49:56.708
who witnessed
or participated in crimes.

00:49:56.709 --> 00:49:59.917
This was something
families had at home

00:49:59.918 --> 00:50:01.998
in their family photo albums.

00:50:01.999 --> 00:50:03.583
Daddy in uniform.

00:50:03.584 --> 00:50:04.958
Daddy with a gun.

00:50:04.959 --> 00:50:06.750
Daddy with corpses.

00:50:06.751 --> 00:50:09.166
This was nothing unusual.

00:50:09.167 --> 00:50:12.583
It shattered this myth

00:50:12.584 --> 00:50:17.583
that only very few
had become personally guilty

00:50:17.584 --> 00:50:21.374
and the rest was ignorant,
was innocent.

00:50:21.375 --> 00:50:25.082
Narrator:
It is the rare country

00:50:25.083 --> 00:50:29.958
that builds memorials
to its worst atrocities.

00:50:29.959 --> 00:50:33.541
Yet the landscape of Germany
is filled with libraries,

00:50:33.542 --> 00:50:36.249
museums, monuments, plaques

00:50:36.250 --> 00:50:38.500
dedicated to the Holocaust,

00:50:38.501 --> 00:50:42.291
testimonials
to their civic shame.

00:50:42.292 --> 00:50:44.998
- Although Germans
are very adamant

00:50:44.999 --> 00:50:48.291
about saying
there is no collective guilt,

00:50:48.292 --> 00:50:53.583
and, yeah,
there is a point to it,

00:50:53.584 --> 00:50:55.583
but I do think,

00:50:55.584 --> 00:50:57.998
in spite of what they say,

00:50:57.999 --> 00:51:00.998
their hearts do tell them
something else, you know,

00:51:00.999 --> 00:51:03.998
and I think there is a...

00:51:03.999 --> 00:51:07.124
There is a little bit
of a dark cloud

00:51:07.125 --> 00:51:09.124
still over all of us,

00:51:09.125 --> 00:51:11.999
and I don\'t know
when that will be lifted.

00:51:17.584 --> 00:51:18.999
Narrator:
Throughout Germany,

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:21.625
Jews and Christians
come together

00:51:21.626 --> 00:51:24.998
in groups
or in informal encounters,

00:51:24.999 --> 00:51:32.416
trying to confront these fears
and the divide between them.

00:51:32.417 --> 00:51:35.625
- Nobody said to me,
\"So herewith, I forgive you.\"

00:51:35.626 --> 00:51:36.917
No.

00:51:36.918 --> 00:51:42.917
But that it was possible
to move towards each other

00:51:42.918 --> 00:51:44.291
and live in the middle,

00:51:44.292 --> 00:51:48.708
I always thought, \"Will we ever,
Jewish people and me,

00:51:48.709 --> 00:51:51.500
\"overcome, I mean,

00:51:51.501 --> 00:51:55.374
the millions of dead bodies
between us?\"

00:51:55.375 --> 00:51:59.166
You know, it\'s not possible.

00:51:59.167 --> 00:52:00.583
You know, it\'s so overwhelming.

00:52:00.584 --> 00:52:01.833
It\'s so big.

00:52:01.834 --> 00:52:05.625
And I think, in a way,
yes, it was possible,

00:52:05.626 --> 00:52:07.666
definitely, yes.

00:52:07.667 --> 00:52:11.666
- Most of my extended family
was murdered,

00:52:11.667 --> 00:52:16.458
was gassed in Poland.

00:52:16.459 --> 00:52:21.998
Just saying, \"I forgive\"
or, \"It\'s okay\"

00:52:21.999 --> 00:52:25.249
or, \"I\'ve gotten past it,\"

00:52:25.250 --> 00:52:30.998
might be at times a lie.

00:52:30.999 --> 00:52:36.791
It\'s clearly a theme
that we have to wrestle with,

00:52:36.792 --> 00:52:39.374
and there are no answers
to this.

00:52:39.375 --> 00:52:43.374
And everybody
has his or her own approach

00:52:43.375 --> 00:52:50.374
to how to resolve these
extremely painful relationships

00:52:50.375 --> 00:52:56.458
with those who have harmed us
or harmed our people,

00:52:56.459 --> 00:52:59.249
harmed our families,
harmed our civilizations,

00:52:59.250 --> 00:53:04.249
harmed our interests,
harmed our children,

00:53:04.250 --> 00:53:08.998
harmed our parents,
harmed our uncles, our aunts.

00:53:08.999 --> 00:53:11.458
And we all have to do this

00:53:11.459 --> 00:53:13.041
not only in a group fashion

00:53:13.042 --> 00:53:15.249
but in a personal fashion.

00:53:15.250 --> 00:53:18.458
And sometimes,
we can genuinely forgive.

00:53:18.459 --> 00:53:20.666
And certainly, as time passes,

00:53:20.667 --> 00:53:26.666
most of us have less of a need
to think about it,

00:53:26.667 --> 00:53:29.041
to obsess about it,

00:53:29.042 --> 00:53:33.041
to think about the harm,

00:53:33.042 --> 00:53:34.875
to feel the hurt.

00:53:34.876 --> 00:53:36.291
We don\'t feel the hurt.

00:53:36.292 --> 00:53:37.500
We move away.

00:53:37.501 --> 00:53:39.917
Time does do that.

00:53:39.918 --> 00:53:44.291
But it doesn\'t necessarily
take it all away.

00:53:44.292 --> 00:53:45.708
One of the hopes

00:53:45.709 --> 00:53:49.917
is that forgiveness
short-circuits the process,

00:53:49.918 --> 00:53:51.500
makes it shorter,

00:53:51.501 --> 00:53:55.166
makes it possible to do this
in less time.

00:53:55.167 --> 00:53:57.374
Maybe sometimes it does,

00:53:57.375 --> 00:54:00.959
and maybe sometimes
we\'re only fooling ourselves.

00:54:05.959 --> 00:54:06.998
Narrator: Not only have

00:54:06.999 --> 00:54:08.666
Germans and Jews
moved toward each other,

00:54:08.667 --> 00:54:13.249
but so have members of families
torn apart by the war.

00:54:13.250 --> 00:54:16.458
Such reconciliation is rare,

00:54:16.459 --> 00:54:20.249
sometimes requiring a lifetime.

00:54:20.250 --> 00:54:22.998
- My whole life, I was engaged

00:54:22.999 --> 00:54:28.998
to explain this political side
of my father,

00:54:28.999 --> 00:54:30.998
and I forgot the other side,

00:54:30.999 --> 00:54:33.998
that my father has two parts:

00:54:33.999 --> 00:54:36.041
the political part,

00:54:36.042 --> 00:54:38.667
but there was also the father.

00:54:41.042 --> 00:54:42.666
The whole life, we had conflict.

00:54:42.667 --> 00:54:43.998
We had debate.

00:54:43.999 --> 00:54:47.625
I couldn\'t forgive him
with all these battles,

00:54:47.626 --> 00:54:48.833
with this offensive.

00:54:48.834 --> 00:54:49.958
I couldn\'t forgive him

00:54:49.959 --> 00:54:51.833
without to see
there\'s also the father

00:54:51.834 --> 00:54:54.501
behind this old Nazi.

00:54:57.667 --> 00:55:02.041
It\'s an amazing story.

00:55:02.042 --> 00:55:04.998
I could dialogue
with my father first

00:55:04.999 --> 00:55:11.041
when he was... he was
in this case of dementia.

00:55:11.042 --> 00:55:14.249
When he became a child,

00:55:14.250 --> 00:55:18.458
he became... from his brain,
he became a child.

00:55:18.459 --> 00:55:22.249
And then
it was possible for me...

00:55:22.250 --> 00:55:25.458
I could forgive him.

00:55:25.459 --> 00:55:26.459
I could forgive him.

00:55:26.460 --> 00:55:28.458
I could make my peace with him,

00:55:28.459 --> 00:55:35.458
and I was the person
who was present when he died.

00:55:35.459 --> 00:55:36.998
I was holding his hand,

00:55:36.999 --> 00:55:39.625
and it was
a very peaceful situation,

00:55:39.626 --> 00:55:41.917
this Nazi,

00:55:41.918 --> 00:55:44.917
because I acknowledged
at that moment

00:55:44.918 --> 00:55:49.291
that he was...
That he was interested

00:55:49.292 --> 00:55:52.166
in what happened with his son.

00:55:52.167 --> 00:55:54.583
That was a father and the son
relation.

00:55:54.584 --> 00:56:01.833
It was not the Nazi and
the anti-Nazi generation level.

00:56:01.834 --> 00:56:03.625
It was a miracle.

00:56:03.626 --> 00:56:05.998
For me, it was like a miracle.

00:56:05.999 --> 00:56:09.625
I\'m not religious, as I said,
but it was a miracle.

00:56:09.626 --> 00:56:14.998
And then I saw him,
this weak man,

00:56:14.999 --> 00:56:17.625
this former very strong
and now weak,

00:56:17.626 --> 00:56:20.208
and I saw him

00:56:20.209 --> 00:56:26.998
when he came nearer and nearer
to this moment to go.

00:56:26.999 --> 00:56:30.041
And then the sentence
lose all angriness,

00:56:30.042 --> 00:56:35.666
lose all memories
of our attacks.

00:56:35.667 --> 00:56:39.541
It becomes
only the question of a father.

00:56:39.542 --> 00:56:41.333
So I saw him and this question

00:56:41.334 --> 00:56:43.333
and then, boom.

00:56:43.334 --> 00:56:46.751
And that was
a very strong moment.

00:56:57.999 --> 00:56:59.875
Narrator:
Germany has set an example

00:56:59.876 --> 00:57:04.541
of what it means to collectively
repent of an evil past.

00:57:04.542 --> 00:57:07.333
By doing so,
it has planted its feet

00:57:07.334 --> 00:57:10.958
firmly on the road
to reconciliation.

00:57:10.959 --> 00:57:13.333
It is a process
that nations of the world,

00:57:13.334 --> 00:57:14.958
including our own,

00:57:14.959 --> 00:57:17.124
who have their own crimes
to confess,

00:57:17.125 --> 00:57:20.334
could appreciate and learn from.

00:57:22.918 --> 00:57:27.291
In Rwanda, the blood
of their genocide is barely dry.

00:57:27.292 --> 00:57:30.583
Unlike Germany, whose Jews
were either killed or fled,

00:57:30.584 --> 00:57:33.998
in Rwanda, the killers
and the survivors

00:57:33.999 --> 00:57:37.374
live side by side.

00:57:37.375 --> 00:57:41.583
The issues of reconciliation
and forgiveness are urgent,

00:57:41.584 --> 00:57:44.166
difficult beyond comprehension,

00:57:44.167 --> 00:57:47.167
and the outcome unclear.

00:57:55.375 --> 00:57:57.958
On April 6, 1994,

00:57:57.959 --> 00:58:01.750
the president of Rwanda\'s plane
was shot down,

00:58:01.751 --> 00:58:03.750
igniting decades
of ethnic tension

00:58:03.751 --> 00:58:06.291
in the wake of colonial rule.

00:58:06.292 --> 00:58:08.082
The assassination
of the president

00:58:08.083 --> 00:58:10.917
was used as a pretext
by Hutu extremists

00:58:10.918 --> 00:58:13.208
to secure their power.

00:58:13.209 --> 00:58:15.998
Their plans had long been ready.

00:58:15.999 --> 00:58:17.999
All Tutsis were targeted

00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:21.833
along with opposition
Hutu groups.

00:58:21.834 --> 00:58:24.416
Within hours,
the borders were closed

00:58:24.417 --> 00:58:26.291
and the killings began.

00:58:26.292 --> 00:58:28.541
In the next 100 days,

00:58:28.542 --> 00:58:32.958
approximately 1 million Tutsis
were massacred.

00:58:32.959 --> 00:58:35.124
Moderate Hutus
who tried to save them

00:58:35.125 --> 00:58:38.166
were killed as well.

00:58:38.167 --> 00:58:40.998
Those who survived the genocide

00:58:40.999 --> 00:58:46.834
describe that time
as beyond human comprehension.

00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:50.999
- My mother was killed.

00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:55.041
She was drowned,
because we lived near the river.

00:58:55.042 --> 00:58:58.998
My uncle and my cousins,

00:58:58.999 --> 00:59:03.416
they were all
killed with machetes.

00:59:03.417 --> 00:59:07.999
Some of them
were killed in churches.

00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:10.999
- Holy Week, the most holy week
of the Christian calendar,

00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:12.833
was when the killing started

00:59:12.834 --> 00:59:15.417
in one of the most Christian
countries in the world.

00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:21.833
The priests and nuns
and pastors and ministers,

00:59:21.834 --> 00:59:25.625
they were part
of this carnage of killing.

00:59:25.626 --> 00:59:30.999
We are kind of crucified
between the past and the future.

00:59:32.999 --> 00:59:35.541
- After genocide,
I was just alone,

00:59:35.542 --> 00:59:37.291
left on my own.

00:59:37.292 --> 00:59:40.291
And, no...

00:59:40.292 --> 00:59:43.917
Nothing that I knew before
was left for me.

00:59:43.918 --> 00:59:45.834
All my family was gone.

00:59:51.584 --> 00:59:55.166
- I remember standing
on the hill around my home,

00:59:55.167 --> 00:59:58.791
and I saw people chopping
somebody with a machete,

00:59:58.792 --> 01:00:00.291
killing the person.

01:00:00.292 --> 01:00:02.166
They are going to find me
in five minutes,

01:00:02.167 --> 01:00:05.374
and when they find me,
there is no mercy,

01:00:05.375 --> 01:00:07.208
and they\'re going kill me.

01:00:07.209 --> 01:00:08.625
- [speaking native language]

01:00:08.626 --> 01:00:09.998
male translator:
We took some

01:00:09.999 --> 01:00:11.999
down to the mining hole.

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.625
One businesswoman begged me.

01:00:14.626 --> 01:00:17.625
She didn\'t want to be killed
by a machete.

01:00:17.626 --> 01:00:20.625
And she gave me
28,000 francs to protect her

01:00:20.626 --> 01:00:25.833
from the people who wanted
to cut her into pieces.

01:00:25.834 --> 01:00:30.334
So I dropped her in the hole
while she was still alive.

01:00:32.083 --> 01:00:33.208
- You couldn\'t imagine

01:00:33.209 --> 01:00:35.416
that your neighbor
could come one day

01:00:35.417 --> 01:00:37.998
and start killing you,

01:00:37.999 --> 01:00:39.416
because we go
to the same schools,

01:00:39.417 --> 01:00:40.625
we go to the same churches,

01:00:40.626 --> 01:00:42.833
we live in the same village,

01:00:42.834 --> 01:00:44.208
and we speak the same language,

01:00:44.209 --> 01:00:46.626
and we have the same culture.

01:01:23.083 --> 01:01:26.500
- A million people died.

01:01:26.501 --> 01:01:29.501
Dead bodies were everywhere.

01:01:33.959 --> 01:01:36.124
Is this the end of the world?

01:01:36.125 --> 01:01:37.958
Am I dreaming?

01:01:37.959 --> 01:01:40.959
Is this a nightmare?

01:01:47.209 --> 01:01:51.208
- Many survivors are being asked

01:01:51.209 --> 01:01:55.082
to forgive the things
that are unforgivable.

01:01:55.083 --> 01:01:58.666
It\'s a burden.

01:01:58.667 --> 01:02:01.458
It\'s a burden.
It\'s heavy.

01:02:01.459 --> 01:02:07.292
It\'s sacrifice
but a sacrifice for the country.

01:02:12.999 --> 01:02:15.999
[women and children singing
in native language]

01:02:17.999 --> 01:02:19.998
- Every person we lost

01:02:19.999 --> 01:02:25.958
left behind a trauma
in the heart of somebody.

01:02:25.959 --> 01:02:29.124
Reconciliation is a must,

01:02:29.125 --> 01:02:32.333
not just an option.

01:02:32.334 --> 01:02:33.583
I often tell people

01:02:33.584 --> 01:02:35.791
that it\'s very easy
to rebuild a school.

01:02:35.792 --> 01:02:38.998
It\'s very easy
to rebuild a hospital,

01:02:38.999 --> 01:02:41.998
as long as you have enough money
to do it.

01:02:41.999 --> 01:02:44.583
But if you don\'t rebuild

01:02:44.584 --> 01:02:46.583
the hearts
and the relationships,

01:02:46.584 --> 01:02:47.998
then you\'re in trouble,

01:02:47.999 --> 01:02:52.249
because it\'s like a land mine
planted in that soil,

01:02:52.250 --> 01:02:54.458
and in the future,
it\'s going to be detonated,

01:02:54.459 --> 01:02:56.041
and you destroy again
those things.

01:02:56.042 --> 01:02:58.458
[artillery fires]

01:02:58.459 --> 01:02:59.750
narrator: The killings ended

01:02:59.751 --> 01:03:02.750
when Tutsi rebel forces
led by Paul Kagame

01:03:02.751 --> 01:03:05.958
entered Rwanda in June, 1994.

01:03:05.959 --> 01:03:07.791
They swept through the country

01:03:07.792 --> 01:03:10.791
and drove the former regime
from power.

01:03:10.792 --> 01:03:13.416
There were reports
that these Tutsi forces

01:03:13.417 --> 01:03:15.998
had committed revenge killings
against the Hutus

01:03:15.999 --> 01:03:17.999
in this bloody period.

01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:22.833
The country was in ruins.

01:03:22.834 --> 01:03:26.208
Those in power
fled or had been killed.

01:03:26.209 --> 01:03:27.999
In a country of 8 million,

01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:32.958
1 million were dead,
mainly Tutsis.

01:03:32.959 --> 01:03:35.958
3 million Rwandans
were living in refugee camps

01:03:35.959 --> 01:03:37.541
in neighboring countries,

01:03:37.542 --> 01:03:42.124
among them, many of
the Hutu perpetrators.

01:03:42.125 --> 01:03:44.958
Close to 2 million
were displaced

01:03:44.959 --> 01:03:46.333
within their own county.

01:03:46.334 --> 01:03:51.999
At most,
only 400,000 Tutsis survived.

01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:56.583
Slowly, people began
to return to their homes.

01:03:56.584 --> 01:03:59.166
Over the next 14 years,
the Tutsi-led government

01:03:59.167 --> 01:04:03.458
struggled to rebuild
the country.

01:04:03.459 --> 01:04:06.875
In 2003, Paul Kagame

01:04:06.876 --> 01:04:08.998
became Rwanda\'s
first elected president

01:04:08.999 --> 01:04:11.750
since the genocide.

01:04:11.751 --> 01:04:14.750
The international community
that had abandoned Rwanda

01:04:14.751 --> 01:04:16.458
during the genocide

01:04:16.459 --> 01:04:18.500
now sent human rights monitors

01:04:18.501 --> 01:04:21.708
and billions of dollars in aid.

01:04:21.709 --> 01:04:23.708
Buildings started to go up.

01:04:23.709 --> 01:04:25.583
Roads were being repaved.

01:04:25.584 --> 01:04:27.998
Tourists were returning
to the cities,

01:04:27.999 --> 01:04:29.583
though in the countryside,

01:04:29.584 --> 01:04:33.208
Rwandans remained
desperately poor.

01:04:33.209 --> 01:04:34.998
The government promotes

01:04:34.999 --> 01:04:37.833
reconciliation
throughout the country.

01:04:37.834 --> 01:04:40.249
But how deep does it go?

01:04:40.250 --> 01:04:44.041
Can there be reconciliation
without justice?

01:04:44.042 --> 01:04:47.249
And in the face
of so vast a crime,

01:04:47.250 --> 01:04:53.750
what does justice
and reconciliation mean?

01:04:53.751 --> 01:04:56.124
- Everybody who took part
in the killings

01:04:56.125 --> 01:04:57.998
has to be punished.

01:04:57.999 --> 01:04:59.998
The consequence was,

01:04:59.999 --> 01:05:05.541
we ended up with
150,000 people in jail.

01:05:05.542 --> 01:05:09.750
No prosecution.
No investigations.

01:05:09.751 --> 01:05:13.708
150,000 people in jail.

01:05:13.709 --> 01:05:16.291
Then slowly, the process shifted

01:05:16.292 --> 01:05:21.167
from justice to reconciliation.

01:05:22.999 --> 01:05:25.917
The government
put in place an organic law

01:05:25.918 --> 01:05:28.917
that said that
all people who will confess

01:05:28.918 --> 01:05:31.917
will get minimal penalty

01:05:31.918 --> 01:05:33.708
and will be released
from prison.

01:05:33.709 --> 01:05:36.500
That encouraged churches
and other people

01:05:36.501 --> 01:05:41.458
to go inside the prisons now
to preach repentance.

01:05:41.459 --> 01:05:44.249
- When we arrived in prisons
in Rwanda,

01:05:44.250 --> 01:05:47.666
some of them
didn\'t want to talk to us.

01:05:47.667 --> 01:05:50.917
Unrepentant, given the chance,
would do it again.

01:05:50.918 --> 01:05:53.791
We wanted to know how
they could kill so many people.

01:05:53.792 --> 01:05:55.166
How could you do that?

01:05:55.167 --> 01:05:56.998
How many did you kill?

01:05:56.999 --> 01:05:59.998
And how did you kill them
every day?

01:05:59.999 --> 01:06:02.041
Didn\'t you get tired?
Didn\'t you...

01:06:02.042 --> 01:06:03.875
And then I remember one...

01:06:03.876 --> 01:06:05.666
The first time one young guy...
We saw him.

01:06:05.667 --> 01:06:06.999
We\'ve seen him again.

01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:09.166
He said, \"Well, I don\'t know
how many people I killed.\"

01:06:09.167 --> 01:06:10.998
I said, \"What do you mean
you don\'t know?

01:06:10.999 --> 01:06:12.166
You have to know.\"

01:06:12.167 --> 01:06:13.998
He said, \"Well,
when you do that every day,

01:06:13.999 --> 01:06:15.166
you lose count.\"

01:06:15.167 --> 01:06:16.374
You just... it\'s just...

01:06:16.375 --> 01:06:18.166
And he used
the image of a hunter.

01:06:18.167 --> 01:06:19.583
He said, \"It\'s like hunting.

01:06:19.584 --> 01:06:20.998
\"You get up.
You hunt.

01:06:20.999 --> 01:06:22.374
\"You run after them.
You cut them.

01:06:22.375 --> 01:06:23.583
\"And then they drop,

01:06:23.584 --> 01:06:24.998
\"and then you run
to the next person,

01:06:24.999 --> 01:06:26.500
\"and you cut them too,
and they drop,

01:06:26.501 --> 01:06:27.998
\"and then you go
to the next person.

01:06:27.999 --> 01:06:29.416
So you don\'t stop and count.\"

01:06:29.417 --> 01:06:30.998
So it was startling to us.

01:06:30.999 --> 01:06:31.999
I said, \"What do you mean?\"

01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:33.998
He said, \"Well, the children
were the hardest

01:06:33.999 --> 01:06:35.833
\"because they usually
don\'t die right away,

01:06:35.834 --> 01:06:36.999
\"so you have to look
at their eyes.

01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:38.208
They have to look at you.\"

01:06:38.209 --> 01:06:42.625
And so that was hard.
That was hard.

01:06:42.626 --> 01:06:44.998
But some of them were desperate.

01:06:44.999 --> 01:06:50.208
They were aching to be cleansed
of this evil they had done.

01:06:50.209 --> 01:06:52.416
And they wanted to know,
\"Is it possible

01:06:52.417 --> 01:06:56.208
\"that I could really ever again
live with the people,

01:06:56.209 --> 01:06:58.666
the survivors of the families
that I killed?\"

01:06:58.667 --> 01:07:02.458
And so our role,
our job within Rwanda prison

01:07:02.459 --> 01:07:04.666
is spell out those steps.

01:07:04.667 --> 01:07:07.998
The process has to start
with admission:

01:07:07.999 --> 01:07:09.416
\"I participated in this thing,

01:07:09.417 --> 01:07:11.416
\"this horrendous,
horrific thing.

01:07:11.417 --> 01:07:12.998
\"I was part of it.

01:07:12.999 --> 01:07:14.416
\"I was there that day.

01:07:14.417 --> 01:07:16.541
I was there the next day.\"

01:07:16.542 --> 01:07:19.958
But we can\'t guarantee that
just because you say that,

01:07:19.959 --> 01:07:22.917
you\'re going to be forgiven.

01:07:22.918 --> 01:07:25.291
You may not be forgiven.

01:07:25.292 --> 01:07:26.708
You may never know.

01:07:26.709 --> 01:07:28.917
You may have to live with it
the rest of your life.

01:07:28.918 --> 01:07:30.125
And you don\'t know.

01:07:32.042 --> 01:07:34.875
Narrator: Tens of thousands
of prisoners were released

01:07:34.876 --> 01:07:36.666
and returned to their villages

01:07:36.667 --> 01:07:38.249
where they await their trials

01:07:38.250 --> 01:07:42.999
in traditional
village Gacaca courts.

01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:46.416
The government reached back
into Rwanda\'s past

01:07:46.417 --> 01:07:49.999
to revive and revise
these courts.

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:53.500
They are Rwanda\'s most ambitious
and innovative tool

01:07:53.501 --> 01:07:55.998
for reconciliation,

01:07:55.999 --> 01:07:59.958
a bold experiment
in restorative justice.

01:07:59.959 --> 01:08:02.998
- The model of Gacaca,
which is community-based,

01:08:02.999 --> 01:08:07.998
presumes that
there can be reconciliation

01:08:07.999 --> 01:08:10.998
at the individual level.

01:08:10.999 --> 01:08:13.583
And it presumes that people
can come forward

01:08:13.584 --> 01:08:15.998
and talk about what happened

01:08:15.999 --> 01:08:18.791
and point to their perpetrator
and say,

01:08:18.792 --> 01:08:23.416
\"This person was responsible
for these particular crimes.\"

01:08:23.417 --> 01:08:26.417
- [speaking native language]

01:08:38.083 --> 01:08:40.082
- But it is a very,
very important process

01:08:40.083 --> 01:08:42.917
to try at least
to find some way,

01:08:42.918 --> 01:08:46.333
when you have over 100,000
people that landed in jail

01:08:46.334 --> 01:08:47.998
and were accused of having

01:08:47.999 --> 01:08:49.666
taken direct part
in the genocide,

01:08:49.667 --> 01:08:51.458
how is it that you\'re
ever gonna try those

01:08:51.459 --> 01:08:53.998
through a normal court process?

01:08:53.999 --> 01:08:58.917
Narrator: Over a million people
participated,

01:08:58.918 --> 01:09:00.708
but problems also emerged.

01:09:00.709 --> 01:09:04.416
Hutus began to feel
that it was a one-sided justice.

01:09:04.417 --> 01:09:07.416
The Tutsi government
would not allow its own army

01:09:07.417 --> 01:09:08.999
to be tried in Gacaca

01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:12.208
for killing Hutus
after the genocide.

01:09:12.209 --> 01:09:14.416
And for the Tutsi survivors,

01:09:14.417 --> 01:09:18.542
the experience could
be difficult and dangerous.

01:09:53.792 --> 01:09:56.374
- Gacaca is another way
of a survivor

01:09:56.375 --> 01:09:58.625
being asked to do too much,

01:09:58.626 --> 01:10:02.541
because there\'s a law
that you have to attend Gacaca.

01:10:02.542 --> 01:10:05.998
Survivors are scared.

01:10:05.999 --> 01:10:08.666
They are scared of testifying,

01:10:08.667 --> 01:10:10.249
because there\'s a threat.

01:10:10.250 --> 01:10:15.124
There\'s... a lot of threat notes
are being sent to their houses.

01:10:15.125 --> 01:10:18.998
- You find the intimidation
going on.

01:10:18.999 --> 01:10:20.416
Survivors were booed,

01:10:20.417 --> 01:10:23.082
and they were beaten,

01:10:23.083 --> 01:10:26.998
and in extreme cases,
they were killed,

01:10:26.999 --> 01:10:30.917
but we are still hearing people
giving testimonies

01:10:30.918 --> 01:10:33.291
they had never dared to give.

01:10:33.292 --> 01:10:35.500
But the problem I see,

01:10:35.501 --> 01:10:38.082
I think there is
a missing element

01:10:38.083 --> 01:10:40.998
in the Gacaca courts.

01:10:40.999 --> 01:10:45.166
We simply utilize the Gacaca
as a judicial system,

01:10:45.167 --> 01:10:49.124
but we didn\'t use it
as a reconciliation process.

01:10:49.125 --> 01:10:54.208
In our traditional system
of Gacaca,

01:10:54.209 --> 01:10:57.625
apology was always due.

01:10:57.626 --> 01:11:01.208
And that apology
was always part of the process

01:11:01.209 --> 01:11:04.625
to cement the new relationship.

01:11:04.626 --> 01:11:06.583
And for me, at this moment,

01:11:06.584 --> 01:11:10.998
I believe and I hope
that one day,

01:11:10.999 --> 01:11:12.374
we\'ll get to that point.

01:11:12.375 --> 01:11:15.998
If we engage in the second step

01:11:15.999 --> 01:11:17.998
where we go from justice Gacaca

01:11:17.999 --> 01:11:19.750
to reconciliation Gacaca,

01:11:19.751 --> 01:11:22.291
where we sit together
in the community,

01:11:22.292 --> 01:11:27.998
and the people of integrity
on the Hutu side

01:11:27.999 --> 01:11:29.082
will stand up and say,

01:11:29.083 --> 01:11:33.166
\"We are so sorry
for what our group did.\"

01:11:33.167 --> 01:11:37.791
For me, that would be probably
the culmination

01:11:37.792 --> 01:11:40.374
of the whole process
of healing the nation

01:11:40.375 --> 01:11:43.791
in the Gacaca system.

01:11:43.792 --> 01:11:47.666
At this moment, we have peace,

01:11:47.667 --> 01:11:50.876
but we don\'t have
reconciliation.

01:11:54.083 --> 01:11:58.082
- The way to stop genocide
from happening again

01:11:58.083 --> 01:12:02.833
is to talk about it openly.

01:12:02.834 --> 01:12:09.541
That\'s why the memorials,
they are very important.

01:12:09.542 --> 01:12:14.708
- As a tool of remembering
the evil in its magnitude,

01:12:14.709 --> 01:12:18.166
you find a good number
of churches

01:12:18.167 --> 01:12:20.166
where people were killed

01:12:20.167 --> 01:12:22.998
have been turned
into genocide memorials

01:12:22.999 --> 01:12:26.041
to tell people that real people

01:12:26.042 --> 01:12:29.000
were killed in real places.

01:12:41.292 --> 01:12:44.998
[men singing in native language]

01:12:44.999 --> 01:12:47.708
Wherever you go,
you are going to find something

01:12:47.709 --> 01:12:49.541
that reminds you

01:12:49.542 --> 01:12:52.291
that reconciliation
is an essential here.

01:12:52.292 --> 01:12:54.082
You switch on your radio.

01:12:54.083 --> 01:12:57.166
You\'re going to hear
a song about reconciliation.

01:12:57.167 --> 01:13:01.541
You are going to hear a play
about reconciliation.

01:13:01.542 --> 01:13:03.999
- [speaking native language]

01:13:07.999 --> 01:13:10.166
narrator: The government
encourages national unity

01:13:10.167 --> 01:13:11.791
through its new flag,

01:13:11.792 --> 01:13:15.333
a new anthem,
and a new constitution.

01:13:15.334 --> 01:13:17.750
Identifying oneself
as Tutsi or Hutu

01:13:17.751 --> 01:13:20.124
is now officially discouraged.

01:13:20.125 --> 01:13:23.998
The mantra is that,
\"We are all Rwandans.\"

01:13:23.999 --> 01:13:27.541
The government also promotes
active reconciliation,

01:13:27.542 --> 01:13:29.708
bringing survivors
and perpetrators

01:13:29.709 --> 01:13:31.291
together in healing groups,

01:13:31.292 --> 01:13:32.708
peace villages,

01:13:32.709 --> 01:13:37.291
and in mass forgiveness
ceremonies in stadiums.

01:13:37.292 --> 01:13:38.708
At the same time,

01:13:38.709 --> 01:13:41.958
there are troubling signs
undermining these efforts.

01:13:41.959 --> 01:13:44.875
The government
is increasingly authoritarian.

01:13:44.876 --> 01:13:46.998
It punishes dissent,

01:13:46.999 --> 01:13:50.374
reserves positions of power
mainly for Tutsis,

01:13:50.375 --> 01:13:51.875
and does not publicly
acknowledge

01:13:51.876 --> 01:13:53.998
the suffering of Hutus

01:13:53.999 --> 01:13:57.542
who also died in the genocide.

01:14:00.459 --> 01:14:01.875
Ultimately, a government

01:14:01.876 --> 01:14:04.708
can promote reconciliation
at the national level,

01:14:04.709 --> 01:14:07.208
but it cannot legislate it.

01:14:07.209 --> 01:14:10.124
It happens between individuals.

01:14:10.125 --> 01:14:13.416
And in this overwhelmingly
Christian nation,

01:14:13.417 --> 01:14:16.998
reconciliation
is frequently guided by faith,

01:14:16.999 --> 01:14:19.708
a faith that survives
the failure

01:14:19.709 --> 01:14:21.917
of all their religious
institutions

01:14:21.918 --> 01:14:24.998
during the genocide.

01:14:24.999 --> 01:14:26.917
Until last year,

01:14:26.918 --> 01:14:29.374
these two men
were bitter enemies.

01:14:29.375 --> 01:14:32.374
- [speaking native language]

01:14:32.375 --> 01:14:34.998
translator: After the
presidential decree of 2003,

01:14:34.999 --> 01:14:37.583
I was released from prison.

01:14:37.584 --> 01:14:41.999
I got out with a hardened heart.

01:14:44.918 --> 01:14:47.291
But the essence
of me getting forgiveness

01:14:47.292 --> 01:14:52.998
was when we attended
the evangelical training.

01:14:52.999 --> 01:14:54.791
On the first day of the session,

01:14:54.792 --> 01:14:58.166
I looked out into the audience

01:14:58.167 --> 01:15:03.166
and saw relatives
of the families we had killed.

01:15:03.167 --> 01:15:06.374
I saw Celestin.

01:15:06.375 --> 01:15:09.998
He was the in-law
of the first family we killed.

01:15:09.999 --> 01:15:11.124
- [speaking native language]

01:15:11.125 --> 01:15:13.500
male translator: When I saw him,
I was traumatized.

01:15:13.501 --> 01:15:14.666
I started to question

01:15:14.667 --> 01:15:16.458
how that training
was going to help me,

01:15:16.459 --> 01:15:19.416
and I started to feel so bad.

01:15:19.417 --> 01:15:24.209
- On the third day,
everything turned around.

01:15:26.876 --> 01:15:30.459
The evangelical counselors
told us to stand up.

01:15:33.584 --> 01:15:37.374
But I went down on my knees
and said,

01:15:37.375 --> 01:15:38.998
\"Before I ask forgiveness

01:15:38.999 --> 01:15:44.374
\"on behalf of all my fellow
Hutus who killed Tutsis,

01:15:44.375 --> 01:15:49.625
I am going to ask
for forgiveness for myself.\"

01:15:49.626 --> 01:15:53.917
- He said all of that,
kneeling down, crying,

01:15:53.918 --> 01:15:58.917
and then, even we felt
we had to forgive him.

01:15:58.918 --> 01:16:02.917
We hated him.
We feared him.

01:16:02.918 --> 01:16:06.082
And we never wanted
to share anything with him.

01:16:06.083 --> 01:16:07.500
And yet we hugged each other

01:16:07.501 --> 01:16:09.708
in order to express
our forgiveness.

01:16:09.709 --> 01:16:16.708
- They came near me
and hugged me, saying,

01:16:16.709 --> 01:16:20.709
\"He that asks for forgiveness
should be forgiven.\"

01:16:24.167 --> 01:16:26.998
I felt like a new being.

01:16:26.999 --> 01:16:31.167
I felt I moved and had gone
to a different world.

01:16:34.083 --> 01:16:36.291
- After the training,
we reconciled,

01:16:36.292 --> 01:16:39.708
and we started to build
a new relationship.

01:16:39.709 --> 01:16:42.082
Today we are still
very good friends.

01:16:42.083 --> 01:16:43.500
When he got married,

01:16:43.501 --> 01:16:45.291
I participated
in the marriage ceremony

01:16:45.292 --> 01:16:50.583
and acted as his best man.

01:16:50.584 --> 01:16:52.998
Working together
was a normal thing

01:16:52.999 --> 01:16:55.500
after we forgave each other.

01:16:55.501 --> 01:16:59.583
When we do this, we really
get close to each other.

01:16:59.584 --> 01:17:01.998
It\'s another lesson taught
to the community members

01:17:01.999 --> 01:17:03.583
who come to believe
that these people

01:17:03.584 --> 01:17:07.792
have really forgiven each other
and have truly moved on.

01:17:14.999 --> 01:17:18.583
- When you are in the business
of healing a nation,

01:17:18.584 --> 01:17:20.750
one story or two stories
or three stories

01:17:20.751 --> 01:17:22.999
or a 1,000 stories
or 2,000 stories

01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:25.583
are not enough.

01:17:25.584 --> 01:17:27.833
It would be very naive
to believe

01:17:27.834 --> 01:17:30.208
all the wounds
are going to heal,

01:17:30.209 --> 01:17:34.998
so we are going
to drag the wounded behind us,

01:17:34.999 --> 01:17:36.458
like every army,

01:17:36.459 --> 01:17:38.998
but at least we\'ll be pulling
in the same direction.

01:17:38.999 --> 01:17:40.041
But I can\'t believe

01:17:40.042 --> 01:17:41.666
that everybody
is going to be healed,

01:17:41.667 --> 01:17:45.875
because I know people have been
wrecked beyond recovery,

01:17:45.876 --> 01:17:47.998
and we are going
to live with those.

01:17:47.999 --> 01:17:50.208
- Oh, God.

01:17:50.209 --> 01:17:52.500
How far can I go
to run away from genocide?

01:17:52.501 --> 01:17:54.124
I can\'t.

01:17:54.125 --> 01:17:56.998
It\'s something, you fly,
you fly with it.

01:17:56.999 --> 01:17:59.998
You eat, you eat with it.

01:17:59.999 --> 01:18:05.166
I remember, one day,
I passed through an area,

01:18:05.167 --> 01:18:07.458
and these three men...

01:18:07.459 --> 01:18:11.583
people were asked
to dig their own grave.

01:18:11.584 --> 01:18:13.374
And on the other side,
there was a woman

01:18:13.375 --> 01:18:14.998
who has just finished
being killed.

01:18:14.999 --> 01:18:16.583
She looked like
she was just killed

01:18:16.584 --> 01:18:18.583
probably half an hour ago,

01:18:18.584 --> 01:18:21.374
with arms chopped off.

01:18:21.375 --> 01:18:25.166
And can you tell me that

01:18:25.167 --> 01:18:27.416
that person
who was doing it then,

01:18:27.417 --> 01:18:29.416
if you forgive this person,

01:18:29.417 --> 01:18:33.625
what would that woman say to you
if she can speak to you?

01:18:33.626 --> 01:18:36.458
Yes, you forgive because
you still have your life

01:18:36.459 --> 01:18:38.998
and your arms and your legs,
and you\'re fine.

01:18:38.999 --> 01:18:40.458
How about me?

01:18:40.459 --> 01:18:42.249
And that\'s one thing I say.

01:18:42.250 --> 01:18:44.666
It\'s not that
I don\'t want to forgive,

01:18:44.667 --> 01:18:48.666
but how can I forgive
when those images

01:18:48.667 --> 01:18:50.666
are still asking me... \"No.\"

01:18:50.667 --> 01:18:52.082
They\'re stopping me.

01:18:52.083 --> 01:18:53.374
They\'re telling me, \"No.\"

01:18:53.375 --> 01:18:56.998
- There are times when
we sacrifice ourselves

01:18:56.999 --> 01:19:00.166
on the cross of memories,

01:19:00.167 --> 01:19:01.998
and you simply say,
\"I can\'t forgive.

01:19:01.999 --> 01:19:03.998
\"I prefer to live
with my ulcers.

01:19:03.999 --> 01:19:05.998
\"I prefer to live
with my sleepless nights.

01:19:05.999 --> 01:19:07.625
\"I prefer to live with my anger,

01:19:07.626 --> 01:19:08.998
\"despite the bad effects

01:19:08.999 --> 01:19:11.998
it\'s going to have on me
and my entourage.\"

01:19:11.999 --> 01:19:16.082
For the sake of memories,
I often say... wrong.

01:19:16.083 --> 01:19:20.917
You are not dead.

01:19:20.918 --> 01:19:27.208
Then let the dead sleep
and start living.

01:19:27.209 --> 01:19:30.833
And I remember,
one person asked me,

01:19:30.834 --> 01:19:35.208
\"Don\'t you think we are
desecrating the memories

01:19:35.209 --> 01:19:39.333
of our people who got killed
by forgiving?\"

01:19:39.334 --> 01:19:41.875
And I said, \"What do you prefer:

01:19:41.876 --> 01:19:47.541
to die twice
or to simply forgive and live?\"

01:19:47.542 --> 01:19:51.208
Again, it\'s a matter
of living with attention,

01:19:51.209 --> 01:19:54.998
living with this faithfulness
to the dead

01:19:54.999 --> 01:19:57.999
or simply faithfulness
to yourself and your life.

01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:00.417
It\'s a choice.

01:20:04.250 --> 01:20:08.750
Narrator: Choice is at the heart
of all our actions.

01:20:08.751 --> 01:20:11.124
For civil war and genocide
to take place,

01:20:11.125 --> 01:20:15.500
ultimately, it is the individual
who commits atrocities,

01:20:15.501 --> 01:20:18.291
horrors that stun the mind.

01:20:18.292 --> 01:20:19.708
They take us to the very limits

01:20:19.709 --> 01:20:23.374
of comprehension
and forgiveness.

01:20:23.375 --> 01:20:28.166
And yet in the resonant words
of John Paul II,

01:20:28.167 --> 01:20:30.998
forgiveness can purify memory.

01:20:30.999 --> 01:20:33.998
It can travel
through time and history,

01:20:33.999 --> 01:20:36.666
breathing life
into the killing fields,

01:20:36.667 --> 01:20:39.333
into the collective soul
of nations,

01:20:39.334 --> 01:20:44.958
into the lives
of its brutalized citizens.

01:20:44.959 --> 01:20:46.958
No less than any nation,

01:20:46.959 --> 01:20:48.998
the country
of an anguished heart

01:20:48.999 --> 01:20:53.998
also cries out to forgive
and to be forgiven.

01:20:53.999 --> 01:20:58.999
Personal betrayal
can cut as deeply as a machete.

01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.999
Forgiveness can offer hope

01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:04.209
to these intimate woundings
of the soul.

01:21:07.999 --> 01:21:10.541
So in the end,

01:21:10.542 --> 01:21:16.750
forgiveness begins and ends
with one person facing another,

01:21:16.751 --> 01:21:20.750
friends, strangers,

01:21:20.751 --> 01:21:23.541
a mother and a child,

01:21:23.542 --> 01:21:26.958
a father and a son,

01:21:26.959 --> 01:21:29.166
husband and wife.

01:21:29.167 --> 01:21:31.998
The decision to forgive or not,

01:21:31.999 --> 01:21:38.998
a choice at the heart
of our shared humanity.

01:21:38.999 --> 01:21:41.998
- We are made for relationships.

01:21:41.999 --> 01:21:43.998
Forgiveness emerges as the need

01:21:43.999 --> 01:21:47.041
to reestablish
a broken relationship

01:21:47.042 --> 01:21:50.458
without which we cannot live.

01:21:50.459 --> 01:21:53.124
The search for forgiveness

01:21:53.125 --> 01:21:56.541
is the search for a healing

01:21:56.542 --> 01:22:01.750
of an ache of the human heart.

01:22:01.751 --> 01:22:07.750
Narrator: It is the memory
of lost possibilities.

01:22:07.751 --> 01:22:13.541
It is the enormous presence
of absence.

01:22:13.542 --> 01:22:16.750
It is an ache
for what could have been

01:22:16.751 --> 01:22:21.333
and is no more.

01:22:21.334 --> 01:22:25.541
- In fact,
the religious notion of hell,

01:22:25.542 --> 01:22:27.541
what is it?

01:22:27.542 --> 01:22:30.333
Hell is absolute loneliness.

01:22:30.334 --> 01:22:33.958
It is the break
of all relationships.

01:22:33.959 --> 01:22:38.124
It means the incapacity
to establish a relationship

01:22:38.125 --> 01:22:42.124
or to have anyone establish
a relationship with you.

01:22:42.125 --> 01:22:44.541
It is what death is.

01:22:44.542 --> 01:22:46.750
It\'s nothingness.

01:22:46.751 --> 01:22:50.958
So the thirst for forgiveness
is that fundamental.

01:22:50.959 --> 01:22:55.999
It is an expression
of the fear of nothingness.

01:22:56.000 --> 01:22:58.998
The religions attempt
to deal with it,

01:22:58.999 --> 01:23:00.541
but this ache,

01:23:00.542 --> 01:23:02.374
this primordial ache,

01:23:02.375 --> 01:23:05.917
precedes all religions\'
expressions of it

01:23:05.918 --> 01:23:08.083
and ways of dealing with it.

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Forgiveness: A Time to Love and a Time to Hate (Part 2)

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